current state of ember

[Fionntan]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

So let me clarify something, please.

You see a lot of embers participating in timed low level content like alerts, invasions, fissures and syndicates and you are concerned about the fact that the player base picked the path of least resistance considering obliterating large quantities of low level enemies? 
What a horror, we should always struggle to kill level 20 grineers in large quantities.

Again, that wasn't the topic at hand OP wanted to bring. *Is not nerf ember thread*

Just open discussion on how to *improve* her kit in some shape or form that isn't *only* low level content.

Wouldn't be great to see her more often in let say Sorties? 

[redeyedtreefrog]

the way ember is right now, she's going to be a great frame for clearing out hordes of small enemies while also staying fully mobile, and will stay as such unless her WoF is removed entirely or nerfed to the point that it's a senseless energy drain.

As disappointing as it is to spend an entire exterminate mission behind an ember with an ignis and get maybe 1-2 kills at maximum, there's nothing that can be done short of a full ember overhaul to fix it.

I feel like it would be a more interesting opportunity for ember's abilities to be based more around mobile cc. For example, say WoF automatically staggered enemies and distracted nearby ones, and with firequake it would knock them on the ground and ignite them, causing them to enter a panicked state that leaves them vulnerable to ground finishers for a longer period of time than usual. Even if the damage is lowered on WoF, that would still make it a pretty good ability, but I really don't see a damage nerf solving anything here. 

[phoenix1992]

3 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

Again, that wasn't the topic at hand OP wanted to bring. *Is not nerf ember thread*

Just open discussion on how to *improve* her kit in some shape or form that isn't *only* low level content.

Wouldn't be great to see her more often in let say Sorties? 

Proper tool for the proper job. I would not run Sparky the squishy on Grineer or Corpus, sorties because this is the point. I mean, sure - I can, hell I can even do enough damage to warranty it, but it is fitting a circle in triangle hole just for the sake of it.

Edited August 30, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Fionntan]

4 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Proper tool for the proper job. I would not run Sparky the squishy on Grineer or Corpus, sorties because this is the point. I mean, sure - I can, hell I can even do enough damage to warranty it, but it is fitting a circle in triangle hole just for the sake of it.

Then we can agree it would be great if somehow Ember had skill isn't only flesh units or somehow have her contribute to the team a bit more than just burn away and pray it dies.
Some spice to the mix of already limited kit. (example: open finishers, CC, element mixing)

Edited August 30, 2017 by Fionntan

[phoenix1992]

7 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

Then we can agree it would be great if somehow Ember had skill isn't only flesh units or somehow have her contribute to the team a bit more than just burn away and pray it dies.
Some spice to the mix of already limited kit.

You underlined the *squishy* part but you ignored it all together. Ember is bad VS corpus because of nulifiers, Ember is bad VS Grineers because they can sniper her down outside of WoF radius. The damage itself is not an issue, as long as people don't start chanting "we all want to do flat % damage", and we don't ignore the actual use of Firequake post 60 enemies.

PS: If you know what Flesh type armor is, you know the Corrosive and armor scaling leaps of logic from DE's side. There are not many things for which I want't to actively critique them, but DMG 2.0 in post 60 enemies is hilariously bad and you can't make all frames do corrosive or flat % just to combat this issue.

Edited August 30, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Szilvia]

I would like to see her on higher level aswell so maybe she need a rework again but I know she got some reworks and tweaks in the past but there could be a way to be less annoying on low levels and useful on higher.

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

She's cool.

Sometimes you don't wanna pew pew.

But it gets boring fast so you wanna pew pew again.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

i specifically stated that i personally think she doesnt need a nerf... did you even read the thread? im just asking the comunity what they think.

Oh my fault, it's the weekly passive aggressive "this isn't a nerf Ember thread, but Ember needs a nerf"... Post.

[Fionntan]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

You underlined the *squishy* part but you ignored it all together. Ember is bad VS corpus because of nulifiers, Ember is bad VS Grineers because they can sniper her down outside of WoF radius. The damage itself is not an issue, as long as people don't start chanting "we all want to do flat % damage", and we don't ignore the actual use of Firequake post 60 enemies.

