I'm done with fishing and PoE

[BornWithTeeth]

7 minutes ago, RacerDelux said:

Exactly. If you don't like a system, make a thread, state the problem, offer a solution, or seek other player's input. This thread would be so much more productive if it did that. Instead 90% of this is people agreeing with the OP or also complaining about fishing. If you want it to change, give GOOD feedback, don't just complain and state you are quitting.

People have given extremely solid feedback.

 

- One-use only bait blueprints are forcing people to grind on multiple levels just to get access to fish. Making bait blueprints re-usable would instantly make things more palatable.

- Fish appearances are extremely dependent on RNG, and the game basically does nothing to teach you about how it works. It just lets you buy a fishing spear and says "Go have fun, champ." Making it so that fish appearances and movement are more reliable would help.

- On a more fundamental level, people are also questioning why it is the case that fishing is several times more critical to absolutely every single aspect of the update than everything else in it. Fishing is more important by far than the Eidolons are. You could remove Bounties from the update altogether with far greater ease and less of a hole left behind than if you removed fishing. It is a bit bloody weird, is what we're getting at.

[RacerDelux]

9 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

- One-use only bait blueprints are forcing people to grind on multiple levels just to get access to fish. Making bait blueprints re-usable would instantly make things more palatable.

- Fish appearances are extremely dependent on RNG, and the game basically does nothing to teach you about how it works. It just lets you buy a fishing spear and says "Go have fun, champ." Making it so that fish appearances and movement are more reliable would help.

- On a more fundamental level, people are also questioning why it is the case that fishing is several times more critical to absolutely every single aspect of the update than everything else in it. Fishing is more important by far than the Eidolons are. You could remove Bounties from the update altogether with far greater ease and less of a hole left behind than if you removed fishing. It is a bit bloody weird, is what we're getting at.

This is GOOD feedback. You could replace the first post with just this, and it would be job done. Hopefully DE will make some changes here in the next week.

[ZenGarage]

I've come down on some super negative/hateful posters in this forum but this OP has nailed it as his negative feedback is super constructive, and after reading it, despite enjoying the fishing element of PoE, I totally agree with points made (also, he obviously didn't just spend 2 minutes on it and then continue to spend even more time whining on the forums, he's well researched). 

Those having a go at him for scaring away new players should really read some of the more negative hateful stuff elsewhere on this forum (it's everywhere). I assume you guys haven't had a good read around at all because if you did, you surely would have been quicker to voice your concerns about negative posts in those threads over this one. 

[kTwn2]

I still say over all I like the PoE content, other than the obscene grind requirements...  I'm hoping we're all looking at Syndicates 1.0 all over and in a few weeks to a month's time they will do like syndicates did and switch it up so that you don't have to spent all day trying to get one thing done.  while also making it more user friendly. 

Before the hotfixes yesterday I really liked fishing, just wished it was more rewarding, and not the only option for getting good rep gains.  This does seem to be the case now as just doing incursions looks to be pretty solid rep gains.  After the hotfix yesterday I'm less of a fan of fishing because of the whole each spear has to be equipped because each spear is needed for its "Tier" of fish...  just make is a gate t1 can't get t2 or t3 fish, t2 can catch t2 or t1, and the t3 spear can get everything so I don't have to have 3 slots taken up by spears. 

For that matter why not just add a key binding for "equip highest teir cutter" and "equip highest teir spear" so that the wheel doesn't even freaking need those taking up slots.  Don't know about everyone else but I know before PoE my wheel was completely full, and I still had to swap things in and out depending on what I was doing, and rarely had space for spectors.

