What if DMG 3.0 and MVP

[Duduminador]

So, this may have been suggested by someone else, I honestly would be surprised if it had NOT.
Every damage mod should apply to base damage BEFORE base damage mods like serration, pressure point, even critical mods and stuff like condition overload. Even multishot mods (additional shots would have only raw unmoded damage).

I can't be the only one who thinks this, scaling has gone way over the top. When are we going to take a time to see it has gone way off the charts? take a pistol with roughly 150 base damage and it ends up dealing 3k, before criticals. We have a system that encourages players to speedrun, ALL THE TIME, because we simply have TOO MUCH damage. If there's a bombard on the way, it won't make a difference, the first guy on the line is simply going to dispatch of it like it does to every other mob. Would it really be a terrible thing to have 4 players stop the running and actually join forces and take cover to fight the vip target?

But even multishot, criticals and status? The system as it works now, is broken. it Further encourages modding in a way that you allways multiply the current damage by a factor (((basedmg * basemodeddmg)* elemental dmg) *critical ) multishot, and leaving any gimmick as it is now, would only make people aim for it.

Naturally this still wouldn't fix the lack of balance in so many areas, most notably, abilities which would require an approach of its own. In fact, adding this before nerfing abilities would make people rely even further on them.

 

The second thing, and I believe is the bigger issue in the game atm, is the mission resume stats, that first line is imo, the cause of all the damage discussion on the game, there's a fuckton of stuff to do in Warframe, but every missions, every run, every defense comes down to that line. Damage dealt. This either needs to go, or have a more important stats over it. And I believe a MVP would be that setting. It should take in consideration everything already at the stats resume and more, resurrection, abilities cast, deaths and add up hacked consoles, damage absorbed (not dmg taken, but nullified through shields) calculate a new number of relevance to classify player performance.

But how to balance that up?, well, we already have the answer. I do not quite agree with the existence of Riven mods, but the way they are weight throught out different weapons is perhappes good. It takes in consideration what players use often and brings it down, takes the guns that are less used and brings them up. a MVP system could weight the same way, bring out what isn't done enough through out a match. In fact it would work better for a MVP system than it does for Riven mods.

"Isn't that a little bit elitist? To promote a stats that deliberatly claims one player to perform better than the other?"  The thing is, the Damage Dealt ALREADY does that. It already tries to evaluate players, but does so in a way that it kills everything but the first line. People would start looking more to stuff like ressurections, abilities cast if they realised they didn't beat the top rank for some reason even tho they owned mob damage. It creates a false sense of player evaluation, it already creates a false sense of MVP, except it is vicious, it's bent entirely to damage.

If players must be evaluated by what they do, then do take in consideration everything they do, like the armor bonus and health stored by Oberon, or Equinox's daylight damage reduction, or Volt's shields scattered on the map, or the time Ivara spent undetected while still playing and casting abilities. I dare say that maybe, just maybe, if Warframe had a real MVP stats, there wouldn't be the need to nerf guns and powers at all.

Notice that, Most of these suggestions DO NOT require a new code nor a big change to implement, otherwise these wouldn't be requested in other to unveil riven mods (If the game needs to count player actions to unlock riven mods, it means it already has a system that does just that).

Edited September 3, 2017 by Duduminador

[Koldraxon-732]

You forgot one thing. Enemy scaling comes first, damage 3.0 comes after. Trying it the other way will make the game unplayable if DE doesn't play it out correctly, and such has been the case before.

Why I say this? Try using that weapon of yours on a level 12 Corrupted Bombard, then 24, then 36, and so on until a level 120, without mods. And turn off invincibility.

Then try with mods.

Now do you understand why damage 2.0 and enemy scaling is what it is at this moment?

Edited September 3, 2017 by Koldraxon-732

[(PSN)theelix]

I don't think just moving where those numbers are actually changes the damage, unless I just can't do the math which is possible. 

What you're suggesting is ((((base damage * serration) * elemental) * critical) * multishot) to go to ((((base damage * elemental ) * critical) * multishot) * serration) right? 

I just plugged in some random number for base. 

((((100 * 2.65) * 1.90) * 2) * 2) for assault rifles gets to 2014. 

((((100 * 1.9) * 2) * 2) * 2.65) also gives me 2014. 

