current state of ember

[Andaius]

2 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

hmm... funny how when you ask people they dont give the classic "hurr durr nerf cuz ember in squad sux".. from what im reading in this topic most people are saying rework/buff... with some people wanting to keep her the same because they need their cheese to survive. all in all very interesting. i kinda hope DE reads this.

I'm of the mind that they have to fix the ridiculous scaling at high levels and damage scaling before trying to adjust anything. Because if you have abilities that are wiping level 80 guys you have abilities that are doing just the same with level 1 guys.

[phoenix1992]

4 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

hmm... funny how when you ask people they dont give the classic "hurr durr nerf cuz ember in squad sux".. from what im reading in this topic most people are saying rework/buff... with some people wanting to keep her the same because they need their cheese to survive. all in all very interesting. i kinda hope DE reads this.

Don't you dare speak about cheese to survive while Shadowstep in the game.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Don't you dare speak about cheese to survive while Shadowstep in the game.

That's my favorite cheese, though! So sharp, so smooth, so melty. 

[Andaius]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

That's my favorite cheese, though! So sharp, so smooth, so melty. 

mmmmmm...chedder

[Kinetos]

22 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Don't you dare speak about cheese to survive while Shadowstep in the game.

If you have to mention every type of cheese in every thread just to make sure you aren't misunderstood that just because this particular thread is not about that kind of cheese therefore you endorse it, every single post on the forums would be the size of a wiki, and no one would be able to to find anything in the massive mess. If that other thing is also cheese it belongs in its own topic because it is not related to this one. 

[BornWithTeeth]

Hello @Sziklamester

 

I'm tickled to be summoned in here, but cool, here goes:

 

Ember is pretty fine right now, and in those areas where she is deficient, I certainly would not go so far as to request a rework for her, because any such rework would most certainly do more harm than good.

 

Like a schoolboy writing an essay, I'm gonna slap this right under three headings, and tell you what those headings are right at the start.

 

"Ember ruins fun through wide area destruction at low levels!" Pffff.

 

Ember: Goddess of Crowd Control, Attended On Left And Right By Her Murder-Angels Of Axe And Shotgun

 

DE Will Only Give Ember Scaling Damage As A Consolation Prize After They Ruin Her: AKA Reworks Are A Devil's Bargain

 

 

Everybody on board? Cool.

 

"Ember ruins fun through wide area destruction at low levels!" Pffff.

Right, as people have pointed out, if DE remove Ember's ability to do this, then two weeks later there'll be threads demanding the removal of Equinox's Maim, and chances are that it will be some of the exact same people whining and missing the point. Then it will be the Atterax and other whip weapons. This is a daft position to take, chaps, and a stupid hill on which to die. In fact, it's barely even relevant to this discussion. I could happily live without Ember's ability to nuke entire rooms, as that's not what I use her for. Her wide area destruction is a side effect of her true role, and the damage she causes is basically a carrier/vector for that. What is this true role to which I allude?

 

Ember: Goddess of Crowd Control, Attended On Left And Right By Her Murder-Angels Of Axe And Shotgun

Right. Ember has a couple of the best Augments in the game, and a power kit which is sweet, self contained, and efficient to use. Her Firequake Augment means that at Warframe's true level _{(which is the second and third Sortie missions. Hard facts, which are the truth. Warframe's real level is around level 70-100, with a Sortie Condition.)} the way she works is that Ember exists at the centre of a circle of enemies who can't fight effectively because they have a doctor's note saying that they're on fire. At this level of the game, it is the truth that her powers aren't doing the killing. This is why you play Ember as a short ranged executioner, wielding weapons like massive damage-per-shot shotguns, or the Disco Deathblender. You can alternatively go for a finisher build using her earlier powers, and regardless of what you're doing here, her Accelerant ability is amazing, because it buffs fire damage and improves your casting speed for your other abilities. Ember, when built for duration and efficiency, is one of the very best crowd control 'frames in the entire game, where her abilities weaken and disrupt enemy formations, allowing you to charge in and be amazingly effective as a close ranged combat 'frame using your weapons for damage output. She also reliably procs Fire status on enemies, which combines neatly with newer Status builds.