The grind I REALLY want to see changed/bolstered is the Quill.  Unless I'm missing something the only way to gain faction with them is to hunt Disembodied heads, or get a group together for Eidolon Operator Suicide rush.  The heads just don't give enough rep to really get up there... I mean you need what 240,000 rep to make it to the top tier with any faction(before you count in the rep needed to buy stuff to make the tribute items)  Even if we assume you get a 1:1 drop rate on faction items from the heads you'll need 2400 kills on those things.  Outside of an Eidolon kill run I think the most I've seen in a single night was 12-20 of them which yielded about 5 cores...  at 5 cores per night and 9.6 night cycles per REAL day that's 50 real days of catching every night cycle and getting 5 cores each night.  These numbers are much worse if you factor in people actual play times.  Using Steam Statistics the average "peak" is about 4-5 hours long this means about 2-3 night cycles.  And just for giggles lets say I suck at finding those Heads and someone that's good can pull 15 cores a night.  That would still be 50-80 real days of play just to get the heads needed for getting the 240k rep.(5 hours a day play, 15 heads per night cycle, 2-3 night cycles per gaming session)  This can be sped up quite a lot by getting just a few Eidolon kills in, but some people just can't be bothered with the "hard" game.

All-in-all I think PoE will be a great addition to the game, once all the bugs are worked out, and they do a "don't completely monopolize game time" pass.  Right now it has far to many bugs, and takes up almost all my gaming time per day just to get one rep to my daily limit, and the other one 20%-25% to my daily cap...  And I stream 8-12 hours a day and still play Warframe for a few hours before stream each day.  so I'm running 10+ hour days on the game most days...

[low1991]

In regards to fish. I'm ok if fish spawn as per normal like those plain pest without the need for fishing spear equipped. And able to go sharkwing or kill these fish for their drops (lower amount then fillet fish function in cetus). A fixed fish breeding habitat (like shallow waters for Hut-Hut (s)), radiated water for more mutant fish etc.

 

[Shailfire]

The biggest problem with fishing, other than the bugs, is simply the way they designed bait. With absurd costs, abysmally low success rate, and not even being a reusable blueprint, it's an unholy pit in which you dump your standing

[Vesperos]

The main Problem i encountered during fishing is without a bait you commonly have 3-4 fish swimming around and then it takes (feeled) ages for an respawn + sometimes that troops pass by from miles away and spot you what can trigger an spawning round so that you can´t fish at all or need to change the spot in hope that some fishes are there.

It would be a bit nicer if it would give other indicators then the "you need to equip the spear to hear the fishes bubble around" or preset spots where 5-10 fishes spawn every 5-15 mins under guranteed conditions. Warframe is a farming simulator where you basicly can go directly to the Planet/mission that gives you the loot by simply running/killing/break stuff for the chance of getting it.

PoE is more like an big "fast travel through if you hunt for mining fishing materials and ignore everything else during the process". Maybe even add some minor "grinner fishing" ports where some fishes are catched already and we simply can loot them from there that might be easier but yield a bit lesser fishes (1-5) then fishing itself (5-10) every 15 mins when the spot is further then (let´s say 500) away what means an constand location switch to not just "afk farm the stuff".

[Mattoropael]

14 minutes ago, Shailfire said:

The biggest problem with fishing, other than the bugs, is simply the way they designed bait. With absurd costs, abysmally low success rate, and not even being a reusable blueprint, it's an unholy pit in which you dump your standing

Let's not forget the extremely complicated and grindy "You must grind fish A, B, C to make bait 1 for fish D, grind fish E, F, G to make bait 2 for fish H, then grind fish D and H with bait 1 and 2 to make bait 3 for fish I" mess.

Using naturally-spawning fish unique parts as a perquisite is alright, but once it requires bait-only fish to make bait for another bait-only fish it becomes very silly.

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Mattoropael

[Shailfire]

1 minute ago, Mattoropael said:

Let's not forget the extremely complicated and grindy "You must grind fish A, B, C to make bait 1 for fish D, grind fish E, F, G to make bait 2 for fish H, then grind fish D and H with bait 1 and 2 to make bait 3 for fish I" mess.

