Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

[Jicematoro]

 

18 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Anyways, no need to start getting salty:  the results respec is not limited by Focus tree. 

 

15 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

For that matter, why are you guys bashing each other? You can respec wherever you want to. There's no need to talk about how stupid people are for their school choices, or how stupid the devs are over a non-existent issue.

I don't know man, I'd love for you to be right on this but Rebecca said She'd be "Making a case study on someone who's obssesed with Naramon"

She brought up her Focus Menu and...

All the Focus was Refunded!... Just for Naramon... Yeah... Not looking like you're right on this Buddy, and as a Zenurik player, I would SERIOUSLY hope that you're right on this, Zenurik is looking terrible.

And just in case you want to accuse me of taking stuff out of context:

PLEASE show me where I'm wrong... I'm not even being sarcastic, or trying to press your buttons, I legitimately hope I missheard or missunderstood what she said.

All it seems is that All lenses on your weapon are being refunded, and all Focus Points are being refunded, only to be available for the tree they were from.

Now, if by "Respec wherever you want to" you mean "You get your (for the sake of example) Zenurik points back so you can respec Zenurik from scratch", yeah, that's the problem, the people who farmed exclusively 1 tree would probably like to switch trees after the Rework, and use the Focus they already farmed as they see fit, you know, reward their efforts, Help them feel like they didn't waste hours/days/weeks of their life on a now useless tree.

[UrielColtan]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Crazy_Mr_J said:

if you add this operator-warrior-mode, i'me sure you will creates new ennemis to defeat with this mode

And this in particular, is a pretty big potential problem. This is one of the reasons why I say using Operators needs to be fully optional.

[phoenix1992]

1 hour ago, Jicematoro said:

Now, if by "Respec wherever you want to" you mean "You get your (for the sake of example) Zenurik points back so you can respec Zenurik from scratch", yeah, that's the problem, the people who farmed exclusively 1 tree would probably like to switch trees after the Rework, and use the Focus they already farmed as they see fit, you know, reward their efforts, Help them feel like they didn't waste hours/days/weeks of their life on a now useless tree.

You wanna hear a joke?
@BornWithTeeth  and @tnccs215 as well.

You see, Steve and Space mom have been talking about how the big bad Naramon and Zenurik are getting removed and replaced with *this*.
Now I may be a little bit... you know distracted about stuff in general, but I never did see any information about... 
Reverting changes and nerfs that were introduced due to Naramon and Zenurik being in the game.
You know like the change of the Drain modifier in Nightmare missions, the speed of enemy level up in endless missions, the *we totally did not increase the amount of Nullifiers and made a Nox unit" both of whom are a form of anti Zenurik and Naramon?
You know... just the small "balance" changes for the past 2 years that were made based on the assumption that everyone and their grandma is running Zenurik and Naramon.

[Kaotyke]

33 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

You wanna hear a joke?
@BornWithTeeth  and @tnccs215 as well.

You see, Steve and Space mom have been talking about how the big bad Naramon and Zenurik are getting removed and replaced with *this*.
Now I may be a little bit... you know distracted about stuff in general, but I never did see any information about... 
Reverting changes and nerfs that were introduced due to Naramon and Zenurik being in the game.
You know like the change of the Drain modifier in Nightmare missions, the speed of enemy level up in endless missions, the *we totally did not increase the amount of Nullifiers and made a Nox unit" both of whom are a form of anti Zenurik and Naramon?
You know... just the small "balance" changes for the past 2 years that were made based on the assumption that everyone and their grandma is running Zenurik and Naramon.

Thats thin foil theory.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Kaotyke said:

Thats thin foil theory.

Correction, this is theory based on "member how things worked before and during the initial run of Focus 1.0", while I am too lazy to pull out all patch notes and tie them in a bundle with witch was changed due to what. 
Considering the Energy Drain for Nightmare modes, I can say for 100% that it was not 5 per sec, due to the fact that I was abusing the crap out of it in Spy + Zenurik + Loki.

[BlueberryIsWar]

40 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Thats thin foil theory.