"But wait," I hear you call, "Why don't we just scrap that and make her into a DPS 'frame instead? With scaling damage?" 

 

DE Will Only Give Ember Scaling Damage As A Consolation Prize After They Ruin Her: AKA Reworks Are A Devil's Bargain

Right guys, here's the deal: DE's most recent forays into the field of making Warframes scale have been problematic in the area of actual gameplay. Nidus and Octavia scale well, but their gameplay is a complete snoozefest. Nidus has to spam his '1' every five seconds in order to remain useful, and Octavia's kit is a cooldown management simulator where you just hammer buttons and let a drum do all the work.
                      Then there's Hydroid's rework, where they cut the range of his abilities in half and built everything into his puddle. His puddle eats high level enemies in a fashion which is completely spectacular...in the Simulacrum, and much, much harder to actually pull off in a mission. Regardless of that, they've still given him scaling damage, but in a form which incentivises sitting still doing nothing. 

Basically, DE have this bizarre zero sum game mentality about how they achieve game balance. DE will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever give Ember scaling damage on her abilities without also taking her out behind the shed and ripping her kneecaps off with a power drill. As Ember stands right now, her kit is fast to deploy, rewards building for duration to affect area crowd control and her own speed of casting, and encourages mobility and fast paced combat. Absolutely none of that would survive a rework, because if DE reworked her, they'd probably give her scaling damage but at the cost of making her unbelievably clunky, energy inefficient, and reliant on deliberately spamming her powers to such a degree that her ability to function in a team would be destroyed.

 

So, no thanks. I like Ember. She works great. 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Ember: Goddess of Crowd Control, Attended On Left And Right By Her Murder-Angels Of Axe And Shotgun

Right. Ember has a couple of the best Augments in the game, and a power kit which is sweet, self contained, and efficient to use. Her Firequake Augment means that at Warframe's true level _{(which is the second and third Sortie missions. Hard facts, which are the truth. Warframe's real level is around level 70-100, with a Sortie Condition.)} the way she works is that Ember exists at the centre of a circle of enemies who can't fight effectively because they have a doctor's note saying that they're on fire. At this level of the game, it is the truth that her powers aren't doing the killing. This is why you play Ember as a short ranged executioner, wielding weapons like massive damage-per-shot shotguns, or the Disco Deathblender. You can alternatively go for a finisher build using her earlier powers, and regardless of what you're doing here, her Accelerant ability is amazing, because it buffs fire damage and improves your casting speed for your other abilities. Ember, when built for duration and efficiency, is one of the very best crowd control 'frames in the entire game, where her abilities weaken and disrupt enemy formations, allowing you to charge in and be amazingly effective as a close ranged combat 'frame using your weapons for damage output. She also reliably procs Fire status on enemies, which combines neatly with newer Status builds.

^^This the way I use her.  Except I added more Power Strength.  I like this method as it provides team support also with Flash Accelerant.  Doesn't hurt that it also allows me to use Healing Return to face tank some enemies(hehe).  Her ganking lower level enemies is just a by product of this.  Then again, how many other frames don't totally gank low levels enemies also.  Hmmmmm.   

Edited August 30, 2017 by DatDarkOne
spelling

[Voltage]

Ember is not OP. I am not saying Equinox needs a nerf, but equinox is better than ember. The reason people ask for an Ember nerf is because WoF isn't the thing cheesing, it's Ignis Wraith with a high to top tier riven. Those don't need a nerf either. Players have invested into niche builds that are useful and they shouldn't be punished because people like you OP want fairness. Would you like Ember to go back to the way she used to be? No thanks.

[Andaius]

11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

^^This the way I use her.  Except I added more Power Strength.  I like this method as it provides team support also with Flash Accelerant.  Doesn't hurt that it also allows me to using Healing Return to face tank some enemies(hehe).  Her ganking lower level enemies is just a by product of this.  Then again, how many other frames don't totally gank low levels enemies also.  Hmmmmm.   

