Some basic concepts DE needs to understand

[DrProfSirCarmen]

45 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

There's none.

I fail to see how some people just refuse to understand. Talk about being stubborn.

Liking operators equals operators not being operators. And you fail to realize that operators are just here as an attempt to keep players in check as something that meant to be squishy no matter how often they say otherwise they do not feel like "void demons" and useless in comparison to warframes to gate some content behind them. If they will improve operators you will get warframes 2.0. That is not what those updates aimed for. And that's why many people hate them, because no  matter how many times you will say what you think they will be DE will NOT do it. They're too mundane and they ruin everything. Operators should be like warframes to being likeable it's not a rocket science.

I don't refuse to understand it, there have been points brought up in this thread that I agree and understand with such as how void dash and all related abilities could just be a warframe ability. Your being stubborn because your refusing to see a world were there can't be both, if thats what you want then make an actual argument for it. If you believe so strongly that they should be separate then think up some way that it could be integrated in a way were operators aren't necessary. If you just act civil and give your thoughts and suggestions in a way that a developer would want to read and take to heart then theres the possibility that it could happen. As is all your doing is saying you don't like it with no alternatives and in which case, whats the point? Its not real feedback, its shouting at people who do like the system and do believe it should be the way it is or that it should be even better. You're asking for months of work on animations, design, coding and everything else be thrown in the trash with no recompense, just gone, F*** it all. Do you really believe that is something that will ever happen?

Its called compromising.

Edited October 17, 2017 by DrProfSirCarmen

[-Temp0-]

3 minutes ago, SubsituteGamer said:

your not really forced to use the operator, killing eidolons is just to get better operator gear which you will not need if you use it for energy regen or revives its really more of a way to get people who like operators more chances to actually use them for something better than pushing high lvl infested off of akkad and if your a competitionist every game has something you have to do that you don't like.(to be fair they probably would have fixed anything that made fighting eidolons easier)

Killing Eidolons is the only thing left to do for many players. Boss itself is actually amazing. I killed a coupel just because the process was interesting - when you could use at least 2 SD that is.

And while most Quills rewards are trash, there's brillinat shards. As useless as focus is that thing is useful.

So no. You don't "don't have to". Not unless you can buy all those things.

Quote

Your being stubborn because your refusing to see a world were there can't be both

Now there's just ooperators.

Nothing in here for players that don't enjoy them. No rewards, no focus, no Eidolon fights. Nothing.

Quote

If you just act civil and give your thoughts and suggestions in a way that a developer would want to read and take to heart then theres the possibility that it could happen.

I'e been here for 3 years or so. Seen the **** DE does yeah no your naivity is just amusing. De does what DE wants and often behind your back like it was with so many stealth nerfs. They know how many people feel about operators and now focus. Even if they will do something about either it will be year(s) at best. And all this time you will have to endure operators if you want to even play the new content at all.

The most simple thing that could be done is allowing you to buy everything from quills and buy brilliant shards - possibly, but mainly at least the gear. Would it freaking kill them? It's free plat for them like holy cow. But they don't care. Tehy don't even care about potential money. They just want to make us suffer lmao.

The new focus is just a joke - in terms of how much focus it takes to level stuff. Will they change it or make brilliant shards buyable if I ask nicely? Yeah lmao fat chance. I pointed it out ages ago and the only response was from the players saying that it's the devs build and reqs will be lower. Ha ha ha. Jokes on you.

Edited October 17, 2017 by -Temp0-

[SubsituteGamer]

Just now, -Temp0- said:

 

And while most Quills rewards are trash, there's brillinat shards. As useless as focus is that thing is useful.

So no. You don't "don't have to". Not unless you can buy all those things.

see i haven't gotten around to killing an eidolon yet so i have no idea what that's even used for hell i barely know it exist.

[Vortiene]

7 hours ago, Drago55577 said:

So is anyone who supports operators actually going to speak up on why operators or good, or just "You don't speak for everyone"? It's very clear why people don't want to play as operators. We don't want to be forced into a sub-par character to do things in ways that are worse than we can do normally. The only reason for such being "You have to lmao". Give me a good reason as to why I would ever want to put away my Tigris, Opticor or Hema, to instead fight enemies with a child who has no mobility, a gun that does no damage, and has less health?