 

Even if I use your formula (in which assuming basemoddeddmg is base damage x serration) I just get 201400 both times. If you can find a video in which it's explained how damage is calculated, and how this would change anything I'd like to see it. 

[lukinu_u]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

I don't think just moving where those numbers are actually changes the damage, unless I just can't do the math which is possible. 

What you're suggesting is ((((base damage * serration) * elemental) * critical) * multishot) to go to ((((base damage * elemental ) * critical) * multishot) * serration) right? 

I just plugged in some random number for base. 

((((100 * 2.65) * 1.90) * 2) * 2) for assault rifles gets to 2014. 

((((100 * 1.9) * 2) * 2) * 2.65) also gives me 2014. 

 

Even if I use your formula (in which assuming basemoddeddmg is base damage x serration) I just get 201400 both times. If you can find a video in which it's explained how damage is calculated, and how this would change anything I'd like to see it. 

Nop, what is says is making serration only increase the base stats of the weapons and apply at the same places à elemental/physical mods.
Something like : ((base damages *(damages mods + elemental mods + physical mods) * critical) * multishot.
 

So for example, if you start with 50 slash and 50 impact damages and put serration + infected clip you will get :

• With the current system :  [50 base slash + 50 base impact + 90% of base damages as toxin (so 90% of 50+50)] * 165% of serration = 132.5 slash + 132.5 impact + 238.5 toxin.
• With the new system : 50 base slash + 50 base impact + 90% of base damages as toxin (so 90% of 50+50) + 165% of base damages = 132.5 slash + 132.5 impact + 90 toxin.

Basically, serration and other "pure damages mods" would only multiply the initial damages without caring of added element/physical damages a bit like how physical damages mods only increase a percentage of the following physical damage.

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

You forgot one thing. Enemy scaling comes first, damage 3.0 comes after. Trying it the other way will make the game unplayable if DE doesn't play it out correctly

Doing either one first would break the game. They are balanced against each other, so they have to be done simultaneously.

[Synpai]

4 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Nop, what is says is making serration only increase the base stats of the weapons and apply at the same places à elemental/physical mods.
Something like : ((base damages *(damages mods + elemental mods + physical mods) * critical) * multishot.
 

So for example, if you start with 50 slash and 50 impact damages and put serration + infected clip you will get :

• With the current system :  [50 base slash + 50 base impact + 90% of base damages as toxin (so 90% of 50+50)] * 165% of serration = 132.5 slash + 132.5 impact + 238.5 toxin.
• With the new system : 50 base slash + 50 base impact + 90% of base damages as toxin (so 90% of 50+50) + 165% of base damages = 132.5 slash + 132.5 impact + 90 toxin.

Basically, serration and other "pure damages mods" would only multiply the initial damages without caring of added element/physical damages a bit like how physical damages mods only increase a percentage of the following physical damage.

Wouldn't this only make matters much worse? This means that only weapons with high base damage are worth using o.O

[BlueberryIsWar]

Yes. Stopping to run and taking cover is literally the opposite of what warframe is.

But fear not, 99% of all other shooter games have you covered with slow, hide behind cover and shoot at bulletsponges gameplay.

Destiny 2 for instance. And that game is still fast compared to the majority out there.

 

PS: This is a game were a lot of people spent hundreds of hours without getting everything the game has to offer. Slowing the speed down would not only destroy much of its appeal, it would also make the grind unbearable.

Edited September 3, 2017 by BlueberryIsWar

[(PSN)theelix]

50 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Nop, what is says is making serration only increase the base stats of the weapons and apply at the same places à elemental/physical mods.
Something like : ((base damages *(damages mods + elemental mods + physical mods) * critical) * multishot.
 

So for example, if you start with 50 slash and 50 impact damages and put serration + infected clip you will get :

• With the current system :  [50 base slash + 50 base impact + 90% of base damages as toxin (so 90% of 50+50)] * 165% of serration = 132.5 slash + 132.5 impact + 238.5 toxin.
• With the new system : 50 base slash + 50 base impact + 90% of base damages as toxin (so 90% of 50+50) + 165% of base damages = 132.5 slash + 132.5 impact + 90 toxin.

Basically, serration and other "pure damages mods" would only multiply the initial damages without caring of added element/physical damages a bit like how physical damages mods only increase a percentage of the following physical damage.