Man, completely forgot about healing return....Whats your setup with it?

[DatDarkOne]

15 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Man, completely forgot about healing return....Whats your setup with it?

I mostly use it on slash/high status weapons.  It just benefits more from Frames that have powers that add statuses to enemies.  Ember being a perfect frame for pairing with it.  I always put on two dual stat mods, usually going for the gas combo.  The other mods usually for weapon specific enhancements.  The only downside to Healing Return that it doesn't work too well on low level enemies because they usually die on the first hit.  Well, unless they already have a status.  

edit to example of build

Edited August 30, 2017 by DatDarkOne
edit to add picture of Venka Prime mods

[flameblastguardian]

My max speed volt + 20m scoliac left embers on my team with 0 kills. There are many better ways to speed clear and ember is not even close to being good. 

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, flameblastguardian said:

My max speed volt + 20m scoliac left embers on my team with 0 kills. There are many better ways to speed clear and ember is not even close to being good. 

You do realize that the main complaint about Ember is that she kills all the low level enemies and leaves nothing for newbies, right?  You saying what you did in that post isn't a good thing in this regard.  

[flameblastguardian]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

You do realize that the main complaint about Ember is that she kills all the low level enemies and leaves nothing for newbies, right?  You saying what you did in that post isn't a good thing in this regard.  

my point is even if you nerf ember, there will be other things ruining new players experience

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, flameblastguardian said:

my point is even if you nerf ember, there will be other things ruining new players experience

I missed that.  My apologies.  :D

[Knight_Ex]

14 hours ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

i specifically stated that i personally think she doesnt need a nerf... did you even read the thread? im just asking the comunity what they think.

Oh please, these threads are made at an attempt to get DE to "notice me senpai" and perhaps actually consider what is talked about, though frankly Im getting tired of seeing these threads, ember is the last thing on DE's mind right now, so shoo shoo go play higher level missions instead of gawking at the ember killing all the low leveled trashmobs.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Knight_Ex

[Sziklamester]

11 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Hello @Sziklamester

 

I'm tickled to be summoned in here, but cool, here goes:

 

Ember is pretty fine right now, and in those areas where she is deficient, I certainly would not go so far as to request a rework for her, because any such rework would most certainly do more harm than good.

 

Like a schoolboy writing an essay, I'm gonna slap this right under three headings, and tell you what those headings are right at the start.

 

"Ember ruins fun through wide area destruction at low levels!" Pffff.

 

Ember: Goddess of Crowd Control, Attended On Left And Right By Her Murder-Angels Of Axe And Shotgun

 

DE Will Only Give Ember Scaling Damage As A Consolation Prize After They Ruin Her: AKA Reworks Are A Devil's Bargain

 

 

Everybody on board? Cool.

 

"Ember ruins fun through wide area destruction at low levels!" Pffff.

Right, as people have pointed out, if DE remove Ember's ability to do this, then two weeks later there'll be threads demanding the removal of Equinox's Maim, and chances are that it will be some of the exact same people whining and missing the point. Then it will be the Atterax and other whip weapons. This is a daft position to take, chaps, and a stupid hill on which to die. In fact, it's barely even relevant to this discussion. I could happily live without Ember's ability to nuke entire rooms, as that's not what I use her for. Her wide area destruction is a side effect of her true role, and the damage she causes is basically a carrier/vector for that. What is this true role to which I allude?

 

Ember: Goddess of Crowd Control, Attended On Left And Right By Her Murder-Angels Of Axe And Shotgun

Right. Ember has a couple of the best Augments in the game, and a power kit which is sweet, self contained, and efficient to use. Her Firequake Augment means that at Warframe's true level _{(which is the second and third Sortie missions. Hard facts, which are the truth. Warframe's real level is around level 70-100, with a Sortie Condition.)} the way she works is that Ember exists at the centre of a circle of enemies who can't fight effectively because they have a doctor's note saying that they're on fire. At this level of the game, it is the truth that her powers aren't doing the killing. This is why you play Ember as a short ranged executioner, wielding weapons like massive damage-per-shot shotguns, or the Disco Deathblender. You can alternatively go for a finisher build using her earlier powers, and regardless of what you're doing here, her Accelerant ability is amazing, because it buffs fire damage and improves your casting speed for your other abilities. Ember, when built for duration and efficiency, is one of the very best crowd control 'frames in the entire game, where her abilities weaken and disrupt enemy formations, allowing you to charge in and be amazingly effective as a close ranged combat 'frame using your weapons for damage output. She also reliably procs Fire status on enemies, which combines neatly with newer Status builds.

