Even PC Gamer is salty. [PC Gamer Criticism of PoE for new players]

[Slaviar]

Just now, Comrade said:

 

 

You have no idea, do you?

Extended Edition added six hours of gameplay.

Six months after Hong Kong was released.

[DxAdder]

13 hours ago, UMBRACORP said:

Eh, they're kinda right actually, sorry to say. 

http://www.pcgamer.com/if-youre-new-to-warframe-the-plains-of-eidolon-isnt-worth-your-time/

They missed the fact there is no tutorials or explanations of anything in POE, you are simply dropped into a vast expansion and left on your own.

This was released at least 2-3 months too soon.

 

[Xgomme]

3 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

You have no idea, do you?

Extended Edition added six hours of gameplay.

Six months after Hong Kong was released.

And for you extended edition is 99% bugfree ? Or maybe I do not understand

https://steamcommunity.com/app/346940/discussions/1/

[Rakosta_Kai]

16 minutes ago, Comrade said:

I'm not talking about money or revenue at all - DE's dev team isn't large enough to perfect builds, bug-free, perfectly balanced and all before shipping them in a timely manner. Is that a problem that DE has to address by hiring more people since it's no longer really an indie studio? Is it abusive to some extent of the playerbase? Maybe, but since Warframe is still technically considered an open beta in that sense they can use their playerbase to bug test as they always have. While I won't defend the amount of gamebreaking bugs that ship with their updates, It's in the EULA you agreed to in order to play.

Personally, I think it's part of the developer-player relationship DE have been so keen on fostering for years- They're some of the most responsive developers in terms of community feedback and since they are willing to trust their players with some aspects of their game design, they are trusting bug-finding to the players who will use every aspect of the game thousands of times a day.

You might not think you are talking about revenue... But you are.

Revenue is a resource...Resources are what differentiates companies that fit the mold of what you have described and companies that don't.

The things you speak of are issues that hamper small, cash-strapped studios because they lack those resources... No one should place higher expectations in those scenarios.

This isn't a small, cash-strapped studio...It's a studio generating considerable revenue in the process of launching multiple new properties and has allocated resources to developing properties for years now (Star Armor, Sword Coast Legends, and now two more properties) and has exactly as many employees as they feel they can get away with. 

As such, those excuses don't fit.

Luckily, DE isn't making them...Only players. 

That needs to stop...It's not true and runs the risk of misleading newer and less informed players.

Please understand, I am not bashing their success...I am saying that we shouldn't excuse their current failings by citing circumstances from 4 years ago.

Had they wanted to have an open test server build as opposed to the Invitation only one they opted for instead... All of these issues would have been caught immediately.

Yes, it would have dampened some of the hype... But it would have released without most of these complaints too.

 

 

[Slaviar]

4 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

And for you extended edition is 99% bugfree ? Or maybe I do not understand

https://steamcommunity.com/app/346940/discussions/1/

Nah, i was referring to Comrade saying games out of beta don't get any new content updates.

Also, if we go by logic "there are many bugs so it's beta" half of games released these days are beta.

EDIT: Actually, my bad. I misunderstood post I initially quoted.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Slaviar

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

the first thing I relized about the plains is that for a player new to the game, they are going to get stuck there, and then later have to return.

I get that DE wanted it to be a very big update to include everone, buuuut it kinda feels a little small for that right now, and too mchof its own thing. plus I am afraid that it will be hard tos scale to other open world map types (if we alwas need to fish to make archwing charges and the like, then if we need them eleswhere we are going to need to come back to the plaines). the lac of the ability to scale a lot of the mechnaics also means that the net open world map will have to be almost the same with diffrent color pallets... and much of the same thigns to do.

I hope they add a city soemday. a corpus matropolis that has been occupied by troops. the plaines feel a bit empty, and I hope they expand on it. the large tower in the backrond is a wonderfull place to expand to as well and I hope they do not waste that opertunity.