That system is terrible because of how status works. It would be a three-fold reduction and make the game completely unplayable. Armor in this game would basically need to stop existing, and health scaling would need to be flat. 

[lukinu_u]

43 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Wouldn't this only make matters much worse? This means that only weapons with high base damage are worth using o.O

 

Just now, (PS4)theelix said:

That system is terrible because of how status works. It would be a three-fold reduction and make the game completely unplayable. Armor in this game would basically need to stop existing, and health scaling would need to be flat. 

I agree, it would be a bad thing but I just explain what OP wanted to says because @(PS4)theelix didn't understand.
But yes, this is totally a bad idea.

[Chipputer]

On the subject of end-of-run stats, I have to say that I would rather the game simply not display the other party member's damage and kills. Heck, not even displaying your own would be preferrable but people would definitely riot if they couldn't see how they were performing on a personal level.

Another option would be to put the damage dealt and kills stats at the bottom of the list and stop highlighting the person who did the most. Of course the Octavia standing in the middle of the open area with 15 spawn points is going to have the most damage. Nobody is surprised by Saryn/Prime getting tons of damage in Xini/Berehynia by spamming spores. Everyone knows a high power Ember in a lower level exterminate is going to end up with top damage.

By the time you're doing end-game team compositions people stop paying attention to the damage dealt statistics, anyway. You don't expect your desecrate Nekros to walk in and deal the bulk of the damage when you specifically have an Equinox teammate who is intended to do that while everyone is supposed to focus on taking out one enemy at a time to build the Equinox's Maim numbers. It's a pointless e-peen stat that does nothing but encourage toxicity in the players that pay too much attention to it.

Oh, let's also not forget that the Damage Dealt stat measures overkill damage, too. If, for example, you walk in and kill a level 30 Bombard with a Lato and I walk in and kill the same enemy with, say, a Dread set up with a Riven that gives it over 200% crit with close to, or higher than, 7.0x crit damage and I land a direct headshot and we never touch another enemy through the rest of the mission, the game will say I dealt more damage than you purely because I put out a higher number and not because I killed a more dangerous enemy or killed more of them.
This shouldn't be how damage dealt is measured.

[Synpai]

2 hours ago, Chipputer said:

On the subject of end-of-run stats, I have to say that I would rather the game simply not display the other party member's damage and kills. Heck, not even displaying your own would be preferrable but people would definitely riot if they couldn't see how they were performing on a personal level.

Another option would be to put the damage dealt and kills stats at the bottom of the list and stop highlighting the person who did the most. Of course the Octavia standing in the middle of the open area with 15 spawn points is going to have the most damage. Nobody is surprised by Saryn/Prime getting tons of damage in Xini/Berehynia by spamming spores. Everyone knows a high power Ember in a lower level exterminate is going to end up with top damage.

By the time you're doing end-game team compositions people stop paying attention to the damage dealt statistics, anyway. You don't expect your desecrate Nekros to walk in and deal the bulk of the damage when you specifically have an Equinox teammate who is intended to do that while everyone is supposed to focus on taking out one enemy at a time to build the Equinox's Maim numbers. It's a pointless e-peen stat that does nothing but encourage toxicity in the players that pay too much attention to it.

Oh, let's also not forget that the Damage Dealt stat measures overkill damage, too. If, for example, you walk in and kill a level 30 Bombard with a Lato and I walk in and kill the same enemy with, say, a Dread set up with a Riven that gives it over 200% crit with close to, or higher than, 7.0x crit damage and I land a direct headshot and we never touch another enemy through the rest of the mission, the game will say I dealt more damage than you purely because I put out a higher number and not because I killed a more dangerous enemy or killed more of them.
This shouldn't be how damage dealt is measured.

More stats are needed in general, overshields restored/shields restored, healing totals, many things would help "supports" feel better about the role and make the game feel less about if you don't kill you're not doing anything.

I don't think MVPs should really exist in team games. Reminds me of Castle Panic, it's a coop tower defense board game that has a side-goal of "scoring the most points by killing enemies to be titled master slayer." The more health an enemy has the more points they're worth, with bosses being worth the most. Obviously if you play with this in mind your team can fall apart because player A won't want to necessarily weaken a monster or trade cards if it means giving the points to player C (with this mentality in place we actually ended up losing a few times).

