Even PC Gamer is salty. [PC Gamer Criticism of PoE for new players]

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

DE made Warframe successful on their own and sold it. 

...Nothing wrong with that.

But don't spin yarns about how they are the young small upstart company with a bright idea like they are "The Little Engine That Could" though...That was 4 years ago.

They aren't that anymore... They are "The Little Engine That Already Did and Keeps Doing".

Standing by old excuses for them rings hollow at this point... So let's not.

Fortunately, it's only players making it... DE has chosen to make no excuses and I respect them for that.

 

I have no idea what this means...

Am I speaking above your head? 

Do you need more emojis in order for what I say to make sense? 

 

I had actually forgotten about that whole buyout thing.

Now I'm unfortunately convinced that they did the smart thing and left things running as normal for a while to let everyone calm down and relax, and now they're slowly-but-surely tightening the noose. It certainly forms a plausible explanation for the sudden introduction of content-exclusive resources, heavy-handed Archwing gating, and other more questionable decisions.

Not saying everyone needs to freak out, but if we can call them on it we can either be proven wrong (I hope) or at least discourage this sort of behavior for a bit longer.

[Noseeno]

Back on the original topic, I agree that the Plains of Eidolon is very out of place for new players. When I go into a public instance there, low MRs mean I'm wary about going into operator mode and the occasional, overzealous player who wants to fight the Eidolon. With the amount of lore spilling out in that area and an isolated grind economy I find myself sinking my resources to pursue, I can't imagine why new players would want to spend time there when they could be unlocking the star map. A lot of things just won't make sense if they haven't unlocked the main questline. 

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't show that cutscene where the warframes flew away when night fell that they did in Tennocon as a warning over the dangers of the night cycle (but I guess that wouldn't make sense if new players don't even have archwing yet). The sudden break away the Plains gives is enjoyable for veterans that are looking for something to sink their time/resources. The fishing grind has been an addicting alternative to the usual combativeness for me. For new players, it would just be confusing. Why are we fishing? What's a mote? 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

21 hours ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

Maybe they(and everyone else) should have considered that DE made this to last till the next Landscape and not to be played for the next few weeks. They gave you enough to do so you don't skip out of warframe after completing everything and waiting for the next update.

Stop making sense!  Never let facts and common sense get in the way of an entertaining argument!

[OniDax]

3 hours ago, Echoa said:

I disagree that they ignore, is not always a matter of "They just ignore us" as certain aspects take precedence over others and are far easier and quicker to fix. They've suggested revision of damage mods a few times now just for the community to go absolutely ape over it (muh multishot, etc.) for example. That's one of the big ones that they've suggested revisiting or even been attempting to revisit at times. 

Online game development comes with a balance, you need to produce new content or people get bored, but you need to fix broken content or people get mad and think you don't care. The easily fixable things come first along with new content, the harder to fix become long term projects you chip away at.

We need to be critical of the game for it to improve, and I think people also need to understand the is a line between critical and constructive feedback and "doom&gloom" or straight belligerent feedback. Being critical isn't "salty" , "mad", etc.  Also it needs to be known that all things aren't nor can be fixed immediately. Don't assume you're ignored just because it's not changed in your time frame or how you wanted it. It could be the case sure, but do we need to assume the worst for the sake of just doing so to feed our own rage?

Things are ignored when DE fails to address them. Not fix in a timely manner. Not give an explanation or rationale for a certain decision. I mean they don't address certain things. For example, they addressed the amount of fish oil requirements, but they ignored people not wanting fish oil to be a requirement at all and people who don't want the charge system. I'm not saying that they "ignored" that issue because they didn't immediately remove the requirement and change how the system works. I mean they ignored the issue in that they haven't even acknowledged that people want it changed, and therefore they haven't even explained why the requirement exists and why it's a charge-based system in the first place. That's what I mean by "ignore". When there are a lot of players who voice support for removing the requirement and changing the charge system, and DE doesn't even acknowledge this request, that's them ignoring an issue. That's what I mean by them ignoring issues. And they've done this before in the past as well.