Why? Why you reasonably want to do this? 

This is my entire problem with operators. They're bad. They're worse than a Warframe in literally every single way, the only reason you ever need to use them is because you're forced to use them. If they were interesting to play, or had fun and engaging gameplay, then sure, I wouldn't have a problem. But they're not. There's no incentives to use them, it's basically putting away your Tigris Prime to use an unmodded Mk.1 Braton. 

I play this game for the grind, and to be rewarded with better items, so in turn I can take on even harder enemies. That's not what operators do. You're rewarded with a trash-baby who can't do anything. I have enough problems with the game being braindead and easy. Nothing is solved by making it braindead and tedious. The Teralyst is easy to kill with the default weapons, it just takes so god damned long. 

Operator's are actually more mobile than warframes, but in bursts. They're pretty good at what they can do and bring a lot of utility to the table if you know how to actually use them. They're not warframes

[SordidDreams]

5 minutes ago, SubsituteGamer said:

your not really forced to use the operator, killing eidolons is just to get better operator gear which you will not need if you use it for energy regen or revives its really more of a way to get people who like operators more chances to actually use them for something better than pushing high lvl infested off of akkad and if your a competitionist every game has something you have to do that you don't like.(to be fair they probably would have fixed anything that made fighting eidolons easier)

So basically there's no harm in operator-centric updates and content? Is that your point? Because that's not true. The update took a massive amount of time, money, and effort to develop, all of which could have instead been spent creating content and systems that everyone would enjoy, not just a tiny minority that doesn't mind the operators. Even if it didn't affect the rest of the game at all (which it does due to the Focus changes), it would still be a massive waste of resources that could have been used in a much better way. The game isn't (that much) worse than it used to be, but it absolutely is massively worse than it could have been. That's the harm.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So basically there's no harm in operator-centric updates and content? Is that your point? Because that's not true. The update took a massive amount of time, money, and effort to develop, all of which could have instead been spent creating content and systems that everyone would enjoy, not just a tiny minority that doesn't mind the operators. Even if it didn't affect the rest of the game at all (which it does due to the Focus changes), it would still be a massive waste of resources that could have been used in a much better way. The game isn't (that much) worse than it used to be, but it absolutely is massively worse than it could have been. That's the harm.

Amen. A ton of opportunity cost there. 

[-Temp0-]

16 minutes ago, SubsituteGamer said:

see i haven't gotten around to killing an eidolon yet so i have no idea what that's even used for hell i barely know it exist.

It allows you to unbind certain ways and make them universal. No longer bound to one school. Use zenurik abilities while having Vazarin "equiped" if you don't follow. Or make a lens that is better than greater lens.

So when people say "you don't have to kill Eidolons" I just can't help but laughing. Especially aside from the fact that the boss itself is kinda fun if you revert teh sd nerf and make them affect it to 50%.

Oh and btw things aren't as simple with way bound stuff just shows yuou how stupid the whole thing is 

I guess at least I found that topic and it makes me no longer want to bother with focus at all. Good thing I guess.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by -Temp0-

[DrProfSirCarmen]

13 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Killing Eidolons is the only thing left to do for many players. Boss itself is actually amazing. I killed a coupel just because the process was interesting - when you could use at least 2 SD that is.

And while most Quills rewards are trash, there's brillinat shards. As useless as focus is that thing is useful.

So no. You don't "don't have to". Not unless you can buy all those things.

Now there's just ooperators.

Nothing in here for players that don't enjoy them. No rewards, no focus, no Eidolon fights. Nothing.

I'e been here for 3 years or so. Seen the **** DE does yeah no your naivity is just amusing. De does what DE wants and often behind your back like it was with so many stealth nerfs. They know how many people feel about operators and now focus. Even if they will do something about either it will be year(s) at best. And all this time you will have to endure operators if you want to even play the new content at all.

The most simple thing that could be done is allowing you to buy everything from quills and buy brilliant shards - possibly, but mainly at least the gear. Would it freaking kill them? It's free plat for them like holy cow. But they don't care. Tehy don't even care about potential money. They just want to make us suffer lmao.

