when are you nerfing condition overload? if you wont give it to the firearms as well pls.

[GeometricBison]

@Zeclem If you think Condition Overload kills things too fast, don't use it.

[Zeclem]

12 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

If your base damage is low, your multiplied damage will - guess what still be low, so CO will be only as good as the base output before CO is. For the sake of simplifying  I will just show you the issue in your math : 



Your basic damage before Elemental, CO or whatever.

Your base damage after adding 3x dual stat mods 

Again I am using Orthos because it is rather simple example for a melee, not in order to make it as convoluted as possible.
So what is your damage pre crit, pre status aplication or CO on a non armored target?
481.6 versus the 172.2 pre mods per attack  - again disregarding any modifiers that mingle with the math like how much is the actual damage intake from an enemy due to scaling, amor type, buffs/debufs.


Your generic pre riven build (I don't have a riven for this weapon and face it - Rivens make balancing impossible)

You want the 480% buff regardless of how reliable it is - fine, you have it 2119 hit. Oh you want to add Drifting contact instead of riven for sure status and longer combo window - sure thing. Go mingle with how this hit will land, But since I am pretty sure that going to the Simulacrom and testing 90% of the melee  weapons is too much for you : on 200 combo the average singe target hit is 3-4k with regular clits hitting for 10-15k if the elements are tweaked in order to deal with the specific enemy type (what you though I want to smack Heavy gunners with Slash and Rad?)

What about your le old crit build with cheap mods?

*orthos is screaming I am so tiny*
Between 5 and 20k crits on 150 modifier with a lot more consistency ( I actually ran out of enemies preddy damn fast and had to swap to 135 levels)
(again Don't worry i dropped True steel and Buzzkill for Corrosive)

Now if your bloody argument is "If I run a build that runs CO with mods that allow me to have extended counter I can wreck enemies at 600 + counter with ease" - sure. But mind that this is not a CO issue, it is a game scaling one.

PS: I can repeat the test with a Crit and Status Galatine Rivens (don't ask how i got two galatine rivens, it is a mystery), but if your argument will reach back towards what Ripkas and other fringe weapons do, do not use the 90% mark statement.

https://gyazo.com/25ecb3ea17eb7906da8edb8546803718  > CO build.

https://gyazo.com/ec6d4533e83cfbc4ee4e29741ddcdeba > crit build.

https://gyazo.com/c49e5bd65c769e2a8e608ff4c44af773 > crit build with berserk buff

i dont care what you simulacrum test produced. actual numbers are here. increase combo counter all the way you want. CO will always outdps bloodrush. 

@GeometricBisonit wont stop from others using it wouldnt it?

Edited September 18, 2017 by Zeclem

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Zeclem said:

https://gyazo.com/25ecb3ea17eb7906da8edb8546803718  > CO build.

https://gyazo.com/ec6d4533e83cfbc4ee4e29741ddcdeba > crit build.

i dont care what you simulacrum test produced. actual numbers are here. 

 

I don't care what your DPS builder shows, prove it in game with 90% of the melee weapons. 

PS: The very fact that your burst and sustained DPS are the same number shows how flowed the builder is. But whatever floats your theory craft.
 

[GeometricBison]

15 hours ago, Zeclem said:

@GeometricBisonit wont stop from others using it wouldnt it?

Dude, if people are killing enemies with melee weapons faster than you can with guns, C.O. might not be the issue. If people are killing enemies with melee weapons faster than you can with melee weapons, either get to the enemies faster or spread out from your squad a bit more. Also, please correct me if I'm wrong because I'd love to be wrong about this, but is your argument that you want people to kill enemies slower? Because if it is, just play solo or something.

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

I don't care what your DPS builder shows, prove it in game with 90% of the melee weapons. 

PS: The very fact that your burst and sustained DPS are the same number shows how flowed the builder is. But whatever floats your theory craft.
 

so you dont believe in numbers. got it. and no, that builder is far from flawed. unlike your anectodal "evidence".

