Ember's Deluxe Skin Feedback

[Rhekemi]

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

I think you have got me here. I like to debate over anything that catches attention.

 

Likewise.

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Action on constructive feedback would have been nice. It's not exactly something to be conflated when they are linked. Of course, they don't have to be nice about it. I can understand that.

As for the part on being respectful, this is in itself subjective due to differing levels of tolerance. Some people will see bashing as frankness, and be open to some amount of it. Others might see even the smallest slight as bashing. I think it boils down to this:

It's ok to call the Vermillion Skin a steaming pile of hot garbage. It's attacking the Product, not the Person with a harsh opinion. Yet, it's not ok to call the Artist a crap tier artist. This is personal attack. However, this is only my view. To me, it is still respectful so long as you do not involve the person directly, even if you criticize their work with the harshest of terms.

2

Generally agreed.

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I was under the impression to moderators were under instruction from DE, hence their actions would reflect the official stance. Perhaps, if they are biased, then this might be less relevant in terms of my argumentation, because then it is the fault of moderator bias and error, not related to DE's stance on things.

However, as you mention, moderators make mistakes, or have their own bias, as they are human as well. As for the posts about Ignus Dei's skin? Some moderators love it. They will be biased.

3

It's both: directives from DE and mods doing their own thing. I've been a mod and admin for 11 years in a tiny gaming community and know how easy it is to make a wrong decision for the right reasons. Company policy can be broad and general, but also specific. Yet management really doesn't micromanage moderator decisions. They tend to trust the mods to keep the game and forum civil using the existing guidelines and their own judgment. Often, moderator bias, wrong judgement, or just plain overzealousness can lead to them making calls that the company does not or would not support.

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I wouldn't be so sure about this to claim I know it. Maybe the lead designer didn't think it was crap, but the others in the art team might have thought it was without commenting given the time they put into it. People are lazier than one thinks, although I am assuming the worst of humanity again. We don't even know what went on in their minds, since the design process is not transparent.

As for DE believing in their work, are you sure it wasn't just DE releasing it to show they stand behind their employee? We don't even know if the actual devs liked the skin, since it's likely they won't tell us anything close to the truth to maintain company image. Perhaps some like it, some don't. I'm sure the devs have their personal opinions they do not speak of.

2

Let's put it this way, I believe we can agree artists take pride in their work. Yes, it's a job, yes there are deadlines, and yes in a massive and fast-moving development landscape like DE's, some efforts won't be 100%, nor reflective of their original vision.

But I don't believe any artist would willfully put out work they thought was bad or garbage. I believe they put out their best work, given whatever circumstances are on the ground at the time.

Even with the lack of transparency, humans being lazy and unwilling to tell their co-worker the truth, I can't see an artist putting out a skin they knew was bad.

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These people are the problem, yes, but they are an everpresent pervasive problem. You can't change them, neither can I. Thus, facing reality, I opine the artists have to change to face these people, as they can't change the people. Sure, some of them will mature and get out of that stage. But more will be born. It is a problem that cannot be solved, hence mitigation is the next best solution.

A chinese proverb I know states "if you know there's tigers on the mountain, don't climb it". Point is, if you know there is a problem, why stir it?

3

No, the artists should never, ever, change to face those people. Those people can never, and will never be pleased. If one does please them, they'll use the same tactics of targeted, personalized hatred and bullying to get what they want later. They're a tiny minority in every community, but those people should continue to be ignored and shunned because their way is never the answer. (Why they're angry shouldn't be ignored, just their tactics.)

I will agree with you that the artists should change, open themselves up to creative and constructive criticism from the rest of us, the vast majority. If that majority includes their co-workers on the art team, that would also be great. 

If the artists could learn humility, have less pride and stubbornness, that would be great. I will concede that the symbiotic relationship between the artists and the community needs to be strengthened.

We've talked about the black box that is the art team in this thread. They'd have to be willing to open up and accept feedback in the future.

Granted, a lot of this is guesswork since we don't know them. We just know people and workplace politics in general.

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As for the artist accepting that the design was bad, maybe they already did, but of course neither them or DE would come out and say "yes, I made a bad design, forgive me". It would be pointless and silly as it opens the avenue to more trolls who would see it as insincere.

2

I believe an acknowledgment down the road, a commitment to listen, and a willigness to change a poor design in the future wouldn't hurt.

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If the artist is still being arrogant about it, they really are no different to the trolls who criticize them, really, to the extent I would say they deserve bashing.

 

No. In an environment like this one--where the community's so integral to development--bashing has no place and never will. Not to mention bashing them will change nothing. It simply hardens the artists' hearts, justifies their arrogance, and makes it harder for the rest of us to get through to them. 

Arrogance and pride do have to be overcome, tempered with humility. Humble's not humiliated though. The former is about growth, the latter is not.

I think it's on us, the majority, people like you and me, as well as the mods, to never let the minority who would target and bully get their way through those means. We all lose once they do. I think we've all done a good job so far.

That said, I agree that stubbornness and arrogance are detrimental to the game and community in the long term. There's no denying that. I never think the game is coming to an end based on one poor launch or something like Hema, but I do think little things like DE's stubbornness on Hema chips away at the game and community. 

I said earlier not to use my words to paint the art team in a bad light, but it doesn't matter what words one uses, there is an air that needs to change (whether it's pride, arrogance or simple dissonance). 

Keeping toxic trolls out is noble and needed, but addressing internal issues, simply listening to the community, is just as important.

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I actually don't wish to debate this, but to address my point on nuances sometimes dragging an argument down, it is due to the simple act of raising too many sub points under the main point. This leads to challenging of the own main point, after which the challenge is accepted as qualification, or dismissed as inaccurate/irrelevant in the current context. I am familiar with this style, and in fact it would be excellent if one is doing an Essay in the humanities.