 

in short- its fun, if you have nothing eles in the game to do anymore. (I kinda like fishing but it should not be a mandirory thing. for gara, i understand it but for amps its just pading to make it harder to get)

[Xgomme]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

You might not think you are talking about revenue... But you are.

Revenue is a resource...Resources are what differentiates companies that fit the mold of what you have described and companies that don't.

The things you speak of are issues that hamper small, cash-strapped studios because they lack those resources... No one should place higher expectations in those scenarios.

This isn't a small, cash-strapped studio...It's a studio generating considerable revenue in the process of launching multiple new properties and has allocated resources to developing properties for years now (Star Armor, Sword Coast Legends, and now two more properties) and has exactly as many employees as they feel they can get away with. 

As such, those excuses don't fit.

Luckily, DE isn't making them...Only players. 

That needs to stop...It's not true and runs the risk of misleading newer and less informed players.

Please understand, I am not bashing their success...I am saying that we shouldn't excuse their current failings by citing circumstances from 4 years ago.

Had they wanted to have an open test server build as opposed to the Invitation only one they opted for instead... All of these issues would have been caught immediately.

Yes, it would have dampened some of the hype... But it would have released without most of these complaints too.

 

 

Still a mostly selfmade company, working now on their projects the same way as when they started. We're still acting as beta testers, and it's why WF is what you play now.

You think of it as an excuse, but it's just to open people eyes on something DE has been doing since the start... If the early state of an update is not "good" in your opinion... Well argue on the forums about why and how it could be better (and pls don't throw random salt like I saw these days) and wait...

 

Don't talk like if you were Bill Gates though, thart part is useless  

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

You might not think you are talking about revenue... But you are.

Revenue is a resource...Resources are what differentiates companies that fit the mold of what you have described and companies that don't.

The things you speak of are issues that hamper small, cash-strapped studios because they lack those resources... No one should place higher expectations in those scenarios.

This isn't a small, cash-strapped studio...It's a studio generating considerable revenue in the process of launching multiple new properties and has allocated resources to developing properties for years now (Star Armor, Sword Coast Legends, and now two more properties) and has exactly as many employees as they feel they can get away with. 

As such, those excuses don't fit.

Luckily, DE isn't making them...Only players. 

That needs to stop...It's not true and runs the risk of misleading newer and less informed players.

Please understand, I am not bashing their success...I am saying that we shouldn't excuse their current failings by citing circumstances from 4 years ago.

Had they wanted to have an open test server build as opposed to the Invitation only one they opted for instead... All of these issues would have been caught immediately.

Yes, it would have dampened some of the hype... But it would have released without most of these complaints too.

yup.

last year they got gold status in steam gross sales: http://store.steampowered.com/sale/2016_top_sellers/

... as a "free to play" game no less. and the tendency is rising.

they got resources for their own freaking annual convention but hiring some beta testers is asking too much? because such indie, wow? k.

[Teloch]

14 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

should get DE to seriously rethink their design decisions and listen to their more non-biased and intelligent players.

It is not about the design decisions, the issue is lack of scenario modeling / strategic thinking / end goal envisioning. DE do not think more than one (rarely two steps ahead), they have no idea how would they like their game to look in 6m, one year, two and five years from now on. Basically, they want what they do and they do what they want. This leads to spontaneity. Spontaneity leads to the results we can read to in the article linked to the original post of this thread.

[Rakosta_Kai]

11 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Still a mostly selfmade company, working now on their projects the same way as when they started. We're still acting as beta testers, and it's why WF is what you play now.

You think of it as an excuse, but it's just to open people eyes on something DE has been doing since the start... If the early state of an update is not "good" in your opinion... Well argue on the forums about why and how it could be better (and pls don't throw random salt like I saw these days) and wait...

DE made Warframe successful on their own and sold it. 

...Nothing wrong with that.

But don't spin yarns about how they are the young small upstart company with a bright idea like they are "The Little Engine That Could" though...That was 4 years ago.

They aren't that anymore... They are "The Little Engine That Already Did and Keeps Doing".

Standing by old excuses for them rings hollow at this point... So let's not.

