The new Zenurik... Just no

[Borg1611]

1 minute ago, LazerSkink said:

 

It would be an active in this case. If it's referred to as a passive in game, that needs a change.

I probably should have said "to refresh a buff."

The new tree nodes have two shapes and I believe one is for passives. The new void dash energy zone thing isn't the passive shape so I don't think they consider it a passive. 

[Mu_Gera]

On 10/2/2017 at 6:36 AM, Navarchus said:

I really like the new Zenurik concept, instead of total immortality & infinite energy it requires the player to.. play. I'm a big fan of playing games.

Old zenurik let you do that, arguably more than the new one since you could pop it and keep playing whatever the objective was or whatever. Now you have to refresh it, limiting you by stopping to do that when you do.

[PsiWarp]

I guess most people are now jaded by years of press 5 twice and off we go feeling fresh with energy regen forever. It never felt right to me to just pop Operator once and forget about it unless I actually try to use their Ghost power and/or refresh the passives (like New Moon). We didn't have a choice then with how long the cooldowns were.

I'm actually glad that Focus 2.0 aims to empower players who do go through with the tag-team wombo combos. They introduced it with Kuva Siphons, albeit too hectically with how fragile Operators are. Now that Operators are more survivable, I might just be able to reap the rewards without being thrown back into my frame or bleed out the moment I risk Transference.

I hope Zenurik is not as mandatory as before, and that there are still energy gain improvements outside of Focus (they mentioned something for update notes, lets see if those are worthwhile).

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

On 02/10/2017 at 11:16 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Nova, frost/vauban and inaros/nidus and you are set. Theres no need for more, trinities cost is to the player who choosed her. Apart from raids we never really needed trinity but with this change she will be the most popular pizza replacement and after her there will be harrow who is simply inferior to her.

Someone gonna sacrafice his enjoyment to make other happy.

 

S> trinity 1000p

Start farming guys

[Misgenesis]

3 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

I hope Zenurik is not as mandatory as before, and that there are still energy gain improvements outside of Focus (they mentioned something for update notes, lets see if those are worthwhile).

I agree with your post except this. In no way is it mandatory as we did just fine before it. Its just players becoming jaded as you mentioned.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

I agree with your post except this. In no way is it mandatory as we did just fine before it. Its just players becoming jaded as you mentioned.

People were fine without dual stat elemental mods before and now theyre mandatory if you want a status build. Just because thinhs were "fine" in the past that doesnt mean that new items/powers/mods cant be mandatory.

Just like tapwater is mandatory nowadays regardless on how fine were our grandparents with getting water from the well.

Zenurik is mandatory for low efficiency builds, althought some may argue that its unneeded as we have pizzas what is another mandatory requiement for these builds.

You know what will be the only positive outcome of this?

EV trinities will be popular and welcome again, with "soo many" energy sources around they became pointless to use unless you do long runs or trials.

[Mudfam]

10 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

At around 5 hours 18 minutes in this stream:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/179931536

they demonstrate the Zenurik energy zone. Apparently it applies a 30 second buff of 5 energy per second, so in some ways it's a minor buff in that you can now use it at the very start of a mission and it restores 1 more energy per second. Rebecca also said they may stack if multiple people are using Zenurik, but she wasn't sure if that was the case.

That's actually much better than I thought it would be. I was about to rant about it sounding like some tedious and annoying way to force us to use and grind for operators, but having watched the video it actually seems pretty fluid and almost skillful. That is if they fix the incredibly buggy state of operators under any kind of lag which can easily result in helpless deaths.

I still don't think the change is warranted, I still think the hypothetical and purely abstract min-maxing ability spammer conspiracy theories are ridiculous. But I don't see a huge problem. I might very well get annoyed with it after doing it 10'000 times though. Time will tell.

Some people will always choose the path of least resistance, and I don't think zenurik was ever it with all the lazy superior options out there. I will probably give this a go if it means I can actually use things like nova's wormhole or volt's shield once in a while, just because I find them cool and fun.

i've edited my original post to include this new information. I think at this point I'll reserve further judgement. Meanwhile we can still abusively exchange our differing opinions about the energy economy.

