This Game is Boring

[OniDax]

33 minutes ago, Chamaeleo said:

I'm going to go with the majority and say that, while boring, "shoot, run to extract" is what the majority of players -want- to do.

I would personally love to PVP/Lunaro/Archwing, but these things don't have a high seat on dev priority list or a healthy playerbase because "shoot, run to extract" is what the majority of people whine about whenever any updates not centered on these things drop. 

While that sucks, taking risks that are not profitable to satisfy people that are bored is not something I would do very frequently if I ran this business, and if I did I would dev only after polling the community excessively to ensure it didnt ship to a dead playerbase that -says- they want something other than "shoot, run to extract" but are largely absent from any game mode that doesnt involve "shoot, run to extract." 

That's because 1) they want that because they've been conditioned to only care about the end-of-mission rewards, and 2) they only care about the end-of-mission rewards because the gameplay itself is shallow, so rewards are the only thing they have to look forward to. If DE would flesh out the gameplay (I think I've mentioned this enough in my previous posts in this thread), then players would start to care about gameplay itself as much as they care about the end-of-mission rewards.

Oh, and I think they need to 1) move away from Lunaro altogether, 2) rework archwing into a CAS (combat air support) system for the ground tilesets, 3) replace space archwing with an actual space fighter mode (with our landing crafts) much like the original Battlefront 2's Conquest mode, and 4) rework PvP into a multiplayer version of the PvE missions.

Edited June 14, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[Culaio]

1 hour ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Well, I think those are just more new features that will probably be half finished. I think DE needs to expand the core gameplay, like the existing missions, to give us more ways to interact with the environment, to make each mission more involved, and to make each gameplay experience more immersive. I don't think superweapons, for example, are going to do that.

 

38 minutes ago, Chamaeleo said:

I'm going to go with the majority and say that, while boring, "shoot, run to extract" is what the majority of players -want- to do.

I would personally love to PVP/Lunaro/Archwing, but these things don't have a high seat on dev priority list or a healthy playerbase because "shoot, run to extract" is what the majority of people whine about whenever any updates not centered on these things drop. 

While that sucks, taking risks that are not profitable to satisfy people that are bored is not something I would do very frequently if I ran this business, and if I did I would dev only after polling the community excessively to ensure it didnt ship to a dead playerbase that -says- they want something other than "shoot, run to extract" but are largely absent from any game mode that doesnt involve "shoot, run to extract." 

I would really want to see more complex missions that have multiple stages(and I believe archwing could be something amazing), I think people are afraid of more complex missions because they are afraid that missions like this wont be worth it mission reward-wise, truth is that if DE given us cool and complex mission but it had same reward as shorter mission people would still mostly do shorter mission because players prefer efficency, which I cant hold against them, people do not trust DE not to screw them over like they did with Hema,

DE doesnt hide the fact that they want players to have less resources and players push back by trying to farm in the most efficent way, DE doesnt want players who dont pay with plat to have stuff from day one, I think what DE is doing is pretty stupid, I mean players do not have resources out of nowhere they spend time and effort to have resources needed for future weapon, instead of farming after weapon drops they do it earlier and once they spend the resources they farm for next weapon, so they spend same amount of time farming, and yet DE is making farming even harder to make sure less people can have it from day one which pretty much sends message "dont play(farm) our game until next weapon/frame or we will make farming even harder in the future" which is horrible for game, since it shrinks player base until new content(weapons/frames) is added, which is bad since people who still have a lot of stuff to get in game will have problem finding people to play with.

[arch111]

3 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Well, I think those are just more new features that will probably be half finished. I think DE needs to expand the core gameplay, like the existing missions, to give us more ways to interact with the environment, to make each mission more involved, and to make each gameplay experience more immersive. I don't think superweapons, for example, are going to do that.

I like the way you think. All of your ideas are good and would expand the Sandbox that Steve wanted before Relays and Syndicates was a thing.

I am certain there is a board crammed with ideas at DE. They call it the Burbonlist, yes?

If Warframe was a Sandbox game it would allow us to impact and tick boxes more. No this is not a RPG, but what if I there were mechanics, gunsmiths, artists, mystics, pilots for hire? Would the game be better?

For me yes. 

For all who only want the grind,  I expect no.

Remember when we helped the Grineer and Corpus steal nodes from each other in a living and active war?  That felt real and I really think many of us played to help "our" faction rather than the shiny they give us after 3-5 invasions.

[Iccotak]

2 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

That's because 1) they want that because they've been conditioned to only care about the end-of-mission rewards, and 2) they only care about the end-of-mission rewards because the gameplay itself is shallow, so rewards are the only thing they have to look forward to. 