Fortunately, it's only players making it... DE has chosen to make no excuses and I respect them for that.

 

22 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Don't talk like if you were Bill Gates though, thart part is useless  

I have no idea what this means...

Am I speaking above your head? 

Do you need more emojis in order for what I say to make sense? 

 

[Comrade]

41 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

You have no idea, do you?

Extended Edition added six hours of gameplay.

Six months after Hong Kong was released.

Meant to add that the reference was lost on me. Damn. That sounds tragic. 

[Xgomme]

6 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

DE made Warframe successful on their own and sold it. 

...Nothing wrong with that.

But don't spin yarns about how they are the young small upstart company with a bright idea like they are "The Little Engine That Could" though...That was 4 years ago.

They aren't that anymore... They are "The Little Engine That Already Did and Keeps Doing".

Standing by old excuses for them rings hollow at this point... So let's not.

Fortunately, it's only players making it... DE has chosen to make no excuses and I respect them for that.

 

I have no idea what this means...

Am I speaking above your head? 

Do you need more emojis in order for what I say to make sense? 

 

Blablabla, you're so intelligent and proud, I love you. Enough ?

 

Now maybe you can try to understand what I'm defending, the fact that actual Warframe game is like that BECAUSE they made and still make this sort of "public beta test" thing. And it's a really good thing to me

(They never "sold" it, learn your facts)

 

The last part was just a sarcasm because you talk like if you were making economy rules, when you just throw random passive-agressive sentences from your disabled high horse.

 

 

Oh, and "Do you need more emojis in order for what I say to make sense? " > I love fail sentences when people are trolling, delicious.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Xgomme

[SilvaDreams]

Sorry but PCGamer is almost as bad as IGN, I could care less what they publish because all it takes is a few green backs to get them to give good reviews

[Slaviar]

2 minutes ago, Comrade said:

Meant to add that the reference was lost on me. Damn. That sounds tragic. 

 

40 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

Nah, i was referring to Comrade saying games out of beta don't get any new content updates.

Also, if we go by logic "there are many bugs so it's beta" half of games released these days are beta.

EDIT: Actually, my bad. I misunderstood post I initially quoted.

Still, all games get plenty of bugfixes. It doesn't matter if it's beta. open beta, early access or released.

[Nirrel]

50 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

And it is, new players can roam, fish, bounties and do mostly everything in the plains. It was just not really logicial to think anybody will have everything unlocked at start. Even more when we talk about archwing or kubrows, things we have to earn outside of the plains. And since the biggest content of the plains is for players with operators (we know that since ages)... I don't see how it was logical to think it would be a MR1 place. It's clear people will need to do at least the quests for AW and Operators to really start the plains, but you can still visit way before and it's a good point.

But now imagine it the other way : "PoE locked to MR10 or bellow"

You'll see everybody asking "But, but, at least let me fish ! It's a shame, blablabla, poor new players"

Of course it is cool that you can access it at a low level but there is just no point to it. You cannot grind stuff that you can elsewhere on earth to progress, and everything you get there is pretty much useless for you at that rank. Why would you go there then? Something that was advertiesed as an atraction for new players offers virtually nothing for them until they get to a certain level. I do see the reviwer's disappointment.

I personally just dislike the buggy state in wich was released, player progress gated behind fishing and the ridicolous bounty rewards. But hey I'm not new. :P

[Rakosta_Kai]

7 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Now maybe you can try to understand what I'm defending, the fact that actual Warframe game is like that BECAUSE they made and still make this sort of "public beta test" thing. And it's a really good thing to me

(They never "sold" it, learn your facts)

It ain't just a river in Egypt ...

I hate to break it to ya, but that company is sold.

They don't maintain a controlling interest in their company.

Or you can call it "almost permanent indentured servitude" if that feels better to hear as it's entirely possible they can buy their stocks back eventually.

14 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

The last part was just a sarcasm because you talk like if you were making economy rules, when you just throw random passive-agressive sentences from your disabled high horse.

What does Bill Gates have to do with Finance... He's a tech guy?