[Nirrel]

10 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

At around 5 hours 18 minutes in this stream:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/179931536

they demonstrate the Zenurik energy zone. Apparently it applies a 30 second buff of 5 energy per second, so in some ways it's a minor buff in that you can now use it at the very start of a mission and it restores 1 more energy per second. Rebecca also said they may stack if multiple people are using Zenurik, but she wasn't sure if that was the case. 

That is less annoying certainly than having to stand in the zone, but it's still an unnecessary chore. 

 

I agree.

It's already better if I don't have to sit in the bubble.

BTW, would be interesting to know if it stacks, and if it does what that even mean. It will last twice as long or it will give you twice as much for the duration, both? If it's for duration only than it's cool, if it stack quantitatively than it's the ultimate cheese...so hope not...

[Mudfam]

6 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

I agree.

It's already better if I don't have to sit in the bubble.

BTW, would be interesting to know if it stacks, and if it does what that even mean. It will last twice as long or it will give you twice as much for the duration, both? If it's for duration only than it's cool, if it stack quantitatively than it's the ultimate cheese...so hope not...

Yeah, if it stacks regeneration of 5 energy per second then it's too much. I thought 5/sec was a good counterbalance to having down time between refreshing it, but more than that doesn't seem justifiable. Still no idea what abilities you might spam with this when the most OP abilities just don't need to be spammed anyway though.

[Gurpgork]

6 hours ago, Nirrel said:

If it's for duration only than it's cool, if it stack quantitatively than it's the ultimate cheese...so hope not...

Plus if it stacks quantitatively, then it will rapidly create yet another "Zenurik or GTFO" meta, whereas if only the duration stacks, then it would be convenient to have more Zenurik users, but you'd really only gain QoL from it. 

I hope that it doesn't stack, because then it would be a lot easier to justify using Naramon or Madurai, because someone else in my squad is fairly likely to be packing Zenurik. 

[(PSN)TertulSee]

On 10/2/2017 at 3:15 AM, Mudfam said:

Edit based on new information:

This thread was created in response to this:

Which made it sound like we had to stand somewhere to regain energy. Apparently that is not the case, but rather a 30 second buff is granted when entering it as shown in this stream at 5 hours and 19 minutes.

It does look like it might get tedious doing this to keep your energy up, but it is much more fluid and generally better than I expected. That is if they fix the terrible lag issues with operators. The original premise of the thread is not really relevant anymore.

The discussion about energy economy is still relevant. Seems those of us that want to stay mobile and use our powers have to jump through some extra hoops, for those that are concerned about hypothetical ability spam it looks like things maybe got a bit worse (if it really stacks), but I don't think EO was ever what supported cheesy lazy strategies given the superior options out there.

 

Original post:

This game's strengths are its fast pace and mobility. I play it because leaping around like spiderman had way too many stimulants and using powers is fun. That's what keeps me playing after years. Without that, eeeehh..?

So now with Focus 2.0 in place of energy overflow we get a deployable bubble, because Ninjas... Sit in bubbles!

This is just such an incredibly awful idea. It is both redundant and detrimental to gameplay. Scrap it immediately.

This isn't a way to balance energy gains, it's the opposite. EO didn't need balancing anyway, it was the only balanced energy mechanic, it gave consistent and predictable regeneration. All other sources of energy are sporadic and completely unbalanced. Yeah, yeah, "caster frames did fine before EO", that was when you just didn't leave the house without Mummy (Trinity). I don't ever want to go back to that - it's broken on so many levels.

With all the incredibly broken unbalanced things in this game, why did we have to kill the one thing that made perfect sense with a gameplay nerf? This is not what supports the meta of channeled abilities and spam cheese tactics, broken efficiency modding and EV does that, pizzas do that. All this does is give the finger to energy hungry frames that need to actively use their abilities and mobility to be effective - these are already in a bad spot compared to the invincible / invisible / tanky / channeled monster frames that support a lazy playstyle and barely need any energy at all.

EO is popular, but for once that's because it is a good mechanic, not an OP mechanic, and because everything else is garbage unless you perversely enjoy Naramon cheese. It is not what enables all that smelly cheese, and if it does enable something OP then that's the thing that needs to be looked at - not the one and only sensible and balanced mechanic we ever had.