It's a "rule" that shouldn't even exist lol, you're on a team and as far as I'm concerned working together/achieving a goal is the sauce!

Stats can help refute against players in competitive scenarios saying "you've done nothing," but it's almost negligible because in the end it doesn't even matter.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Synpai

[DrBorris]

I love it when people read a thread and refuse to actually think. Of course if we get a damage rework an enemy scaling rework would go with it, do you think the OP is stupid? And as for status mechanics, or course they would be adjusted. Rather than completely dismissing a concept, how about you suggest ways to have enemies scale with a more reigned in player scaling? Or maybe suggest how status could work. And if you think that core concept is faulty, explain why that concept itself is flawed. 

 

It is so gosh darn hypocritical, if someone writes a super long detailed post and tries to fill every gap, the first comment will be "tl;dr" and most people will just not read the OP or read the first paragraph/title alone and assume what the rest was about. However, if someone does not describe every little detail than a bunch of people will come in and completely dismissed a core concept because no fine details were given. 

 

Tl;dr: (because apparently everything needs one) Use some common sense when responding to a topic please... 

Edited September 4, 2017 by DrBorris

[xveganrox]

I'd like that but I'd also like them to just get rid of Serration/Hornet Strike etc. in general. They're totally boring. Corrupted mods and PvP mods are a much cooler direction than flat bonuses. I don't think powerful weapons are the reason we speed run everything - I think the fact that the core gameplay loop is efficient grinding/farming is what causes that. You could just as easily speedrun with maim Equinox + blood rush melee, or Ember for lower level stuff, or any number of other things. Warframe has never been a game that cared even a little bit about balance, it's always been about insanely overpowered combos. You can run a blood rush naramon build on any frame even without Pressure Point and still destroy almost everything up to and including sorties.

[Duduminador]

I knew there would be resistence to this but I'm a bit shocked to see how much.

Do people not see that? we CAN'T have a co-op experience when everybody is continuously trying to outdo each other, every time. NOn stop.

This is not Co-op. It's a competition. Who gets to the objective first? Who deals the most damage? who gets to the extraction first? Even if you enjoy that to the bones, the one time you choose not to pick the overpowered build, then someone else will, someone else will ruin that one time you didn't want to rush to the end because you people yourselves keep this vicious snowball rolling.

Is that what the majority of the community wants? Warframe to be this clusterfuck of meta builds bullet jumping everywhere?

[CitizenDeath]

9 hours ago, Duduminador said:

Would it really be a terrible thing to have 4 players stop the running and actually join forces and take cover to fight the vip target?

...

Is that what the majority of the community wants? Warframe to be this clusterfuck of meta builds bullet jumping everywhere?

Yes it would be a terrible thing.

You say warframe is a clusterfuck like it's a bad thing. I only just got back into the game so I don't really know anything about the current meta and I certainly don't have the mods needed to make an overpowered build, but none of that has bugged me at all. Warframe is a fast game. That's what makes it fun. If they nerf everything to the point where I have to start taking cover to avoid getting insta-gibbed by a bullet sponge of a boss then as far as I'm concerned the game's lost all its appeal.

Edited September 5, 2017 by CitizenDeath

[o.0-]

Wanted to share two ideas for Dmg 3.0 that may relate to what's been shared in the OP.

An idea with Multishot is to keep it as a vital component to being able proc more status effects, and not raise damage on the weapon as it currently does.

The principle is simply that taking the original projectile and breaking it down as in the different types of shotgun shell gauges ranging from birdshot to a slug is changing the size of the projectiles to fit more of them in the same space, as that projectile value increases. Naturally the kinetic force and damage is different between a BB sized projectile to that of single slug.

So a weapon like the Pyrana with a Multishot Riven and all the rest of the Multishot mods can then truely make it a Proc'ing monster for a status weapon, while not being as beneficial to a crit weapon as raw damage would no longer be raised.

Another idea is to no long combine Elements and provide new Elemental mods for the combo'd ones, to help reduce the large multipliers that are associated. IPS weighing in relation to the rest would then need to see tweaks and likely Status Chance in general like those only Status Chance mods that grant 15% and so on.