I see, tbf though examples above can be said by any other squichy frame if they lack a way to mitigate damage or some form CC or self heal (like Banshee relying on quake only).

Anyhow, my point wasn't the damage issue or her WoF needs a nerf, just add her other skill sets in a way to make her do more than what she already does.

Also, after re-reading OP I realize whatcha meant: yea shifting her 4s damage on her other skills isn't the best approach to say the least.

[Xgomme]

Her current state ? Worst design ingame

 

She's basically here to overkill medium content, and will be a meh cc or clunky buffer for high level.

And all those builds are passive and boring, best thing you can do to stay active is to just use your meh cc and fire buff, and rely on your weapons.

 

The design of WoF should be toned down to something with small % of life of the mob each tick, so you won't overkill anything but it will work everywhere. And make those ticks stack some fire charges one ennemies, so when Ember use 3 or 1 the charges will explode. Switch 3 and 4 and buff 3 on the go too

With a synergy like this similar to Saryn or Nova, a tweak on her 1 (I would like a combo based one, with 1 fireball>2>big meteor) the frame would be way more active to play but you keep everything you had before (except maybe the full afk mode, for sure)

 

On top of that put a fix to "buffer augments" like her 1st augment, and instead of aiming a team mate create an UI with all your mates portraits, click the one you want to buff, done.

[Sziklamester]

If I may be honest I would prefer to balance all frames on starmap plus high up to lvl 100 enemies the frames without mods. After that there could be useful the right modding but the frames are different and each frame live short without mods and there are huge gaps. There could be some option to change the scaling to fit for an unmodded frame at least up to level 50 after that the enemies could be difficult because those are out of the area of limits.

 

In a last thread I argued with peoples how ember ruining low level gameplay for relaxing peoples, casuals and for newbies whom will just see this and learn how to be selfish in the game. I don't want nerfs at all only when there is not better solutions but I prefer instead the buffs and tweaks or rarely total reworks when a frame out to date or cannot fit to the role anymore. Ember can do a job on low level and many peoples use her to just rush a mission and kill fast but she is not a tool and other frames not a tool. In lorewise they are but in reality for a player perspective these created for fun and not for simple tools which do a job. I don't like the one trick ponies and specialists because they are generally suck in everything except one area.

Ember can be more powerful if her abilities or at least 1-2 of them could scale with the level or she can get more buff or more cc. Her ultimate can decimate low to medium level enemies instant or fast enough to not give a chance to peoples to kill anything. The problem is this and how to make frames to be balanced to each others and how not ruin others gameplay. Hard job and very hard to exceute but there are some idea how can be done.

On forums you can find a lot, we now talking about solutions too and ideas how she can be better while doesn't ruin others fun. She have a lot of potential in damage scaling cause she have heat damage built in and if her ultimate and her first could scale with levels then more ore less embers can move up some grade and harrass higher level enemies and they probably won't be seen soo often on lower levels. Also there are opinions that say she is fine as it is but certainly not fine if on lower levels they kill everything from others. The problem is the game is all about killing things and the kill is important personal counter to determine you are good or not enjoy the game or not. Also there are frames and playstyle where not matter the kills and not everytime need to kill but when you in row with embers or any nukers on your relaxing runs then you probably will be annoyed. 

There are peoples "remember an old thread" where a person asked if he/she can play the game without a single kill. This is only possible if he/she carried but after they introduced the new beginner tutorial there is no option to stay clear. Also the game is fun if you can race with others just a little with the kills it is a natural thing and no need to be selfish or say those peoples are proud diks.

I play often supportive roles and sometimes kill a lot or over kill my concurency. I try to not kill steal others prey and as much as I can I try to use my abilities only when really needed and not spam them. There are a normal level of ability spam but there are peoples whom always turned on and hard to do any useful on the mission. Pretty much noone play the game for a walking simulator and pretty sure nobody likes when cannot kill a little bit. It is not about you are selfish because asking for a little chance to kill is not selfish but there are peoples whom counteract you because you not effective as them.

 

Also this thread not full without ember mains so maybe I summon some of them.

@Andaius @BornWithTeeth

[Sloan441]

2 hours ago, (PS4)varas2110 said:

Litteraly falls of damage wise on missions 60+ without the fire quake Aug, even then it's just a sad DOT that opens peeps up to ground finishers except all the important ones like big guys and eximuses so yeah, good for star chart clearing but not good for late to end game

Pretty much this.