The new focus is just a joke - in terms of how much focus it takes to level stuff. Will they change it or make brilliant shards buyable if I ask nicely? Yeah lmao fat chance. I pointed it out ages ago and the only response was from the players saying that it's the devs build and reqs will be lower. Ha ha ha. Jokes on you.

My points are flying sky high and I'm done, wallow in your self delusion and hate, it'll get you nowhere and no one will take you seriously except others of your ilk. You don't have to treat this as with you or against you but its clearly all you seem to be doing.

[Sajochi]

12 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So basically there's no harm in operator-centric updates and content? Is that your point? Because that's not true. The update took a massive amount of time, money, and effort to develop, all of which could have instead been spent creating content and systems that everyone would enjoy, not just a tiny minority that doesn't mind the operators. Even if it didn't affect the rest of the game at all (which it does due to the Focus changes), it would still be a massive waste of resources that could have been used in a much better way. The game isn't (that much) worse than it used to be, but it absolutely is massively worse than it could have been. That's the harm.

 What I bolded. Let's get it straight, you may think a tiny minority doesn't mind operators. That is far from actuality. Stop lumping the ones that don't agree with you in your opinions. The forum users here are a very tiny fraction of the community, which makes you an even smaller part. 

[Sintag]

16 hours ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

so don't go all Duke Amiel Du H'ardcore on me.

Did...

was this a Jimquisition joke?

 

On a more serious note, I kind of enjoy being the Operator, in that I feel like it's now a little less niche.  It has it's uses now; A sneaky bugger that thrives off waiting for the perfect moment and then suddenly appearing to ruin days via either hard displacement (Dash and Blast) or damage (Void Beam) while being much harder than normal to track (Void Mode.).  Basically, they're starting to make Op-Only runs less of a challenge.  Still only a purel 'for fun' thing, but less of a major pain and more viable in a fight.

 

Also, yadda yadda yadda, you don't have to use it if you don't want to, yadda yadda yadda.  Heck, DE made Op optional this go around and didn't do Kuva Siphons: Part 2 where Op was clunky, very slowly recharged a very limited energy pool for all of their powers, and only had 100 HP again.  Now they're a bit faster on their feet, recharge faster and can use more of their powers, and can take a funny look or stray bullet in a firefight.  I'd say that's a decent step in the right direction if dual Warframe/Operator gameplay is going to become the norm.

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

 What I bolded. Let's get it straight, you may think a tiny minority doesn't mind operators. That is far from actuality. Stop lumping the ones that don't agree with you in your opinions. The forum users here are a very tiny fraction of the community, which makes you an even smaller part. 

Regardless of where I look, here, the subreddit, the in-game chat, I see the same thing everywhere. People hating operators. I get that you don't like what you're hearing, but that doesn't make it okay to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la". You can either accept reality for what it is or continue pretending. Only one of those paths leads forward, the other is just a dead end into disappointment, frustration, and resentment.

[OrochiFuror]

Operator's could be fun, they are a hell of a long way from it, but they could be. 

First off, make them optional, like all void damage they do is "true" damage. Like most moba games, damage that ignores all armor types. Then make the things they are supposed to be good against have void armor that is strong to all other forms of damage. No immunities, just incentives, like how you should use magnetic against corpus, you don't have to, but it can help a lot.

Most important, make them move faster and smoother. Make operator's more like mass effect biotic power users. Give them easier dashes, floating, more speed and make them feel more like a psionic powerhouse with void powers, not weapons. Also have a void shield, absorbs damage and drains your void energy. 

Give them the power to use the abilities of your current warframe, costing void energy. 

If you make it optional, and have the focus system for different builds, we could have child super psionic/void solders that fit in with the current style of game. Overall they need to be faster, at everything, have their own (super) void powers that are used the way warframe weapons are now and ways to make different playstyles with them such as using their current warframe's powers or similar. I think any weapons they get should instead just be things that enhance and modify their abilities.

Operator's could be fun, but so far they are on the wrong path. Warframe is all about options, tons of weapons, dozens of frames, loads of playstyles, why suddenly start forcing a new playstyle instead of finding ways for it to enhance your current playstyle, or at least be a new style that fits into the games fast paced feel.