Baits effect needs to be buffed. Alot. Like, I shouldn't use murkray bait and be seeings tons of goopala, secondly, the cost to make them needs to be lowered OR the blueprint made reuseable. Atm any fish locked behind SPECIFIC bait is cancer to obtain

[Mudfam]

1 hour ago, RacerDelux said:

Exactly. If you don't like a system, make a thread, state the problem, offer a solution, or seek other player's input. This thread would be so much more productive if it did that. Instead 90% of this is people agreeing with the OP or also complaining about fishing. If you want it to change, give GOOD feedback, don't just complain and state you are quitting.

Utter nonsense. If the OP is going to get any attention then people who share that opinion need to show their support and post so that the thread doesn't get buried and forgotten. The white knights that don't even have a clue what they're talking about and are just blindly defending the game must be responded to, their idiotic ramblings shot down immediately so they they don't perpetuate their falsehoods which come from their reactionary attitude rather than having anything to do with reality.

This is feedback. It's GOOD feedback because it's accurate and this is how people feel about the game. My clan discord (it's big) has become nothing but people raging about this and losing any desire to play warframe, because that's how they feel, they're not doing it here on the forums for sensationalism. We don't need to propose solutions in every single post, we need to highlight the problems and their magnitude, DE can then fix them by whatever means they consider appropriate.

[Anthraxicus]

5 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

Perhaps just stop fishing until they change it/fix it, as they probably will. I hear there are many things you can do apart from fishing.

Like waiting for the door to open, wait at the door for people fishing while you want to extract, go to the field and back to cetus all the time cuz the bounties keeps getting bugged and unable to be completed and so on. Yes, this update is bad. And you should feel bad for trying to make it look nice.

[NDarkstar]

6 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

Eh... took me an hour to get fish for archwing launcher and for bait.

Until you realize you need to take those Mawfish you caught and make bait to get more Mortis Lungfish. Then take the Lungfish and cut them up instead of turn them in for rep to make bait for Murkray, then cut THOSE up to get the parts to make your tier 1 amp parts built. It only gets worse from there.

[Duduminador]

I've been enjoying the living F*** out of this update. From the art direction to the gameplay, there's just so much to do. Plus I'm actually really found of the fishin feature.

but I gotta vent a little...

I spent 20 Murkray baits and 20 glowing tints, got 1 Murkray out of it, that's 5k Ostron stand spent on baits and 1000 stand from 2 stacks of glowing tint. Not counting the time NOT spent Getting stand (instead wasting it) by grinding for Murkray baits and fishing them, and the stand NOT GAINED for gutting fishes instead of trading for stand, I also need to do all of this one more time to get another murkray and gutt it.

I don't even have the will power to try and translate into more reasonable words how much of a step back this was to me.

DE pls, if you lower the costs a bit, please consider reward the people who farmed a lot with some retroactive bonus to what we already grinded, cuz I'm already burning out from the grind

Edited October 17, 2017 by Duduminador

[MirageKnight]

With the sheer amount of things outright requiring fish parts in PoE, this update should have been called Fish of Eidelon...

[DiabolusUrsus]

7 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Free Roam SHOULD have been the focus. Just...go play. Don't fret over standing. Don't worry about progression. We will set everything up so you just go play and accumulate all you need on the process.

This is why Skyrim does so we'll despite being, mechanically, a crap game: it lets you just go play. 

DE needs to understand that Open World's are different. You can't let the business model dictate their structure. People want to be immersed in the world space. To BE there. They don't want to micromanage their time to optimize grinding while cavorting about in an open world.

This needs to change.

*Inserts obligatory mic drop*

No, seriously. I may have 2k+ hours in Warframe, or 706 in ARK, but the 1333 and counting hours I've spent in Skyrim (and eventually the special edition when SKSE64 catches up for modding) will always weight more heavily in terms of value for me because I objectively enjoyed each of those hours more thoroughly than the quantitatively larger time I've spent in Warframe (I bring up ARK because some people have like 4k+ hours in a game that is a lot younger than WF).