@GeometricBisonmy issue is the lack of balance here. i dont have any slightest issue with not getting kills or whatever.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Zeclem

[GeometricBison]

15 hours ago, Zeclem said:

@GeometricBisonmy issue is the lack of balance here. i dont have any slightest issue with not getting kills or whatever.

Balance, in Warframe's terms, is more or less dependent on how many things you can kill within a very short amount of time. That's why the Tonkor was nerfed, that's why the Synoid Simulor was nerfed, that's why the Telos Boltace was nerfed, that's why Ash's Bladestorm was nerfed, and that's why Excal's Exalted Blade was nerfed. Are you saying that C.O. kills a mass amount of things at once or in a very short period of time? Because if it does, you should tell me how.

[K4RN4]

12 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

https://gyazo.com/ec6d4533e83cfbc4ee4e29741ddcdeba > crit build.

That's what a crit build looks like.

[Fallen_Echo]

59 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

@Fallen_Echo if only i didnt gave numbers to prove that this mod is overpowered. but yeah sure ive only said "nerf this cus i dont like it". its not like forums like reading proof that they dont like.

And yet you have not shown us anything but pointless whinning, you dont brought solutions, suggestions anything you just waste our time here because you dont like how things are. Im sorry but your whole thread is nothing else but a line of complaint +i dont like this so nerf it".

[Zeclem]

2 minutes ago, Oru5732 said:

That's what a crit build looks like.

its been a long while ive gave up hope on maiming strike to be anywhere near balanced. and it has the issue of not having elemental damage bonuses that other builds tend to have+it lacks utility of CO.

@Fallen_Echoso all those calculations ive posted several times are absolutely nothing? gee so you dont believe in numbers as well?

Edited September 18, 2017 by Zeclem

[InquisitorMaximus]

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, Zeclem said:

so all those calculations ive posted several times are absolutely nothing? gee so you dont believe in numbers as well?

Yes, they are pointless. Without actual solutions, efforts made to balance thing this is no more than useless complaining. We are back at square one where your biggest contribution to this argument is "I dont like it".

[Zeclem]

9 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Yes, they are pointless. Without actual solutions, efforts made to balance thing this is no more than useless complaining. We are back at square one where your biggest contribution to this argument is "I dont like it".

balance cant be obtained without use of nerfs. but its clear youre one of those no nerf activists that has no understanding of game development or proper argument skills i know that you'll just say im just "whining without proposing a solution" while ive already made the statement that a nerf of some sorts is needed. keep denying numbers, its gonna do you great in life. being condencending without any constructive criticism? wooo that helps even more.

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Zeclem

[Fallen_Echo]

9 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

balance cant be obtained without use of nerfs. but its clear youre one of those no nerf activists that has no understanding of game development or proper argument skills i know that you'll just say im just "whining without proposing a solution" while ive already made the statement that a nerf of some sorts is needed. keep denying numbers, its gonna do you great in life. being condencending without any constructive criticism? wooo that helps even more.

 

And you sound like those guys who are constantly spamming the forums with nerf ember posts because she can kill lv20 enemies fast.

What IS your solution? Decreasing its damage bonus to 50%, 40% or 30% per status? Placing it in-line with the maiming strike crit builds? Anything?

I seen your numbers, theyre are pretty high despite theyre a bit off sometimes like when you posted that "crit" build. Im not gonna deny it its powerful but unless DE first goes and removes the madness what justifies having this powerful builds im not gonna pretend that we need to nerf these for the soo called "balance".

[Zeclem]

Just now, Fallen_Echo said:

And you sound like those guys who are constantly spamming the forums with nerf ember posts because she can kill lv20 enemies fast.

What IS your solution? Decreasing its damage bonus to 50%, 40% or 30% per status? Placing it in-line with the maiming strike crit builds? Anything?

I seen your numbers, theyre are pretty high despite theyre a bit off sometimes like when you posted that "crit" build. Im not gonna deny it its powerful but unless DE first goes and removes the madness what justifies having this powerful builds im not gonna pretend that we need to nerf these for the soo called "balance".

ive already stated the issue with CO. it scales off of itself. it shouldnt do that. two status effects should give %120 damage buff. not more. that would make it balanced alongside the utility status provides while still dealing a lot of damage.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

ive already stated the issue with CO. it scales off of itself. it shouldnt do that. two status effects should give %120 damage buff. not more. that would make it balanced alongside the utility status provides while still dealing a lot of damage.