[Sajochi]

16 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Regardless of where I look, here, the subreddit, the in-game chat, I see the same thing everywhere. People hating operators. I get that you don't like what you're hearing, but that doesn't make it okay to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la". You can either accept reality for what it is or continue pretending. Only one of those paths leads forward, the other is just a dead end into disappointment, frustration, and resentment.

 There is no pretending. I feel none of that, and most likely will not. I see the same players posting the same things over again here and on Reddit. You assumed that these players make up the whole community, which they don't. But I'm not going to waste anymore brain power one you. Keep trying to force your opinion on everyone and bashing those that don't agree. I got a game to play, and I will use operators and incorpoate them into my general gameplay. Have a good one bud.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Sajochi

[Sennera]

7 minutes ago, OrochiFuror said:

Operator's could be fun, they are a hell of a long way from it, but they could be. 

First off, make them optional, like all void damage they do is "true" damage. Like most moba games, damage that ignores all armor types. Then make the things they are supposed to be good against have void armor that is strong to all other forms of damage. No immunities, just incentives, like how you should use magnetic against corpus, you don't have to, but it can help a lot.

Most important, make them move faster and smoother. Make operator's more like mass effect biotic power users. Give them easier dashes, floating, more speed and make them feel more like a psionic powerhouse with void powers, not weapons. Also have a void shield, absorbs damage and drains your void energy. 

Give them the power to use the abilities of your current warframe, costing void energy. 

If you make it optional, and have the focus system for different builds, we could have child super psionic/void solders that fit in with the current style of game. Overall they need to be faster, at everything, have their own (super) void powers that are used the way warframe weapons are now and ways to make different playstyles with them such as using their current warframe's powers or similar. I think any weapons they get should instead just be things that enhance and modify their abilities.

Operator's could be fun, but so far they are on the wrong path. Warframe is all about options, tons of weapons, dozens of frames, loads of playstyles, why suddenly start forcing a new playstyle instead of finding ways for it to enhance your current playstyle, or at least be a new style that fits into the games fast paced feel.

Yeah, exactly. DE needs to stop simultaneously making them weak while trying to force them onto us. The only way they're going to appeal against a warframe is if they're as strong as a warframe.

We were told PoE would introduce the warrior Tenno to us, but I've yet to see a Tenno hold their own in a half hour survival. 

[NDarkstar]

20 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I feel a lot of the changes in PoE are ultimately due to DE not understanding some key concepts about Warframe and its players. I'm going to try to explain them:

 

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. Simple as that. If anything, this update should have removed operators from the game, not shoved them down our throats even more. The Eidolon fight mechanics and the changes to Focus are very clearly designed to motivate players to use the operator, and by "motivate" I of course mean "force". Nobody plays operators because they enjoy it, they do it only for the shortest amount of time required. Why do you think the SD meta for the Eidolon fight spread so quickly? Because nobody wants to play operators. The fight is not fun, it's a tedious chore, an obstacle on the path to rewards. Is anybody going to continue playing it once they have all the rewards, just for the enjoyment of it? I seriously doubt it. Same thing with Focus. Need energy? Even die-hard defenders of the new system tell everyone to just press 5, ctrl+space, 5, i.e. spend as little time in operator mode as possible. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody. Wants. To. Play. Operator.

 

WARFRAME IS AN EASY CASUAL GAME FOR CASUALS. This is equally as important as the above, and it directly relates to the changes to Zenurik as well as the mechanics of the Eidolon fight. Previously I could have constant passive energy regen, which was great. I could run around spamming my abilities and slaughtering hordes of enemies with barely any effort. It was fantastic fun. Now I have to perform some convoluted button press combo every thirty seconds to maintain that energy regen. That is bad in and of itself, because it interrupts the flow of the game for no good reason, but it's especially bad in fights. When I'm fighting, I have other things to worry about than whether a little icon in the corner of my screen has disappeared. Killing grineers is fun, watching a little icon is not. Yet that's exactly what I'm now required to do if I want to continue killing, otherwise I find myself short on energy and forced to retreat to refill in safety. The game now requires more 'skill', if you want to call it that, but that's not a good thing. I play Warframe to unwind, not to get stressed out. If I wanted to spend my time on the edge of my seat watching cooldowns like a hawk, I'd play Dota 2.

