Shadow Step & Invisibility-mechanics, The Elephant In The Room

[CrazyValkyr]

Premise: I am not looking to start an argument, flamewar or mindless rage; but rather a civil & positive, constructive discussion on the topic. Please do not go bashing anyone, people who say 'gid gud' just for the sake of it, also need not to reply, as it doesn't contribute to anything in a constructive manner. Let's keep this positive & constructive, pretty please.:)

Note: I enjoy long solo-survival runs. Before I get 'gid gud'd anyways; I can do every survival in the game for at least one hour (it's in fact, the 'casual' runs I do nowadays) & every Defence solo up to wave 40 without using 'Shadow Step' with my Eternal War (Warcry) Valkyr. I am mainly talking about 'survivability' in runs that are intended past two hours & more. Not intended for bragging, I mean, what's there to brag about, merely offering for reference, as to what I am talking about, in terms of 'long endless' runs.

Shadow Step, ay 'git gud' or necessary evil?

A lot of people express the opinion of 'Shadow Step' being OP or 'cheese'. And while I do agree, that the way it works is a wee bit cheesy, it also depicts much larger problem that I am seeing. Invisibility, is one of the most efficient way of mitigating incoming damage, and I would say, ridiculously efficient in doing so. If you utilize good enough parkour & avoid AoE's, you'll be very likely to avoid 99% of damage (but past certain levels, it still does require you to be smart, especially if you run one of the squishier Warframes. so it does not truly trivialize content).

So - Is 'Shadow Step' itself the problem? I would say - No. 

It's the mechanic for invisibility itself, that poses real "problem", and mainly - lack of viable alternatives to it, that resulted in a lot of people simply using 'Shadow Step' as a 'meta'. 

To my understanding, one of reasons of the removal is, to combat 'meta'. But, with removing of this passive, DE is essentially creating even more strict meta, mainly for truly long endless runs, when enemies hit anything above 300's. There's a certain treshold, that enemies will one-shot you, regardless of your setup, regardless of your armor & going invisible is basically only chance of staying alive. And that I think is the real problem & why I am mashing this topic together, despite of mostly not posting on the forums.

So what will happen?

We will be back to old status-quo, of stealth-frames to be the 'master-race' of endless runs. I personally was quite tired of 'Loki-masterrace', as it's simply not a 'frame I enjoy in the slightest. As someone, who prefers a tanky-frame; having armor 3k'ish with all the possible buffs, I feel we shouldn't lag behind, in terms of survivability. My point is, the options of having such a ridiculous survivability will once again, be limited to very-select few setups. And while that is OK for some, it's in my opinion, not OK on the broader scale. 
Let me explain - One of the biggest appeals of Warframe, at least to me, was ability to find my way, to play in certain way, trying to find out how best to adapt to different situations, without having to use 'prescribed' Warframes. Reducing this particular feature takes away the variety that we used to have. 

Shadow Step, like it or not, allowed us to see a true variety of Warframes on the endless runs, as it made them viable on the long runs. Sure, there were people, who used it as purely 'cheesy' way to run through missions; but then again - is using Ivara cheesy for Spy missions? Since she does 'trivialize' the Spy missions & their 'intended' challenge, doesn't she? It cannot be used as a blanket-statement, as otherwise, a lot of abilities in Warframe, that are super efficient & fun, would fall into similar category.

I am not hell-bent on retaining the ability in the exact form it was; I am merely looking at it as a broader-problem I personally am seeing. I want us to retain survivability, without having to result playing one or two specific Warframes & setups. As to how that is achieved - Of course, a constructive feedback should also offer ideas, how to improve things. Full-steam ahead.

Possible solutions?

A) Fairly easy & obvious - Make a return of this passive in some form in the new Arcanes System.

Heck, make it possible for Nullifiers to remove the effect, just like it's with regular invisibility ability. Shorten the duration of invisibility to 5 seconds. Adjust it, so it's reasonable; but so that the option of added survivability, that actually works, if you are smart enough, on truly endless runs.