Turns out, if Blood Rush didn't scale off of Maiming Strike's additive bonus, spin to win crit builds wouldn't be nearly so effective either.

Take an example crit base of 20% chance for 2x, using Blood Rush (crit *= 1+(1.65*comboMult)):

COMBO              CRIT CHANCE(%)                DAMAGE MULT (average)

1                          53                                        1.53
1.5                       69.5                                      1.695
2                          86                                        1.86
2.5                       102.5                                    2.025
3                          119                                       2.19
3.5                       135.5                                    2.355
4                          152                                       2.52

Now add +90% additive to that base, what happens at a 110% base crit chance?
1                          291.5                                    3.915
1.5                       382.25                                   4.8225
2                          473                                       5.73
2.5                       563.75                                   6.6375
3                          654.5                                     7.545
3.5                       745.25                                   8.4525
4                          836                                       9.36

 

Suddenly 10.5x multiplier Condition Overload at 5 unique procs doesn't seem very outclassed. Not counting further crit chance/damage mods, not counting weapons with better stats than that. Here's some quick bounds on different values:

2.5x Crit Damage = NO_SPIN (c1 = 1.80; c4 = 3.28)   SPIN (c1 = 5.37; c4 = 13.54)
3x Crit Damage   = NO_SPIN (c1 = 2.06; c4 = 4.04)   SPIN (c1 = 6.83; c4 = 17.72)
35% CritChance  = NO_SPIN (c1 = 1.92; c4 = 3.66)   SPIN (c1 = 4.31; c4 = 10.50)

If you're spinning to win, then any crit damage you're working with above 2x beats out Condition Overload on per-strike basis. Maybe that doesn't account for status damage (more procs vs. potent procs?), but still.

 

If you want Condition Overload reduced in power, you must want additive Spin Crit removed (maiming and rivens alike). Anything else is kind of hypocrisy.

[Zeclem]

@EDYinniti want maimin strike to be nerfed and removed from rivens as well. but its chances of happening are extremely slim so i dont have much hopes. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

@EDYinniti want maimin strike to be nerfed and removed from rivens as well. but its chances of happening are extremely slim so i dont have much hopes. 

That is fair enough then, but given the breakdown I just provided, you must concede that an argument that it's "even better than crit builds" is almost completely invalid. It has to be a rebalance for simultaneously both or neither.

Additive Condition Overload with multiplicative Spin Crit would be a sensible outcome. Taking the same theoretical inputs, you have a 4x modifier for CO (1+(0.6*5)) and for 90% spincrit, increases the damage multiplier by 30% to 50% (raising for better bases, eg 45%-65% at 3x crit damage or 35% crit chance or 58%-75% with both 35% and 3x).

35% crit chance + blood rush + multiplicative maiming at 2x crit damage would surpass Condition Overload with 5 procs as the combo multiplier raises from 2x to 2.5x.
20% crit chance + blood rush + multiplicative maiming at 3x crit damage would surpass Condition Overload with 5 procs once you reach 2x combo. 

(20% and 2x would require 4.5x combo)

Edited September 19, 2017 by EDYinnit

[Mattoropael]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

@EDYinniti want maimin strike to be nerfed and removed from rivens as well. but its chances of happening are extremely slim so i dont have much hopes. 

So instead of any sort of balance (be it "NERF ALL THE THINGS" or "Leave both alone so that people can choose their preferred OP build"), you're saying that you want to nuke one playstyle over another because it's the lower-hanging fruit that is easier to swing the nerf bat about, even though that would make melee "crit or **** off" again?

What the hell, man?

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Mattoropael

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, Mattoropael said:

So instead of any sort of balance (be it "NERF ALL THE THINGS" or "Leave both alone so that people can choose their preferred OP build"), you're saying that you want to nuke one playstyle over another because it's the lower-hanging fruit that is easier to swing the nerf bat about, even though that would make melee "crit or **** off" again?