She basically does one thing with a bit of variation in the details. She burns stuff and can knock stuff down in a PBAoE fashion. That's it.

She's good for clearing lowish level enemies and is a good choice for interceptions. She begins to have issues at around lvl60. This makes her good for clearing the starchart without too much drama and good for farming interceptions for relics. She's decent in excavations as well, assuming you stay in the vicinity of the excavator. This assumes you're running Fire Quake.

Could she use a rework/rethink on abilities? Yeah, she could--but she's had several and she still remains an intermediate level 'frame at best. Is she useful as is? Yes, she is, within limits. Is she annoying in low level missions? Yes, she can be. Does it matter? Not really.

[(PSN)varas2110]

1 hour ago, Fionntan said:

A bit confused but is this suggestions for rework or pointing out what she does atm? 
 
If the former I might let this fly as a rework, if the latter then pardon my derpness. 

Suggesting, the index part is true tho,  enemies are open to finishers while panicked 

[phoenix1992]

8 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

On forums you can find a lot, we now talking about solutions too and ideas how she can be better while doesn't ruin others fun. She have a lot of potential in damage scaling cause she have heat damage built in and if her ultimate and her first could scale with levels then more ore less embers can move up some grade and harrass higher level enemies and they probably won't be seen soo often on lower levels. Also there are opinions that say she is fine as it is but certainly not fine if on lower levels they kill everything from others. The problem is the game is all about killing things and the kill is important personal counter to determine you are good or not enjoy the game or not. Also there are frames and playstyle where not matter the kills and not everytime need to kill but when you in row with embers or any nukers on your relaxing runs then you probably will be annoyed. 

... 
First thing first - read trough this article please. If you think that any issue is resolved by "trowing more numbers at the wall" after that... 
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

But let's return to the "game ruiner".
This is the most selfish and entitled attitude for a game that promotes heavy customization and min maxing. "I am MR 5, I do not know of primes, rivens, corrupted/primed/nigthmare mods or for some reason chose not to pick them, them big bad AoE nukers (a position that is actually needed in a Horde rush like warframe) are killing things too fast in *timed alerts*.

Let me give a small heads up. If it is not ember it will be rush Volt. If it is not Volt it will be Equinox. If it is not Equinox it will be Rants that Nova makes the game "anti fun" with her big scary "molecular prime" that is capable of wiping the map. Then it will be valkyrie (because we have to speak about valkyrie each 4 weeks) . Because somone does not have fun.

Considering end game scaling of Ember output... You want an ember main? Does 40% of 1.3k in steam and atleast 1k more outside of it suffices? Or my experience is not validated because exactly "I am ember main".

[Fionntan]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)varas2110 said:

Suggesting, the index part is true tho,  enemies are open to finishers while panicked 

Huh, I did notice when Ember use it enemies look like they are open to finishers like Inaros does with his sand pocket so wasn't sure if it was already a thing.

Alright, then thanks for clarifying. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Fionntan

[Sziklamester]

13 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

... 
First thing first - read trough this article please. If you think that any issue is resolved by "trowing more numbers at the wall" after that... 
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

But let's return to the "game ruiner".
This is the most selfish and entitled attitude for a game that promotes heavy customization and min maxing. "I am MR 5, I do not know of primes, rivens, corrupted/primed/nigthmare mods or for some reason chose not to pick them, them big bad AoE nukers (a position that is actually needed in a Horde rush like warframe) are killing things too fast in *timed alerts*.

Let me give a small heads up. If it is not ember it will be rush Volt. If it is not Volt it will be Equinox. If it is not Equinox it will be Rants that Nova makes the game "anti fun" with her big scary "molecular prime" that is capable of wiping the map. Then it will be valkyrie (because we have to speak about valkyrie each 4 weeks) . Because somone does not have fun.

Considering end game scaling of Ember output... You want an ember main? Does 40% of 1.3k in steam and atleast 1k more outside of it suffices? Or my experience is not validated because exactly "I am ember main".