 

2 hours ago, Culaio said:

I would really want to see more complex missions that have multiple stages(and I believe archwing could be something amazing), I think people are afraid of more complex missions because they are afraid that missions like this wont be worth it mission reward-wise.

Basically People care Way More about farming for meaningless Mastery Fodder than they do about the game actually being a complete product.
They don't want more complicated missions or raids because it makes farming take longer.

This is a problem and, as I have said before, the community needs to reorient the way they think about this game
Its not a complete game, It is essentially in alpha. And people need to start looking at it more that way so then they can prioritize what is actually important.

For a game of this scope,
-What are the basic and key features Warframe should have to be a complete game?

-What features can this game have that are unique to itself and have not been done in other games?

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Iccotak

[OniDax]

16 minutes ago, arch111 said:

I like the way you think. All of your ideas are good and would expand the Sandbox that Steve wanted before Relays and Syndicates was a thing.

I am certain there is a board crammed with ideas at DE. They call it the Burbonlist, yes?

If Warframe was a Sandbox game it would allow us to impact and tick boxes more. No this is not a RPG, but what if I there were mechanics, gunsmiths, artists, mystics, pilots for hire? Would the game be better?

For me yes. 

For all who only want the grind,  I expect no.

Remember when we helped the Grineer and Corpus steal nodes from each other in a living and active war?  That felt real and I really think many of us played to help "our" faction rather than the shiny they give us after 3-5 invasions.

Warframe being a sandbox game would be great imo.

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, arch111 said:

If Warframe was a Sandbox game it would allow us to impact and tick boxes more. No this is not a RPG, but what if I there were mechanics, gunsmiths, artists, mystics, pilots for hire? Would the game be better?

Remember when we helped the Grineer and Corpus steal nodes from each other in a living and active war?  That felt real and I really think many of us played to help "our" faction rather than the shiny they give us after 3-5 invasions.

I can agree with this.  One of the stories that I really liked was the Glast Gambit.  It was the idea of helping the little girl that was more satisfying than prize at the end.  

6 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

 

Basically People care Way More about farming for meaningless Mastery Fodder than they do about the game actually being a complete product.
They don't want more complicated missions or raids because it makes farming take longer.

This is a problem and, as I have said before, the community needs to reorient the way they think about this game
Its not a complete game, It is essentially in alpha. And people need to start looking at it more that way so then they can prioritize what is actually important.

For a game of this scope,
-What are the basic and key features Warframe should have to be a complete game?

-What features can this game have that are unique to itself and have not been done in other games?

 

I also agree that the community needs to reorient the way they think about the game.  Most view it as a gotta go fast horde shooter and then play it like a fast paced 3rd person version of COD.  I on the other hand, enjoy playing it solo and using stealth to achieve my goals.  Because I like to take my time and really enjoy the game for what it is.  This is not to say that things couldn't be polished a bit more.  

Sadly, any instances of DE trying to add elements that slow down gameplay or add interesting mechanics have been shot down in the forums.  

[P0Pz]

I realy realy enjoy reading this threat. Very polite, civil...siriouse debatting. Keep it going guys, only good can be result out of that. 🖒

[Culaio]

49 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

 

Basically People care Way More about farming for meaningless Mastery Fodder than they do about the game actually being a complete product.
They don't want more complicated missions or raids because it makes farming take longer.

This is a problem and, as I have said before, the community needs to reorient the way they think about this game
Its not a complete game, It is essentially in alpha. And people need to start looking at it more that way so then they can prioritize what is actually important.
 

I dont completly agree, frequently  people simply want somekind of goal to work toward to,for example in grindy games you work to get gear that lets you access higher tier locations. Hell even I want something that gives me sense of progress It doesnt have to be something amazing, it could be something very simple, for example give me somekind of rank up system for my archwing, for example after doing certain number of archwing missions or doing some kind of archwing challenges I could increase my pilot rank, it doesnt even have to come with any bonuses I would just want to show off that I am experianced  pilot.

 

People focus on getting better weapons because game itself focuses on weapons, the fact that mastery rank is based on your gear is the problem, since mastery rank comes with meaningful bonuses and to get higher mastery rank you need to max out huge amount of weapons and frames.