"But wait," I hear you call, "Why don't we just scrap that and make her into a DPS 'frame instead? With scaling damage?" 

 

DE Will Only Give Ember Scaling Damage As A Consolation Prize After They Ruin Her: AKA Reworks Are A Devil's Bargain

Right guys, here's the deal: DE's most recent forays into the field of making Warframes scale have been problematic in the area of actual gameplay. Nidus and Octavia scale well, but their gameplay is a complete snoozefest. Nidus has to spam his '1' every five seconds in order to remain useful, and Octavia's kit is a cooldown management simulator where you just hammer buttons and let a drum do all the work.
                      Then there's Hydroid's rework, where they cut the range of his abilities in half and built everything into his puddle. His puddle eats high level enemies in a fashion which is completely spectacular...in the Simulacrum, and much, much harder to actually pull off in a mission. Regardless of that, they've still given him scaling damage, but in a form which incentivises sitting still doing nothing. 

Basically, DE have this bizarre zero sum game mentality about how they achieve game balance. DE will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever give Ember scaling damage on her abilities without also taking her out behind the shed and ripping her kneecaps off with a power drill. As Ember stands right now, her kit is fast to deploy, rewards building for duration to affect area crowd control and her own speed of casting, and encourages mobility and fast paced combat. Absolutely none of that would survive a rework, because if DE reworked her, they'd probably give her scaling damage but at the cost of making her unbelievably clunky, energy inefficient, and reliant on deliberately spamming her powers to such a degree that her ability to function in a team would be destroyed.

 

So, no thanks. I like Ember. She works great. 

 

 

Hello there! Thanks for your contribution to the thread. Every opinion count for me.

Also summoning @MagPrime to this.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Sziklamester

[(PSN)thehoocodfather]

The only people who complain about ember are those who dont have one and who are newish players meeting an ember being used by another newish player.

 

If they did then they would know that she is only good for low level missions.

 

Even then other warframes can make ember look useless.

 

Try playing against a well modded  range and power strength Saryn being used by an miasma ability spamming player

 

She makes ember look like a joke

 

 

[Fallen_Echo]

18 hours ago, Fezeal said:

As soon as i see a ember/ember prime in a group i find a nice safe little spot then go afk because its just terrible to group with, i feel bad for the newbies that are trying to have fun in the same level missions embers burn down.

And here we see the most useless player type in the whole game. Goes afk because he doesnt like what someone else is doing. You are the guy i constantly teleport out in the open with nova or pullhook with valkyr.

[Berserk-King]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

And here we see the most useless player type in the whole game. Goes afk because he doesnt like what someone else is doing. You are the guy i constantly teleport out in the open with nova or pullhook with valkyr.

Yep wich makes you no better, excuse me for not wanting to follow a guy around get no kills have no fun run to extraction bored as hell, your the type of guy that abuses people so your worse.

[MagPrime]

7 hours ago, Sziklamester said:

Hello there! Thanks for your contribution to the thread. Every opinion count for me.

Also summoning @MagPrime to this.

I just woke up, what's going on?

Oh, more Ember bashing.

Born covered it rather well, actually.  If DE does anything "about" Ember, she'll be horrible and people will still complain that someone else is ruining their fun.  There will be new "x Warframe is ruining my fun!1! :(" and then it will be on to the weapons and companions. 