 

I feel that every single terrible design decision made in PoE boils down to DE's failure to understand the two above points. Thank you for reading.

Addition: WARFRAME NEEDS TUTORIALS FOR EVERYTHING (Yes that, and that, that too, also that one). At no point was fishing explained to us, or mining. We had to figure it out. Not a lot of people are going to do that. You've been nailed over and over and over about your "New Player Experience". Tutorials. Your new Bounty system can easily be used to make short 'bounties' that are tutorials. Fishing for example:

 

<Event Player Purchases Fishing Spear>

[Bounty Trigger] TEXT, Bounty title "For a Lifetime"

Hai-Luk: Hello! Hello? Ahh, surah! So it does work!

Lotus: Why are you on this channel?

Hai-Luk: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Fish are an essential part of Ostron life. Being able to help to feed the poor and elderly in Cetus is sure to improve your reputation.

[New Bounty Stage] TEXT: Equip the spear.

Hai-Luk: While they are things of beauty, fishing spears do you no good unless you carry them with you when you go fishing!

TEXT: Equip the spear by adding it to your gear wheel from the arsenal.

Hai-Luk: Now, surah, you are ready to harvest the bounties of the waters. But you can not do it here, you must leave Cetus to fish.

[New Bounty Stage] TEXT: Leave Cetus and find a lake to fish in.

Hai-Luk: Lucky for you, there is a lake right outside Cetus, find it and we can continue.

<place a waypoint at the closest lake to Cetus>

[New Bounty Stage] TEXT: Catch a Mawfish.

Hai-Luk: The Mawfish is a very common lake fish during the day, see if you can catch one. Take out your spear.

TEXT: Select the spear from your gear wheel.

Hai-Luk: Now, watch the waters carefully, listen for the tell-tale bubbling noises, that's when you know a fish is near.

TEXT: Use (button press) to aim the spear at the water and (button press) to fire it at your target.

Hai-Luk: Look closely, the fish may appear to be in two places at one, you make even see two fish! It's not Daku Liquor, I promise. Aim carefully.

[Bounty Stage Completion]

Hai-Luk: Well done, surah! You can catch many kinds of fish around Cetus, try experimenting! I have baits and spears for the rarest of catches! Also, look for bubbling spots on the waters, toss your bait there, and you're sure to attract attention! Most importantly, be patient, it's called "fishing" not "catching". My apprentice (new NPC name) will have requests of (gender) own in the future!

<Bounty Reward 200 Ostron Reputation>

-New Bounty NPC- 

T1: Catch 10 (common <name>) fish. 5 pepper bait 100 Ostron Repuation.

T2: Catch 10 (uncommon<name>) fish. 5 twilight bait 150 Ostron Reputation.

T3: Catch 5 (rare<name>) fish. 5 special (random) bait 200 Ostron Reputation.

 

Bounty NPC Items:

Fish net syandana. 

Boot decoration.

Long fish net syandana.

Glass fish decoration.

Weapon cosmetic: Fish (sword)

Weapon costmetic: Fish (dagger)

 

Now you see what I mean, hold the player by the hand, show them what they need to do. Do this for everything, even the things you think are so stupidly easy you can't miss them. Seriously. Everything.

Edited October 17, 2017 by NDarkstar

[Foxbat40]

I agree with the OP. The game is called warframe not kido simulator. I would like to grow and enhance my warframe. The focus system should focus on that. Enhancing and growing your warframe, a series of passives and special attacks that you can take with you independent of your warframe is a good role for the focus system.

Having one set of content that invalidates pervious content or that can't be played simultaneous with existing content is destructive. Similar to archwing this added play mode does not enhance the existing content or warframes that players have invested lots of time and money into.

Please do not focus on kido simulator.

Focus your development efforts on WARFRAME!

