Ember's Deluxe Skin Feedback

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Saying "we're working on a Zephyr skin" and then not making it for 2 years is not the same as announcing and marketing the new skin as a reason to invest into Warframe. They are two completely different things. 

Merely saying? No. Literally working on and having marketed Zephyr for two years, as well as letting the designer develop it at their leisure(They blatantly admitted this.), is counter to your belief in how this actually works. Just admit you were assuming and don't actually know what you were talking about.

Edited November 9, 2017 by UrielColtan

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

It actually has less to do with me wanting the original deluxe skin and more to do with the fact that this skin is simply terrible. I always thought the deluxe skins were an amazing opportunity to go above and beyond and make a very unique and beautiful design/look to a frame, a chance to go above and beyond. So when I think "oh my god, Ember, the fire warframe, wow I wonder what they'll do for her deluxe skin? Maybe she'll have cool fire effects! Or maybe part of her frame will be made of fire!" But no, we got a big chicken.... I don't care if the original deluxe skin is used or not. Just not this big Mohawk chicken. What a dissapointing "deluxe" skin for he fire elemental. Nothing about it is exceptional or astounding. It's just a different shaped ember model with a chicken head..

[-Kyle-]

So, they show the first concept in the Devstream and after that they decide don't use it?

And they show the new concept, don't listen the community and release it?

Nothing makes sense.

I don't like, so I'll don't spend my plat, sadly, because I like fashion frame, Ember is one of the most popular warframe and old, I expected a skin more to her level.

This deluxe looks more a tennogen than a unique deluxe skin, the body is the prime body with these weird feathers.

Edited November 9, 2017 by -Kyle-

[GTX49]

The quality of their deluxe skins and the looks of their recent warframes have degraded a lot.

I don't know what is going on with that, but they need to step up their game in art.

[Legion-Shields]

Just now, GTX49 said:

The quality of their deluxe skins and the looks of their recent warframes have degraded a lot.

I don't know what is going on with that, but they need to step up their game in art.

I think they should slow down and go back to the more basic designs of the early frames. Gives the players more room for Fashionframe, and makes the vanilla models more unique. They've been making their designs more and more complicated and it's starting to have bad side effects.

[-Kyle-]

1 minute ago, GTX49 said:

The quality of their deluxe skins and the looks of their recent warframes have degraded a lot.

I don't know what is going on with that, but they need to step up their game in art.

They're brilliant to creat new warframes design and the new primes, looks amazing... But Deluxe Skin is not a DE thing.

[GTX49]

Just now, Legion-Shields said:

I think they should slow down and go back to the more basic designs of the early frames. Gives the players more room for Fashionframe, and makes the vanilla models more unique. They've been making their designs more and more complicated and it's starting to have bad side effects.

Yea true.. look at the new warframe concept they announced.. it looks like a futuristic fish net

[TheBrsrkr]

20 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Merely saying? No. Literally working on and having marketed Zephyr for two years, as well as letting the designer develop it at their leisure(They blatantly admitted this.), is counter to your belief in how this actually works. Just admit you were assuming and don't actually know what you were talking about.

Oh? Where's the recent concept art? When was  the last announcement for that skin? When was the last time Zephyr got.....anything really? "Mentioned in a devstream and a forum post" isn't the same as marketing. 

[Sasori4Q2]

Where there is love...there will be "hate". 

If you like it, it's fine by me...But when I am busy with the BBQ and the meat is not ready yet.... Don't turn off the heat!

Maby if we burn it long enough it will mold to something else :D

World is not on fire yet.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

I personally like it, but I created the thread because people were hating on it, which is perfectly fine, but hating on the skin while giving no feedback isn’t the right way to do it. Constructive critisim is the right way to do it.

As people keep pointing out to you, there was a truckload of feedback on the skin, most of it negative. DE dis not merely ignore the feedback, they rushed the skin out unchanged as fast as possible.

 

I know you don’t like people criticising DE, but they made a bad call.

[xXDeadsinxX]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

As people keep pointing out to you, there was a truckload of feedback on the skin, most of it negative. DE dis not merely ignore the feedback, they rushed the skin out unchanged as fast as possible.

 

I know you don’t like people criticising DE, but they made a bad call.

Yeah...I guess you’re right.

[UrielColtan]

56 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Oh? Where's the recent concept art? When was  the last announcement for that skin? When was the last time Zephyr got.....anything really? "Mentioned in a devstream and a forum post" isn't the same as marketing. 

 

Merely mentioned? No, you are, to put it bluntly, utterly wrong, or might as well say the same for Ember Vermilion deluxe, which was mentioned in a devstream prior to release, meanwhile Zephyr has been shown in several.