An argument is not black and white. Binary makes it easier. However, the debate/issue itself is not binary and is an opinion spectrum. That I all understand and accept.

2

Yes, nuance (mine included) can do that to an argument. Agreed.

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But you are still writing a post for others to read. If you put it in a way that's difficult to follow/hard to read, people have to interpret it for themselves and search for your actual stand. Then you end up with people like me cherry picking clearer points, or complete misinterpretation. I believe that is not your aim, because you wished to express your whole thoughts, but people are either so awed they have nothing left to say, or they see lots of contradictions and start arguing on it.

1

I can see that now.

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In Orwell's words "if you need the reader to understand, put it in the plainest text possible."

 

There's some overlap between the lack of brevity and simplicity in my posts, but I'd argue a lack of brevity is more problematic for readers. While I go into tangents on the issue, each interrelated tangent has its own section and point/purpose. I could use TL;DR summaries to wrap up all the points in the tome (as I do elsewhere).

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I am the only vocal person who misinterpreted it/cherry picked points which I believed was your stance, because I saw things I strongly disagreed with which I felt necessary to address (that you may have addressed alternately in your own post). It may not be the case for those who read the forums, and I am plenty sure a lot of lazy readers skipped your post entirely. Eye catching it is, but also dry to an extent, as you admit, due to the sheer length.

Of course, if people agree somewhat with your post, even if they misread it, they are unlikely to say anything more than "good job!". You would not know how they read your post. I am opening a lot of cans of worms here regarding the nature of argument and understanding, I know, but I felt it had to be mentioned.

3

No can of worms opened, actually, and it was worth mentioning and true. While we disagree, it's clear your criticisms are honest and not unfounded.

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I gotta say, you would be a top level humanities student and fantastic essayist that covers a wide variety of views in a way acceptable to everyone. Very commendable on that.

1

Thanks. Did not expect that. I can't decide if this is validating or depressing. Not because it's not true, but because I've been running away from doing that for some time now. I do write essays. Then I bury them deep in a vault never to be seen. Focused on other writing priorities (there's more profit in working on others' writing and writing to market than there is writing essays). Currently trying to create essayist fiction and currently not convinced I can do it, put a foot in both worlds and succeed. More convinced I'll fall flat on my face, to be honest.

You could say I'm at a literary crossroads about what I actually want to do, what I should be doing, and how to combine them or do them all simultaneously.

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But also a horrible debater that seems to vacillate over a stand too much. Again, no offense meant. 

As for long winded ... really depends on the context of what you are writing. For debate, unnecessarily so. For academic essay, not really.

2

No offense taken. 

On the last sentence, agreed.

The direction this went was unexpected but appreciated. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Rhekemi

[Guest]

I would say, thank you for kindly replying and humoring me for so long, and reading my posts here.

Although to clarify some points:

2 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

Let's put it this way, I believe we can agree artists take pride in their work. Yes, it's a job, yes there are deadlines, and yes in a massive and fast-moving development landscape like DE's, some efforts won't be 100%, nor reflective of their original vision.

But I don't believe any artist would willfully put out work they thought was bad or garbage. I believe they put out their best work, given whatever circumstances are on the ground at the time.

Even with the lack of transparency, humans being lazy and unwilling to tell their co-worker the truth, I can't see an artist putting out a skin they knew was bad.

When I said artists not liking it, I meant the rest of the art team, not the lead designer. You could be forced to work on assets you disagree with by the leader, no? It's a team effort and the whole team may not agree. I doubt one guy/girl rendered that whole thing alone. Could have been disagreements on how the whole skin was put together, which was perhaps why someone said it looked like several skins clobbered together.

And sometimes, you labour and labour, you make work you think is satisfactory, then you push it out and after than you look back and go "oh crap, could have been better". But too late. An artist won't put out a skin they thought was bad at the time it was put out, but regret is not always absent.

2 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

No, the artists should never, ever, change to face those people. Those people can never, and will never be pleased. If one does please them, they'll use the same tactics of targeted, personalized hatred and bullying to get what they want later. They're a tiny minority in every community, but those people should continue to be ignored and shunned because their way is never the answer. (Why they're angry shouldn't be ignored, just their tactics.)

I will agree with you that the artists should change, open themselves up to creative and constructive criticism from the rest of us, the vast majority. If that majority includes their co-workers on the art team, that would also be great. 

If the artists could learn humility, have less pride and stubbornness, that would be great. I will concede that the symbiotic relationship between the artists and the community needs to be strengthened.

We've talked about the black box that is the art team in this thread. They'd have to be willing to open up and accept feedback in the future.

Granted, a lot of this is guesswork since we don't know them. We just know people and workplace politics in general.

When I said Artists need to change to face the trolls, I do not mean pandering to them. It is acknowledging such people exist and knowing how to handle the situation, not brazenly putting out work that is intended to challenge and bait them then hiding behind a veil of anonymity so the company takes the brunt of it. It is accepting they exist and will never be satisfied, rather than pretending they are non entities. And the easiest way to shut them up is creating good work that's loved by so many people, there's no real room to debate it. And DE has done it before, so I believe they can do it again.

When bullies harass you, you don't give in to them. You learn self defense and keep them away. Or when your art is criticized, you practice more, gather information on what's good, and work on better products. This is what I am talking about.

And yes, the issue of the black box and lack of transparency. It makes it hard to correct issues once they have been entrenched. Perhaps, if they released the super rough sketches of the Vermillion skin way back and people started dropping proper feedback, this whole affair could have been avoided, rather than waiting till all the super tough 3D rendering was done. A random sketch on paper is easy to change. A 3D model not so.

2 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

I believe an acknowledgment down the road, a commitment to listen, and a willingness to change a poor design in the future wouldn't hurt.