Welp. Thank you for reading through my post and quote the least interesting part. +1

The last part meant to be involved to this topic two ember main person whom I know who can contribute more to the subject. Rémes vagy.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Sziklamester

[phoenix1992]

11 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

Welp. Thank you for reading through my post and quote the least interesting part. +1

Did you read the enemy scaling, or you still think that giving more flat damage to ember will fix the issue?

*oh hello there Hydro rework, nice to see that now you do both corrosive damage and flat HP% damage*

Edit: So it won't be just "barking" DMG 2.0 and its interations came out in U11 - late 2013/early 2014.  This was long before Law of retribution (update 16), sorties (update 18) or.. you know Fall 2017 with 21.6. Damage fall offs are symptoms, not the main issue.

Edited August 30, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Fionntan]

1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

PS: If you know what Flesh type armor is, you know the Corrosive and armor scaling leaps of logic from DE's side. There are not many things for which I want't to actively critique them, but DMG 2.0 in post 60 enemies is hilariously bad and you can't make all frames do corrosive or flat % just to combat this issue.

DMG 2.0 flaws is another can of worms to deal with, yes in some shape or form Ember suffers from it however it leaves two options:

1. Ember gets tweak or overhaul to meet needs in DMG 2.0 or teamplay.
2. DMG 3.0 happens and maybe then Ember won't need to be reworked.

I personally doubt the latter will happen and more than likely may get the former instead.

Since I'm betting that rework is more likely to happen I add my 2 cents on how I feel about the frame current state.

Adding corrosive and flat % is one way to do it, although I'm not asking for such a thing and I know there can be other ways to spice her kit w/o the need to cheese her even more.
 

In short, I feel her kit needs a polish, tweak or overhaul, which ever benefits the most. As to how, I'll let someone else set examples or ideas down the road.

While Ember does the job of clearing low popcorn mobs at the moment, I feel she has potential for more; no I am not asking in a way so I can main her since this is game all about using the right tools but I cannot deny she has potential for possibly other uses than just burn enemies.

[PH0T0Nman]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Ah, the weekly "ember stole all my kills in a low level star chart mission" ember nerf thread

Ah, the classic "didn't read the actual topic like a fool" post

[Andaius]

Ok here's my build on my "Always on" WoF I'll just list stats since I'm too lazy to post screenshots right now.

Dur: 96% Eff: 160% Rng: 145% Str: 155

What that ends up on for WoF is 620 heat damage over range of 21 meters. with 54% status. Compare it to Fireball: it also does 620 heat damage with a 232.5 area damage.

Some one in the other thread mentioned that a lvl 20 Lancer has 1000 HP.  It get no bonus to alloy or ferrite armor.

Now compare to my "ultimate power" build to get as much Str as possible to get as much damage per tick as I could.

Dur: 13% Eff: 110% rng: 145% str: 275%

With this We get WoF with 1100 heat damage same 21 meter range, and a 96% status what what changes is it's now up to 5.25 drain instead of the previous 1.2. Fireball again is 1100 with 412.5 damage. So with this My ember's energy pool of 563 (only have 225% primed flow at the moment) So in order to kill a level 20 lancer in 1 shot I've limited my energy pool duration down to 1.7 minutes of use. Well that's to kill 5 lancers a tick I guess.

If your looking at low level, you can't really compare because your working with such low numbers you can kill hordes and hordes of enemies with pretty much anything.  My Soma can crit for 5K and shot through 3 enemies or something like that and shoots way more then 5 rounds a second. Hell my Tigris prime does something like 39596 damage added together it hits stuff in a cone and can punch through 3 people a pellet too.

The point I'm trying to make is at low levels everything is OP as long as your using mods. Anything that does AoE or punch through will be doing the same thing as Ember on low levels. All some one has to do is move a little a head and stuff dies so fast just using automatic weapons can "kill steal" anyone that stops to pick stuff up or get's lost or caught up on terrain.

My personal play style when I do Ember is I'm always moving around using most of my abilities. Fireball when reloading, Fireblast into groups of mobs and using accelerant to do the CC and to take down the heavy units faster.

 

So TL:DR IF your not going to completely remove all AoE abilities and weapons and punch through on weapons Everything is OP in low levels.  So why are you just picking on 1 frame's 1 ability?