B) Add alternate, similarly efficient ways of survivability, to non-invisible Warframes. 

That, I feel, is harder, given current setup of how enemies & their scaling works, and would potentially require larger rework of the armor-scaling. But, it would make sense; as then we would have three ways of surviving:

• Shield Tanks, which will be fairly efficient; once Shield-gating is in. 
• Stealth-based survivability - That one doesn't need explanation; we all know how Invisibility/Stealth mechanics work. 
• Armor-based tanks - Needing a severe rework, as right now, even as someone who is full-invested in large armor pool, I feel that investment doesn't even do it the justice.

Obviously, it would take a comittment to a certain style, and not each 'frame is suited for one or the another - but still offering the variety & choice, rather than having to result to one true-way or, 'meta', if you will.

Bottomline

As I said, to me, Warframe has the appeal for me, for the large variety of options presented in front of me, that I could work with, while thinking out of the box. I am a person, who enjoys solo chill & survive for 3-4 hours. (Don't judge, everyone has different fun). Removing of Shadow Step, without offering alternatives (<--- this right there, is the crucial problem for me, as if we have viable alternatives, I can go back on about my regularly scheduled carnage), proves to be sort of in oppositon of that direction. 
Ie. I don't want to be shrugged off with just 'but omg, play this & that Warframe' - keep in mind that we all are different in how we enjoy the game. I respect your style, but please respect mine; in return, that kind of attitude. I want to trust DE they will consider this, and perhaps, they are already step ahead of me & everyone else here, when it comes to this. We will see. Just felt like sharing this; with hopes that we can have a discussion about this. 

Once again, keep it civil & nice. 
Thank you all!

[AdunSaveMe]

I have another solution: rework stealth.

The issue isn't just that invisibility is strong. It's that regular stealth is hideously weak, unreliable, bland, and not very fun. It should be a somewhat complex system with visibility based on light level, distance and line of sight, with stealth-specific takedowns, things to hide on, corners to hide on, more ways to tackle encounters. And we don't just need a rework to stealth mechanics: we need a rework to tilesets themselves, to actually allow for these mechanics.

Maybe one day.

[CrazyValkyr]

4 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I have another solution: rework stealth.

The issue isn't just that invisibility is strong. It's that regular stealth is hideously weak, unreliable, bland, and not very fun. It should be a somewhat complex system with visibility based on light level, distance and line of sight, with stealth-specific takedowns, things to hide on, corners to hide on, more ways to tackle encounters. And we don't just need a rework to stealth mechanics: we need a rework to tilesets themselves, to actually allow for these mechanics.

Maybe one day.

Well, I do agree with you on that. Stealth, for the sake of spy-missions, is a bit weak, if you are truly into this kind-of gameplay.

However, the invisibility "problem" in this case, I am addressing for the reason, that it's very-efficient for survival past ridiculous levels, and it's currently the only way in surviving past certain enemy levels, regardless of your setup, gear etc, which is imo wrong & thus, removal of such capability from most setups, without offering viable/working (<--crucial) alternatives is not the best decision. I am not addressing the invisibility for the sake of stealth-runs, like Spy or even Rescues. These are not my strongest, nor my most favorite forte, and I can't really speak about these in much elaborate way, how to change 'stealth' for these, to make it more fun.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

We might as well cap enemy damage as to never be able to instakill the player without a warning.

Oh, and shield gating, weren't we supposed to get it ages ago?

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, JuicyButthurt said:

We might as well cap enemy damage as to never be able to instakill the player without a warning.

Oh, and shield gating, weren't we supposed to get it ages ago?

This. And also add anti-invisibility enemies. Example:

Elite Seekers: Armed with an acrid and improved sensors, these Grineer soldiers can see concealed targets and "paint" them visible for their allies. If you get hit by these units your invisibility is nullified for 3s.