Its not even the worst. All the Synergy that got introduced to increase energy drain. Ah, the fun that is to come.

[BornWithTeeth]

22 minutes ago, BlueberryIsWar said:

Its not even the worst. All the Synergy that got introduced to increase energy drain. Ah, the fun that is to come.

My favourite 'frame is pretty safe, though, my builds using DISCO EXPLOSIONS ASSAULT EMBER never relied on Zenurik.

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

My favourite 'frame is pretty safe, though, my builds using DISCO EXPLOSIONS ASSAULT EMBER never relied on Zenurik.

hehe, all my builds on my Frames are completely safe also.  Mwuahahahaha

[Insizer]

While I appreciate the attempt to reign in the broken energy economy, I don't think that the Zenurik fix sounds that good:

1. It doesn't sound like it will have much of any effect when you and your team is moving... at all, only defending an objective.  Many frames have this same issue where their capabilities don't handle mobile playstyle that well (Vauban likely being the worst) (side note: I'd also say Volt while certainly not at the top, is up there as riot shield punishes movement heavily).  If I am reading this right then why bootstrap this issue to Zenurik?
2. I also couldn't care less about melee channeling efficiency because there is still little reason to use it outside of lifestrike, and probably even less of a reason given how crit combo happy melee has become.  I know someone will call me an unenlightened heathen for saying this, but I don't care.  But more info will come later on the other routes.

I spent an hour or more writing a response about the new focus system as a whole, but there is still too many unknowns.  Unknowns that can make or break the focus system: "will investing in your operator be worth it, will you use your operator for more than a couple seconds?" "Will your actives be practical" "will your passives for your warframe (the only ones that will matter in the end) still be penalized by focusing on your actives or operator passives?" "Are the warframe passives (residuals) going to be as unbalanced as they are now?" "Are we still going to have nodes branching off of completely unrelated nodes (everything that branched from Energy Surge)?"

So many questions.

But thanks for keeping us posted.

[tnccs215]

3 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

You wanna hear a joke?
@BornWithTeeth  and @tnccs215 as well.

You see, Steve and Space mom have been talking about how the big bad Naramon and Zenurik are getting removed and replaced with *this*.
Now I may be a little bit... you know distracted about stuff in general, but I never did see any information about... 
Reverting changes and nerfs that were introduced due to Naramon and Zenurik being in the game.
You know like the change of the Drain modifier in Nightmare missions, the speed of enemy level up in endless missions, the *we totally did not increase the amount of Nullifiers and made a Nox unit" both of whom are a form of anti Zenurik and Naramon?
You know... just the small "balance" changes for the past 2 years that were made based on the assumption that everyone and their grandma is running Zenurik and Naramon.

Oh, but this is a pve game! What one person chooses totally has no effect on the grand scheme of things and totally  doesn't led to changes of the general game in order to accommodate them! /s

Tired of this conversation, when will people understand that the opportunities they have access to affect the game, and the rate of reward gaining and difficulty increase the devs want - and that everything is changed to account for everything. 

But no, let's continue to pretend Nullifiers are OK and weren't a reaction to power spam. Let's pretend energy leeches aren't common eximii because of how easy it is to get energy. Let's pretend the armor and level scaling aren't answers to the stupid power creep. 

The game changed fundamentally so that the effects of abusive mechanics weren't as obvious - God forbid you just take them away. And now the effects are out on the open. 

Ugh. This game either gets a major rebalancing, or sooner or later it will eat itself. 

[DatDarkOne]

19 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

But no, let's continue to pretend Nullifiers are OK and weren't a reaction to power spam. Let's pretend energy leeches aren't common eximii because of how easy it is to get energy. Let's pretend the armor and level scaling aren't answers to the stupid power creep. 

The game changed fundamentally so that the effects of abusive mechanics weren't as obvious - God forbid you just take them away. And now the effects are out on the open. 