They could have already acknowledged it privately, and rethought their model of designing the deluxe skins. They are not obliged to publicly say "we know we messed up."

After all, words are just words unless translated into action. I rather DE actually show us they listen than just keep telling us "ok, give us feedback..." I think this is what you are trying to get at, but that's not what I was talking about. I was speaking of private acknowledgement vs public acknowledgement.

2 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

No. In an environment like this one--where the community's so integral to development--bashing has no place and never will. Not to mention bashing them will change nothing. It simply hardens the artists' hearts, justifies their arrogance, and makes it harder for the rest of us to get through to them. 

Arrogance and pride do have to be overcome, tempered with humility. Humble's not humiliated though. The former is about growth, the latter is not.

I think it's on us, the majority, people like you and me, as well as the mods, to never let the minority who would target and bully get their way through those means. We all lose once they do. I think we've all done a good job so far.

That said, I agree that stubbornness and arrogance are detrimental to the game and community in the long term. There's no denying that. I never think the game is coming to an end based on one poor launch or something like Hema, but I do think little things like DE's stubbornness on Hema chips away at the game and community. 

I said earlier not to use my words to paint the art team in a bad light, but it doesn't matter what words one uses, there is an air that needs to change (whether it's pride, arrogance or simple dissonance). 

Keeping toxic trolls out is noble and needed, but addressing internal issues, simply listening to the community, is just as important.

If someone is that arrogant to never change and be ultra stubborn, to be honest, they really don't deserve to be part of an Art Team, and never will. In that case, I see no wrong in berating a Primadonna wrapped up in an ivory tower, as I mentioned, due to the difficulty in giving them any sympathy. If anything, this sort of artist is the most toxic when they cannot acknowledge their shortcoming and believe they are perfect. This is what I am talking about. An artist so arrogant he/she believes they could do no wrong. People who purposely invite trouble will get into trouble sooner or later.

Bullying is wrong in principle, but really, it makes people very unsympathetic when the victim themself is being toxic at large. And every mistake made, as you do correctly point out, chip away at our faith in game design/art design. It makes us less sympathetic and willing to play the game/buy the product. I am not talking about the average art guy who's willing to back down when enough negativity is doled out. I'm talking about the sort who really never ever listen.

Don't you find it ... disturbing that people who cannot take criticism are put in charge of designing items to please the majority of players? I'm not saying this is happening, but if it is, that's a sad state of affairs.

[Kalvorax]

I like her body skin....but dislike her Helmet.

that being said i REALLY think they should swap the accent and Tertiary colors....because imo any Metal looking areas should ALWAYS be accent....and unless DE decides to let us color helms separately like thy did for attachments and syndanas...it just doesnt look good at all (ie. i use the ember prime helmet due to disliking the vermillion helm...and not being able to "prime" the helmet because i want the body "primed" sucks)

[Streambonker]

Ok, DE, I've waited for a nice while, see if the Skin would grow on me. I played around with colours and it made some difference. But going from loathing the skin to hating it is not that much of an improvement.

I was against the 1000C degree knife Mohawk thing from the first moment it was announced, Ember does not need a Mohawk on every single skin. With every other Warframe, the different helmets are like "Choose what kind of a helmet you wanna wear!" But with Ember you've always only given us the choice of "CHOOSE YOUR STYLE OF MOHAWK!". The only other frame you do this with is Nyx. Which is YET ANOTHER MOHAWK. The only helmets that go away from that motiff are the carnifex and Saikou tennogen helmets!

Look at Nidus, one helmet is Angular and aggressive, the other one is a turnip with claws, i may dislike the aesthetics of one so I can always choose the other.

Nova, always has that little engine thing on the back of her head, different styling of it, but it's always there. When you made the Asuri skin for her though, you chose to ditch the Head engine thing to stay true to the THEME of the skin.

Look at Frost prime, how completely different the Deluxe skin for him was! He was a short stout chunky boi with barely a head or a neck and then he became 50% muscles, 30% neck and 20% horns!

Look at Trinity Prime, one of my favourite designs in the game! Compare all the helmets that trinity has! Compare the silhouette difference between Trinity, Trinity P and Trinity Deluxe's bodies.

Now compare the silhouette between Ember, Ember P, and Ember Deluxe's bodies. Now do the same with Chroma! Do the same with most every Deluxe skin! Each one looks unique, different from their default or prime skins! That is what makes them controversial but also interesting and desirable. With Ember, I'm sorry but she looks like she's about to go last minute to the Brazil Carnival (Google at your own risk, can be mildly NSFW), and she just lost a bit of waist, stuck a couple of feathers on her shoulders and arms, then her hair became a weird cross between infested wobbling flesh, feathers, hair and jello.

Disclaimer: I did buy the pack. Not because I like the skin; I almost never use deluxe skins when there are prime variants available, but to support the development of my favourite game. That being said Ignus' deluxe skin idea was the ONE thing that gave me pause and would have made me switch my main frame from her prime variant to a deluxe one.

 

Do as you will with this information, if you are even reading this DE. I know, ok? I know you have a certain vision for Ember, her aesthetics, her concept, who she is and what she would wear. I don't know as well as you, but I know one thing.

The fiery, punk-rock woman that is Ember would go against this conformity to a mohawk, the mainstream image for a person belonging in the Punk subculture. It goes against all that punk stands for.

And Ember, the Queen of Flames, the Mistress of Cinders and the Lady of all that is hot and passionate would not wear a chicken-suit.

[DatDarkOne]

29 minutes ago, StreamBonker said:

**snipped for length**

I really liked the way you presented your feedback.  It makes sense and you provided great examples to prove your point.  You also did it without insulting anyone's work.  This is the type of thing I was referring to in my posts on this topic.  I do hope that DE truly considers the input that you've given with this post.  I also hope that it doesn't get lost in these 42 pages now.  