Scout Drones: Osprey with the same function as the Elite Seeker.

Spore Osprey: Mutalyst Osprey similar to the regular ones. Except these have a spore cloud around themselves (radius 1.5m) that reveals cloaked enemies. They can also create Gas clouds like regular infested Ospreys that also taint with spores cloaked targets.

[Gurpgork]

4 hours ago, CrazyValkyr said:

To my understanding, one of reasons of the removal is, to combat 'meta'. But, with removing of this passive, DE is essentially creating even more strict meta, mainly for truly long endless runs, when enemies hit anything above 300's. There's a certain treshold, that enemies will one-shot you, regardless of your setup, regardless of your armor & going invisible is basically only chance of staying alive. And that I think is the real problem & why I am mashing this topic together, despite of mostly not posting on the forums.

Why are you citing level 300 enemies as the reason we need stuff like Shadow Step? Sorties, Kuva Floods, and Nightmare Raids only go up to the 100 range. You're talking about enemies triple that level. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase is absolutely never going to see anything like that. 

I agree that one-shot kills coming out of nowhere with no chance to avoid them are frustrating. But on the other hand, level 300 enemies are an order of magnitude above what the developers have intended and designated as endgame. 

Enemies don't scale forever because we're supposed to go forever. They scale forever specifically to create a point where you can't go any further. Level 300 enemies are well beyond that point. If you want to fight enemies of that level, then more power to ya. But the balance problems that you're going to face at that level are your problem. 

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Gurpgork said:

Why are you citing level 300 enemies as the reason we need stuff like Shadow Step? Sorties, Kuva Floods, and Nightmare Raids only go up to the 100 range. You're talking about enemies triple that level. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase is absolutely never going to see anything like that. 

I agree that one-shot kills coming out of nowhere with no chance to avoid them are frustrating. But on the other hand, level 300 enemies are an order of magnitude above what the developers have intended and designated as endgame. 

Enemies don't scale forever because we're supposed to go forever. They scale forever specifically to create a point where you can't go any further. Level 300 enemies are well beyond that point. If you want to fight enemies of that level, then more power to ya. But the balance problems that you're going to face at that level are your problem. 

*insert standing ovation gif*

[CrazyValkyr]

8 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Enemies don't scale forever because we're supposed to go forever. They scale forever specifically to create a point where you can't go any further. Level 300 enemies are well beyond that point. If you want to fight enemies of that level, then more power to ya. But the balance problems that you're going to face at that level are your problem. 

I don't even have to go that far. Mot Void Survival, where enemies deal much higher damage-amounts, are dangerous when they approach mere 120's - 130's (Which is about an hour and a bit), and will essentially one-shot most 'frames, unless you literally go invisible.

The thing is - just because some people don't see a problem and/or are happy with just 'regular' content - other people like to push their boundries/limits. None of these approaches is inherently wrong or better; it's just that - different. We all find different way as to how to play & enjoy Warframe. So it is a bit unfair to dismiss the problem as 'not my problem, therefore your problem is invalid'.. Mind you, if you truly wish to be technical - in the hands of a skilled/experienced player, said 'endgame' content can be "trivialized" to the point when it poses no real threat or challenge. (When we are talking Sorties, NM & NM LOR level-ranges). But I guess, that's entirely worth whole new discussion. (RE: What is endgame, and what is the intent).

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, CrazyValkyr said:

I don't even have to go that far. Mot Void Survival, where enemies deal much higher damage-amounts, are dangerous when they approach mere 120's - 130's (Which is about an hour and a bit), and will essentially one-shot most 'frames, unless you literally go invisible.

The thing is - just because some people don't see a problem and/or are happy with just 'regular' content - other people like to push their boundries/limits. None of these approaches is inherently wrong or better; it's just that - different. We all find different way as to how to play & enjoy Warframe. So it is a bit unfair to dismiss the problem as 'not my problem, therefore your problem is invalid'.. Mind you, if you truly wish to be technical - in the hands of a skilled/experienced player, said 'endgame' content can be "trivialized" to the point when it poses no real threat or challenge. (When we are talking Sorties, NM & NM LOR level-ranges). But I guess, that's entirely worth whole new discussion. (RE: What is endgame, and what is the intent).