Hehe, honestly none of that bothers me.  None of the enemies mentioned above really.  That's just me and I can't speak for everyone else.  It's just the upcoming changes won't really effect my playstyle much if at all.  Well outside of the new PoE.  I'm just patiently waiting for the update to come so I can properly see how to improvise, adapt, and overcome.  

[tnccs215]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

Hehe, honestly none of that bothers me.  None of the enemies really.  That's just me and I can't speak for everyone else.  It's just the upcoming changes won't really effect my playstyle much if at all.  Well outside of the new PoE.  I'm just patiently waiting for the update to come so I can properly see how to improvise, adapt, and overcome.  

Well, Nullifiers bother me. A lot. Have you played Equinox around them? I get triggered by the sound of her abilities deactivating and I'm not too sure whether I'm joking or not. 

[(PSN)Wicked_Toker]

Look as a 5 year veteran player I've seen Warframe in its infancy stage on the verge of bankruptcy to what it has become now & its very impressive. The 3rd person open world is a huge step forward for Warframe. This new focus system is basically going to be garbage it will lose its luster quickly. I will explain why. The operator is not very strong to go toe to toe with the enemy scaling system that Warframe built. I see a lot of switching between your operator & frame in mission which is AGGRAVATING & FRUSTRATING. You know its ok to leave things the way they are, If DE wanted to create a warrior mode for the operator just add on to the focus abilities don't force us to use this garbage because its going to be weak for a very long time let us build are operator up till he can with stand an onslaught from the enemy scaling system. Veterans like myself all we have is what is called end-game play not much else to do in Warframe when you get to a point in the game & have everything. The greatest ability they took away was naramon & zenurik for those players that dont utilize a set of energize. Naramons Shadow Step & Deadly Intent allowed us to bypass something that was sorely needed in this game for a long time. WHICH SEEMS EVERYONE FORGETS THIS. It allowed DIVERSITY in Warframe. Getting rid of the boring a-ss camp method that Warframe is about to go back to. Cause thats whats going to happen.

To me & many end game players will agree there was no need to cut any of those abilities out of those schools because of the enemy scaling in this game you cant even justifiably say that Zenurik or Naramon are even slighly over powered. The White Knights that do...& Content Creators truly do not understand the game they play! 

[DatDarkOne]

Don't have all Equinox parts yet.  No rush as she's not a frame I'm in a hurry to get just yet.  

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

Oh, but this is a pve game! What one person chooses totally has no effect on the grand scheme of things and totally  doesn't led to changes of the general game in order to accommodate them! /s

Tired of this conversation, when will people understand that the opportunities they have access to affect the game, and the rate of reward gaining and difficulty increase the devs want - and that everything is changed to account for everything. 

But no, let's continue to pretend Nullifiers are OK and weren't a reaction to power spam. Let's pretend energy leeches aren't common eximii because of how easy it is to get energy. Let's pretend the armor and level scaling aren't answers to the stupid power creep. 

The game changed fundamentally so that the effects of abusive mechanics weren't as obvious - God forbid you just take them away. And now the effects are out on the open. 

Ugh. This game either gets a major rebalancing, or sooner or later it will eat itself. 

"Easy", if you rock that specific meta build and those specific arcanes, mid tier anyway. You act like it has not been weapons > powers as far as scaling goes, yet ammo is much more plentiful than energy, stamina is gone, and very few of your weapons become unusable due to enemy bubbles. You also act like power "spamming" is not a reaction to things like bad armor and damage scaling, as opposed to being the cause of it. This is typically why CC, support, and tanks have always been favored over damage dealing powers in higher tiers. Pure damage powers tended to fall off and become inferior to weapons.

DE likely only even scaled things so absurdly high not because they had to, but because they simply wanted to, probably because they think it would artificially extend playtime till the next update, or to get people to buy certain things, like full prime access sets, or plat for rivens. Post hoc ergo proper hoc is otherwise, flimsy reasoning.

 

[tnccs215]

8 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

"Easy", if you rock that specific meta build and those specific arcanes, mid tier anyway. 

I'm not even getting what you're saying here. Are you accusing me of saying the game is easy? Because I didn't do that. I called it exploitative and unbalanced. Not easy. 