The point is that while you may spend a lot of time playing a game, you should look at whether that's because it requires that time of you to progress or if it's because you simply like playing it that much.

[Madotsuki]

*reads patch notes*

...Huh, they actually did what I suggested. We'll still have to see whether the bait-induced fish spawn chances are acceptable now, but it's a good start.

[MirageKnight]

I think I'm completely done with PoE and its new features...I'm sticking with regular maps.

DE, I'm giving this update a 2.5 out of 5. Cool ideas but really sloppy and poorly thought-out execution for the most part.

• The map itself is really nice. Lots of nooks and crannies to explore. Random missions are a nice touch. But the map is so massive that alternate means of traversing the distance in a timely manner are almost a necessity...the problem is Skywing has its own massive issues (see below). Also, I love the plants and such but the map is so...brown. And as a certain Youtuber said, "Those aren't plains, those are the ****ing hills". It's funny and also true. Yes, this update should have been called Hills of Eidola...or more appropriately Fish of Eidelon because of...
• Fishing. Why is almost everything locked behind Fishing? Just why? High tech gear like Warframe parts, Operator Amp gear, and Archwing deployment systems should not require fish components at all and said components need to be removal and replaced with more universal resources. Fishing is something that should completely optional, not a necessity. And fishing itself is tedious and unintuitive. I shouldn't have to have a different spear in each gear slot and there should be a better way to let the player know that a regular spear won't work on a fish that's well protected - like say having the spear bounce off the fish.
• The idea of a marketplace is a nice idea but poorly implemented. I want to use normal credits to buy things like lures, spears, BP's for Zaw parts, like normal people do in a real marketplace. All Standing should do is be able to unlock stuff you can purchase. If you have enough standing, you can buy stuff. Make it so that you spend Standing to unlock levels of purchase, but allow us to buy stuff with normal credits, NOT Standing.
• Skywing. DE, you really dropped the ball on this one. Skywing is a bad joke: Not only is it locked behind consumable gear that for some arbitrary reason needs fish oil, but you can get shot out of the sky very easily. Heck, a kid with a sling-shot or a blow-dart could bring you down. Skywing should not be consumable gear at all and you should not be shot out of the sky so damn easily.
• The Quest. That was really nice and heartfelt, but a bit too easy. 
• Gara. I don't mind it being a quest-frame, but once again...parts are random drops from a mission type - in this case Bounties. It would have made more sense for the parts to be random drops hidden in the caves, which would encourage exploration.

DE, do you want us to use the things you added to the game? Then make them reasonably accessibly and fun / engaging to use. Don't shove systems down our collective throats. If something is fun and accessible enough, we'll use it; trust me on this.

 

[Illithar]

55 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

*Inserts obligatory mic drop*

No, seriously. I may have 2k+ hours in Warframe, or 706 in ARK, but the 1333 and counting hours I've spent in Skyrim (and eventually the special edition when SKSE64 catches up for modding) will always weight more heavily in terms of value for me because I objectively enjoyed each of those hours more thoroughly than the quantitatively larger time I've spent in Warframe (I bring up ARK because some people have like 4k+ hours in a game that is a lot younger than WF).

The point is that while you may spend a lot of time playing a game, you should look at whether that's because it requires that time of you to progress or if it's because you simply like playing it that much.

See I'm the exact opposite. I only have about 70 or 80 hours in Skyrim, once I had gotten to a certain point I just... didn't care anymore. I have almost 400 hours in Warframe so far, 80 of those are prior to a 'break' I took. The Frost Prime with Prime deal brought me back and I brought a few friends as well. Is it a grind? yes. But I enjoy, I like the combat. I like tinkering with builds and trying new weapon/warframe combo's.

It's different strokes for different folks. Not every game is going to be for everyone. And not always for the same reasons.