What the hell, man?

 

how exactly it would make melee "crit or gtfo"? cus it very much wouldnt. it would still has a lot of damage and on top of that, utility of being a status build. as of right now it overperforms any melee build that is not maiming strike inclusive. and even that one doesnt compare in utility.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Zeclem

[Dreddeth]

One thing I think we've been forgetting is proc bias.

With a purely elemental weapon, you're gonna get either 1 or 2 procs, because that's the max number of different damage types you can slot onto it, and some of those (such as Blast) have too short a duration to really be useful anyway, though Blast on a Body Count melee is a poor idea to begin with. This makes Condition Overload's worth on something like the Lecta debatable.

With an IPS weapon, you're realistically gonna get a max of 3 different procs on an enemy before you kill it, because procs are biased towards whatever damage type is the highest. So say you have the Broken Scepter with a dedicated Status build featuring two elemental combos. You get 1 proc for each EC, 1 Impact proc, and maybe if it's taking you way too long to kill something, RNGsus might smile on you with a Puncture proc. Forget about Slash.

Or say you've got a Nikana Prime, or a Galatine Prime. You get whatever elements you've got, and a Slash proc basically any other time because its Puncture and Impact damage are so low. That's 3 at best, realistically speaking.

The only cases in which this isn't, well, the case, are either situations where a stance has regular instances of forced procs, like Vulpine Mask, or situations in which a weapon's IPS spread is even enough to have a realistic chance of proccing all 3, like the Mios.

Neither of these situations are exactly common, and none of the weapons in these situations are exactly top-tier, though to be fair the Endura and Destreza are close enough in terms of power that the better one is largely a matter of personal taste. In particular, the Mios is the best of the blade and whip category not because of it being good for Condition Overload, but because it can be hybrid built, giving it a higher damage ceiling than the Lacera and better utility than the Jat Kusar.

Well, there's also the freak of nature that is the Lesion, but the full build for that is just insane, and it's a much stronger argument for nerfing slide attacks and/or Maiming Strike than nerfing Condition Overload.

So all in all I don't know how you think comparing a Condition Overload build scaling off of 4-5 procs to a Blood Rush build is at all realistic. Furthermore, you have to reapply these procs to every new enemy, meaning that your DPS will drop down with each kill and need to be ramped back up by focusing on one enemy at a time. In a horde game. Blood Rush, on the other hand, is only dependent on the combo counter, and thus only lost if you go too long without hitting an enemy. On top of that, the bonus damage it grants doesn't just stack multiplicatively like Condition Overload. It also scales off of modded crit chance and modded crit multiplier, giving it ample potential for larger bonuses with each stack than those of Condition Overload.

Condition Overload doesn't make status melee weapons overpowered compared to crit melee weapons. It makes status melee weapons relevant compared to crit melee weapons.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Dreddeth
Typographical error.

[Otaiken]

What beneficial effect do you imagine nerfing CO will have on the game OP?

Let's say CO is reworked so it's exactly in line damage wise with your standard crit build. This would in turn make the build choice meaningless. You pick one or the other for crit or status weapon respectively. The goal of either build is to make things dead as quickly as possible, nothing much matters beyond that.

If you instead make CO inferior to critbuild then critbuild will just take its place as "mandatory" build. That is unless you're running low crit status weapon which would now be simply inferior to crit weapons (as they had been for ages).

And all this to balance for... actually, that is a good question. What content are we balancing for here? because if we're talking sortie tier lvl 100 enemies both builds are good enough at killing stuff already.

Lastly the limiting factor for melee in WF has always been and always will be the damage enemies inflict on you. The stuf you're currently hacking at will pretty much never fight back, it's the other guys half a room away that will shred you if you take too long killing. We need raw DPS to survive. Melee will alway be inferior to ranged weapons which are just as capable of wiping rooms without such limitation. The only current "meta" is total and complete CC lockdown followed by an instant nuke provided by abilities/guns. Nobody runs melee at lvl 100+ beacuse it's efficient. Well, maybe except for spintowin.