9 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

You act like it has not been weapons > powers as far as scaling goes, yet ammo is much more plentiful than energy, stamina is gone, and very few of your weapons become unusable due to enemy bubbles.

Not really... When I was talking about power creep, I was actually thinking about weapons. But OK, whatever, when you got World of Fire trivializing 90% of the gameplay the average player deals with - and being defended because it doesn't trivialize more than that - this really doesn't matter too much. 

 

12 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

You also act like power "spamming" is not a reaction to things like bad armor and damage scaling, as opposed to being the cause of it. This is typically why CC, support, and tanks have always been favored over damage dealing powers in higher tiers. Pure damage powers tended to fall off and become inferior to weapons.

Actually... It kinda is the cause. Once upon a time, level 50 was high level. Then exploitative, power-cost-nullifying tools appeared, along with corrupted mods and particularly broken powers. And the cheese began to happen. And it happened so much, people started to get to levels they weren't originally meant to reach. But it was fun, so they continue. And continue. And continue. You get the gist.

Funny thing about this is that you yourself are acting as if I was talking exclusively about raw, killing power. Putting words on my mouth and removing others, all the while clearly misunderstanding what I said. I was not talking exclusively about damage issues.  Indeed, the vast majority of the problems go way beyond the killing power - but yes, they include them. No, the biggest issues are map wide CC, invisibility, full blown invincibility, infinite energy, abilities that with one cast literally wipe all enemies of a certain  faction... The list goes on, and it's composed by a mixture of terrible player balancing and enemy balancing, with each being powered up as we went on with little regard to the consequences.

But sure. Try to excuse it. You really totally right in doing so. 

[tnccs215]

39 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Don't have all Equinox parts yet.  No rush as she's not a frame I'm in a hurry to get just yet.  

Don't bother too much. She's effective, but lacks in good design. 

[DatDarkOne]

Just now, tnccs215 said:

Don't bother too much. She's effective, but lacks in good design. 

Oh I wasn't.  I'm very content just playing my little Ivara solo in this nice little game until I get tired of playing it.  

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

I'm not even getting what you're saying here. Are you accusing me of saying the game is easy? Because I didn't do that. I called it exploitative and unbalanced. Not easy. 

Not really... When I was talking about power creep, I was actually thinking about weapons. But OK, whatever, when you got World of Fire trivializing 90% of the gameplay the average player deals with - and being defended because it doesn't trivialize more than that - this really doesn't matter too much. 

 

Actually... It kinda is the cause. Once upon a time, level 50 was high level. Then exploitative, power-cost-nullifying tools appeared, along with corrupted mods and particularly broken powers. And the cheese began to happen. And it happened so much, people started to get to levels they weren't originally meant to reach. But it was fun, so they continue. And continue. And continue. You get the gist.

Funny thing about this is that you yourself are acting as if I was talking exclusively about raw, killing power. Putting words on my mouth and removing others, all the while clearly misunderstanding what I said. I was not talking exclusively about damage issues.  Indeed, the vast majority of the problems go way beyond the killing power - but yes, they include them. No, the biggest issues are map wide CC, invisibility, full blown invincibility, infinite energy, abilities that with one cast literally wipe all enemies of a certain  faction... The list goes on, and it's composed by a mixture of terrible player balancing and enemy balancing, with each being powered up as we went on with little regard to the consequences.

But sure. Try to excuse it. You really totally right in doing so. 

Still seeing post hoc ergo proper hoc reasoning, and the exaggerated notion that everyone is using the likes of arcane sets and max Zenurik EO. Trinity would not have been so used if that were the case and Trinity would not be so used if accessibility to energy was as plentiful as you claim. Clearly not everyone is as decked out as the meta twitch streamers you watch.

You act like a level 50 back then is what a level 50 is today and that things like spawn caps or Damage 2.0 did not happen, where different damage types and resistance obfuscated things quite a bit.

As for not talking about damage, you are the one who brought up armor scaling.