[Tellakey]

21 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I feel a lot of the changes in PoE are ultimately due to DE not understanding some key concepts about Warframe and its players. I'm going to try to explain them:

 

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. Simple as that. If anything, this update should have removed operators from the game, not shoved them down our throats even more. The Eidolon fight mechanics and the changes to Focus are very clearly designed to motivate players to use the operator, and by "motivate" I of course mean "force". Nobody plays operators because they enjoy it, they do it only for the shortest amount of time required. Why do you think the SD meta for the Eidolon fight spread so quickly? Because nobody wants to play operators. The fight is not fun, it's a tedious chore, an obstacle on the path to rewards. Is anybody going to continue playing it once they have all the rewards, just for the enjoyment of it? I seriously doubt it. Same thing with Focus. Need energy? Even die-hard defenders of the new system tell everyone to just press 5, ctrl+space, 5, i.e. spend as little time in operator mode as possible. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody. Wants. To. Play. Operator.

 

WARFRAME IS AN EASY CASUAL GAME FOR CASUALS. This is equally as important as the above, and it directly relates to the changes to Zenurik as well as the mechanics of the Eidolon fight. Previously I could have constant passive energy regen, which was great. I could run around spamming my abilities and slaughtering hordes of enemies with barely any effort. It was fantastic fun. Now I have to perform some convoluted button press combo every thirty seconds to maintain that energy regen. That is bad in and of itself, because it interrupts the flow of the game for no good reason, but it's especially bad in fights. When I'm fighting, I have other things to worry about than whether a little icon in the corner of my screen has disappeared. Killing grineers is fun, watching a little icon is not. Yet that's exactly what I'm now required to do if I want to continue killing, otherwise I find myself short on energy and forced to retreat to refill in safety. The game now requires more 'skill', if you want to call it that, but that's not a good thing. I play Warframe to unwind, not to get stressed out. If I wanted to spend my time on the edge of my seat watching cooldowns like a hawk, I'd play Dota 2.

 

I feel that every single terrible design decision made in PoE boils down to DE's failure to understand the two above points. Thank you for reading.

I'm sorry but why are you speaking for all of us? I for one am really in favor of operators. I love the idea and dislike the (current) execution. Operators are a pretty neat feature that simply isn't fleshed out enough. Currently using them is fun but not really useful for much, if you count out the passives and what not. Operator mode is fun to use and gives you a different perspective on the world. Whereas before using them you are pretty much an invincible killing machine, while in operator form you are slow, vulnerable, and weak. I enjoy that, but my only gripe is that operators don't do much against normal enemies. That doesn't mean I don't want DE to expand on them. Please stop speaking for all of us and start using "in my opinion..." instead.

[Slypolar]

I know a LOT of people who enjoy the operators, the only issue I have with them as do others who honestly dont mind them is that I wish we could have the option to make them older...

Anyways OP does NOT speak for everyone at all because as I said I know a S#&amp;&#036; ton a people who really like the addition of the operators 

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Enjoy? Or accept as necessary? 

I can dig accepting the need to use the operator for things because, well, that's what you have to do. I have a harder time understanding enjoying Operator play, but to each their own I suppose. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Acos]

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

So...we should put up with slow, clunky, fragile, super squishy, badly written, mostly useless characters for months to...make them...what? Mildly useful for ONE task?

In what universe is this good game design?

Ignoring your obvious opinion tirade there, they are not mildly useful for ONE task, they are quite useful in several tasks but the problem you are having right now is that they require a very large investment to get them going. I could list like, everything they do, but as I mentioned all of this information is readily available in the game and you are very obviously dead set on not liking them and unwilling to read anything I would type anyway so I'm not really going to bother with it. Don't get me wrong, you're fun, I'm just feeling lazy today. 

Your other big issue just seems to be a semantic one "Why can't Warframes just do everything operators can do?" Button bloat is the only mechanical reason I can come up with on the spot: Having the Operator as another mode essentially means that all the buttons we have can be used again, where as having the Warframe do everything itself means that we quickly run out of button economy trying to fit in all these new things. 

The counter statement to your "argument" would simply be something along the lines of "Well, why can't the operator just do everything the Warframe can do?" Hell, why can't I just play as a Kubrow who manifests swords and shoots a gun with its mouth? There's no clear definitive counter argument beyond "because we don't." I can't help you with just simply not liking the Operator because you like Warframes better, but you need to realize that's an entirely subjective opinion, not a weighty argument for us to toil over. 