 

 

 

 

Blatantly conveying that they allow all the time in the world to work on a deluxe skin, at their leisure.

Edited November 9, 2017 by UrielColtan

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

 

Merely mentioned? No, you are, to put it bluntly, utterly wrong, or might as well say the same for Ember Vermilion deluxe, which was mentioned in a devstream prior to release, meanwhile Zephyr has been shown in several.

 

 

 

 

Blatantly conveying that they allow all the time in the world to work on a deluxe skin, at their leisure.

Since I can't cut up and edit this post you'll just have to deal. 

 

The first one is the presentation of the concept, as they do for any skin. Something you already knowm

The second is the planned release schedule of the skins in question, in which they said Zephyr would be last. Again, not marketing, not a date announcement, just a list of order. 

The last is, as you say, the person in charge presumably slacking off. 

 

You missed the important parts of my post, which said specifically not JUST mentioned in a devstream and more importantly RECENT. If a date of release was mentioned, even if just a month or a quarter  instead of vague terms like  last or soon,you would have a point. No such thing is mentioned. 

 

What you fail to grasp here is that a devstream is meant for players, not marketing. Marketing doesn't market to you, you're already playing and possibly paying. There is no point. You get those announcements in the game. Marketing goes to those who wish to join the game, who need incentive to play or rejoin the game. That's because marketing costs money and resources, and must not say anything that is not definite. If you market that the Zephyr skin is coming in December, and it doesn't, you lose the players that would come expecting a feature that isn't there,   and you would have to pay to re-market the skin at a later date, both of which are things that mean less money. 

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Since I can't cut up and edit this post you'll just have to deal. 

 

The first one is the presentation of the concept, as they do for any skin. Something you already knowm

The second is the planned release schedule of the skins in question, in which they said Zephyr would be last. Again, not marketing, not a date announcement, just a list of order. 

The last is, as you say, the person in charge presumably slacking off. 

 

You missed the important parts of my post, which said specifically not JUST mentioned in a devstream and more importantly RECENT. If a date of release was mentioned, even if just a month or a quarter  instead of vague terms like  last or soon,you would have a point. No such thing is mentioned. 

 

What you fail to grasp here is that a devstream is meant for players, not marketing. Marketing doesn't market to you, you're already playing and possibly paying. There is no point. You get those announcements in the game. Marketing goes to those who wish to join the game, who need incentive to play or rejoin the game. That's because marketing costs money and resources, and must not say anything that is not definite. If you market that the Zephyr skin is coming in December, and it doesn't, you lose the players that would come expecting a feature that isn't there,   and you would have to pay to re-market the skin at a later date, both of which are things that mean less money. 

Nah, you were just wrong about scheduling dates, I just proved that they choose at their leisure when to release, and you simply thought they merely mentioned Zephyr deluxe, as opposed to showing any of Zephyr deluxe concept and model progression, and were apparently not actually making it.

"Saying "we're working on a Zephyr skin" and then not making it for 2 years " 

Just own up to being wrong.

What "marketing" of Vermilion Ember was done before it dropped, outside of devstream? No date was actually given for it either, and they even said there would be flames all around her mesh, which was apparently a lie. You know what really cost money? Resources and time spent modeling, which has been happening with zephyr going on 2 years. You do realize that the ignusdei Ember was also scheduled for modeling yet they chose to not do it (IE, "changed at the drop of a hat") and waited a whole year to release this new thing right? This strict schedule excuse is utter pseudo intellectual, business poser fanfiction and spin. There comes a point where you got to reign in the white helmet and realize you have it on backwards.

Edited November 9, 2017 by UrielColtan

[Anthraxicus]

On 08/11/2017 at 5:50 PM, DeltaPangaea said:

I mean, I'd still be annoyed. I'm not even attached to the Ignus skin that much.

I just really, really dislike the peacock.

I joined the game two and half months ago. I wasn't even aware of the skins, ignusdei or anything for that matter. Then. during a defense mission, I saw two of my squadmates talking about Ember deluxe skin. One of them said:

"If the deluxe skin is that one DE showed during stream, I won't buy it. It looks like a peacock, and it is ugly."

Then I got curious and google Warframe Ember Deluxe Skin. The very first thing that showed up was Ignus design and I didn't understand why those guys were saying it was ugly...certainly not a peacock. I thought it was a great skin. Then I saw that modified version (not DE's knife, the other one with fire coming out of the arm) and thought it was even better. Finally, the skin was released, and only then I understood what the guys were talking about on chat.

Damn, even this fan art looks incredible

Spoiler

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Anthraxicus

[TheBrsrkr]

53 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Nah, you were just wrong about scheduling dates, I just proved that they choose at their leisure when to release, and you simply thought they merely mentioned Zephyr deluxe, as opposed to showing any of Zephyr deluxe concept and model progression, and were apparently not actually making it.