...Bless your heart.

16 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Oh, and "Do you need more emojis in order for what I say to make sense? " > I love fail sentences when people are trolling, delicious.

I was being serious... And all evidence points to you having a distinct need to increase your understanding.

If you need emojis bud, just let me know.

[MirageKnight]

2 hours ago, Teloch said:

It is not about the design decisions, the issue is lack of scenario modeling / strategic thinking / end goal envisioning. DE do not think more than one (rarely two steps ahead), they have no idea how would they like their game to look in 6m, one year, two and five years from now on. Basically, they want what they do and they do what they want. This leads to spontaneity. Spontaneity leads to the results we can read to in the article linked to the original post of this thread.

I definitely agree that lack of true, proper focus and clear plans with defined end goals is a huge problem that creates and has created headaches for all of us.

That said, I still feel that poorly thought-out design decisions also play their part in the problems we're facing. DE ultimately decided that just about everything in the update would require fishing, including player progression and an important fast travel option (Archwing). They also decided to design Archwing use in PoE in such a way that it's arguably frustrating and pretty much a waste of effort and resources to use. They made a design decision to make everything in the Cetus markets require Standing to obtain, instead of Credits which would have made far more sense (with standing merely unlocking what you're allowed to buy / have access to). They decided that Sniper Rifles don't need the high zoom levels they used to and that they need damage fall-off, which has left those weapons a bit underwhelming in the one environment they should be extremely well suited to.

And of course they decided to make Eidelons ignore the one mod that actually made taking them down less of a massively time-consuming chore for those of us that aren't try-hards.

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

What does Bill Gates have to do with Finance... He's a tech guy?

Just giving information.  Bill is not just a tech guy.  He's also known as being one of the most forward thinking and shrewd businessmen in the corporate world too.  

I still don't know the reasoning behind using him in an argument for this topic though.  LOL 

[k05h]

I said it in another thread. The mined resources should have been unrefined versions of exisiting earth and void resources. These unrefined versions (like crude rubedo, detonite spliterns or argon shards) could used for two things. Create crystrals to trade with the Ostron and create refined version (normal rubedo, detonite and whatever) from blueprints. That way the economy in PoE is closed off but at the same time whatever you mine can be used (through extra cheap blueprints) in the rest of the game. It would be a one way street that allows extracting resources from the plains but not bringing resources to the plains.

Everything "fishy" should just be tradeable for regular resources. But only in that direction. 

Veterans like me dont need more resources but new players that stumble upon eidolon just need a way to make use of what they farmed in the rest of the game. 

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

49 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Just giving information.  Bill is not just a tech guy.  He's also known as being one of the most forward thinking and shrewd businessmen in the corporate world too.  

I still don't know the reasoning behind using him in an argument for this topic though.  LOL 

Completely agree...

His writings on how to positively impact global education on all lvls up to advanced education, health, and hunger are things every country should be taking more seriously.

...And he's got the guts to back it with his own money.

Not to mention the fact that he beat Steve Jobs.

But...I didn't understand his meaning either so I pointed it out =)

[Xgomme]

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

It ain't just a river in Egypt ...

I hate to break it to ya, but that company is sold.

They don't maintain a controlling interest in their company.

Or you can call it "almost permanent indentured servitude" if that feels better to hear as it's entirely possible they can buy their stocks back eventually.

What does Bill Gates have to do with Finance... He's a tech guy?

...Bless your heart.

I was being serious... And all evidence points to you having a distinct need to increase your understanding.

If you need emojis bud, just let me know.

With such random answers and so much "upvotes" you should hide your alt accounts better, "Mister" 

 

If your goal is still to avoid the point and try to mix words to the point they lose their purpose, bravo, you won... 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

while the writer of that particular article has a few good points. the problem is that he's new: new players have an immediate handicap because they don't have the resources they need to fully engage themselves with the plains. DE intended the plains to be for veterans and it does that very well, however whilst newer players are allowed to access the Plains, it's only been made that way because DE didn't want to lock newer players out of it, believing it to be unfair.

some may consider it elitist, but I think the Plains should've been locked off to new players. not because I harbour hatred towards them, but because they just aren't ready for a grind like that. they can barely understand the usual grind we've had for years, what chance would they have with stuff that veterans are struggling to come to terms with. if you're a new player reading this, avoid the plains. get as far as you can everywhere else first, and then once you have your quests done, some stockpiled resources and some decent gear, you'll be ready for the plains. it should have been something to work towards.

