[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[FoxFX]

Wanted to share how the Warframe players in Reddit feel about [DE]Rebecca's news:

 

 

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

12 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

 

No change planned for Tentacle Swarm? And please mind that some people prefer playing solo, sitting in a puddle while other players are doing the rest shouldn't be the best way to play Hydroid

You can still cast Hydroid's other abilities while in Undertow. That said, some frames are better suited to certain tasks than others. I'm sure you can build a viable Lvl 30-40 Solo Hydroid; but if you want to run him effectively in the endgame solo?

You might be asking a bit much.

Not every frame can run solo endgame. As a matter of fact, only a handful of them can. Hydroid has never really been a viable endgame frame to begin with, courtesy of his skillset. With the friendly fire absorb Undertow though, he could carve a pretty nifty niche in Endgame Interception and Defense missions. Possibly survival as well. Hydroid could shine in pretty much any holdout mission type with the proposed Undertow.

Edited August 16, 2017 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[Elvangreen]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

HOT OFF THE PRESS (not literally we don't have a press):

Since the last Hotfix and now a lot of changes are being proposed and tested.

Things change quickly so this is just our goal - not confirmed for tomorrow yet - but it's where our heads are at and what we are trying to get in:
Visually we want to get PBR done on Hydroid.
We have increased his base energy pool.
We want Tempest Barrage to have better Audio feedback on its charging.
We want Undertow to have better possible damage scaling over time and as of a couple of minutes ago we are experimenting with squadmates being able to shoot into the puddle to damage submerged enemies. Since this is a recent experiment be prepared that it might not work out quickly or work out at all!

Stay tuned for the Update Notes!

Please, Please add one more thing..

Hydroids 4th power tentacles constrict enemies and hold them immobile after slapping them around a few times.

This would make it far better CC as it would no-longer impede allies ability to hit the victims.

Other then that, keep up the great work!

Edited August 16, 2017 by Elvangreen

[zork9900]

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

DE is trying to make his kit work; chiefly because it's more cost and time effective. Frankly, I disagree with scrapping Undertow. I think it could be brilliant with the proper mechanics behind it, but a huge chunk of the WF community has it in their heads that "rework" means "gets an exalted weapon."

 

To date, the only instance of that happening was excalibur's rework. So don't get your hopes up.

 

Allowing teamates to damage enemies in undertow would effectivelly be like Hydroid gaining a variant of Nyx's absorb. He's nearly immobile, invincible, and he can't attack with weapons. But he can incapacitate mobs, do damage over time, AND open enemy units up to team fire courtesy of the new mechanic.

 

This would make Undertow an incredibly useful ability, as it shuts down enemy mobs, and allows teammates to safely engage them; while also making Hydroid invincible. To top it off, the Aug could add a healing effect to Undertow, massively boosting its team utility. A safe place to hide and recover, while Hydroid sucks up the big threats? Tell me there isn't any viable strategy to be had in a dedicated Puddle-Hydroid build.

It's practically a mix of Banish, Vortex, and Antimatter Drop! How could Undertow be anything BUT amazing with the adoption of the proposed mechanic?

I never said to give Hydroid an exalted weapon, in my post I compared Hydroid to Limbo much more, and only mentioned Excalibur's rework briefly, just because I mentioned Excalibur doesn't mean I'm talking about an exalted weapon. Also even though "rework" doesn't mean getting an exalted weapons specifically, it implies changing abilities, taking out some abilities, and adding in new ones, Hydroids abilities barely got touched, and whether you liked the changes or not this definitely shouldn't have been called a "rework". And with undertow, a very large part of the community doesn't like it, even if some people suggest an exalted weapon as a replacement, that's just because they like the idea of giving hydroid a weapon, and they're giving their ideas to DE, I'm sure most would be happy if the ability got removed, even if the replacement wasn't an exalted weapon.

[Urlan]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

HOT OFF THE PRESS (not literally we don't have a press):

Since the last Hotfix and now a lot of changes are being proposed and tested.

Things change quickly so this is just our goal - not confirmed for tomorrow yet - but it's where our heads are at and what we are trying to get in:
Visually we want to get PBR done on Hydroid.
We have increased his base energy pool.
We want Tempest Barrage to have better Audio feedback on its charging.
We want Undertow to have better possible damage scaling over time and as of a couple of minutes ago we are experimenting with squadmates being able to shoot into the puddle to damage submerged enemies. Since this is a recent experiment be prepared that it might not work out quickly or work out at all!

Stay tuned for the Update Notes!