[letir]

Still no response or recognition from developers. Meanwhile hype site about to begin.

Welp, we still have improved Focus cap.

Investors, are you down on The Focus? There's only one answer: invest more time and platinum. The Void rewards faith.

[cburger7000]

the only reason i use zenurik is because of its efficiency and convinience. if this is how its gonna be, then i guess ill stick to mana pods and go with another school.

[Jicematoro]

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Oh, but this is a pve game! What one person chooses totally has no effect on the grand scheme of things and totally  doesn't led to changes of the general game in order to accommodate them! /s

Tired of this conversation, when will people understand that the opportunities they have access to affect the game, and the rate of reward gaining and difficulty increase the devs want - and that everything is changed to account for everything. 

But no, let's continue to pretend Nullifiers are OK and weren't a reaction to power spam. Let's pretend energy leeches aren't common eximii because of how easy it is to get energy. Let's pretend the armor and level scaling aren't answers to the stupid power creep. 

The game changed fundamentally so that the effects of abusive mechanics weren't as obvious - God forbid you just take them away. And now the effects are out on the open. 

Ugh. This game either gets a major rebalancing, or sooner or later it will eat itself. 

We got here because DE didn't fix the problems as they started rising and instead started balancing the game around them, which has led to the downward (or Upward) spiral that we're stuck in.

Yes, the player plays a part, but we're not the ones with the power to change the game, the developers are. Sure, we can influence changes by the way we play and the way we feedback, but ultimately, the ones with the power here are the Employees at DE.

The moment a mechanic implemented in the game proved to be exploitable or to go against DE's vision of how the game is meant to be played, is the moment they should have mobilized to fix it, not 2 years down the line after everyone got used to it and is extremely reluctant to try a new thing.

We like to throw around the "It's a Beta" as a joke or a defense, but it can be used the other way around too, it IS a beta, they CAN change almost everything about it at the moment they want, however they want, and all WE can realistically do about it is vote with our Wallets/Hours.

I understand DE is in a complicated position, I don't envy them at all, they've "pleased" us for far too long and we're too used to it, we might not react properly to substantial change, this IS a free to play game, and if the public doesn't like the way it evolves they'll slowly stop playing/paying for it.

Of course they'll sometimes change their mind about nerfing stuff just to make the players happy, but what good is that for if immediately after they add a system to punish the player for doing the thing they don't like?

TL;DR: Does the player play a part? Yes. Is the player as, or more Responsible than DE? No, I don't think so. Should DE be swifter with dealing with problems, if only to avoid having to build a castle on top of them? Definitely.

In the Topic of Warframes and their abilities there are too many questions to ask, and it doesn't seem we'll be getting any answers for them any time soon; off the top of my head:

• If abilities aren't meant to be used and abused, Why are Caster Frames even a thing? They're extremely frail and rely on constant movement and ability Casting to stay alive.
• If we're not meant to use abilities all that often, What good is running a Caster Frame over, say, P/Valkyr, Inaros, Nidus or Rhino?
• If DE doesn't want us to, Why is it even possible to spam abilities?
• Where are the cooldowns? Wouldn't the best way to prevent players from spamming be having cooldowns? And on that Topic.
• Why do we still have energy? We wouldn't need mechanics like Energy Siphon, Overflow, or Energy Pads if Warframes were capable of just using their abilities with a Cooldown. Or better yet...

And here I went ahead, got excited and wrote a huge rework to the energy system, I'm not a developer, I admit I'm likely not the right guy to try and fix a system that's not completely broken, but I had fun with it, everyone, feel free to skip it.

 

Why don't we have, just like with the operator, an energy pool that feeds all of our abilities, is constantly recharging, and is only large enough to allow a limited number of casts before having to wait and recharge? As long as we only use this pool for Warframe abilities (instead of, say, Shooting and Moving around faster), I don't think there's much room for error here.