Actually, Warframe has an inverse curve regarding skill:

The more a player advances (ie: gets gear and mods) the less skill is required.

This was made very clear when Kela Da Thaym was reworked: many players with super optimal builds went there and were f*cked because their usual shenanigans didn't work. Kela required skill and  attention, while players are just used to cheese everything.

Invisibility as it is isn't a problem, the problem is that there is nothing the enemy can do to actively counter it. AoE damage and stray fire not accounting as they can be easily bypased with minimum care.

[(PSN)LordBartimus]

DE stated that because of the massive backlash of people and energy overflow, they would include an alternative in PoE. You're right, OP, there should also be a substitute for Shadow Step. I main Ash and I use a Seeking Shuriken/Bladestorm build on him with a panic smoke screen if I need to get out of dodge quick like. But when I hit a point, I use Shadow Step to stay invisible. So you're right. There should be a substitute, and they should work some downsides into it to make it more fair. Cause it can be cheesy. 

[Volinus7]

Shadow step is just a band-aid to OHKO environments in WF in case your warframe doesn't have sufficient defense mechanics. 

Invisibility - enemies interactions were fixed in a small chunk in some updates but ultimately and deliberately reverted to the broken state again and again. Any noise you make like landing, reloading, firing were supposed to attract suppressive fire and enemies should be able to track the source of the sound. More refined if different actions have different radius of noise and minor noises shouldn't alarm the entire tileset immediately. 

Do we want the smell mechanics too? Valve did it back in HL1.

Espionage is not the right chemical in WF anyway that's why it's very underdeveloped.

There's no better way than a handcrafted one when it comes to stealth level and it's supposed to be cleared only once so modular design is pointless. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Volinus7

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Shadow Step was a maiming strike cheese fest. I'm glad it's gone (soon)

That said, I do feel sorry for those that modded and spent plat to build around the cheese. But the cheese is gone, gonna have to learn to live without.

Edited September 26, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)lotus503]

On 9/21/2017 at 1:01 AM, CrazyValkyr said:

Premise: I am not looking to start an argument, flamewar or mindless rage; but rather a civil & positive, constructive discussion on the topic. Please do not go bashing anyone, people who say 'gid gud' just for the sake of it, also need not to reply, as it doesn't contribute to anything in a constructive manner. Let's keep this positive & constructive, pretty please.:)

Note: I enjoy long solo-survival runs. Before I get 'gid gud'd anyways; I can do every survival in the game for at least one hour (it's in fact, the 'casual' runs I do nowadays) & every Defence solo up to wave 40 without using 'Shadow Step' with my Eternal War (Warcry) Valkyr. I am mainly talking about 'survivability' in runs that are intended past two hours & more. Not intended for bragging, I mean, what's there to brag about, merely offering for reference, as to what I am talking about, in terms of 'long endless' runs.

Shadow Step, ay 'git gud' or necessary evil?

A lot of people express the opinion of 'Shadow Step' being OP or 'cheese'. And while I do agree, that the way it works is a wee bit cheesy, it also depicts much larger problem that I am seeing. Invisibility, is one of the most efficient way of mitigating incoming damage, and I would say, ridiculously efficient in doing so. If you utilize good enough parkour & avoid AoE's, you'll be very likely to avoid 99% of damage (but past certain levels, it still does require you to be smart, especially if you run one of the squishier Warframes. so it does not truly trivialize content).

So - Is 'Shadow Step' itself the problem? I would say - No. 

It's the mechanic for invisibility itself, that poses real "problem", and mainly - lack of viable alternatives to it, that resulted in a lot of people simply using 'Shadow Step' as a 'meta'. 