 

Not only is this wrong, it is irrelevant. They can choose at their leisure when to release...... Before marketing. If you say something is coming on July 28th, and it doesn't come on July 28th,then you wasted money marketing it, wasted time developing or hiring the marketing, and possibly disenfranchised new players from joining the game. I never said that they didn't release anything on Zephyr, I said that A Devstream is not marketing. 

To simplify, let's think of this with regards to the Warframe loading  screen. If you go on right now, you can see Gara and an overview of what she does and what she is based on, along with where to get her in the patch notes. Now if this was there before release and someone is like "boy howdy! I'd spend some money to kill people with a samurai looking chick!" and they came to the game, only to find that a week before DE made her look like Khora, DE will have done false advertising. This player will no longer be interested in the game, because they didn't get what they wanted. Even if they showed the change the day it came out that it was changed on the Devstream, the player still did not get what was marketed. 

53 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

What "marketing" of Vermilion Ember was done before it dropped, outside of devstream? 

None. That's the point. There was no marketing done on what the skin would be, but there was marketing for when the skin would come out. You asked for an Ember skin, you got an Ember skin. 

55 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

. You do realize that the ignusdei Ember was also scheduled for modeling yet they chose to not do it (IE, "changed at the drop of a hat") and waited a whole year to release this new thing right? This strict schedule excuse is utter fanfiction. 

The "strict schedule is only put in place  after you set up marketing. Why would you pay money to advertise something a year in advance from when you actually finish it, when you have no discernable knowledge of what could happen in that time? This is especially true for Warframe now because Ignusdei left. 

Being scheduled for modeling is not being scheduled for marketing.  It is a strictly internal issue for DE, not their investors and advertisers. Marketing has to do with finished products, as it should be (but not always is).

 Also, Ignusdei left on the 13th of December, and as I came here stating, using someone's artwork after they leave is not something you do. The changes suggested to the artwork were still based on the artwork itself to such a degree that it would still be considered his, to an extent. So they had what I would think from the end of November to release date to create something new if they didn't have a template before. 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

. There comes a point where you got to reign in the white helmet and realize you have it on backwards.

What I would suggest is that you look at how marketing works and how you get someone to invest in your company. 

[Marvelous_A]

This deluxe skin is the only chance Ember can officially escape from a damn mohawk yet DE insisted to add it back (on top of that they make it the largest mohawk ever in Warframe history like WTF?) which is what I hate the most. Screw mohawk.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Not only is this wrong, it is irrelevant. They can choose at their leisure when to release...... Before marketing. If you say something is coming on July 28th, and it doesn't come on July 28th,then you wasted money marketing it, wasted time developing or hiring the marketing, and possibly disenfranchised new players from joining the game. I never said that they didn't release anything on Zephyr, I said that A Devstream is not marketing. 

To simplify, let's think of this with regards to the Warframe loading  screen. If you go on right now, you can see Gara and an overview of what she does and what she is based on, along with where to get her in the patch notes. Now if this was there before release and someone is like "boy howdy! I'd spend some money to kill people with a samurai looking chick!" and they came to the game, only to find that a week before DE made her look like Khora, DE will have done false advertising. This player will no longer be interested in the game, because they didn't get what they wanted. Even if they showed the change the day it came out that it was changed on the Devstream, the player still did not get what was marketed. 

None. That's the point. There was no marketing done on what the skin would be, but there was marketing for when the skin would come out. You asked for an Ember skin, you got an Ember skin. 

The "strict schedule is only put in place  after you set up marketing. Why would you pay money to advertise something a year in advance from when you actually finish it, when you have no discernable knowledge of what could happen in that time? This is especially true for Warframe now because Ignusdei left. 

Being scheduled for modeling is not being scheduled for marketing.  It is a strictly internal issue for DE, not their investors and advertisers. Marketing has to do with finished products, as it should be (but not always is).

 Also, Ignusdei left on the 13th of December, and as I came here stating, using someone's artwork after they leave is not something you do. The changes suggested to the artwork were still based on the artwork itself to such a degree that it would still be considered his, to an extent. So they had what I would think from the end of November to release date to create something new if they didn't have a template before. 

What I would suggest is that you look at how marketing works and how you get someone to invest in your company. 

"I would suggest you look at how marketing works"

Psuedo-intellectual business poser speak. I guess that is a form of marketing, ironic-ly enough. Lying is indeed a big part of a lot of marketing, which is a big part of why marketing is not beholden to finished products at all, actually. Not that Vermilion ember was even changed after showing it, this is even after telling people she was going to have fire around her mesh(lying.).