[Kalvorax]

On 11/9/2017 at 8:47 AM, Datam4ss said:

The Thanatos Scythe is a thing of beauty when it overwrote my Caustacyst. The Sugatra is pure gold.

i agree with you here...I Love the look of the skin...EXCEPT for the default blue of the wisps (dont get me wrong it is nice...but its constant and thus does not mix well with literally any energy color that isnt white, blue (and its combinations and variations) or black. I like having a red energy color (especially since I can color the whole blade a blood red color from Accents, YAY)

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Kalvorax said:

i agree with you here...I Love the look of the skin...EXCEPT for the default blue of the wisps (dont get me wrong it is nice...but its constant and thus does not mix well with literally any energy color that isnt white, blue (and its combinations and variations) or black. I like having a red energy color (especially since I can color the whole blade a blood red color from Accents, YAY)

Eh you can go to the weapon attachments tab to change the sugatra colors...

[T40Productions]

22 hours ago, StreamBonker said:

**cut for length**

I think that this is the best quote that I can level with throughout this entire forum discussion. I'm kind of ashamed for not being able to come up with the right words to describe what I feel about the skin, but this right here is it.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Trunks40

[Violet_Xe]

Ok so, i'm going to try to summarize this and this will be a wall of text but it will try to take in everyone's feelings for this, and i will try to make it as devoid of unnecessary commentary as possible. keep in mind this will sound aggressive and offensive at some parts and i'm sorry for that, please don't take it as i hate DE. i'm only trying to bring back some points and overview this discussion while bringing in everyone's feelings. and i'm leaving out quotes excluding maybe 1 or 2 because they take up so much space.

Lets start with the skin comparison themselves, We have a refined clean person and easy to color while retaining the fire theme while still taking a strikingly different look that appeals to many people. On the other hand we have a punk rock girl who has little fire but can also retain this fire theme, but leaning far more into a bird, this appeals to certain people but obviously not the majority. design wise they are both the same to color and can come up with great color settings, so all we have to look at are the base model. as brought up by Stream, all the deluxe skins are meant to look different, sure some of them can be similar kind of such as chroma still remaining bulky or rhino with the overall build, but they stray away enough of the vanilla model to make them special. this is what people classify as deluxe because it's a legitimate different take on a warframes personality with a different look and different 3D model. however people also want many different design choices if they look at the same frame all day, aka ember as she is one of the most used warframes and is popular for exterminates and grinding so you look at her a lot. which of these skins has more variation, the ignus version. Ignus instead of using fire, he manages to meld heat, obsidian, and lava into a his own style while retaining ember. people like the differance and how the 3D model looks, that's that. Ember ignus had no Mohawk but you decided to put one on, you always do this with certain frames, nyx has the backwards hair, saryn is starting to have hair, ember always has a mohawk, and nova always has these jets. there are things we like to break, want proof. look at the other deluxe skins, valkyr has a completely different look and now looks like more of a cat, it sold great and hooked peoples internists, nova visage while retaining the little jets broke normal conventions with her appearance, taking the signature away from her jets and put it on her skin itself. Banshee as well had these things where she still retained the theme, had a different 3D model, sold well, and looked amazing. they all had their 3D model changed and broke their normal theme but retaining it at the same time. but you know what people see with this? 

        Ember Vermillion          Ember                                    Ember Prime                          Ignus Ember (DE)

1. Floppy Mohawk         Frozen Mohawk                      Fire Mohawk Mohawk            1000C Mohawk challenge
2. Plainish Front             Plainish Front                         Plainish Front                         Plainish Front w/ complex details          
3. Shoulder Plates         Rounded Shoulder Plates       Bladed Shoulder Plates          One Obsidian Shoulder
4. Weird Legs                Weird Legs                              Weird Legs                             Detailed Legs
5. Symmetrical              Symmetrical                             Symmetrical                           Asymetrical
6. Bird Inspiration          Bird Inspiration                        Bird Inspiration                       No bird jokes
7. Large legs                 Bird Cage Legs                        Golden Bird Cage Legs         Obsidian Leg and Detailed Leg

These are features of the skins DE has for ember that they made. all of them cover giant portals of the body and are defining features. Take the colors off of the deluxe and it basically became the normal ember prime with a few extra details and shading. If you look over these other deluxe skins they have different defining features, many of them that separate them from their vanilla form and seem to have a personality that separates them from that. Some people like this skin, and that's alright, they don't like much change, but most people will be drawn to the giant change of personality for ember. Ignus has a completely different 3D model to start with, she lacks a Mohawk, doesn't have chunky legs, asymmetrical, and uses more lava than fire. For those who think of this as a sexy type of thing, then shut up and go look at tennogen, we have tons of skins coming from there with skin tight and there has been no fight over that so this is completely invalid, sale wise it would also be wise to appeal to the majority, they are a company and they have restrictions in what they can do, but obviously if they can release his mag skin then that point is completely mute. Some people hate how her helmet looks but like her body, others are against the fact that she has so many feathers making her look too much like a peacock or a rooster. Some people will also hate her just because of these feathers even though it is was defines this skin, just because it makes her look like a hybrid of hitsusan's zephyr skin and vanilla ember. not only that there is so little fire on this skin that just half the ember prime mohawk has double the amount of fire on the vermilion skin. and she carries delicate looking fire earrings, for a rock star. that's not very fitting and i get that they can break away from theme, but it's a complete contrast to the skin they are trying to make. Plus the chicken and bird joke for ember is still there, if deluxe skins are meant to show a different personality of a warframe, why does the same joke still apply to vermilion as obviously the people below this one are joking about and back in previous pages? my personel favorite was 

On 11/2/2017 at 5:40 AM, (PS4)chibi_matatabi said:

oh right, the fire chicken is out, it looks like a wukongs color scheme put on a combusken from pokemon...