 

[OniDax]

14 minutes ago, Culaio said:

the fact that mastery rank is based on your gear is the problem

Yes, it is one of the issues imo. I think Mastery should be tied to almost any action you do in the game. Every type of kill you can do should reward mastery points. Actions like hacking consoles and successfully defending excavation extractors should gain you mastery. Capturing targets, killing bosses, extracting data, sabotaging stuff, should all give mastery points. That's the standard way XP progression works in games: you progress as you play the game, not just as you acquire and max out items. Hitting rank 30 on a weapon or frame or archwing or companion should give you bonus mastery, but it shouldn't be the only means of gaining mastery. Changing the mastery system so that almost every action you take gains mastery points would be the first step in shifting the focus of the game from being loot-centric to being gameplay-centric. And I think it needs to be done.

[Jobistober]

11 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Yes, it is one of the issues imo. I think Mastery should be tied to almost any action you do in the game. Every type of kill you can do should reward mastery points. Actions like hacking consoles and successfully defending excavation extractors should gain you mastery. Capturing targets, killing bosses, extracting data, sabotaging stuff, should all give mastery points. That's the standard way XP progression works in games: you progress as you play the game, not just as you acquire and max out items. Hitting rank 30 on a weapon or frame or archwing or companion should give you bonus mastery, but it shouldn't be the only means of gaining mastery. Changing the mastery system so that almost every action you take gains mastery points would be the first step in shifting the focus of the game from being loot-centric to being gameplay-centric. And I think it needs to be done.

Wow, so much this.

[arch111]

12 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Yes, it is one of the issues imo. I think Mastery should be tied to almost any action you do in the game. Every type of kill you can do should reward mastery points. Actions like hacking consoles and successfully defending excavation extractors should gain you mastery. Capturing targets, killing bosses, extracting data, sabotaging stuff, should all give mastery points. That's the standard way XP progression works in games: you progress as you play the game, not just as you acquire and max out items. Hitting rank 30 on a weapon or frame or archwing or companion should give you bonus mastery, but it shouldn't be the only means of gaining mastery. Changing the mastery system so that almost every action you take gains mastery points would be the first step in shifting the focus of the game from being loot-centric to being gameplay-centric. And I think it needs to be done.

Aha like being Master Hacker, Reviving Angel, Treasure Hunter and so on? 

 

[arch111]

Steve once dreamed that we could become that best assassin ( in thr assassin Syndicate) and get a cloak that no one else had.

That dream stayed a dream.

[DatDarkOne]

42 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Yes, it is one of the issues imo. I think Mastery should be tied to almost any action you do in the game. Every type of kill you can do should reward mastery points. Actions like hacking consoles and successfully defending excavation extractors should gain you mastery. Capturing targets, killing bosses, extracting data, sabotaging stuff, should all give mastery points. That's the standard way XP progression works in games: you progress as you play the game, not just as you acquire and max out items. Hitting rank 30 on a weapon or frame or archwing or companion should give you bonus mastery, but it shouldn't be the only means of gaining mastery. Changing the mastery system so that almost every action you take gains mastery points would be the first step in shifting the focus of the game from being loot-centric to being gameplay-centric. And I think it needs to be done.

I can totally get behind this idea.  It would also make mastery rank actually mean something.

[Culaio]

1 hour ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Yes, it is one of the issues imo. I think Mastery should be tied to almost any action you do in the game. Every type of kill you can do should reward mastery points. Actions like hacking consoles and successfully defending excavation extractors should gain you mastery. Capturing targets, killing bosses, extracting data, sabotaging stuff, should all give mastery points. That's the standard way XP progression works in games: you progress as you play the game, not just as you acquire and max out items. Hitting rank 30 on a weapon or frame or archwing or companion should give you bonus mastery, but it shouldn't be the only means of gaining mastery. Changing the mastery system so that almost every action you take gains mastery points would be the first step in shifting the focus of the game from being loot-centric to being gameplay-centric. And I think it needs to be done.

As someone who really enjoy's RPG games I love this idea, this would actually motivated me to play game more since it would feel like everything I do makes me progress in game.

[OniDax]

33 minutes ago, Culaio said:

As someone who really enjoy's RPG games I love this idea, this would actually motivated me to play game more since it would feel like everything I do makes me progress in game.

And that's the point. It makes every action you take worthwhile and important to your progression, and it emphasizes gameplay over collecting rewards. The rewards make the gameplay experience even more enjoyable, but they are not the end goal of the game.

[motorfirebox]

3 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Yes, it is one of the issues imo. I think Mastery should be tied to almost any action you do in the game. Every type of kill you can do should reward mastery points. Actions like hacking consoles and successfully defending excavation extractors should gain you mastery. Capturing targets, killing bosses, extracting data, sabotaging stuff, should all give mastery points. That's the standard way XP progression works in games: you progress as you play the game, not just as you acquire and max out items. Hitting rank 30 on a weapon or frame or archwing or companion should give you bonus mastery, but it shouldn't be the only means of gaining mastery. Changing the mastery system so that almost every action you take gains mastery points would be the first step in shifting the focus of the game from being loot-centric to being gameplay-centric. And I think it needs to be done.