• They balance the energy consumption of each ability based on it's utility/strenght.
• Abilities like Hysteria and PeaceMaker can run on a separate pool if deemed necessary.
• Energy Orbs don't need to dissapear, players will appreciate having a chance to cast more often, even if it's not extremely common/accessible.
• Energy pads, Gone! Or at least severly nerfed, and maybe under a cooldown similar or harsher than the Landing Craft's Air Support Charges.
• Melee channeling? Innate Ability all Warframes have.
  • Gives a small-decent damage boost.
  • Cast it by pressing the Channeling Button with your Melee out.
  • Uses a fixed ammount of energy at cast, say, 25% of your total energy pool (at base).
  • Remains active for a fixed ammount of time, maybe even if you switch weapons.
  • Blocks/Slows energy recharge for the duration of the channeling, Maybe adds a small Energy Vampire effect (Enemies hit with your Channeled Melee charge your energy pool slightly). This as a means to give weight and risk to its use.
• Eximus? Gone.
• Magnetic Procs? Nerfed to an acceptable degree.
• Nullifiers? Still here, but few and far between (kinda like Noxes), maybe buffed to compensate for this. Which would make lore-sense with a simple adjustment. If "Nullifier technology is EXTREMELY expensive to manufacture", it'd explain why the Corpus don't just equip all of their units with Bubbles, the finantial risk is not worth more than a couple!

[DatDarkOne]

6 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

I understand DE is in a complicated position, I don't envy them at all, they've "pleased" us for far too long and we're too used to it, we might not react properly to substantial change, this IS a free to play game, and if the public doesn't like the way it evolves they'll slowly stop playing/paying for it.

People seem to either forget or overlook this.

8 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

• If abilities aren't meant to be used and abused, Why are Caster Frames even a thing? They're extremely frail and rely on constant movement and ability Casting to stay alive.
• If we're not meant to use abilities all that often, What good is running a Caster Frame over, say, P/Valkyr, Inaros, Nidus or Rhino?
• If DE doesn't want us to, Why is it even possible to spam abilities?
• Where are the cooldowns? Wouldn't the best way to prevent players from spamming be having cooldowns? And on that Topic.
• Why do we still have energy? We wouldn't need mechanics like Energy Siphon, Overflow, or Energy Pads if Warframes were capable of just using their abilities with a Cooldown? Or better yet...

I managed to answer all those problems in regards to me and how I play by building for Efficiency.  I realized a good while ago that you get quite a bit of energy orb drops when you kill enough enemies. Doing that in combination of weapons/mods with energy return synd procs helps even more.  Drop a pad at the very beginning of the mission and never really have to worry about energy again.

But that's me, and I've never said that others couldn't do as they wanted.  I would sometimes ask why they would do something.  :D 

[UrielColtan]

What are the particular powers we are even referring to? I saw a complaint about EV Trin but that isn't a setup exactly dependent on Zenurik anyway, and it is one frame, a support frame at that. Are we honestly going to shame a support frame for being a support frame? I'm getting vibes of that guy from Tennocon who proposed to his girlfriend. What are the other powers that are such a "problem" on any  high scale irrelevant to the seeming desire by DE to stear you toward buying that Prime set or Riven mod instead? 

[Jicematoro]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

I managed to answer all those problems in regards to me and how I play by building for Efficiency.  I realized a good while ago that you get quite a bit of energy orb drops when you kill enough enemies. Doing that in combination of weapons/mods with energy return synd procs helps even more.  Drop a pad at the very beginning of the mission and never really have to worry about energy again.

But that's me, and I've never said that others couldn't do as they wanted.  I would sometimes ask why they would do something.  :D 

Well, yes and no, assuming you only really run Ivara, yes, she's that perfect, so I don't doubt you have!

As for others, it really depends, Sometimes you just cannot afford to go Full Energy Efficiency without sacrificing Your Warframe's Efficiency at the battlefied. You either don't have space, or cannot afford the Loss on Duration/Strenght/Range. Sometimes you just HAVE to Spam/Mantain your abilities to be useful like a certain pixie I'm always seen with around here or just stay alive, even with full efficiency it can be overwhelming! And if the RNG doesn't keep up with you, it may or may not end pretty...