Regardless of all of that, Warframe is at its best when it's about going fast, about using mobility and the environment. Campy farm tactics have always been its bane, please just stop steering the game in that direction. Stop encouraging us to stay still and lock everything down, stop punishing us for wanting to move by adding a cost to it. This doesn't only apply here.

I think I heard that after you enter the bubble, you gain the full regen even if you step out of the bubble. Am I right or delusional?

[PsiWarp]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)godlysparta said:

I think I heard that after you enter the bubble, you gain the full regen even if you step out of the bubble. Am I right or delusional?

Yes, it's like Octavia's Inspiration passive buff, except much more energy per second (1 vs. 5). You can hop into Operator mode at any time and Void Dash, creating new bubbles that you can either stay in (keeping the Energizing Dash buff on yourself without a timer counting down) or move through keeping the buff (30 seconds). You can even go into the same bubble or a new bubble again to refresh that 30 seconds.

[Mudfam]

If this is true then we're back to square one:

8s duration only works for campy situations where you can keep refreshing it.

Edit: nevermind, false alarm. I was only just shown this, but apparently this is older news and it was since buffed to 30s. GG.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Mudfam

[Wandrecanada]

Diablo 3 and Path of Exiles has made the idea of Mana into a basic sustainability meter.  If the meter drains too fast you cannot sustain that ability so it should be used sparingly.  Destiny has used a straight cooldown system to avoid mana altogether.  Certain actions can reduce the cooldowns and make some builds more ability focused but guns are the main form of attack.

Warframe's system is hamstrung by an old mana mechanic. Should some abilities be allowed as primary means of attack? Can the Warframe mana system support the idea of a true caster without unbalancing the entire game? This might be too much of a big picture issue that requires a break with the current mana system as a whole.

In fact we might need to see Warframes who's mechanics break with mana entirely and focus their individual mechanics on their primary damage role.  Gun focused, Melee focused, Cast focused? Mix some unique mechanics that either don't use mana at all or use alternate resources (melee combo meters, headshots, killed targets etc...)

Maybe it's time for Warframe to dump the Everybody's Mana trope and break those energy chains.

[Rizzcone]

On 2.10.2017 at 10:02 PM, Mudfam said:

.Some people will use it to forego efficiency on their already disgustingly overpowered frames? 

This is what drives me mad with this game's community, someone is enjoying his press 4 to kill character, but im not getting kills that way, NERF IT! Or you could just get the F out and play solo if everything irritates you so much (keep in mind im not talking about specific person here). Constant complaining about stuff that they dont need to use if they dont want to, but nooo its not enough, we dont like it so you cant use it neither. Freaking big crybabies, if you dont like your frame with infinite energy dont use EO thats all, dont make us pay with our gameplay style (which is pretty laidback tbh, but i f&%king enjoy it thats why im still playing this game!) just because you dont enjoy feeling confident with your energy pool. I get some people might like their frame ba ,,harder" to play, constant looking around if enemy dropped fuel orb, but not everyone is such hardcore player. And tbh i know noone cares about this i dont know if id be still playing after this energy nerf, only thing i have in any of my schools unlocked is this energy regeneration. And ever since they introduced those void creeps, the so called tenno children i was affraid the day will come when we will be forced to use them, which i personally dont enjoy at all, i hate doing this dash to stun kuva fatties, and i certainly will hate being forced to use them to regen my energy, so peace out and Cheers.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Rizzcone
Few typos

[Rizzcone]

On 3.10.2017 at 1:13 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I literally was not arrogant in any sense. How about you try what you were using before EO existed....

I was using many frames back then and i had around 300h of gameplay, after EO came i got up to 1,2k so i think i personally enjoy it more now... 

[Nirrel]

On 07/10/2017 at 10:06 PM, Mudfam said:

If this is true then we're back to square one:

8s duration only works for campy situations where you can keep refreshing it.

Edit: nevermind, false alarm. I was only just shown this, but apparently this is older news and it was since buffed to 30s. GG.

After all it wasn't a false alarm... Pretty ridicolous...

[Valaska]

On 10/2/2017 at 1:01 PM, Emulad0or said:

It's like people don't know that Streamline and Fleeting Expertise exist, or they believe Blind Rage is a must in every build...

You guys should be happy we are getting some new way to get energy instead of just removing Energy Overload it and be done with it.