Sounds interesting, hope it helps Hydroid be more useful to teams.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

12 minutes ago, zork9900 said:

I never said to give Hydroid an exalted weapon, in my post I compared Hydroid to Limbo much more, and only mentioned Excalibur's rework briefly, just because I mentioned Excalibur doesn't mean I'm talking about an exalted weapon. Also even though "rework" doesn't mean getting an exalted weapons specifically, it implies changing abilities, taking out some abilities, and adding in new ones, Hydroids abilities barely got touched, and whether you liked the changes or not this definitely shouldn't have been called a "rework". And with undertow, a very large part of the community doesn't like it, even if some people suggest an exalted weapon as a replacement, that's just because they like the idea of giving hydroid a weapon, and they're giving their ideas to DE, I'm sure most would be happy if the ability got removed, even if the replacement wasn't an exalted weapon.

Chill bro. I'm not attacking you or your previous comment. There's no need need to get defensive. I'm merely clarifying that there is a legitimate use for Undertow now (assuming DE actually goes through with the proposition), and stating their reasoning for avoiding a complete Hydroid overhaul. As for defining this as a "rework"?

Neither you or I are really qualified to assign that definition. His skills are being changed, just not to the level that prior reworked Frames were. I concede a certain level my own disappointment in the current rework, but DE is at least trying to address the concerns of the community.

And DE has yet to say "This is the final Hydroid rework build," so there is still a chance for future improvements. Until they drop that bombsell, I'm going to be chill, critique DE's work as they've requested their community do while respecting their creative liberates, and extend to them the benefit of the doubt. I'm hoping that they adjust the mechanics of Hydroid's 1st and 4th a bit more before they finalize the rework.

 

And if the rework is a total flop, so what?

Most of us have never used Hydroid as a main anyways. The community really isn't losing anything, except some of their good faith in the Devs. DE would only hurt themselves by not delivering a satisfactory Hydroid rework.

[Rekkou]

10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

 

Solo playing isn't just about doing any difficulty solo, it's about the enjoyment of playing alone disregard of the difficulty. That's not much at all

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

Just now, Rekkou said:

Solo playing isn't just about doing any difficulty solo, it's about the enjoyment of playing alone disregard of the difficulty. That's not much at all

Well, we have what? 50 Different Warframes to choose from? Pick the one you like to play, and play solo with it.

I frankly hate Frost's playstyle, because running circles in a snow globe is boring to me. So I don't ever play Frost, and stick with Frames that I do like to play, such as Titania, Octavia, Wukong, Volt, and Nyx. Problem solved. I don't expect to like every Frame's playstyle, and it's kind of cool running into other players with different tastes in playstyle than me. Diversity is the chief ingredient in WF, and you shouldn't expect to relish every flavor. But if everything did taste the same in WF, then WF would be a pretty bland game to play.

[Rekkou]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

 

If you prefer everything as it is without doing any effort to change anything to improve your own game, that's your call. The purpose of forum is to gather feedback to change and improve the game and all players have the right to voice their desired change. If you hate change that much then you shouldn't be here because nothing you said will stop people from wanting change.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

14 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

If you prefer everything as it is without doing any effort to change anything to improve your own game, that's your call. The purpose of forum is to gather feedback to change and improve the game and all players have the right to voice their desired change. If you hate change that much then you shouldn't be here because nothing you said will stop people from wanting change.

Dude, I was one of first Tenno to suggest the team-fire mechanic in Undertow. I'm getting what I want. I'm making a point of informing other players as to why this mechanic is a massive boon to Hydroid, because so many players seem to think that all the Warframes should play similar to each other.

I don't wanted Exalted Anchor Hydroid. I don't want the kraken head to eat Grineer. What I want is a Frame that does something that no other single frame can do. What I want is a new playstyle.

And if DE keeps on tweaking Hydroid's abilities and stats according to player feedback, we could end up getting a Frame that plays like no other. An offensive CC support frame with invulnerability that permits for diverse team coordination? We don't have enough diversity in the offensive CC support tier. I could happily play as a puddle that swallows hordes of enemies by rushing from one Interception objective to the next using Tidal Surge, while dropping barrages and tentacles on enemy spawn points to support my teammates.

And as an added bonus? When I've guzzled up every enemy on the field, my teammates can just unload their artillery into my puddle and kill everything that I've consumed?

The Hyperlethal Hentia is real, my friend.

Edited August 16, 2017 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[Rekkou]

Just now, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

 

Don't care, it's your feedback, your own problem. Don't shove it to other players in hope your feedback will be the only one they listen.

[(PSN)FutureCrusader]

Just now, Rekkou said:

Don't care, it's your feedback, your own problem. Don't shove it to other players in hope your feedback will be the only one they listen.

That's not what he's doing. He's spitballing ideas that could work, just as you are/were. You're making it seem like he's shoving his concepts down your throat.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

Just now, Rekkou said:

Don't care, it's your feedback, your own problem. Don't shove it to other players in hope your feedback will be the only one they listen.

