Knockdown recovery for more sophisticated players

[Miburec]

A friend and I were wallowing in memories the other day about a game we used to play back in 2006: GunZ: The Duel.

I doubt that many of you ever heard of that game, but in a nutshell: It was a mainly PvP based korean MMO game which had an acrobatic gun-and-sword-playstyle to some degree similar to Warframe (imagine a more restricted Parcour 1.0 mixed with the dodge mechanics from Unreal Tournament). Being a PvP-Game, movement was key and being stationary for more than a second or two meant certain death; that's why knockdown attacks were so dangerous if they connected, because it pinned you to the ground for several seconds, leaving you completely helpless and vulnerable. But if you were unlucky enought to get cought by such an attack, there was still hope: The so called "safe fall".

Basically you could attempt some kind of a "recovery jump" by hitting the jump button on the exact apex of your flight. But this wasn't something you could achieve by just mashing your space bar. No, you had only a brief moment to do it and only one try to do it right.

And it made me think. We play as space ninjas, harnessing the power of the void and only so much as chuckle at newtons laws of motion while we do our gravity defying maneuvers but if we trip over we just fall to the ground face first like a toddler. Sure, Mods like Handspring speed up the recovery to the point where it becomes rather trivial. But what about an option to discard this bandaid mod by simply bringing twitch reflexes to the table and let you flip to a stand again the very moment you hit the ground? What about a miniscule time frame where you just need to hit the right button to give that Ancients hookshot the finger?

That whole apex thing wouldn't work. The knockdown moves in GunZ were highly exagerated, launching you several feet in the air before plunging back down. So we would need another fix point where this trick move could be applied. But for now I'm more interested in what you think of the general idea.

Mind you: I'm NOT talking about a button mashing mechanic to cheese any and all knockdown effects. I'm talking about a very limited time frame to pull off that trick with only one try. Something which requires practice and reflexes to do.

[NekroArts]

32 minutes ago, Miburec said:

A friend and I were wallowing in memories the other day about a game we used to play back in 2006: GunZ: The Duel.

I doubt that many of you ever heard of that game, but in a nutshell: It was a mainly PvP based korean MMO game which had an acrobatic gun-and-sword-playstyle to some degree similar to Warframe (imagine a more restricted Parcour 1.0 mixed with the dodge mechanics from Unreal Tournament).

I remember that game; parkour in that game was incredible when used in tight corridors, but geez was that game a button masher.

35 minutes ago, Miburec said:

Being a PvP-Game, movement was key and being stationary for more than a second or two meant certain death; that's why knockdown attacks were so dangerous if they connected, because it pinned you to the ground for several seconds, leaving you completely helpless and vulnerable. But if you were unlucky enought to get cought by such an attack, there was still hope: The so called "safe fall".

Basically you could attempt some kind of a "recovery jump" by hitting the jump button on the exact apex of your flight. But this wasn't something you could achieve by just mashing your space bar. No, you had only a brief moment to do it and only one try to do it right.

This would be very great to have, I'll be able to switch off handspring for something else.

I like to note that a lot of our parkour is free movement and having a "reaction" to a knockdown would feel more interactive when in combat.

[Keyan]

I really like this thought and it would definitely fit in with Warframe with our ninja reflexes.

[Gamma745]

I like the sound of this. Rewarding skill-based gameplay, and very in-line with Warframe's fast-paced nature.

 

Perhaps the window of opportunity will be right before we fall flat on the ground. As our Warframe head reach the ground, we hit spacebar to perform a backflip.

Just my small input on the idea.

[blazinvire]

Take a quick gander at the Ukemi mechanic in Soul Calibur games

[InanimateAlex]

This is a great idea as it doesnt nullify the use case of Handspring just means you can outmgrow it with practice and patience. Also why not go a step further give us timed recoveries for stumbles and staggers as well. I think everyone would apreciate more control in game

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

I think that would be a really great idea! I also would have to agree that it should be a split second move. I might add I'd also like to see a counter-blocking move perhaps on a mod that when you block at the right moment you have a chance to stagger the enemy. 

Something akin to Assassin's Creed. It could even provide you with a chance to open the enemy to a finisher attack. Or the mechanic could just be standard on all or certain weapons... 

The game needs a few more elements that involve timining and skill. Wouldn't it be awesome, like the op said, to be hit by an Ancient and instead of being knocked down, you could quickly jump or block at exactly the right moment to stay in the fight? 

I hate always saying this, but I remember back when wall clinging first came out , and was advertised as some incredible new feature. The only thing it's good for is spy missions when you need to time your jumps better, other than that... meh. 