To my understanding, one of reasons of the removal is, to combat 'meta'. But, with removing of this passive, DE is essentially creating even more strict meta, mainly for truly long endless runs, when enemies hit anything above 300's. There's a certain treshold, that enemies will one-shot you, regardless of your setup, regardless of your armor & going invisible is basically only chance of staying alive. And that I think is the real problem & why I am mashing this topic together, despite of mostly not posting on the forums.

So what will happen?

We will be back to old status-quo, of stealth-frames to be the 'master-race' of endless runs. I personally was quite tired of 'Loki-masterrace', as it's simply not a 'frame I enjoy in the slightest. As someone, who prefers a tanky-frame; having armor 3k'ish with all the possible buffs, I feel we shouldn't lag behind, in terms of survivability. My point is, the options of having such a ridiculous survivability will once again, be limited to very-select few setups. And while that is OK for some, it's in my opinion, not OK on the broader scale. 
Let me explain - One of the biggest appeals of Warframe, at least to me, was ability to find my way, to play in certain way, trying to find out how best to adapt to different situations, without having to use 'prescribed' Warframes. Reducing this particular feature takes away the variety that we used to have. 

Shadow Step, like it or not, allowed us to see a true variety of Warframes on the endless runs, as it made them viable on the long runs. Sure, there were people, who used it as purely 'cheesy' way to run through missions; but then again - is using Ivara cheesy for Spy missions? Since she does 'trivialize' the Spy missions & their 'intended' challenge, doesn't she? It cannot be used as a blanket-statement, as otherwise, a lot of abilities in Warframe, that are super efficient & fun, would fall into similar category.

I am not hell-bent on retaining the ability in the exact form it was; I am merely looking at it as a broader-problem I personally am seeing. I want us to retain survivability, without having to result playing one or two specific Warframes & setups. As to how that is achieved - Of course, a constructive feedback should also offer ideas, how to improve things. Full-steam ahead.

Possible solutions?

A) Fairly easy & obvious - Make a return of this passive in some form in the new Arcanes System.

Heck, make it possible for Nullifiers to remove the effect, just like it's with regular invisibility ability. Shorten the duration of invisibility to 5 seconds. Adjust it, so it's reasonable; but so that the option of added survivability, that actually works, if you are smart enough, on truly endless runs.

B) Add alternate, similarly efficient ways of survivability, to non-invisible Warframes. 

That, I feel, is harder, given current setup of how enemies & their scaling works, and would potentially require larger rework of the armor-scaling. But, it would make sense; as then we would have three ways of surviving:

• Shield Tanks, which will be fairly efficient; once Shield-gating is in. 
• Stealth-based survivability - That one doesn't need explanation; we all know how Invisibility/Stealth mechanics work. 
• Armor-based tanks - Needing a severe rework, as right now, even as someone who is full-invested in large armor pool, I feel that investment doesn't even do it the justice.

Obviously, it would take a comittment to a certain style, and not each 'frame is suited for one or the another - but still offering the variety & choice, rather than having to result to one true-way or, 'meta', if you will.

Bottomline

As I said, to me, Warframe has the appeal for me, for the large variety of options presented in front of me, that I could work with, while thinking out of the box. I am a person, who enjoys solo chill & survive for 3-4 hours. (Don't judge, everyone has different fun). Removing of Shadow Step, without offering alternatives (<--- this right there, is the crucial problem for me, as if we have viable alternatives, I can go back on about my regularly scheduled carnage), proves to be sort of in oppositon of that direction. 
Ie. I don't want to be shrugged off with just 'but omg, play this & that Warframe' - keep in mind that we all are different in how we enjoy the game. I respect your style, but please respect mine; in return, that kind of attitude. I want to trust DE they will consider this, and perhaps, they are already step ahead of me & everyone else here, when it comes to this. We will see. Just felt like sharing this; with hopes that we can have a discussion about this. 

Once again, keep it civil & nice. 
Thank you all!