Not really my problem, seeing as I'm happy about this. And by the way, something to keep in mind about your former comment?

The door swings both ways. Maybe you should work with the DEVs in making Hydroid fun for solo play, instead of just winging about not getting what you want.

Undertow isn't going anywhere. DE made that perfectly clear when they released the initial rework, and Undertow was still on the table.

They didn't eliminate Oberon's kit despite community pressure, and I wouldn't expect DE to suddenly cave in to community pressure now. Figure out how Undertow could work for your style of gameplay, and give the DEVs something tangible to work with.

[Rekkou]

Just now, (PS4)Maddriver1 said:

That's not what he's doing. He's spitballing ideas that could work, just as you are/were. You're making it seem like he's shoving his concepts down your throat.

Except that he did, if he isn't then he won't be replying to me in the first place. He'll be minding his own feedback and not bothering anyone else.

[Rekkou]

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

 

Yeah, you made it clear your problem is anyone who might change what you like.

Despite wanting change, i'm not in any allusion that DE will follow any of my ideas, in previous reworks case, DE responds to negative feedback and handled it on their own. A short negative feedback is evidently the most efficient form of feedback in this case.

[(PSN)Keiji_Haku]

I deal in practicality. Hence I don't care for paper crap i look at how things play out in mission. He is too inconsistent with CC and damage. I don't care what you do but this can't be a thing. If you Devs wanna do both that's fine but I can't stand watching 1/3 of my tempest barrage hit literally nothing.

I read the ideas regarding undertow and honestly i don't understand why undertow was ever a thing.

Ill be reasonable though. if people want to keep hydroid's craptastic undertow then ok I don't want to be in it. I want to be able to choose whether i move in undertow or if i just place the CURRENT on the ground. I'll take a penalty for all i care but I don't want the whole focus be undertow and I'm stuck being in it.

 

 

EDIT: Swarm is a basic damage/cc AOE that deals mediocre damage.I say utilize that Kraken and make it a pet. We have like one true frame with a pet and thats atlas. I think we should be able to create a "fence" that keeps the Kraken in a set area via a radius from our target  point.

Edited August 16, 2017 by (PS4)Keiji_Haku

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

10 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Yeah, you made it clear your problem is anyone who might change what you like.

Despite wanting change, i'm not in any allusion that DE will follow any of my ideas, in previous reworks case, DE responds to negative feedback and handled it on their own. A short negative feedback is evidently the most efficient form of feedback in this case.

Hey, it's your salt to sprinkle. I just wouldn't expect much to come of it. I stated my own reasons for working with Undertow instead of whining about it in the unrealistic hopes that DE would scrap it. But everyone has their own methodology, and if your and my current circumstance is anything to go by?

Some methods seem to achieve better results than others.

I hope that you enjoy the rework, Rekkou, 'cause I feel pretty confidant that I will.

Edited August 16, 2017 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[Rekkou]

Just now, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

 

Yet here you are, replying and arguing to anyone because you fear the next feedback will be one step forward that will push the change. I'll take salt over cold sweat anytime.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

5 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Yet here you are, replying and arguing to anyone because you fear the next feedback will be one step forward that will push the change. I'll take salt over cold sweat anytime.

Are you aware of your own hypocrisy, or did someone just wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Hey, you're the one resorting to personal attacks. If rationalizing a feasible utility for Hydroid is beyond your faculties, then maybe you shouldn't be flinging your attitude around in this megathread. Reddit exists for a reason you know.

Edited August 16, 2017 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[(PSN)CourageFails]

While the update was needed it failed to deliver in my own opinion. What I'd like to see is for Barrage's angle changed to 90 degrees, with a target reticle that shows it current AOE which grows with the charge, doing the same for Tentacle, combine Undertow and Tidal Surge due to how Surge seems only to be used for movement or for a "Force Push" effect, and replace it with possibly a buff/pet/toggle ability. That's just my opinion.

[RikerWatts]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Well, that was a doozy of a trip XD

Okay, first thing's first. Hydroid's deal is that he is a Defensive Support frame with Offensive tactics. What I mean by that it that, while his abilities are offensive in nature, they, for the most part, are supportive CC. Now, he may not do a whole lot of damage currently (DE just stated they have more buffs on the way) he can control a very large area, and keep it held well.

Now, his first ability is great for Chokepoints, as are many of his abilities. What makes it nice other than the constant knockdowns, is that it allows any enemies affected to be hit with a finisher, so long as you get them in time. It's nice for armor stripping en masse with the Augment, but unless you're up against Grineer or Corrupted, I recommend not using Augment. Overall, it does a good amount of damage, in a very nice range, and can keep enemies down if repeatedly cast. It's also nice if you cast this, then cast Tentacle Swarm, as the enemies won't be able to get out of the way since they were just knocked down.