For those who side with the fight of it should fit the frames original theme, DE obviously doesn't care much about that since they came out with a religious Buddha nova skin and let the visage skin in. there are others i can re quote but i won't extend this more than i need to and they haven't said anything with a change of heart such as " we will now make them based off the warframes theme". the arguments of master of fire and such don't really matter much , if at all, because of that. the skin itself is meant to entertain and make money, there is nothing else there. Now for a counter point, if it was meant to stick true to the warframes ascetic, why does she look like a peacock or rooster as so Delta, Nitro, and many others of us have pointed out.

Ember players and other players like to have options for their frames, do you know why character creation is such a big deal with players even though it's cosmetic? because we can express ourselves through how our character looks. if we cannot play the way we want and still express ourselves we will hate that portion of the game, and this is obvious but that's horrible. We get you want to stick with a theme and we want to aswell, but we need you to break enough away to give us as many options for our warframes as possible, the chart above has something in common with one another. they all have the same exact look and base model. even tennogen ones are forced to use base ember as the model which usually makes them share the same design details of vanilla ember such as the rounded shoulders and mohawk. if you add a mohawk, a plain front to every skin for ember, she doesn't feel like someone we can express ourselves through which hurts since she is a popular and highly used frame. the skin that broke this was the majesty ember skin which had a complex front and no mohawk, but she still looked like ember. we want things like that, things that still suit ember but are branch off enough to suit our personality, something ignus managed to capture perfectly with his skins. I am aware however some people dislike ignus's skins. However with those of us who take a mimic approach as aggp calls us. since we like to make our warframes look like different things, it feels like were forced to choose a bird, why are we forced into this. because she looks like a bird and only a bird. Someone also thought that people were overreacting about the ember vermillion around page 36, people can get incredibly passionate about what they like and if that's taken away from them it drives them insane. this is for a lot of players, customization in warframe is another one of it's defining features. Some people also thought about playing ember again because of the concept YOU told them to get hyped about, only to turn them down. other players didn't really care for ignus's skin but are on the offensive of this skin for the simple reason of they think it looks horrible such as FISTOROBAT0 on page 44. Large different groups of players are going against this skin for many many many special, unique, and varies reasons.

Many people don't exactly dislike the skin but how DE went about it by showing Ignus's version first, if just released by itself maybe the Ember vermillion would have been accepted but after being teased with Ignus's version and being indirectly promised on Devstream 84 that we would get it, that now hate the ember vermilion due to a personal grudge, again not good for business. and it doesn't help at all they decided to compliment and praise the skin and then deny the skin without telling us the reason for it. what legal reason could there possibly be to not use it. Plus as someone stated there was an obvious awkward silence upon showing the new ember vermillion for the first time, you knew this would cause a massive amount of controversy, so tell us... why?

Another thing i put in from before is that some people see this as a punishment like hypernaut on page 39 and quite a few others, myself included. while it may not be an intentional punishment, it feels like and and indirectly is one. It's a punishment to players who asked for this skin nicely, to those who waited for the skin, those who are passionate about art and liked the original, and the artist themselves. This action DE caused will also effect players in the future as they have to deal with this skin instead of the ignus one, the new players. Then DE is shaming us for sharing our opinions where megan is "disappointed". most of us wouldn't have an issue with this if you released the other skin, or released it later. even if you confirm it in the next year at least we would still wait, i mean hey we are starting to get mad about the zephyr but we still have waited over 2 years for it, if there's one thing were good at, it's waiting patiently when we have a reason to wait. hence War Within and us making the joke SOON. we can laugh it off but not forever. on page 26 -Kyle- said to make the ember skin the community deserves, we waited a year for it and then we get this, don't you too agree we deserve it or something like it?

Another thing Genoscythe brought up on page 34 and Q Voltage on 32 was that DE is using tennogen as a shield for ember but the fact remains some people cannot afford tennogen, not only with money but with time and patience. Yes there are some amazing skins for tennogen but those also take time, something we all have limited time in, same for money and patience. Tennogen can make amazing things but some people cannot afford to wait and pay. A defining point of warframe that separated it from most of the games in it's wide spread genre is the fact that you use to be able to get everything without paying, excluding prime accessories. but now tennogen has been added to this as we cannot buy these incredible top tier skins with plat and instead are forced to use money. This chains into another argument where tennogen is platinum on consoles but not on PC so they can get EVERYTHING with plat. making it unfair to us. using tennogen as a shield is unacceptable as an excuse for DE an only added more people to the side of hating this skin. Using tennogen as a shield is not only unacceptable but dumb in general due to the fact that based off the trend we have seen so far, no more skins for ember will come out unless they are tennogen, if you care deeply about how your ember looks and want her to look great, then she seems like a pay to play, but only to those certain players. there are also players like Vagnar on page 31 along with others that say it's just one skin, but the fact remains this is the last skin for ember we can buy for plat and it came out with a mohawk, and not just any mohawk, it's the worlds biggest mohawk. the only way to escape it is though tennogen and spending 6-9 dollars on a skin without a mohawk. and the entire point of there will be tennogen stuff for ember is not only bad, but it also works in our favor. tennogen is the best possible way to show what the community wants since it comes literally directly from the community. notice how there is a tennogen one without a helmet? that means some of us DON'T WANT IT!