What kind of investors and advertisers do you think DE is adhering to when they change schedules at the drop of hat, and can decide when a skin comes out? Clearly ones not overly concerned with specific deluxe skins. Its the audience, who will be giving them money specifically for that, who are more concerned with that. DE is not some triple A shop, its basically a glorified indie studio, and they run things in wildcat fashion, not strict schedules or mass marketing, they've relied more on community advertising than the typical foray, and el cheapo banners for the most part. Where have you seen advertisement for the Vermilion skin outside the game and streams after release even?

Their general advertising has been for Plains of Eidolon, even put up the dosh to advertise it in Time Square. Vermilion Ember? Not so much. 

No set schedule or time frame was given at all for when Ember deluxe was to be, and you have no proof of obligated marketing schedule either.

Basically, all I am seeing from you is a bunch of unsure assumptions, meanwhile I present what DE has said and done, inadvertently or not. Its pretty clear they are beholden to what the art team feels like releasing, in regard to deluxe skins.

Its funny you mention Ignusdei's firing date too, seeing as they still went ahead with his Harka and his Pnuema skins, and still sell his other skins.  Keep spouting a meme that not even Ignusdei buys though.

Edited November 9, 2017 by UrielColtan

[Broodmoe]

 

Can't peoples have their own opinions ? 

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

If you dont like it, dont buy it.

I have been dissapointed at many of the delux skins comeing out, and this is no diffrent.

I am glade they are no loner timed exclusives, but none of them interest me anymore. that might change, but if the same style is used for most of them then ya.

Tenno gen has been makeing better stuff anyhow.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

30 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Its funny you mention Ignusdei's firing date too, seeing as they still went ahead with his Harka and his Pnuema skins, and still sell his other skins.  Keep spouting a meme that not even Ignusdei buys though.

Legally I dont think he "owns" the artwork considering he was working for DE. Even if it was under a commison, he would have had a contract that would bind him to the company, along with anything he produces for it. it would be similer to an NDA stating that he cant do similer work for another game company within X years of no longer being at the company. in exchange, he would probibly get a royalty on the work that is in use as compensation for not being able to work for similer companies. that last part is probibly why they changed everything past a specific point, to protect themselves from a suit and not have to pay him more.

At lest thats how it works in the Engineering business. It could in some cases put the company at risk from competitors but that is probibly more so on the teck industery side then artist side.

Also to further your arguemnt agenst the person you qouted - you would market something in advance to creat interest and hype, as well as test out interest. you cant start sales without a market and marketing is much more then just advertising. I do think that many of the skins have been a bit odd looking and I dont like them, but they would have had to go thouhgt an approval process. we also have to remember that this is a world wide game, so there may be a region where this ember skin is very populer comapred to our own. 

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Fluff-E-Kitty

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

I believe that people are angry with the ember deluxe skin because it looks lazy,  it looks like they really had to release it and that concept was there so they took it. They actually said on prime time that we didn't need to buy it that there was and would be amazing tennogen to buy instead, that's the same thing as WE ARE SORRY  WE MESSED UP.

[VocalMagic]

Hating the skin stops when the skin stops being terrible.

That will happen when accessories come out that go well with the skin.

Alternately, when the skin is completely forgotten people will have forgotten what they hate.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

Why not just release both 

[UrielColtan]

28 minutes ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

Legally I dont think he "owns" the artwork considering he was working for DE. Even if it was under a commison, he would have had a contract that would bind him to the company, along with anything he produces for it. it would be similer to an NDA stating that he cant do similer work for another game company within X years of no longer being at the company. in exchange, he would probibly get a royalty on the work that is in use as compensation for not being able to work for similer companies. that last part is probibly why they changed everything past a specific point, to protect themselves from a suit and not have to pay him more.

At lest thats how it works in the Engineering business. It could in some cases put the company at risk from competitors but that is probibly more so on the teck industery side then artist side.

Also to further your arguemnt agenst the person you qouted - you would market something in advance to creat interest and hype, as well as test out interest. you cant start sales without a market and marketing is much more then just advertising. I do think that many of the skins have been a bit odd looking and I dont like them, but they would have had to go thouhgt an approval process. we also have to remember that this is a world wide game, so there may be a region where this ember skin is very populer comapred to our own. 

 

I didn't say he owned it, I was responding to the comment about "you just don't use someone else's art after they leave."

Indeed, Ignus seems to suggest that he does not own the concept and that it is DE's to use, so I do not know how he would be able to sue or is even considering suing if that was their agreement.

Furthermore, Ignusdei seems to suggest that he has not been restricted from contributing elsewhere either, so I don't think that was part of any NDA.

As for royalties, they released his Mag deluxe just recently,  I am hard pressed to believe its over concern for possibly having to pay him more royalties.