I'd go even further and say get rid of overall Mastery altogether. Make it so there's no single overarching 'completion' bar. The current Mastery stat should be redefined as Arsenal Mastery or something, and perhaps broken up into Warframe Mastery, Primary Mastery, Melee Mastery, Archwing Mastery, etc. Then there's, I dunno, Mission Mastery where you gain points for completing mission objectives in X amount of time or staying in endless missions for X amount of waves. There's Skill Mastery, where you get points for hacking a console in under X seconds, your headshot percentage (normalized for multishot!), aimglide accuracy (normalized!), completing missions of difficulty X without setting off an alarm, and so on. And... I dunno, Exploration Mastery, where you rack up points for finding Kuria and Cephalon Fragments and whatever other stuff they add.

The few functions that current Mastery serves would have to be subsumed by other stuff. Since there's a bunch of different mastery categories, maybe every 5 ranks in a given category requires a test? Or maybe there's fewer overall levels—Warframe Mastery, Melee Mastery, Exploration Mastery each only goes up to 5 or 6 in the current content, and each rank in each discipline has a test.

Mastery rank has never really served any purpose besides epeen, and I say this as someone who has aggressively pursued MR for most of my time playing the game. Everything else that's been added to it—gear unlocks, reputation limits, etc.—have been added as afterthoughts. Blow up mastery completely, and rethink those afterthoughts. I think the game would benefit greatly.

[DatDarkOne]

13 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Mission Mastery where you gain points for completing mission objectives in X amount of time or staying in endless missions for X amount of waves. There's Skill Mastery, where you get points for hacking a console in under X seconds, your headshot percentage (normalized for multishot!), aimglide accuracy (normalized!), completing missions of difficulty X without setting off an alarm, and so on.

Now that's the stuff I'm liking right there.  The game already keeps track of these stats in the profiles screen.  Why not allow them to be used in some way other than just on an almost hidden stat screen.

[OniDax]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Now that's the stuff I'm liking right there.  The game already keeps track of these stats in the profiles screen.  Why not allow them to be used in some way other than just on an almost hidden stat screen.

I think all of those stats should go towards our progression.

[Culaio]

5 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

I'd go even further and say get rid of overall Mastery altogether. Make it so there's no single overarching 'completion' bar. The current Mastery stat should be redefined as Arsenal Mastery or something, and perhaps broken up into Warframe Mastery, Primary Mastery, Melee Mastery, Archwing Mastery, etc. Then there's, I dunno, Mission Mastery where you gain points for completing mission objectives in X amount of time or staying in endless missions for X amount of waves. There's Skill Mastery, where you get points for hacking a console in under X seconds, your headshot percentage (normalized for multishot!), aimglide accuracy (normalized!), completing missions of difficulty X without setting off an alarm, and so on. And... I dunno, Exploration Mastery, where you rack up points for finding Kuria and Cephalon Fragments and whatever other stuff they add.

The few functions that current Mastery serves would have to be subsumed by other stuff. Since there's a bunch of different mastery categories, maybe every 5 ranks in a given category requires a test? Or maybe there's fewer overall levels—Warframe Mastery, Melee Mastery, Exploration Mastery each only goes up to 5 or 6 in the current content, and each rank in each discipline has a test.

Mastery rank has never really served any purpose besides epeen, and I say this as someone who has aggressively pursued MR for most of my time playing the game. Everything else that's been added to it—gear unlocks, reputation limits, etc.—have been added as afterthoughts. Blow up mastery completely, and rethink those afterthoughts. I think the game would benefit greatly.

Sorry this I completly disagree with, if game didnt give me sense of progression I would leave it completly, if game doesnt offer me anything to work toward to then game doesnt interest me.

I want game to offer me more sense of progression not less.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Culaio

[True_Naeblis]

11 hours ago, Iccotak said:

 

Basically People care Way More about farming for meaningless Mastery Fodder than they do about the game actually being a complete product.
They don't want more complicated missions or raids because it makes farming take longer.

This is a problem and, as I have said before, the community needs to reorient the way they think about this game
Its not a complete game, It is essentially in alpha. And people need to start looking at it more that way so then they can prioritize what is actually important.

For a game of this scope,
-What are the basic and key features Warframe should have to be a complete game?

-What features can this game have that are unique to itself and have not been done in other games?