So, we've established that Operators are useful, people do like them and want them to have a more prominent role in the game, and "I don't like Operators aesthetically" is not an argument. Any other points you need addressed? 

[Sennera]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Enjoy? Or accept as necessary? 

I can dig accepting the need to use the operator for things because, well, that's what you have to do. I have a harder time understanding enjoying Operator play, but to each their own I suppose. 

Imagine an operator you could gear up and treat like a second warframe you can switch to mid-mission.

You'd be able to set their loadout to compliment your warframe as you see fit. Your defensive build Frost could set up the globe while your murder build operator could slaughter waves of enemies. 

Of course I'd encourage things to be optional if people don't want that, but I believe a warframe/operator relationship like the above is the only way to make operators fit in the game, and actually be the warrior we were told they would be. 

Of course the above example is just one. The operators need more powerful defense and support abilities to compete with warframes, too.

[Awazx]

50 minutes ago, Sennera said:

The operators need more powerful defense and support abilities to compete with warframes, too.

NO.

  The operator does not need to have combat capabilities. Precisely, because it has NO combat capabilities, the operator uses a Warframe. Repeat with me:

OPERATOR = Technician in charge of handling and making certain devices work.

[macleato]

I like the concept of operators ... as a story backdrop.

That said, I think that some passives of the focus schools, need to be, well, more passive. A few Examples:

Unairu, damage reflection and armor buff. Great. One transference, done.

Madurai, physical and elemental damage buffs. Great. One transference, done.

Zenurik, meh. It s not really a passive, if I have to rince and repeat the same thing to keep my buff active. Make it a passive energy regen, like it used to be.

Other than that, operators have little appeal to me, besides using them as a means to buff up and therefore grant me a greater variety of frames to use in an equal manner.

[Neightrix]

You're not "forced" to use the Operators in combat, unless you count kuva farming or killing eidolons, which only really helps you get better at killing eidolons. Transferrence seems like a forced concept and function to me as well, and they've added more in depth to operators, adding to the farm because it keeps the game alive, but I don't think it's that bad.

The biggest issue with focus now is the insane requirements for leveling up the different trees, and that there's no guide to finding and getting access to the Quills. Zenurik is better overall, as is everything else. Having a dash that gives 5 energy per second not just to yourself but to teammates also makes it better, as is the extra energy from orbs - AND you don't have to wait 2-3 minutes from a mission start to use it. I don't consider it a change for the sake of making the game less casual. It's a functional change and they managed to make it better. I was HIGHLY skeptical of whether DE could rebalance zenurik properly, and I can easily say I'm very happy and satisfied with how it is now - credit where it's due.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Neightrix

[Pr0panfloete]

Now lets talk about the REAL issue here no one seemed to realize or talk about yet, we're at a turning point in the game.

So far operator mode was and still is "somewhat" optional, but with this update it's pretty clear what kind of direction DE is trying to go.

in PoE all the operator exclusive content you can only do by using said operator, like Eidolons only serves to upgrade the operator even further.

If you don't want to play the operator you don't really have to, since nothing that benefits the overall Warframe expirience is tied to it, it's like a new game in an already existing game.

But I would bet my balls on it that this is merely the beginning of a dark dreadful road where in the future the ability to aquire entire Warframes / mods / augments / weapons etc. is only possible by actively using the operator mode, therefore FORCING EVERYONE that wants to have access to that content to use it.

It already kind of started with the whole Riven and Kuva thing, you want to use Rivens? An endgame item that can turn your already powerful weapons into portable nukes? Well, sucks to be you! Because you HAVE to use the operator to farm the Kuva for it, if not your Riven will be severely underpowered or downright useless, unless you get uber lucky with the first unrolled stats.

 

Next step? You HAVE to use operator to farm parts for Warframe XYZ or weapon ABC....oh! And of course enemies that CANNOT be killed with regular weapons and/or Warframe abilities will start to show up in EVERY kind of mission on the regular starmap / daily. The latter eventually not happening because newbies without the second dream quest would have no option of defeating those enemies at all without doing the quest first but hey....I'm pretty sure DE will find a way to take care of even that.