I don't think the idea of doing multiple hours of survival solo or with a pug was ever a thing. I think the thought was always to have a well oiled team of folks to push limits. To this end the narmon change is a welcomed one. You may consider a stealth frame in your group now where previously you could run it with any team or group comp. in tomorrow world if you want to run muti hour survivals you will need a good team with a solid gameplan. 

[CrazyValkyr]

10 hours ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

Shadow Step was a maiming strike cheese fest. I'm glad it's gone (soon)

That said, I do feel sorry for those that modded and spent plat to build around the cheese. But the cheese is gone, gonna have to learn to live without.

In other words, you just didn't want to be constructive & just wanted to say you 'hate' something in a videogame. Alright then. 
Mind you, people use word 'cheese' way too readily in videogames nowadays. Again.. is using Ivara cheese for spy missions? Is using Ember for breezing through low-level content cheese? Is using Mesa's 4th cheese, where it kills everything even up to considerably high levels without an effort? I personally think all of the mentioned are un-fun & wouldn't want to use them, but I accept that not everyone has fun the same way I do, and I let people have their fun too. As simply as that. Have your fun, but let other people have theirs, in their own way.

 

47 minutes ago, (Xbox One)lotus503 said:

I don't think the idea of doing multiple hours of survival solo or with a pug was ever a thing. I think the thought was always to have a well oiled team of folks to push limits. To this end the narmon change is a welcomed one. You may consider a stealth frame in your group now where previously you could run it with any team or group comp. in tomorrow world if you want to run muti hour survivals you will need a good team with a solid gameplan. 

Intent or not; again, it falls down on the difference of how each one of us have fun - I like long-solo survival runs & I want to be able to keep doing them in the future too, without 'omg use Loki, Octavia, [insertwhatever prescribed invisible Frame]'. Again - please keep in mind, there's nothing wrong in having fun in the game, and just because the opinions are vastly different from person to person; it doesn't mean that I; or the other person enjoying themselves a different way, are wrong.

Additionally - I am not going to "ragequit" / rage if 'Shadow Step' doesn't exist in any form; as there are other ways for me to have fun in the game, where Shadow Step is never needed (going from Raids to sorties, still can do about an hour or so of any Surv in the game no probs, etc..). I am merely speaking up to consider this, as it would simply be one less thing I could potentially have fun with in the game. Likewise - I am not hellbent on keeping 'Shadow Step' as is to address the issue I have in the OP. Instead - I want DE to consider potential alternatives to it as well, if they do not retain the ability in some other form (Arcanes).

So far, people only addressed that enemies should respond to invisible players - and I agree.
The way it currently works, invisibility is the most efficient way of surviving AND melee-killing (melee invisibility multipliers), which seems a wee bit onesided and unfair, if it remains available to just very select-few choices. 'Shadow Step' did address this, as that option opened more options, perhaps a bit clumsily, but it did. Overall, it would be better if equivalent survivability options were added, next to enemies reacting better to the invisibility itself, to not invaliadate the added options right off the bat too.

[(XBOX)lotus503]

Just now, CrazyValkyr said:

In other words, you just didn't want to be constructive & just wanted to say you 'hate' something in a videogame. Alright then. 
Mind you, people use word 'cheese' way too readily in videogames nowadays. Again.. is using Ivara cheese for spy missions? Is using Ember for breezing through low-level content cheese? Is using Mesa's 4th cheese, where it kills everything even up to considerably high levels without an effort? I personally think all of the mentioned are un-fun & wouldn't want to use them, but I accept that not everyone has fun the same way I do, and I let people have their fun too. As simply as that. Have your fun, but let other people have theirs, in their own way.

 

Intent or not; again, it falls down on the difference of how each one of us have fun - I like long-solo survival runs & I want to be able to keep doing them in the future too, without 'omg use Loki, Octavia, [insertwhatever prescribed invisible Frame]'. Again - please keep in mind, there's nothing wrong in having fun in the game, and just because the opinions are vastly different from person to person; it doesn't mean that I; or the other person enjoying themselves a different way, are wrong.