Edited October 19, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I had actually forgotten about that whole buyout thing.

Now I'm unfortunately convinced that they did the smart thing and left things running as normal for a while to let everyone calm down and relax, and now they're slowly-but-surely tightening the noose. It certainly forms a plausible explanation for the sudden introduction of content-exclusive resources, heavy-handed Archwing gating, and other more questionable decisions.

Not saying everyone needs to freak out, but if we can call them on it we can either be proven wrong (I hope) or at least discourage this sort of behavior for a bit longer.

Eh, I don't see any nefarious plots bud...

Warframe has always been grindy...It's probably Kao-Ken levels of grindy this update but big/deep changes like that aren't that unusual in this game.

• OMG LightTraps
•  completely borking
• stamina for 2 hours,
• Frost's snow-globe nerf, 
• Excal's first nerf

Spring to my mind immediately.

PCGamer raised some valid points imo... The last one noted is that the game has improved dramatically and is worth a look— and I agree with that one too.

PoE isn't a bad update imo, it's launched clunky...But it did launch (I got trapped in my Liset for 3 days once...so PoE was an improvement).

It should have been tested more thoroughly and DE had that as an option and discarded it.

...But I don't see plots and loot boxes on the horizon though.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Eh, I don't see any nefarious plots bud...

Warframe has always been grindy...It's probably Kao-Ken levels of grindy this update but big/deep changes like that aren't that unusual in this game.

• OMG LightTraps
•  completely borking
• stamina for 2 hours,
• Frost's snow-globe nerf, 
• Excal's first nerf

Spring to my mind immediately.

PCGamer raised some valid points imo... The last one noted is that the game has improved dramatically and is worth a look— and I agree with that one too.

PoE isn't a bad update imo, it's launched clunky...But it did launch (I got trapped in my Liset for 3 days once...so PoE was an improvement).

It should have been tested more thoroughly and DE had that as an option and discarded it.

...But I don't see plots and loot boxes on the horizon though.

Not saying it hasn't improved, and I don't think the actual content CREATORS are plotting anything, but I can't overlook that this update is a bundle of unprecedented high-pressure grind.

Warframe has always been grindy, sure, but never before have we seen completely isolated and ubiquitous resource requirements. By which I mean most of the new content requires entirely new resources (instead of some combination of old and new) and the new resources bleed into rehashes of existing content (instead of just the new stuff).

I'm not overlooking the sort of game Warframe is, but this update is of a distinctly different flavor than what we've had before. Your listed examples are all gameplay changes, not economic ones. I'd also rather believe that some company already established as scummy is responsible for these changes than believe that DE itself has changed in that regard.

Edited October 19, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[Rhekemi]

I logged into WF a few hours ago in an attempt to tackle the last 3-5 quests I hadn't touched for several months (before I get to PoE). I got sidetracked by Trade chat (we have filters!! And an on-screen timer!!) which distracted me with a possible sale (I'm broke, plat-wise), which lead me to Hieracon and Maroo's (had to ask Region since it was disappeared from Earth) for Endo. 

Still not enough Endo to rank up the prime mod I wanted to sell (almost but no cigar), but the first thing I saw when I logged in was a greeting from DE (and a hearty thank you to the community).

In that greeting, they made it explicitly clear they wanted new players to be able to dive into PoE as soon as possible. 

I agree with everyone who has already noted PoE was meant for vets and newcomers. Saying the article's author was new (and implying the article was, therefore, less valid because he's new) doesn't hold water. 

The article also had flaws, yes, which some have noted. It wasn't perfect. But for adults who can understand and digest constructive criticism (and DE indeed can), the article was a good thing. DE needs this feedback, and I'm glad it captures a number of our concerns--amplifies our voices in a way. I'm positive DE read it due to the magazine's status.