To make matters worse the DE member that was selected for this was a crowd favorite DE megan, an ember fan who plays her alot. This reminds me of something Rebecca had replied to about void's data mining. where DE picks the best possible person to lure people on their side and hoping that works instead of giving us a legitimate reason and an interview of the person who isn't letting it through. then to the naming and shaming part... oh boy, *censored and remove all RevXDev* *Void was threatened to be sued* those are maybe a bit of a stretch buuut "our beloved ray who is a speed demon, an angel of sculpting, there was a-" obviously isn't a name and shame. One for this is when steve said the following on twitter "@petrus_nunes,@rebbfordf, @Playwarframe, @moitoi, @Digital Extremes, @GooseDE, why? should embrace all the racial, homophobe crap? no thx at 11:35" and even some of the people you are partnered with such as mogamu, quite shy, etc etc name and shame. they are part of your company so no, you do name and shame. everyone does. that being said naming and shaming can also be a good thing, if used right. it's not always bad, some people should take responsibility for their messes. and to top it all off her choice of words was far from what they should have been, you made probably more than half of us feel like our constructive feedback at the start or those of us who put in constructive feedback in general feel unheard. that DE is what you call feeling 

On 11/2/2017 at 1:02 PM, [DE]Megan said:

 

 

truly disappointed

As for constructive feedback some people feel like you just need to add another skin in for ember which is where i and many others stand. we could give you feedback to make this skin better but constructive feedback doesn't fix something we hate overall even though we do give you feedback, such as Shad0wWatcher on pg 23 and I previously questioned, why does every helmet for ember need a mohawk? overall we have to like certain parts of it for it to be able to be fixed, shadow likes the body and many others do where as some people are 100% against it but we still give you feedback. unknow99 from page 31 said to rework the skin about, read the following. as for people saying just scrap it, in their mind it's perfectly reasonable to say that and i agree, because you can't give constructive feedback if you can't find anything to like about the skin, from the feet to the mohawk it's all wrong for them. A Lot of us also see that there was effort put into this and others don't, we recognize that you put love into it. i love art and so many others do. we love your art style, sometimes. those who are fair cannot defend you, if you cannot give them a reason to and cannot give them a reason why you cannot release the skin. i am one of those people who REALLY want to defend you but i have to be on the offensive side of this.

As i stated beforehand a lot of us know we are also spoiled, way back in normal warframe this would have been amazing. but now we are use to ignus's skins and the amount of personality, detail, love, flexibility, and creativity of his skins crush the ones you make DE. not to put you down but firing him was horrible since we are use to the amount of detail and passion in those skins, the skins you yourself put out are too basic now. our expectations were raised. while we know that it's hard to break away from that. i'm pretty sure that's what a lot of people are thinking of when they think this is a bad skin, because they compare this skin to that of rhino or mag.

but however spoiled we are now, i'm sure everyone might like to know why it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to use the concept, the entire story from start to end. If you actually have a reason, a legitimate reason then you have nothing to fear at all as it would crush any and all arguments made on here. but as of yet we have seen none and probably will continue to see none. we hear creative differences and that's it? as Weidro on pg 27 and so many others pointed out, you had no issue releasing the mag deluxe skin after ignus was fired, and yet you cannot release ember. shouldn't we have details as to why? who was involved? again name or shaming is acceptable at certain times.

There is an obvious amount of disdain for this skin and i don't think it's very smart of DE to just ignore this and pass it on, after all still after looking up ember deluxe vermilion comes up at fourth with ignus's version coming up at the first three spots along with a ton of the ember deluxe fan art following with the ignus model. if there is fan art of a skin you indirectly promised it should have come out and if it doesn't there better be a reason which i will repeat, you have not given us the reason for why it isn't out. you only said it was a legal reason. 

Day one access is given to those who are warframe partners and want the day one access, but i don't recall deluxe skins ever being mentioned in it, i will delete this portion of ti if i'm wrong. but i heard DK in one of his videos that he was given the nekros and ember collections for review purposes. basicly a bribe to talk about these skins, he did give honest opinions on it but that's not what i'm focusing on. DK was given the skins for review purposes, a desperate attempt to get people who watch these youtubers to like the skin because DK and others support the developer. If youtubers advertise it and talk about it, it gets popular. you can see they were scared about it.

The deluxe packs now and voting with your wallet. a giant falling point on your skins. you can say that we can vote with our wallet, but we can also vote with time... we have time and patience like every other creature and living thing. You force us to buy things in packs or only the main skin which ticks off so many of us. This has happened with prime access, prime unvault, christmas and day of the dead, and deluxe skins. There are also people like aggp who enjoy the skin, but imagine now if he hated it. he's a collector and many others like him are the same. People who hate the skin but are collectors need to break their values of the game and not buy it, or buy it. and when this happens there are weird results. 

The weird results are as follows, there are people running around with this skin for many reasons, i see some who actually enjoy it, good for them, they get a cookie. but others are just trying it out to see if they can fall in love with it only to fall flat, some buy it to see if they can gain a new view of the skin, to fall flat, others buy it because they are collectors and cannot help themselves, some will buy the collection for the syandana or the gun because that's the only way to get it, and others just buy it because they try to white knight and protect DE.or perhaps they will be like Stream who buy it just to support you. these things produce false sales and you cannot say everyone who buys this skin actually enjoy it. the people who actually enjoy this skin are probably far lower than the people who own it. a giant factor in angering people is that when they try to do this to protect you but then hate it or try to like it then die on it, will hate you for it because they wasted their currency on something they will never use.

weird results aside there are people who like the skin and again i respect that, but DE even those who like the skin still have their own issues, Rhundis on page 32 who is a supported of your skin, thinks there isnt enough fire. perhaps add more more to the tips of the feathers for her arms and legs?

Ignus wants to rebuild the bridge and rejoin doesn't he, so he shouldn't be holding back the ember deluxe, the only other party that an deny the skin coming in then is you DE. None of us deep down want this skin to go away since of course some people enjoy it, but putting in this ember deluxe skin would set a really positive tone for you DE and it would help improve the lifespan of your game if you corrected it. The reason of using their artwork is a giant slap to the face may be for most people, but then why did the pneuma collection come out with mag after firing ignus? and as stated, he wants to come back and is sorry for screwing up.