Additionally - I am not going to "ragequit" / rage if 'Shadow Step' doesn't exist in any form; as there are other ways for me to have fun in the game, where Shadow Step is never needed (going from Raids to sorties, still can do about an hour or so of any Surv in the game no probs, etc..). I am merely speaking up to consider this, as it would simply be one less thing I could potentially have fun with in the game. Likewise - I am not hellbent on keeping 'Shadow Step' as is to address the issue I have in the OP. Instead - I want DE to consider potential alternatives to it as well, if they do not retain the ability in some other form (Arcanes).

So far, people only addressed that enemies should respond to invisible players - and I agree.
The way it currently works, invisibility is the most efficient way of surviving AND melee-killing (melee invisibility multipliers), which seems a wee bit onesided and unfair, if it remains available to just very select-few choices. 'Shadow Step' did address this, as that option opened more options, perhaps a bit clumsily, but it did. Overall, it would be better if equivalent survivability options were added, next to enemies reacting better to the invisibility itself, to not invaliadate the added options right off the bat too.

You will have frames suited to that, octavia, Loki, Ash and ivara. But no you wont be able to run Nekros and Narmon for two hours without hitting life support.

I too very much love long survival missions, I usually run them solo because I dont have a regular group to play with and I dont like leaving 15 minutes in. I look forward to not every frame being able to handle a solo 2 hour survival, it will mean folks that enjoy that gameplay will have to team up.

[CrazyValkyr]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)lotus503 said:

You will have frames suited to that, octavia, Loki, Ash and ivara. But no you wont be able to run Nekros and Narmon for two hours without hitting life support.

I too very much love long survival missions, I usually run them solo because I dont have a regular group to play with and I dont like leaving 15 minutes in. I look forward to not every frame being able to handle a solo 2 hour survival, it will mean folks that enjoy that gameplay will have to team up.

I feel you're just not following on where my issue truly lies. Folks, who enjoy that gameplay will be severaly limited, in a game, that in my opinion, thrives on offering a vast variety of options to pick from. Limiting said options to a very narrow-list of selected 'frames goes strongly against that.

[(XBOX)lotus503]

22 hours ago, CrazyValkyr said:

I feel you're just not following on where my issue truly lies. Folks, who enjoy that gameplay will be severaly limited, in a game, that in my opinion, thrives on offering a vast variety of options to pick from. Limiting said options to a very narrow-list of selected 'frames goes strongly against that.

I dont see it as limiting frame options as much as creating an environment where players must team up to accomplish it.

[DatDarkOne]

I have read though all of the posts in this topic so far.  Without any doubt the following quote by Gurpgork is the best counter-argument.  

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 8:04 AM, Gurpgork said:

Why are you citing level 300 enemies as the reason we need stuff like Shadow Step? Sorties, Kuva Floods, and Nightmare Raids only go up to the 100 range. You're talking about enemies triple that level. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase is absolutely never going to see anything like that. 

I agree that one-shot kills coming out of nowhere with no chance to avoid them are frustrating. But on the other hand, level 300 enemies are an order of magnitude above what the developers have intended and designated as endgame. 

Enemies don't scale forever because we're supposed to go forever. They scale forever specifically to create a point where you can't go any further. Level 300 enemies are well beyond that point. If you want to fight enemies of that level, then more power to ya. But the balance problems that you're going to face at that level are your problem. 

OP, there is an extremely simple reason stealth/invisibility is so very efficient at survivals. The best way to survive damage is not to take any in the first place.  By this very simple premise, no tank frame will ever out survive a frame that an enemy does not hit.   It works and has been proven so multiple times with F-117, B-2, F-22 Raptor, and Submarines.  What I mean by listing those is that those are the vehicles/methods used when sending in anything else just will not work due to getting destroyed because they were seen.  