Energy Overload was never necessary. We were fine before it, we will be fine after it's gone

... Do you not remember how demanded EV was back in the day and how if you were anything like Saryn etc you were completely incapable of being taken anyways because you were nothing but a lost asset since the rank rage builds were the only thing worth while outside of Trinity...?

[Valaska]

On 10/5/2017 at 7:30 PM, Borg1611 said:

At around 5 hours 18 minutes in this stream:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/179931536

they demonstrate the Zenurik energy zone. Apparently it applies a 30 second buff of 5 energy per second, so in some ways it's a minor buff in that you can now use it at the very start of a mission and it restores 1 more energy per second. Rebecca also said they may stack if multiple people are using Zenurik, but she wasn't sure if that was the case. 

That is less annoying certainly than having to stand in the zone, but it's still an unnecessary chore. 

I think many people will still find it obnoxious that you are forced to change to your operator every 30 seconds to refresh a passive, which is forcing us to use our operators many more times during a mission than we had previously (before we only had to pop our focus ability once a mission to activate our passive, which never really felt right to begin with). Personally I would just give the zone buff an infinite duration so you only have to apply it once a mission (or once per death?) and call it a day. 

Some people just do not want to play operator tag team, there's no reason to make them refresh a 30 second regen buff. It isn't any more compelling that way. It doesn't create interesting gameplay. Having to look up in the corner to see if my buff icon is still there and how much time I have left on it, or just excessively over re-applying the buff to make sure it doesn't fall off isn't going to make people enjoy Warframe combat more. It just forces people to use their operator, even if just for a second every 30 seconds. Why? Just let people not use their operators any more than we have to. We get that the devs think it's cool, and that's fine, but not all players do and there's no reason to force it onto them anymore than it already is. It really doesn't make the game better in any meaningful way to push this operator tag team chore onto people. That's all it is. A little chore you have to do to keep a buff up. People will deal with it if they have to, but they shouldn't have to. It just isn't a positive change for the game. Why do you want us to swap to operators for a second every 30 seconds to provide a buff to our Warframes? It just interrupts the flow of combat for buff maintenance.

Honestly... I hate operators and I wish they just stayed in their chair... I thought it was much more entertaining that way to be frank. I just want to play warframe not Infamous on PS3.

[AmaliaKalio]

On 10/7/2017 at 3:06 PM, Mudfam said:

If this is true then we're back to square one:

8s duration only works for campy situations where you can keep refreshing it.

Edit: nevermind, false alarm. I was only just shown this, but apparently this is older news and it was since buffed to 30s. GG.

...That's not the only change. Unless something causes Void Siphon and Void Flow to change at higher ranks, this is inaccurate. The current descriptions are as follows:
Void Siphon:
Increase Operator Energy Regeneration by [x]%

Void Flow:
Increase Operator Energy by [x]%

That's a huge difference. It also means that if you want to have sustainable damage output when attacking a Terralyst, this is kind of mandatory. Nevermind the MR24 test implications.

It should be noted that the text for all other items has also changed slightly, but is otherwise generally the same. I'm sure this applies to the numbers as well.

Edit: Upon further testing, the energy seems to apply to Void Mode, which is an entirely separate pool from your beam.

Edited October 15, 2017 by AmaliaKalio

[Hellmaker2004]

I find the new Zenurik to be great in almost all aspects i have tested except one. Although the new passives and the redesign on the passive energy regeneration is great and promotes a more active role since you need to reactivate it, it does suffer from two issues.

 

1: Overwrites each other. If you have more than one player in the team with the Zenurik Dash ability the last one you entered will overwrite the one before, for better or worse it can cancel a maxed out one for a level one and thus giving less energy and lasting for a shorter time.

 

2: A lot of hoops to activate the dash, having the dash is great since it promote a more active play style and can also give it to allies that want to go a different path. However likewise it suffers from the problem that you need to go into operator, dash and hopefully not have to much momentum to launch yourself out of the area, return to Frame and thus be rewarded with the energy regeneration.

 

They need to fix issue one clearly, since it punishes the team severely for having someone in the team that have yet to max out or even been able to put some points into the focus ability. And i personally would also like if they could allow us a faster way to void dash without having to enter operator mode every time. Other than that i find the new focus system so far to be far superior to the old one.