I've enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread from all sides, and I hope DE's reading this and other threads, then deciding how to iron out the problems in PoE. Still not happy I had to start my clan's Archwing Launcher research today, but it's started. 

[KentuckyKid_69]

I'm not a big fan of any type of articles and especially about video games since there will always be some sort of personal opinion somewhere in it. For example, Steven Messner (guy who wrote this article) said: " I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who... has jumped back into Warframe." and then he says "...  but after sinking almost 14 hours into it over the weekend, it feels like a deceptive distraction rather than a rewarding expansion for newbies like me."

 

Yes this was exactly DE’s intention, since they said this content is made for everyone, new players, casuals and vets, but it is especially new content dedicated to Founders, Vets and Prime Access supporter. That would explain the new economy because it is new content for those who finished the star map, quests and have almost everything in this game. You can play PoE after two hours yes, but you don’t have to. If they locked this content behind, let’s say MR10, the forums will be flooded with salt. Even playing this game for 48h you don't know sh** about the game since its complexity and all the stuff you have to learn. I think he has based his opinion of what he saw others say on this or other forums. Learn how this game works, level up your gear, how each ability works, how to mod your stuff and then you can give it a spin. Don’t get me wrong there are things that don’t match if this content is targeted to vets, but they wanted to give everybody a chance to experience this new “open world” content. Either way they would get critic, if they make it just for vets with high level enemy’s and MR lock or if they make it for newbies because it wouldn’t be a challenge at all for casuals and vets.

[AshenOne07]

Can we just enjoy Plains of Eidolon guys? Yes, there's a couple of bugs here and there but what can you expect from a F2P game. PoE may not be perfect but I love it because it offers a new way to play Warframe. I just got bored doing the same missions over and over again on my star chart and hell I got tired grinding prime parts in fissure missions. Well, PoE also task you to grind those standings and all those stuff but the thing is, I'm loving it so far because it's something new to my eye. This is my only opinion though, I don't know about you guys.

And....14hrs of gameplay don't count as a solid review IMO... There's a lot of stuff that you can't do in just 14hrs. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by AshenOne07

[KamiyaMai]

7 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Not saying it hasn't improved, and I don't think the actual content CREATORS are plotting anything, but I can't overlook that this update is a bundle of unprecedented high-pressure grind.

Warframe has always been grindy, sure, but never before have we seen completely isolated and ubiquitous resource requirements. By which I mean most of the new content requires entirely new resources (instead of some combination of old and new) and the new resources bleed into rehashes of existing content (instead of just the new stuff).

I'm not overlooking the sort of game Warframe is, but this update is of a distinctly different flavor than what we've had before. Your listed examples are all gameplay changes, not economic ones. I'd also rather believe that some company already established as scummy is responsible for these changes than believe that DE itself has changed in that regard.

From an Amateur Indie Developer's perspective, the insane grind that was introduced with PoE isn't a bad thing nor do I think it is a mistake by Digital Extremes either. It's common practice for Developers to introduce an absurd grind/insignificant rewards to entirely new systems that are untested on a large scale.(To be fair this usually only occurs in an early access/public beta environment, but since [DE] is innovating we can't blame them for it.) It is most likely that the current grind rates and reward items are the "minimal placeholders" until [DE] have determined an appropriate progression rate.

The reason developers do this is to ensure the content is tried slowly or slower than intended to ensure the content isn't accidentally blitzed through. If the rewards and rates were approximated at too high a value and too short a time then the player base would likely speed run the content too quickly and flood the market, essentially dulling the real experience and damaging the trade market once the rates are slowed down since this would only benefit a few abusive players. Whereas if the rates are put slightly longer and the rewards slightly worse than the norm(or even way worse) they could once tested, tweak and reduce the rate and increase rewards to what is appropriate for the correct player experience.