Warframe needs a new feature that brings more skill back to the game. As it is now, Warframe is more of a "kill the giant mobs of enemies as fast as possible" game. 

So, what Miburec stated earlier. 

16 hours ago, Miburec said:

Mind you: I'm NOT talking about a button mashing mechanic to cheese any and all knockdown effects. I'm talking about a very limited time frame to pull off that trick with only one try. Something which requires practice and reflexes to do.

(There's an idea! A "Time Frame"!) 

[peterc3]

Who would you be timed against with this QTE, client or host?

[Miburec]

Timing it against the host wouldn't make much sense since you have to react to things that happen on your side. Imagine an exagerated high ping game where you have a latency of more than one second. You receive a blast proc on the hosts side and the moment it happens on your screen, your recovery time frame would allready be gone.

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

On 9/2/2017 at 9:06 AM, Miburec said:

Timing it against the host wouldn't make much sense since you have to react to things that happen on your side. Imagine an exagerated high ping game where you have a latency of more than one second. You receive a blast proc on the hosts side and the moment it happens on your screen, your recovery time frame would allready be gone.

I didn't think about that, good point! It would still be a neat feature. It doesn't sound like it would work with this taken into account. (Sad face) 

Happy Space, Labor Day, Tenno! 

[Xzorn]

The twitch mechanic is already there with Dodge roll. It's just diminished by 4-7 Ancients at a time, shooting hooks through corners and even behind themselves with a very unnatural feeling movement prediction. This feels more like a way to make the obnoxious interactive instead of fixing the obnoxious itself.

[Miburec]

On 4.9.2017 at 9:38 AM, Xzorn said:

The twitch mechanic is already there with Dodge roll. It's just diminished by 4-7 Ancients at a time, shooting hooks through corners and even behind themselves with a very unnatural feeling movement prediction. This feels more like a way to make the obnoxious interactive instead of fixing the obnoxious itself.

While I agree that the ancient hook shots are quirky at best, I'll not go into any detail about it as it is a whole different topic. My suggestion is about knockdowns in general, including but not limited to ancient/scorpion hook shots.

The dodge roll itself isn't quite the same as a "recovery jump" either. The first is a way to avoid getting knocked down, while the latter is a last-ditch attempt of turning the tables in case you missed the timing for your roll or simply got hit from behind.

[Xzorn]

@Miburec

I get that it's a different purpose and mechanic. I guess I just feel that when you fail you should be punished.

Knockdown via hooks are not being fairly presented to the player and this feels more like a solution to the symptom rather than the problem.

It's no a bad idea or anything; Just a difference in our priorities.

[DatDarkOne]

I like the effects of Power Drift myself.  What better way to recover from knockdowns than to not get knocked down in the first place.  :D

[(PSN)Onder6099]

All these give u knockdown resist:

Sure Footed 60%

Fortitude 20%

Power Drift 30%

Vaykor Sydon 50%

Nezha´s Warding Halo 100%

So i can´t see any reason to implement another mechanic for that

[Miburec]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

All these give u knockdown resist:

Sure Footed 60%

Fortitude 20%

Power Drift 30%

Vaykor Sydon 50%

Nezha´s Warding Halo 100%

So i can´t see any reason to implement another mechanic for that

No offense, but... come on... It's like asking for shotguns to be buffed and receiving a reply that I should use the Dread instead. :D

I am fully aware that there are possibilities to achieve up to 100% knockdown resistance. But besides Frames which possess abilities to completely negate all forms of status effects (which is the reason why warding halo or iron skin protects you from knowckdowns in the first place), Power Drift is nice but barely used for its knockdown protection alone and 30% is still a gamble beyond anything else, so you'd need to have Sure Footed equipped too - but neither that nor Fortidude are exilus Mods. And the Vaykor Sydon AFAIK only grants this knockdown resistance if you wield it as your active weapon (could be wrong about this) but you'd still need atleast one of the mods to make it somewhat reliable: In the end, Handspring is way more economic. While it doesn't prevent knockdowns, on max rank the get-up animation is as fast as - if not faster than the block animation when resisting the knockdown.

To sum it up, currently you are either forced to use certain frames or weapons not everyone likes to use, or  waste mod slots if you don't want to play dead fish for several seconds.