A such as I detested this response about 2 years ago; make your own teams.  Stop going into public matchmaking and then getting upset that there is someone with a stronger loadout, a more mobile playstyle or they try harder than everyone else and you just can't keep up.  (Also, people who can solo a mission shouldn't be going into public and wiping the map clean in an inconsiderate manner, either)

Overall, the best way to fix this issue is to improve the matchmaking system so that it's easier to use and actually encourages and rewards players for using it.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

56 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I just woke up, what's going on?

Oh, more Ember bashing.

Born covered it rather well, actually.  If DE does anything "about" Ember, she'll be horrible and people will still complain that someone else is ruining their fun.  There will be new "x Warframe is ruining my fun!1! :(" and then it will be on to the weapons and companions. 

A such as I detested this response about 2 years ago; make your own teams.  Stop going into public matchmaking and then getting upset that there is someone with a stronger loadout, a more mobile playstyle or they try harder than everyone else and you just can't keep up.  (Also, people who can solo a mission shouldn't be going into public and wiping the map clean in an inconsiderate manner, either)

Overall, the best way to fix this issue is to improve the matchmaking system so that it's easier to use and actually encourages and rewards players for using it.

 

Ember Prime, modded for maximum Bullet Jump and airtime through her Exilus, Firequake, no Corrupted Mods, just high HP and a Vaykor Hek or Sancti Tigris for the executions and the periodic health regain, and using either Final Hack and Brunt or a Vaykor Sydon with Primed Reach and a hybrid Crit/Status sweep build incorporating Condition Overload. 

 

Welcome to the elemental murder disco of explosions. Somewhere in the centre of this fast moving tornado of fireballs, Blast damage, Viral and Corrosive procs, and massive crits is a jet black Ember with gold metallic trim. And she's awesome.

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Ember Prime, modded for maximum Bullet Jump and airtime through her Exilus, Firequake, no Corrupted Mods, just high HP and a Vaykor Hek or Sancti Tigris for the executions and the periodic health regain, and using either Final Hack and Brunt or a Vaykor Sydon with Primed Reach and a hybrid Crit/Status sweep build incorporating Condition Overload. 

 

Welcome to the elemental murder disco of explosions. Somewhere in the centre of this fast moving tornado of fireballs, Blast damage, Viral and Corrosive procs, and massive crits is a jet black Ember with gold metallic trim. And she's awesome.

I uh....i would like to try that out sometime.

[Kinetos]

9 hours ago, (PS4)thehoocodfather said:

The only people who complain about ember are those who dont have one and who are newish players meeting an ember being used by another newish player.

 

If they did then they would know that she is only good for low level missions.

Wrong. I have everything in the game basically, earned not leeched, and I think Ember is too easy at low level. I know her damage falls off, and there used to be a point to that, scaling was intended to kick people out. Scaling is neither fun nor engaging, lower level can be as fun, as long as its not made irrelevant by any frame. Ember is simply the most popular, not the root of the problem, scaling is. 

[SolidJames]

9 hours ago, (PS4)thehoocodfather said:

The only people who complain about ember are those who dont have one and who are newish players meeting an ember being used by another newish player.

 

What now? Am I allowed to complain about one of the easiest and most boring ultimate abilities to use, a frame that actively makes relic farming difficult by killing off all uncorrupted enemies before they can become corrupted? I made this image once from my own game with Ember Prime. It was a 20 minute survival mission with a full squad.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

On ‎08‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 7:58 AM, SupremeDutchGamer said:

so... lately all ive seen cheese wise is embers... although i personally dont think that ember deserves a reduction in power. just a little bit of rebalancing to shift power from her 4 to her other abilities. although id like to know. what is the comunities impression of ember. does she need a nerf? does she need a rework? does she need a buff? or is she fine as is?

2013 she was godly.  Overheat used to give her 95% damage reduction and WoF used to hit an unlimited number of enemies within her range.  2014 DE nerfed her into the ground.  Overheat was removed and WoF was given a duration and efficiency nerf, a range nerf, a DoT nerf, and a target number nerf.  2015 brought her back to half her previous awesomeness.  Folks complain that she's too efficient.  But those players didn't witness her during that year and a half stretch of awfulness, because nobody used her then.

In my opinion, leave her be.