 

Well another thing is just the way most of us play now. When Unreal Tournament was all the rage how long did most people get on for? Maybe two-ish hours a day of crazy PvP mayhem, then log, and play again whenever the mood struck. People play Warframe like a traditional MMO, and unfortunately, this game doesn't have the social aspects or any real partially open world activities needed to cater to that. The relays really don't support a good means of interacting with other players and area chat is generally a mess that you jump in and out of for a few minutes at a time because it moves so quickly. Players without interactive clans probably don't feel too connected to the community.

What is amazing is that for all Warframe lacks, there's enough to be enjoyed and enough potential that the population stays pretty high. I hope that DE improves on what's already in place, continues improving things like Trials that really get players involved as a group for a long while at a time, and continue to develop a more dynamic game. It's amazing what's already been done with what is simply a shooter at its core, and I'm looking forward to what continues to develop.

[motorfirebox]

2 hours ago, Culaio said:

Sorry this I completly disagree with, if game didnt give me sense of progression I would leave it completly, if game doesnt offer me anything to work toward to then game doesnt interest me.

I want game to offer me more sense of progression not less.

It would still have progression. It would just have multiple paths of progression, rather than one single path. Players who want to progress will work to max out each path. Many players will focus on one or two paths. Other players will mess around with a bunch of different ones.

[Culaio]

1 hour ago, motorfirebox said:

It would still have progression. It would just have multiple paths of progression, rather than one single path. Players who want to progress will work to max out each path. Many players will focus on one or two paths. Other players will mess around with a bunch of different ones.

Oh sorry, I misunderstood you, didnt read your post properly it seems, I woke up today far too early...

while I love idea of seperate masteries I still think we would need some kind of rank system that shows our overall level, so we could judge how skilled someone is in general, since it would be annoying to look at peoples profile(you wouldnt be able to show all people rank times in bar) everytime to know if someone knows what he is doing or not

 

[OniDax]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm a fan of mastery paths. I don't like the idea of only certain things providing mastery; having multiple mastery paths still means that only those paths provide mastery. I still think that any gameplay action you take should reward mastery. In other words, there should be one wide path, and that wide path includes nearly all gameplay you can engage in. Most of the things on your stats page (in your in-game profile) should be the actions that reward mastery. That way, just playing the game rewards mastery. That should be the broadest way to gain rank. And then, of course, on top of that, you could have narrower progression trees, like the Syndicate system, that have their own rank structure.

[Culaio]

1 hour ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm a fan of mastery paths. I don't like the idea of only certain things providing mastery; having multiple mastery paths still means that only those paths provide mastery. I still think that any gameplay action you take should reward mastery. In other words, there should be one wide path, and that wide path includes nearly all gameplay you can engage in. Most of the things on your stats page (in your in-game profile) should be the actions that reward mastery. That way, just playing the game rewards mastery. That should be the broadest way to gain rank. And then, of course, on top of that, you could have narrower progression trees, like the Syndicate system, that have their own rank structure.

what if we had main mastery rank/level and mastery "paths" that represent your rank/level at doing certain things, if you had to compare it to RPG's main rank would be your level while "paths" would be your skill level, I know it may look  needlessly complex but truth is that main mastery rank wont represent how skilled person is at something that actually may be needed for mission, there is example you can see even now in game, currently master rank isnt best example of how skilled is someone at game but it does show that someone spend time leveling weapon, so that person wont be completly useless  in ground combat, on other hand it doesnt represent how skilled someone is at archwing at all, it would represent at least partially how skilled is someone if we had same amount of archwings and archwing weapons as we have frames and groun  weapons

Same would be in new system, general rank wouldnt reflect how skilled someone is at something that may be needed for mission, which could lead to you being forced to carry high mastery rank person who didnt put ANY effort into getting skilled at archwing through whole mission, which wouldnt be fair to you.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Culaio

[motorfirebox]

12 hours ago, Culaio said:

Oh sorry, I misunderstood you, didnt read your post properly it seems, I woke up today far too early...

while I love idea of seperate masteries I still think we would need some kind of rank system that shows our overall level, so we could judge how skilled someone is in general, since it would be annoying to look at peoples profile(you wouldnt be able to show all people rank times in bar) everytime to know if someone knows what he is doing or not

 

Well... it's not like MR is a very good indicator of skill anyway. I've played with plenty of MR20+ guys who I had to carry. I'm MR23 and I've never done the Jordas raid. MR doesn't really tell you anything about the player other than how many bars they've managed to fill. Even the more skill-based mastery disciplines I suggested would really only tell you what someone has managed to do once. Honestly, people using MR as an estimator of skill level is one of the reasons I want to get rid of it.