PoE is a test environment at this stage(in my opinion). [DE] is known for consistent updates and improvements and this will be no different. I'd recommend taking a step back and finishing off other quests or completing some of those Prime Grinds while the values are tweaked and balanced. The new resources will likely be moved to other places over time and become way easier to obtain. Bounty Rewards will increase once they've found the satisfying consistency and even the Focus System which they have been trying and testing for quite some time will likely be improved as well once they are happy with the system.

Whenever you see an unreasonably long grind,it is likely because [DE] themselves are still tweaking and adjusting it until they are happy with it. Warframe is a game full of near endless content. There is no reason to rush into PoE and this is likely a mistake that a lot of new and even returning old players will/are making since PoE isn't Warframe 2.0, it's simply more content. It's an experimental endgame option. If anything, [DE] might have made a mistake by introducing PoE too early to new players. 

Nevertheless that is my two cents.

[BlackCoMerc]

On 10/17/2017 at 11:13 PM, InDueTime-EN- said:

Maybe they(and everyone else) should have considered that DE made this to last till the next Landscape and not to be played for the next few weeks. They gave you enough to do so you don't skip out of warframe after completing everything and waiting for the next update.

No. They didn't.

They gave us four missions and fishing. The number of things to do in PoE is pathetically small.

[BlackCoMerc]

19 hours ago, Xgomme said:

Blablabla, you're so intelligent and proud, I love you. Enough ?

 

Now maybe you can try to understand what I'm defending, the fact that actual Warframe game is like that BECAUSE they made and still make this sort of "public beta test" thing. And it's a really good thing to me

(They never "sold" it, learn your facts)

 

The last part was just a sarcasm because you talk like if you were making economy rules, when you just throw random passive-agressive sentences from your disabled high horse.

 

 

Oh, and "Do you need more emojis in order for what I say to make sense? " > I love fail sentences when people are trolling, delicious.

Being sked to be a beta tester for free is a good thing to you? Way to make excuses for poor design.

Sorry. I value my time.

[DiabolusUrsus]

31 minutes ago, D3giler said:

From an Amateur Indie Developer's perspective, the insane grind that was introduced with PoE isn't a bad thing nor do I think it is a mistake by Digital Extremes either. It's common practice for Developers to introduce an absurd grind/insignificant rewards to entirely new systems that are untested on a large scale.(To be fair this usually only occurs in an early access/public beta environment, but since [DE] is innovating we can't blame them for it.) It is most likely that the current grind rates and reward items are the "minimal placeholders" until [DE] have determined an appropriate progression rate.

The reason developers do this is to ensure the content is tried slowly or slower than intended to ensure the content isn't accidentally blitzed through. If the rewards and rates were approximated at too high a value and too short a time then the player base would likely speed run the content too quickly and flood the market, essentially dulling the real experience and damaging the trade market once the rates are slowed down since this would only benefit a few abusive players. Whereas if the rates are put slightly longer and the rewards slightly worse than the norm(or even way worse) they could once tested, tweak and reduce the rate and increase rewards to what is appropriate for the correct player experience.

PoE is a test environment at this stage(in my opinion). [DE] is known for consistent updates and improvements and this will be no different. I'd recommend taking a step back and finishing off other quests or completing some of those Prime Grinds while the values are tweaked and balanced. The new resources will likely be moved to other places over time and become way easier to obtain. Bounty Rewards will increase once they've found the satisfying consistency and even the Focus System which they have been trying and testing for quite some time will likely be improved as well once they are happy with the system.

Whenever you see an unreasonably long grind,it is likely because [DE] themselves are still tweaking and adjusting it until they are happy with it. Warframe is a game full of near endless content. There is no reason to rush into PoE and this is likely a mistake that a lot of new and even returning old players will/are making since PoE isn't Warframe 2.0, it's simply more content. It's an experimental endgame option. If anything, [DE] might have made a mistake by introducing PoE too early to new players. 

Nevertheless that is my two cents.

I see your point, and if everything was like Focus on a smaller scale where it simply takes a ridiculously long time to accumulate the necessary resources, I would fully agree with you.