Taking an example of Heroes of the storm, i heard from MFPallytime there was an artifact system that was removed completely, they were willing to remove a system to better the game because the community wanted it gone. As Dark Prince Duke said on page 26 it isn't too late to start over or even better keep that one in and start a new ember skin that we all would enjoy like ignus's version. or perhaps you could go over and update/revise it a lot, making it more polished. be like the HotS team DE be like you were when you Added focus into the game, Endo into the game, Be like you were when you reworked Archwing. How about Parkour 2.0 or modding 2.0 change and add where it's needed like you did before, just now do it for a cosmetic since it can damage your rep. refusing to do so without a logical reason is childish and puts a stain on your company. In games that constantly evolve new players will look back and explore finding your conflicts. examples are Ember vermillion, Banshee Suprana, RevXDev, and others. these are not good for your business and you listen to us, we know that. But in the end your a company who needs to make money to continue to do what you love, appealing to us should be the #1 on the list. For such a small team you have set standards that are unbreakable to other games and can hook players with lore when those players don't even care for the lore. Keep that reputation growing and growing.

Something else DE needs to learn is the fact they cannot tease something and not expect people to want it. it's literally drilled into us to want and take, and that's only reinforced when you say to us the "concept is approved" and then not give it to us for unknown reasons. You have made this mistake several times with teasing. it's something you tend to fall into a lot. Ember vermilion, Excal Umbra, War Within. these are major faults with our teasing. 

We are not entitled to these types of things but DE has made a game based off of community feedback to a large extent and we expect that to continue. we expect to have a say in the matter and recently we just haven't had a chance to fight back or correct them in anything because HEY YOU'RE GETTING THIS BE HAPPY. as seen with when they shows a completed ember vermillion, completed POE during tennocon, Completed Nekros, and way back the Completed Nova Asuri. not all of those are bad obviously PoE was great and nekros is ok for me but it just to prove my point. . we haven't had a say in a large majority of the things and that can be really infuriating when stuff like this rolls around. when a game is based off feedback, we expect to be able to give feedback on a topic. that's why the concepts were so nice, because you know what i saw when banshee concept and loki concept came out? tactical potato and aggp made videos talking about what they liked, stuff that was able to be changed. DE can do what they want but it isn't smart for them to roll around and do whatever, it's their game, we all had the option to read the terms of agreement. they own our accounts, but that doesn't stop us from trying to help the game and push it forward, sometimes pull it out from a hole, such as right now with ember.

Business and management i am not all too familiar with but as a i stated before and in here people who make games put themselves to the whim of the players, or more specifically the investors. There are those who will buy the skin for many reasons to protect or to try it out, but you cannot always just rely on them trying it out because one of these times people will not buy it, what if one of these times people decide to abandon the new content and the game starts it's massive panic and starts withering. above all the players opinion matters and it matters even more in a  feedback based game. if heroes of the storm of overwatch didn't have any feedback they would have died out a long time ago simply due to the fact that unique games require the constant updates, balances, and new content to keep themselves going. Like destiny as well. many people feel destiny 2 is a carbon copy of destiny one in it's current state. i'm not an expert on this stuff since i don't do much research on destiny 2 but Skill up wasn't very happy with it and he played all of the expansions. Destiny 2 will probably evolve like warframe and destiny 1 have. these games require, i cannot say this enough REQUIRE peoples feedback. if a game can pull this off correctly and keep hooking in players with this type of community and development crew they literally cannot fail at all. note that i said if they can constantly keep doing it, which DE has been starting to falter in for a year now.

Advertising stuff and not completing isn't exclusive to zephyr right now as stated it previous topics, and while i want to ignore that i said would overview. Zephyr deluxe skin has been in development, sentient arm cannons are also still missing. Tenno pump action shotguns are still somewhere out there, events only come once in a blue moon, and umbra is still on the moon somewhere and perhaps one of the oldest and probably forgotten about weapons is the bladed fan melee weapon and magnetic nef anyo and the corpus spider droids. you cannot fight about zephyr and ember being teased without talking about all of those since they all share the same waiting time. not going to dance anymore in that topic since i didn't read much into that maybe i'll go back into there eventually.

AGGP also has this thing which says "love nothing, everything is subject to change." a lot of us try but this is usually put into terms for mechanics and systems, i am kinda on the offensive about this skin and really want ignus's version and others feel the same i'm sure. other hate it with a passion. This line can be used both ways, i hope that this changes and some frames can get a second deluxe and another chance, because if DE messes up the one skin that most people like or scrap one that people like, etc etc, then that's is their one shot at it. this line when compared to mechanics makes a lot of sense because while people can become emotional about their tonkor and zarr blowing up massive crowds then getting nerfed, this isn't a mechanic, it's a cosmetic and form of expression. There are reasons games like Black desert online are popular in their genre, it can be because of lore, but it is also referred to as the king of customization for their genre. it's important for us to be able to change ourselves and how we look. so i how the feelings DE now has about ember deluxe are "subject to change" and will change for everyone's betterment.

This community isn't garbage when it's fighting i actually like it and dislike it, it shows the diversity in between us and what we think is better for the game, if DE can ignore those who only put in attacks and focus on those who want to help it along they are rich in ways to branch out and expand in a way games like them can only hope to achieve.  I've been a part of this game for about 3-4 years now and i am still madly in love with it and i don't want to see it fall just because of a skin. i don't think it will fall just because of this alone but every fault and mistake in the game shortens the maximum lifespan of it. i want this game to continue to live on for a long time and for that i want to correct everything about it i think i can help with. This post from me is meant to put constructive feedback on the skin, talk about issues right now and in the past of warframe, and point out issues with DE themselves that all relate to this skin while summarizing everyone's thoughts, a giant wall of text but hopefully less than 46 pages.