As to the topic at hand: I... actually kind of like the fishing, but I can certainly understand peoples frustrations with it. I'm not 100% happy with it but it is a nice thing to do. I'm torn on how fishing should be, I want it to add something to the game other than just a random activity for some mountable trophies no one else will ever see. But, as a lot of people have complained about, I don't want it to be mandatory either. There needs to be a middle ground. I like that they bait BP's are reusable now, that's a good step.

There needs to be more variety in what we are doing in the Plains. I think adding more random, BIG, bosses would be nice. Some big Grineer ship or tank you have to take down. Or an even bigger Eidolon. 

 

[Yargami]

9 hours ago, Mudfam said:

I think most people who have stated that they like or don't mind fishing simply haven't faced the reality of rare fish yet. When you're sitting there and getting common fish and think you're making progress with each catch it can seem like a fun and rewarding experience. However, the common fish are worthless, useless and no one will ever trade for them. The problem is when you sit there staring at the screen for hours on end without ever getting the thing you're after, only losing the huge amount of standing you've been investing in bait. It is not profitable to fish, not even a tiny bit, quite the opposite.

   I have actually caught rare fish. And I've grinded the standing just to get bait (only to have half of it spawn Goopolla) which I am going to have to do again due to me crafting all my baits about half an hour before they made them reusable. I never said it was profitable, I said I didn't mind doing it, although I can definitely understand not wanting to spend the time to do it. And as far as the fishing being required, the rare fishing is only required if you want to get into the higher tier standing and crafting. Looking at the rarity of the fish and the price tag on the bait I'm guessing that DE wanted that to be a longer term goal, but a decent chunk of the player base wants the high tier stuff now.

9 hours ago, Dreamforger said:

To the fish trade. Yes you can.

   I saw nothing in the patch notes or announcements that said this, so I'm guessing that most people, like me, don't yet realize this is a market.

9 hours ago, Dreamforger said:

I think it is the way the whole topic was presented.

The feedback is needed to fine tune the game. But the amount of "I am done here"-topics (which are far from new) are kinda silly.

   This is what worries me. I've seen several console players making posts and asking if PoE is really that bad because they saw some negative rants and got the impression that it is a uniformly terrible update. It isn't. It's overall a great update and from a long-term perspective it opens up Warframe for so much more potential. Yes, there are some issues, but every major update has some major issues on launch (anyone else get stuck halfway through the War Within quest first time?). I'm hoping that this, along with the horrible Twitch Drops campaign, doesn't bring a large amount of damage to Warframe.

[Yargami]

9 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Free Roam SHOULD have been the focus. Just...go play. Don't fret over standing. Don't worry about progression. We will set everything up so you just go play and accumulate all you need on the process.

This is why Skyrim does so we'll despite being, mechanically, a crap game: it lets you just go play. 

DE needs to understand that Open World's are different. You can't let the business model dictate their structure. People want to be immersed in the world space. To BE there. They don't want to micromanage their time to optimize grinding while cavorting about in an open world.

This needs to change.

   See, I do a lot of just wandering around the plains. I think the problem is that most people's mentality in Warframe is that they have to be grinding the next great thing all the time. I've played Skyrim a fair amount on a friend's copy, but never got around to buying it because I don't find it all that interesting. Yes, it's got a good sandbox, but playing the actual game is kind of... bland? I think the real problem is that people always want the newest thing right now. Yes, fishing could use some tweaking, but everything does when it's first implemented. If you look at the plains from a relaxed "go play" standpoint, where you aren't freaking out about not having everything, it's actually a really strong update (aside from the obvious bugfixes that come with all major updates).

edit: Apologies about the double post, half of these responses weren't even here when I started my first post.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Yargami

[MobyTheDuck]

You guys want to see how bad it is?

To catch Glappid, you need bait.
To make the Glappid bait, you need Norg and Cuthol parts.  Kin status and 12500 standing to buy the bp.
To catch Norg and Cuthol, you need bait.
To make Norg bait, you need Sharrac and Karkina. Trusted status and 7500 standing to get the bp.
To make Cuthol bait, you need Murkray. Surah status and 10000 standing to get the bp.
Murkray is ultra rare without its bait and Sharrac and Karkina are very very rare night ocean fish, so to see them more than once every 1000 fish, you need Twilight bait.
Twilight bait needs Offworlder and 2000 standing to buy.