But DE isn't a small indie dev, and there's a difference between bottlenecking progress to extend playtime and multiple layers of random chance designed to build frustration and prompt players hitting the skip button with their wallets.

And that's a pretty big flaw with the notion that PoE is nothing but an innocuous time-sink: they specifically let you pay to skip the content in most cases.

That aside, good luck with whatever you're working on.

[wanderere]

The thing I love about POE is you can jump in do some killing missions, some mining or fishing then jump out whenever.

Its not the constant in and out of missions; especially fissure missions, I seriously got burnt out on those and stopped playing for 6 months.

Sure its got some bugs and is grindy and lets be frank way too many new resources. also garas quest was boring and not very interesting at all.

but I am enjoying it a lot, actually like it way more than the war within and that took ages to come out.

hopefully these things can be tuned and I cant for the next installment!

[BlackCoMerc]

10 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Eh, I don't see any nefarious plots bud...

Warframe has always been grindy...It's probably Kao-Ken levels of grindy this update but big/deep changes like that aren't that unusual in this game.

• OMG LightTraps
•  completely borking
• stamina for 2 hours,
• Frost's snow-globe nerf, 
• Excal's first nerf

Spring to my mind immediately.

PCGamer raised some valid points imo... The last one noted is that the game has improved dramatically and is worth a look— and I agree with that one too.

PoE isn't a bad update imo, it's launched clunky...But it did launch (I got trapped in my Liset for 3 days once...so PoE was an improvement).

It should have been tested more thoroughly and DE had that as an option and discarded it.

...But I don't see plots and loot boxes on the horizon though.

Loot boxes ON THE HORIZON?

Prime Access says Hello. Either crack relics and HOPE to get prime stuff you want...or pay to open this quarters Prime Access.

It's the biggest, costliest loot boxes out there. And to get ONE frame costs MORE than an AAA game.

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Sorry. I value my time.

Then why play a game that you seem to hate so much?  Sorry, but I just had to ask this considering the posts you've made over the last year or so.  

:D

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, wanderere said:

The thing I love about POE is you can jump in do some killing missions, some mining or fishing then jump out whenever.

Its not the constant in and out of missions; especially fissure missions, I seriously got burnt out on those and stopped playing for 6 months.

Sure its got some bugs and is grindy and lets be frank way too many new resources. also garas quest was boring and not very interesting at all.

but I am enjoying it a lot, actually like it way more than the war within and that took ages to come out.

hopefully these things can be tuned and I cant for the next installment!

In fairness, being better than TWW is like winning the high jump at a limbo competition.

Those Work areas...they're pretty much a walking, talking example of "see this? Never do this in your game."

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

Then why play a game that you seem to hate so much?  Sorry, but I just had to ask this considering the posts you've made over the last year or so.  

:D

It's not the game I hate. I love the game play.

It's the increasingly intrusive business model I loathe. Wasn't always this bad, but I fear outside influence is increasing.

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, AshenOne07 said:

Can we just enjoy Plains of Eidolon guys?

I'd really love to, but the problem is the obnoxious levels of grind needed to progress in PoE, the fact that Archwing is tied to an unrelated activity and is punishing to use, and that bounties are still buggy and not terribly rewarding.

Edited October 19, 2017 by MirageKnight

[Sentinel-14]

Up front, I've not played Plains yet: I've only watched some streamers and read things here.

It seemed awfully odd to me that you get access to Plains so early in the game, yet a good chunk of the content seems to be centered around Operator use, something you don't get till MUCH later in the game. And the author's point about the Archwing is spot-on: the map is clearly meant for Archwings to be used for travel, but you cant get one until leaving Earth and going to Mars. It kind of upsets what felt like a rather linear progression from place to place. Instead, you have to go to Mars to get your Archwing, then come back. Oh, but then you have to go do the Kubrow quest, then come back. Then you have to get to SEDNA to trigger War Within in order to get your combat operator, then go back to Quills for Combat operator gear. Lots of back and forth.