To me this sounds as awful as having all weapons nerfed to 1% accuracy and the only way to increase accuracy is to equip a mod which also gives you auto aim - you only have the choice of either not hitting anything at all or have the game play itself for you.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

5 hours ago, Miburec said:

No offense, but... come on... It's like asking for shotguns to be buffed and receiving a reply that I should use the Dread instead. :D

I am fully aware that there are possibilities to achieve up to 100% knockdown resistance. But besides Frames which possess abilities to completely negate all forms of status effects (which is the reason why warding halo or iron skin protects you from knowckdowns in the first place), Power Drift is nice but barely used for its knockdown protection alone and 30% is still a gamble beyond anything else, so you'd need to have Sure Footed equipped too - but neither that nor Fortidude are exilus Mods. And the Vaykor Sydon AFAIK only grants this knockdown resistance if you wield it as your active weapon (could be wrong about this) but you'd still need atleast one of the mods to make it somewhat reliable: In the end, Handspring is way more economic. While it doesn't prevent knockdowns, on max rank the get-up animation is as fast as - if not faster than the block animation when resisting the knockdown.

To sum it up, currently you are either forced to use certain frames or weapons not everyone likes to use, or  waste mod slots if you don't want to play dead fish for several seconds.

To me this sounds as awful as having all weapons nerfed to 1% accuracy and the only way to increase accuracy is to equip a mod which also gives you auto aim - you only have the choice of either not hitting anything at all or have the game play itself for you.

IMO, main problem is that decent amount of players are in mention that dealing highest Dmg and saving Energy are priorities in this game, so they have no slots for "Utility mods" and their use call "waste of slot", some of them try to find the way how to eliminate this. For me most annoying is Knockdown/Knockback "Moment of surprise" where both Handspring and your "Mash the button to hit 1milisecond window" failed. If I understand correctly your technique u must foresee Knockdown to be successful, if not how high will be the percentage of succes?

[phoenix1992]

*buffering*
*attempting to load the last time I was CC locked*

You know that holding Aim/Block/Fast airglide cancels most CC shenanigans, right?  I am struggling to remember the last time I got my face planted on the floor as long as I did any of the 3.

Edited September 6, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Miburec]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

IMO, main problem is that decent amount of players are in mention that dealing highest Dmg and saving Energy are priorities in this game, so they have no slots for "Utility mods" and their use call "waste of slot", some of them try to find the way how to eliminate this. For me most annoying is Knockdown/Knockback "Moment of surprise" where both Handspring and your "Mash the button to hit 1milisecond window" failed. If I understand correctly your technique u must foresee Knockdown to be successful, if not how high will be the percentage of succes?

I use Handspring in almost any Build. I barely stay in any endless mission longer than an hour (or 75 Minutes on fissure survival), that's why I don't have to squeeze every bit of power strength out of every build. So build optimization is actually my least concern but it frees up a mod slot nontheless, albeit an Exilus in my case.

And the way I imagine it to work is not to mash the button, but quite the opposite: If you're knocked over you "wait" for the right moment, for a visual cue. If you press the button too soon or too late, you're screwed. For example: If a hook shot grabs you from the front side, your frame currently first falls on its back with its legs in the air before the legs make contact with the ground too. What I suggest is something like "If you hit the jump button after your back hits the ground but before your feet also touch the ground, you flip up immediately". If you jump too early or too late nothing happens - so button mashing won't get you anywhere as the wrong timing cancels the ability to fast-recover completely.

This example propalby won't work as this is a verry narrow timeframe in the current animation but it works for demonstrating what I'm talking about.

It is not about preventing knockdowns so there is no need to foresee anything. It is all about reacting to a knockdown and just simply reduce the time to recover if you're adept enough, without the need of a Mod to do it for you.

1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

*buffering*
*attempting to load the last time I was CC locked*

You know that holding Aim/Block/Fast airglide cancels most CC shenanigans, right?  I am struggling to remember the last time I got my face planted on the floor as long as I did any of the 3.

Just tested it in the Simulacrum. Rolling and melee blocking is the only way to prevent a hookshot or blast proc from knocking you over. Neither aiming nor aim gliding nor bullet jumping helps beyond trying to evade the source of the knockdown.

[DreamsmithJane]

On 9/6/2017 at 11:04 AM, phoenix1992 said:

You know that holding Aim/Block/Fast airglide cancels most CC shenanigans, right?

No, it doesn't. Aim does nothing against knockdown. Blocking only works if you have melee active and block before the knockdown attack hits. Aim glide doesn't prevent knockdown, and only works as recovery if you have Constitution or Handspring to shorten the stun and allow input before you hit the ground.

[0zryel]

Now this is something we need, a way to reward skill play style players, who actually want to ninja instead of going full mindless commando that make no effort to dodge or even move from hits! I hope DE reads this.  Great idea mate. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by 0zryel
Grammar error and syntax error correction as english is not my native language