So while I understand that you want more options for long endless survival mission runs, I can't help but see it as balance problem for only you(and not the player community).  For the specific reason that endless mission scaling was specifically done to eventually force you out.  That there are very limited combinations that allow for going further doesn't change that reason.  

Now as a regular Ivara main for the past two years, I fully welcome the idea of enemies that can counter and/or seek out invisible frames.  I think that would be cool and fun.  but that's me.  :D

[Epsik-kun]

I enjoy Naramon for enabling a whole different kind of a gameplay, but I do think invisibility on its own is stupidly broken. At the very least, going invisible should not be equal to going invulnerable. It's the complete lack of retaliation from enemies what makes invisibility absurd.

[CrazyValkyr]

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

I enjoy Naramon for enabling a whole different kind of a gameplay, but I do think invisibility on its own is stupidly broken. At the very least, going invisible should not be equal to going invulnerable. It's the complete lack of retaliation from enemies what makes invisibility absurd.

Agreed - But it's the problem of Invisibility as a whole, as a game mechanic & the way it presently works, not the 'Shadow Step' itself. Hence why my OP was attempting to address that; we should be given adequate/equally viable alternatives to survivability (see the part about it, where I mention shield-tanking, Armor-based tanks & invisibility), if 'Shadow Step' is completelly gone from the gameplay. If no viable, efficient alternatives are given, they should think of retaining the ability in some form, even if with tweaks (ie. shortening the duration or invisibility effect being nullified by Nullies). Additionally - The issue with Invisibility (as in, the game mechanic entirely) as a whole should be looked on, too.

As in my opinion, when one game mechanic completelly invalidates everything else (making it completelly/almost useless in comparison), that is the true definition of OP. Let's face it, Invisibility, as a game mechanic, currently is sitting in this 'OP area', as it invalidates regular tanking frames by a wide-margin. Why try to tank, when you can become invisible and ignore damage for most part anyways? So, by that logic, giving it to just very-select few 'frames is hardly fair, reducing in diversity and choices, if we are truly going for endless runs, that span anything longer than hour or so.

So, TL;DR once again.. I am not saying 'omg, keep Shadow Step' by default. I am saying, that removing 'Shadow Step' entirely, without giving alternatives to invisibility, is a bad move. Give us working alternatives to invisibility (tanking being more efficient than it presently is, for example), and I think we all will be happy for it overall.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, CrazyValkyr said:

Give us working alternatives to invisibility (tanking being more efficient than it presently is, for example),

Terminator Assimulate Nyx.  There's the best tank in the whole game.  

Edit: I just remembered something very important to this topic.  Even if there was an unlimited tank mechanic, there would still be an issue of how to kill the enemies to progress further in endless missions.

The reason Ivara is top dog in survivals is because of Sleep Arrow and Covert Lethality.  Without that combination even she reaches a limit to how far she can go.

Edited September 28, 2017 by DatDarkOne
additional info

[TheLexiConArtist]

For the record, ShieldGating won't make shield tanks better than armour/HP tanks either. They will still be two-shot sooner than the latter will be one-shot, and will be one-shot as soon as a source of toxic damage or a Slash proc happens at the levels you describe.

Shield Gating is to be more beneficial to non-tank frames, for not being oneshot in Kuva Floods and Sorties.

 

There are also an increasing number of cases where enemies partially or entirely ignore stealth. Granted, most of these are bosses/minibosses, but there are others. I've seen Mine Ospreys dropping murderballs and Ratels occasionally like to give a few tentative zaps to an ostensibly unseen and unknown player.

Besides that, I have no problem with the difference at unbalanced-for enemy levels, but for god's sake, I'm playing Warframe, not Wargames.

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Within intended balance content (read: sorties + enhancements, as the biggest offender) a player should not be tantamount forced to seek permanent lack of interaction with enemies, whether it be through CC or invisibility, when using the majority of Warframes available.