After reading this article, it seems to reinforce what several people here have already been saying: Plains is not a place for new players. Despite the early access and relatively low-level stuff, you need an Operator to do much of anything at night and you can't build Gara at all without late-game materials (unless you purchase them of course, but then why not just purchase the frame outright?). It's low-level filler content for veteran players; something to do between Story update releases. I get the feeling we were not intended to "complete" Plains before Sacrifice comes out. They probably intended you to continue running sorties, doing random missions while focus or MR farming, and come back to the plains for a fishing break. Maybe do a bit of mining, then back to normal stuff. It's a sideshow: a distraction. And that's not bad, necessarily, but it's apparently not made clear to new players that they really shouldnt spend time on Plains until later.

I decided not to go into the Plains until I finished War Within. I'm just starting Second Dream again (started over on PC after playing on Xbox) so it'll be a bit before I feel ready to start PoE. Hopefully some more of the bugs will be worked out by the time I get there.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Sentinel-14

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Then why play a game that you seem to hate so much?  Sorry, but I just had to ask this considering the posts you've made over the last year or so.  

:D

Let's put this fallacious pseudo-argument to rest.

People don't devote years of time and effort complaining about a game's faults and discussing potential solutions because they hate the game. If they hate the game they just drop it and don't look back.

Criticism and desire for change is not the same thing as hate, and almost invariably stems from passion, interest, and faith that change for the better is possible.

Warframe is an awesome accomplishment, but it still has a lot of flaws. Horrendous, endemic, glaring flaws with a plethora of fairly simple solutions, if only the devs would devote some time and resources to fixing them.

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Let's put this fallacious pseudo-argument to rest.

People don't devote years of time and effort complaining about a game's faults and discussing potential solutions because they hate the game. If they hate the game they just drop it and don't look back.

Criticism and desire for change is not the same thing as hate, and almost invariably stems from passion, interest, and faith that change for the better is possible.

Warframe is an awesome accomplishment, but it still has a lot of flaws. Horrendous, endemic, glaring flaws with a plethora of fairly simple solutions, if only the devs would devote some time and resources to fixing them.

Thanks for this. Well said.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Loot boxes ON THE HORIZON?

Prime Access says Hello. Either crack relics and HOPE to get prime stuff you want...or pay to open this quarters Prime Access.

It's the biggest, costliest loot boxes out there. And to get ONE frame costs MORE than an AAA game.

While I agree that PA is absurdly priced, to be fair you just buy it and get exactly what it says on the tin.

The loot boxes we were talking about specifically are the type where you MUST pay premium currency for a CHANCE at the one thing you want mixed in with a bunch of other rewards that don't interest you... Or in the most obnoxious cases mixed in with garbage. It'd be like making players pay 10 plat to run a bounty mission.

Edit: Of course; that whole don't-like-don't-play thing really pushes my buttons because it's so mindless. Like "I don't actually want to think about what you have to say or the validity of points you are raising, so I'll just suggest you're a hater to discredit you."

Really?

Edited October 19, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[BlackCoMerc]

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

While I agree that PA is absurdly priced, to be fair you just buy it and get exactly what it says on the tin.

The loot boxes we were talking about specifically are the type where you MUST pay premium currency for a CHANCE at the one thing you want mixed in with a bunch of other rewards that don't interest you... Or in the most obnoxious cases mixed in with garbage. It'd be like making players pay 10 plat to run a bounty mission.

Edit: Of course; that whole don't-like-don't-play thing really pushes my buttons because it's so mindless. Like "I don't actually want to think about what you have to say or the validity of points you are raising, so I'll just suggest you're a hater to discredit you."

Really?

I see what is meant by loot boxes now. Shadow of War style boxes....yeah, yuck. No thanks.

[Terenor]

PoE is just a wast of time, the synergy is to low betwen Warframe and PoE. 

and the map ... sorry but the litter of my cats is bigger

Fixed

Edited October 19, 2017 by Terenor