Sorties always play out the same way. Either people rush through the missions leaving all of the enemies behind and end it with <50 total kills combined on the team. Or in a mission where you can't do this enemies will be CC'd to the point where you could whittle  them to death with unranked heat sword given enough time.

Even the argument "It's no fun when everything around me dies too quickly" doesn't hold water here. Because it's next to impossible to clear entire rooms with just melee quickly enough in a team where others have guns. You can do this with abilities, you can do it with some guns but you really can't do it with melee not even maiming strike atterax.

At this point I treat my melee as fashion accessory and health replenishment tool (which I do with finishers so no damage argument here either). Which reminds me that CO at least has some synergy with your other weapons while critbuilds currently only have synergy with mashing your melee button. There are even people citing this as a bad thing and reason for a nerf. Imagine the horror of people building their sentinels and weapons to fuel synergy with their melee instead of just mashing melee the button... what kind of horrid uninspired playstyle is THAT?!

Edited September 20, 2017 by LocoWithGun

[Zeclem]

10 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

One thing I think we've been forgetting is proc bias.

With a purely elemental weapon, you're gonna get either 1 or 2 procs, because that's the max number of different damage types you can slot onto it, and some of those (such as Blast) have too short a duration to really be useful anyway, though Blast on a Body Count melee is a poor idea to begin with. This makes Condition Overload's worth on something like the Lecta debatable.

With an IPS weapon, you're realistically gonna get a max of 3 different procs on an enemy before you kill it, because procs are biased towards whatever damage type is the highest. So say you have the Broken Scepter with a dedicated Status build featuring two elemental combos. You get 1 proc for each EC, 1 Impact proc, and maybe if it's taking you way too long to kill something, RNGsus might smile on you with a Puncture proc. Forget about Slash.

Or say you've got a Nikana Prime, or a Galatine Prime. You get whatever elements you've got, and a Slash proc basically any other time because its Puncture and Impact damage are so low. That's 3 at best, realistically speaking.

The only cases in which this isn't, well, the case, are either situations where a stance has regular instances of forced procs, like Vulpine Mask, or situations in which a weapon's IPS spread is even enough to have a realistic chance of proccing all 3, like the Mios.

Neither of these situations are exactly common, and none of the weapons in these situations are exactly top-tier, though to be fair the Endura and Destreza are close enough in terms of power that the better one is largely a matter of personal taste. In particular, the Mios is the best of the blade and whip category not because of it being good for Condition Overload, but because it can be hybrid built, giving it a higher damage ceiling than the Lacera and better utility than the Jat Kusar.

Well, there's also the freak of nature that is the Lesion, but the full build for that is just insane, and it's a much stronger argument for nerfing slide attacks and/or Maiming Strike than nerfing Condition Overload.

So all in all I don't know how you think comparing a Condition Overload build scaling off of 4-5 procs to a Blood Rush build is at all realistic. Furthermore, you have to reapply these procs to every new enemy, meaning that your DPS will drop down with each kill and need to be ramped back up by focusing on one enemy at a time. In a horde game. Blood Rush, on the other hand, is only dependent on the combo counter, and thus only lost if you go too long without hitting an enemy. On top of that, the bonus damage it grants doesn't just stack multiplicatively like Condition Overload. It also scales off of modded crit chance and modded crit multiplier, giving it ample potential for larger bonuses with each stack than those of Condition Overload.

Condition Overload doesn't make status melee weapons overpowered compared to crit melee weapons. It makes status melee weapons relevant compared to crit melee weapons.

proc bias/moving onto other enemies is not an issue when majority of the stances have multihits or forced procs or both. at least not for physical weapons. and blast proc alone counts as two status boosts as well so its quite far from useless. and theres the fact that you can use other weapons/abilities to add into the procs instead of just relying on your weapon. 

and i'd be all for nerfing maiming strike. but condition overload isnt a mod thats weaker than it. what it lacks in dps it has it in utility.

status melee weapons were very much relevant before its arrival. just because they werent "meta" doesnt mean they were weaker. i did used them in a bunch of endurance runs without that mod cus utility they provided was always extremely useful.

5 hours ago, LocoWithGun said:

What beneficial effect do you imagine nerfing CO will have on the game OP?