His second ability is an oddball, it's move of a movement system to me, but it's useful for either setting enemies up for finishers since it knocks them down, or dragging them into an Undertow since it can be cast and cancel the wave. When using Undertow, it's nice since you can use his 2nd to speed along in a direction you choose quicker and for a lot less energy than it would take if you tried moving it naturally in Undertow. What I meant by movement system is, for example, using the wave during the decryption portion of Jordas Verdict will allow you to move to each point, especially during purges, and take little to nothing off your armor gauge. Not really special, but nice to note. It's augment is nice, curing procs and whatnot, but it's not super amazing. 

Now Undertow, his 3rd, is a central part of his kit now. You can cast all his other abilities while inside it, and even grab enemies outside it's range and pull them into Undertow. It's damage now scales the longer the enemies are inside it, and will die relatively quick. About 10 seconds with a decent build kills a Level 120 Corpus Tech. It's nothing much more than a safe place for Hydroid as he's invulnerable while inside it, and can safely move around and cast his abilities. Again, as I said, you can use his 2nd to move around faster. Undertow, like all his abilities, is best used in a choke point for maximum efficiency. The augment can help heal your team a little, but is little help aside from that.

Finally, Tentacle Swarm. This one's been upgraded so now the tentacles will actually attempt to find enemies, rather than flail about. Their damage is negligable, but they will keep enemies busy, as once they've been grabbed, they won't be let go until they die or the ability ends. Also it temporarily spawns in a little Kraken friend to say hi. It's a pretty straight forward ability in terms of use. It's augment just turns him into a discount Nekros. Good for farming, but should be paired with the real deal for maximum efficiency.

He's better in a group to support him.

I'd go into more detail, but time constraints, you understand.

That's how I see Hydroid. Good a choke points, good CC, fun frame.

A really big issue I can see on it is how duration is one of his highest stats and affects the speed and range of tidal surge. That's able to throw you off ledges or stick you to a wall. While it can now be re-cast midway, that high duration doesn't really change.
The proposal of trapper-basis comes from the fact that his one and four act as area denial and traps for enemies, the implementation of his undertow turning into a new way to utilize the trapping ability without removing hydroid. I understand it is meant to be his safezone, but I can't help but feel like that's counterproductive to the pace of warframe.

[Rekkou]

Just now, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

Are you aware of your own hypocrisy, or did someone just wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Hey, you're the one resorting to personal attacks. If rationalizing a feasible utility for Hydroid is beyond your faculties, then maybe you shouldn't be flinging your attitude around in this megathread. Reddit exists for reason you know.

I'm pretty sure i am simply minding my own business before someone started pushing their own opinion and in the ends gets more salty than the person being pushed. Guess, you shouldn't push if you're not ready to be pushed back. Let's just call this your karma, a lesson of life for you. Because if you're still planning to shove your opinion to someone else, even after me, there will be more complain to come. If the reworks is "done"  but Hydroid is still bad, people would still complain and another reworks will be coming.

Well, hope you enjoy your next opponent.

[DatDarkOne]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

And she also has to deal with Armor. Hydroid doesnt.

Not quite true my fellow Tenno.  Sleep Arrow to Stealth melee finisher bypasses all shields and armor.   You may all carry on with your Hydroid discussion.  :D

[LuckyCharm]

Just going to throw my opinion out there... I don't like him. As a solo frame hes okay and fun, but in team based missions, especially higher levels, your team mates get annoyed at you when you're sitting in a puddle sucking in all the enemies so they can't hit them. That was the whole problem with the ability post-rework and its still there. Only worse because every skill now synergises with the puddle forcing players to actually deal with it. 

I felt so bad sitting in my puddle killing things while an excalibur was trying to exaulted blade them and failing cus i'd snatched everything in my area and he couldnt hit them

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

17 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

A really big issue I can see on it is how duration is one of his highest stats and affects the speed and range of tidal surge. That's able to throw you off ledges or stick you to a wall. While it can now be re-cast midway, that high duration doesn't really change.
The proposal of trapper-basis comes from the fact that his one and four act as area denial and traps for enemies, the implementation of his undertow turning into a new way to utilize the trapping ability without removing hydroid. I understand it is meant to be his safezone, but I can't help but feel like that's counterproductive to the pace of warframe.

Honestly, I feel like if you could cancel out of Tidal without going into Undertow only, it would remove a lot if Energy costs and up his efficiency.

Like, going into an Undertow cancel is useful, but being able to hit Tidal mid-use to cancel without Extra energy punishment would be nice.