I personally am ready, but only because I have been playing for years, have more resources than I'll ever need and top-tier weapons. and yet I'm going to have to invest even more time into getting the plains-specific resources and items. IMO, Plains should be treated as the "endgame", because it's intended as the biggest time sink since Fashionframe. I do think that DE could reduce the grind a little bit, and they are in the process of doing so, but I also can see how the Plains is a lot to take in for newer players. access to the Plains would be an excellent drive for newer players to invest in the game, and at least through playing the main "campaign" as that guy says, they're better prepared for the grind of the Plains.

TL;DR: new players are easily overwhelmed, so they should really have been pushed through the main game first (maybe not all the way, but at least up to Second Dream) and have the Plains as a goal to work towards. newbies are at risk of souring their Warframe experience because they see the grind on the plains and think "lol, nope".

[Rakosta_Kai]

58 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

With such random answers and so much "upvotes" you should hide your alt accounts better, "Mister" 

 

If your goal is still to avoid the point and try to mix words to the point they lose their purpose, bravo, you won... 

[Abenoki]

16 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

First of all, DE hasn't expressed a coherent vision for the game. They're making it up as they go along (they've even said this). Second of all, for years now players have been letting DE know what works and what doesn't work. They don't always listen and they don't always work with players to give players the game they want. I agree that they listen more than other developers I've seen. But they also make decisions and mistakes that other developers don't make, and they often stubbornly hold to them. I think it's important to deal critically with devs instead of constantly praising their every move. It's also important not to constantly bash them. But being critical isn't bashing. It's ok to be critical. The people being critical (and critically constructive with their feedback) are the ones who care about the game and want it to improve. Unfortunately, so many here don't understand that and criticize anyone who is critical of the game. The people who let DE know what works and what doesn't are called "salty" and "ungrateful." I digress.

Overall, it's good to let DE know what works and what doesn't, but DE also needs to pay a little bit more attention to people who offer suggestions for improving features. They'll often listen to balancing issues and economy issues, but they also often ignore feedback that suggests improving features' core mechanics. When it comes to letting DE know what features' core mechanics don't work, they're not as willing to work with us on that. So, in that regard, us offering feedback doesn't mean DE will work with us to make a game that we want. They'll make the game they want, and they'll listen to our feedback only to the point where it doesn't challenge what they want (again, I wouldn't call it vision, because vision implies foresight). That's great for the DE-community relationship (and DE's better at this than most), but them being a bit more open-minded about players' feature suggestions would make that relationship even better.

I disagree that they ignore, is not always a matter of "They just ignore us" as certain aspects take precedence over others and are far easier and quicker to fix. They've suggested revision of damage mods a few times now just for the community to go absolutely ape over it (muh multishot, etc.) for example. That's one of the big ones that they've suggested revisiting or even been attempting to revisit at times. 

Online game development comes with a balance, you need to produce new content or people get bored, but you need to fix broken content or people get mad and think you don't care. The easily fixable things come first along with new content, the harder to fix become long term projects you chip away at.

We need to be critical of the game for it to improve, and I think people also need to understand the is a line between critical and constructive feedback and "doom&gloom" or straight belligerent feedback. Being critical isn't "salty" , "mad", etc.  Also it needs to be known that all things aren't nor can be fixed immediately. Don't assume you're ignored just because it's not changed in your time frame or how you wanted it. It could be the case sure, but do we need to assume the worst for the sake of just doing so to feed our own rage?

[Mintaro]

Alright lets take a few steps back this be heating up a little with nonsense so uh back to pc gamer review thank you.