I get this was a topic about ember but as stated by Uriel it's impossible to talk about Ember deluxe without bringing in other issues since it relates so much to them. Please also note that i do have a friend who likes this skin, i respect his opinion on the matter and his color choice even though it's someone weird to me, but he still likes it. so i do know some people like it for a fact and some people aren't just white knighting, but we would still like the old skin as well.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Violet_Xe
i think i'm done, i'll keep checking around if i missed anything though.

[(XBOX)Babadookcf]

Well one thing's for sure is that the chicken meme lives on and seems like ember will never get out of it. 

[Aroe95]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)Babadookcf said:

Well one thing's for sure is that the chicken meme lives on and seems like ember will never get out of it. 

Sad truth for ember tho... Only tennogen can save her now but it'll cost you

[OnuaMasterOfGaia]

i think most of the poeple agree that ember deluxe looks like a chiken right

 

[KennBone]

rgith.. dont know why a fire waframe had that " strange " look 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

7 minutes ago, OnuaMasterOfGaia said:

why does ember deluxe skin looks like a chiken

i think most of the poeple agree that ember deluxe looks like a chiken right

Because it was supposed to be Zephyr Deluxe

Edited November 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[xXDeadsinxX]

A badass looking chicken.

[GordoFreeman]

Ember design was always compared to a chicken, because of the mohawk. That being said, this chicken looks hot

[Wharrgarble]

Basic Ember looks like a chicken too. Look at the clawed feet, the legs, and the crest. She was always a fire chicken, which is cool.

[blacklusterseph]

I think someone pointed out that her imagery aligns with the Chinese Phoenix which looks more like a rooster than the phoenix in Western mythology. In terms of western mythical creatures she could also be inspired by the Cockatrice although the fire motif doesn't seem to be common amongst the interpretations of that creature.

[Fylas]

25 minutes ago, blacklusterseph said:

I think someone pointed out that her imagery aligns with the Chinese Phoenix which looks more like a rooster than the phoenix in Western mythology. In terms of western mythical creatures she could also be inspired by the Cockatrice although the fire motif doesn't seem to be common amongst the interpretations of that creature.

I'm pretty sure a cockatrice would only work on a fematlas and you do not want to see that being a thing XD

[MeiWIZ]

DE pls do someting

[Hypernaut1]

People are using the skin. This entire thread is regulated to whole lot of entitled noise.DE will take note to ignore the vitriol next time and go with what they want.

[DeltaPangaea]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People are using the skin. This entire thread is regulated to whole lot of entitled noise.DE will take note to ignore the vitriol next time and go with what they want.

Yes, because what the players want is irrelevant.

Don't disregard people's opinions so lightly. If this many people are opposed, then there has to be a legitimate reason for it.

[Hypernaut1]

21 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Yes, because what the players want is irrelevant.

Don't disregard people's opinions so lightly. If this many people are opposed, then there has to be a legitimate reason for it.

Players want the skin. They're buying it

[DeltaPangaea]

25 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Players want the skin. They're buying it

And how many? How many compared to how many bought the other skins? How many are just buying it for collection' sake? How many are buying it ironically? You need numbers before you can say 'Well actually people liked it stop complaining'.

So far all we have is people's opinions on the forums and in region chat. And far as I see, the vocal response is largely dislike.

Dislike for different reasons, mind. Some people really wanted the Ignus skin. Some people like myself just straight up hate the rubber feathers and overzealous mohawk.

I'm not saying they should get rid of it, people who DO like it are entitled to their opinion and shouldn't be punished for those opinions, but a lot of people feel lied to and ignored over this whole debacle.

And yet all we've had the devs say on the matter is 'be nice, people put effort into this' and 'It's been kind of up and down' on the stream. No concessions from DE. No acknowledgement of people's feelings on the matter, they've been very quiet on the whole thing.

Add in to this the fact that they HAVE the rights to the Ignus skin and total freedom to use it, it makes people feel like it's just someone's personal feelings having gotten hurt which roadblocked it and got us this...

The whole thing is a mess. But you shouldn't just say people are whining.

EDIT: Oh yes and let's not forget "This isn't the end of skins for Ember, there's always Tennogen" like that was some kind of actual solution.

Edited November 16, 2017 by DeltaPangaea
Oh Boy Tennogen

[Streambonker]

13 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Players want the skin. They're buying it

Well, I only have anecdotal evidence, but me buying the skin has NOTHING to do with me wanting the skin. Read my post in the previous page. Some buy the skin cause they want to have everything, some have too much plat, some like the skin and some just want to support the Developer of a game they love.

If you consider that there are 48 pages of posts on this subject and the surrounding confusion, drama and lack of communication, it's pretty clear to see that a large vocal part of the community dislikes the skin. To the point where they bother to come to the forums and make their aversion to it known and heard. For 48 pages.

I do not know about you, but I have not seen a forum thread have this much discussion, posts and consensus for a loooong time.

As others have mentioned have mentioned, hiding behind the Tennogen shield is an ineffectual move from DE's side. Tennogen skins cannot change the shilouette of the warframe or the model itself, just repaint it (albeit in very creative ways) and put a helmet on it.

After so much discussion and outcry from the community, it is very disheartening to hear.. or rather not hear anything from DE. Megan posted ONCE, telling us that the artists worked very hard on this skin, which I do not doubt, and that people should be more considerate of the artists and their feelings. We were encouraged to give our feedback in a positive and constructive manner, befitting of our friendly and helpful community. Many constructive, helpful, understanding and kind posts have been made, with suggestions, questions, confusion, explanations and solutions.

And yet DE remains silent.

Edited November 17, 2017 by StreamBonker
Had to change the number of pages and some semantics due to my post being on a new page of the discussion.