And how bait works isnt explained ANYWHERE, people needed to spend hundreds of baits to find out.

ALL fish parts are required to craft amp parts and zaw parts. So much for 'you dont need to fish'.

Brozime, after spending 3 hours looking for one fish, put it best: "Why Amps needs 7 Norg brains? F- you, that why."

Edited October 18, 2017 by MobyTheDuck

[Mudfam]

20 minutes ago, Yargami said:

   I have actually caught rare fish. And I've grinded the standing just to get bait (only to have half of it spawn Goopolla) which I am going to have to do again due to me crafting all my baits about half an hour before they made them reusable. I never said it was profitable, I said I didn't mind doing it, although I can definitely understand not wanting to spend the time to do it. And as far as the fishing being required, the rare fishing is only required if you want to get into the higher tier standing and crafting. Looking at the rarity of the fish and the price tag on the bait I'm guessing that DE wanted that to be a longer term goal, but a decent chunk of the player base wants the high tier stuff now.

No. Are you just making this up? Have you actually tried to build anything? You need rare fish to craft even the entry level items. To get the higher tier stuff you need to fish rare fish to make bait for rare fish to make bait for even rarer fish...

I'm fine with long term grind, I'm even fine with a single focus tree taking 2 months of grinding while hitting the 250k cap every day. I am NOT fine with @(*()$ fishing. I do not want to play bloody fishframe. I do not want to just stare at my screen until my eyes bleed, wondering if the torture will ever end. This is the single most atrociously bad gameplay experience I've ever encountered and I want nothing to do with it, ever.

[DiabolusUrsus]

45 minutes ago, Illithar said:

See I'm the exact opposite. I only have about 70 or 80 hours in Skyrim, once I had gotten to a certain point I just... didn't care anymore. I have almost 400 hours in Warframe so far, 80 of those are prior to a 'break' I took. The Frost Prime with Prime deal brought me back and I brought a few friends as well. Is it a grind? yes. But I enjoy, I like the combat. I like tinkering with builds and trying new weapon/warframe combo's.

It's different strokes for different folks. Not every game is going to be for everyone. And not always for the same reasons.

Well, that isn't to say Skyrim is perfect. It has a lot (and I mean a LOT of flaws), and that isn't to say that Warframe doesn't have its strengths. Visual presentation, smoothness of play, and ease of multiplayer setup are the best parts about it. However, if PoE had Skyrim's degree of freedom and Warframe had the appropriate amounts of polish and expansion applied to its core mechanics (casting, gunplay, melee) I think you would see the difference I'm talking about more clearly.

I'd imagine that the main things that dissuaded you from continuing with Skyrim were probably the puddle-deep combat mechanics and stuttery gameplay interrupted by bugs, glitches, and general game-engine inadequacies. Obviously, if those things are huge problems for you and you don't want to bother with the time required to fix them through mods, Warframe will be preferable.

The only point I'm making is that Warframe's play-time is drastically inflated with progression-stoppers when if DE actually bothered to fix up their fundamentals it could offer a qualitatively better player experience without any sort of damage (if anything, with benefits) to its microtransaction model.

In other words, don't look at this as Skyrim vs. Warfame, look at it as time-consuming because interesting vs. time-consuming because necessity. Of course, if Warframe is one of those games that grabs you because it's interesting and you fully enjoy it, I'm glad for you. Still, the degree of complaints about grind, burnout, and RNG lootboxing that exists in near-perpetuity should tell you something about Warframe's implementation.

[Guest]

@DiabolusUrsus It's Infested-18,5.  The bottom, right most color.

[DiabolusUrsus]

@TheDefenestrater Thanks a bunch!