 

*This is going by lancer hp that some one mentioned in another thread and my memory of said numbers if some one who knows "real" number is to pipe up s owe can compare this with what was said it would be appreciated. Numbers I've used are directly off my stat screen.  Also just did the Catalyst alert vs level 25 grineer with armor mitigation I was hitting level 25 troopers with about 420 heat damage out of the 620 listed if we go by the number that pop up in game. It looked like it took 2 ticks of WoF to kill them. (420 heat x2 floated over the bodies)*

Edited August 30, 2017 by Andaius

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

The state of Ember is "silly." She's a one-trick pony, but she does that trick really, really well. And, she's excellent for the "Get X Kills while Wall Hanging" rivens. Unfortunately, she's fairly dull otherwise. Pretty, but boring. 

[phoenix1992]

29 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

Adding corrosive and flat % is one way to do it, although I'm not asking for such a thing and I know there can be other ways to spice her kit w/o the need to cheese her even more.

Let's humor those ideas.
1. Ember does Mostly fire with one of the abilities hitting for corrosive, for example fireball - There will be a small diffrence on the possitive side, but the question arises - do I not have weapons? Why should I use energy spender to apply a status with small range?
2. Ember goes full Chroma and does various type of damages - Beside the screeching issue that Diversity is a main selling point of the game - WoF will become incredibly powerful.
3. WoF goes full corrosive - Ember will actually become weaker from that. She will not be a DPS anymore, she will drop the favorable position against infested, while still retaining the squishy issue.

Okay, okay let's change the WoF modifiers then
1. It has fixed duration - this is a massive buff to the ability due to multiple reasons, but on the top of the list is - Ember as of right now trades Auto target big range Fire DPS, for locking herself out of support frames. The only 2 ways to regain energy while WoF is active is Syndicate proc or energy drop from enemies. If it becomes standard duration cast, it will just empower it way too much and enable usage of mods like Blind Rage (and Rage itself) with less repercussions.
2. Line of sight - fiddly at best, if LoS is limiting WoF, it will just kill the frame. 
3. Changes on Cost - will not change the "it ruins my fun" in lower levels, but it will be hard nerf in higher.

[Andaius]

3 hours ago, DarcosRoyal said:

"Ember is a nightmare for light-armored targets. Ember can super-heat the air which opens up surprising crowd-control possibilities." ~Codex

She is supposed to be a aoe dps. Her abilities are:

• Passive (Ignition) : Ember gains 35% Power Strenght and regenerates 10 energy every second she is ablaze (Heat proc)
• 1 (Fireball) : A fire projectile similar to Volt/Frost. If you want to change it you should also think that there are a lot of frames that have almost same ability with some tweaks. -The augment gives allies Heat buff damage 
• 2 (Accelerant) : The ability that is used to enchance her 4. -The augment gives allies casting speed and Heat buff damage
• 3 (Fire Blast) : An aoe that deals damage and creates a ring of fire -The augment causes enemy to panic 
• 4 (World on Fire) : An area of effect Toggled Ability that deals damage. - The augment knockdowns enemies

She needs reliable efficiency/range/strenght (Most frames need only 2 stats). Can be built as an above-average crowd control.

What do you want to change ? Why do you want to change it ? Why Equinox can do everything she does and you aren't talking about them ? Why Ember players are always the first that go ahead ? 

All her abilities do heat damage so her 2 boosts everything in her kit. :)

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

The state of Ember is "silly." She's a one-trick pony, but she does that trick really, really well. And, she's excellent for the "Get X Kills while Wall Hanging" rivens. Unfortunately, she's fairly dull otherwise. Pretty, but boring. 

 

Well then you can say the same for all the "elemental" frames.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Andaius

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

3 minutes ago, Andaius said:

All her abilities do heat damage so her 2 boosts everything in her kit. :)

 

Well then you can say the same for all the "elemental" frames.

No argument there. It's just how the elemental frame do. 

[SDGDen]

hmm... funny how when you ask people they dont give the classic "hurr durr nerf cuz ember in squad sux".. from what im reading in this topic most people are saying rework/buff... with some people wanting to keep her the same because they need their cheese to survive. all in all very interesting. i kinda hope DE reads this.