Let's say CO is reworked so it's exactly in line damage wise with your standard crit build. This would in turn make the build choice meaningless. You pick one or the other for crit or status weapon respectively. The goal of either build is to make things dead as quickly as possible, nothing much matters beyond that.

If you instead make CO inferior to critbuild then critbuild will just take its place as "mandatory" build. That is unless you're running low crit status weapon which would now be simply inferior to crit weapons (as they had been for ages).

And all this to balance for... actually, that is a good question. What content are we balancing for here? because if we're talking sortie tier lvl 100 enemies both builds are good enough at killing stuff already.

Lastly the limiting factor for melee in WF has always been and always will be the damage enemies inflict on you. The stuf you're currently hacking at will pretty much never fight back, it's the other guys half a room away that will shred you if you take too long killing. We need raw DPS to survive. Melee will alway be inferior to ranged weapons which are just as capable of wiping rooms without such limitation. The only current "meta" is total and complete CC lockdown followed by an instant nuke provided by abilities/guns. Nobody runs melee at lvl 100+ beacuse it's efficient. Well, maybe except for spintowin.

Sorties always play out the same way. Either people rush through the missions leaving all of the enemies behind and end it with <50 total kills combined on the team. Or in a mission where you can't do this enemies will be CC'd to the point where you could whittle  them to death with unranked heat sword given enough time.

Even the argument "It's no fun when everything around me dies too quickly" doesn't hold water here. Because it's next to impossible to clear entire rooms with just melee quickly enough in a team where others have guns. You can do this with abilities, you can do it with some guns but you really can't do it with melee not even maiming strike atterax.

At this point I treat my melee as fashion accessory and health replenishment tool (which I do with finishers so no damage argument here either). Which reminds me that CO at least has some synergy with your other weapons while critbuilds currently only have synergy with mashing your melee button. There are even people citing this as a bad thing and reason for a nerf. Imagine the horror of people building their sentinels and weapons to fuel synergy with their melee instead of just mashing melee the button... what kind of horrid uninspired playstyle is THAT?!

i dont want co to be "inferior". i want it to be on the same line as bloodrush. 

im talking about 100-130 lvls(so basically sortie 3 yes). and there my co builds do a lot more work. i dont want to feel like im being a burden on my squad for my choice of weapon/build. i just hate that feeling especially in sorties. is crit viable there? most definitely. but it is weaker in terms of damage. it shouldnt be weaker.

melee is far from inferior to ranged weapons. that is simply not true. and if youre using a tanky frame its directly the opposite. 

i dont have an issue with enemies dying too fast around me. it would be against logic of a horde shooter. my issue is balance between builds/weapons and only that. 

synergy isnt an inherently bad thing, idk why are you trying to have that as a point of argument. but synergies can be very much op as well. and here, they kind of are considering how easily its done especially with specific weaponry that do have quite a wide range of choice.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Zeclem

[Darkuhn]

how is this Thread even still going?

There are different Playstyles that are enjoyed by some players and disliked by others. If your build is working for you that's good, but don't enforce it on others.

I have lots of missions were I do like 50-80% of the dmg. And its not even bothering me, that other players don't doing as as much as I'm doing. All is good as long as the mission succeeds. 

This Game is mostly PvE so why are you asking to "balance"(Nerf) a specific Playstyle?

Edited September 20, 2017 by Darkuhn

[Dreddeth]

10 hours ago, Zeclem said:

-snip-

You completely failed to address the part where I outlined Condition Overload's actual strength compared to Blood Rush, so I'll re-iterate:

Condition Overload offers capped instances of a fixed bonus that only scales off of damage mods and itself and only applies to enemies that have procs on them, and only based on the number of procs those enemies have.

Blood Rush offers theoretically infinite instances of a bonus which scales off of damage, crit chance, crit damage, and itself, and applies to all enemies so long as you have your combo counter up.

And you want to nerf Condition Overload?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic

Edited September 20, 2017 by Dreddeth
Typographical error.

[motorfirebox]

The real question is, when are they going to release Condition Overload counterparts for primary and secondary?