No seriously DE. You need better introductions and tutorials.

[Spartan336]

Dear DE,

I want to start by saying that I love this game. I've been here since 2013, I think it's just amazing what DE has done, and they have my full support. As such, I love to introduce other people to Space Ninja Simulator Farmer Edition because it's awesome. One problem. I have to hold their hand the entire way, and give them a constant stream of info because the game wont. And it's not any of the hard stuff either. They constantly get confused about the bare basics of the game because either the Lotus/Ordis didn't explain it well enough, they missed that dialogue pop-up, or it just isn't explained at all. Modding is a good example of this. 

Here's the reason this is a MUST fix, despite Warframes already massive player base. 

DE is trying a bunch of stuff to get the game out there. Twitch drops, the massive PR blast that was PoE, all of which I support. And guess what? More and more people are joining. I've seen a significant increase in new players since this started. It's great. You know whats not great? A large number of those people getting turned away because they have no clue what the hell they're doing in the game. A lot of them don't have people to hold their hands, or know that they'll need the wiki. And when the new players HAVE to get to the wiki to even get by, you know you need a revamp. A good example of this is this guy, who didn't even know he'd fallen victim to a glitch among other things. 

He also brings up a little thing called Cetus, which he can access. Considering that the Plains have an end-game grind in them, I'm shaking my head at the fact that new players can get to it. I've heard you can get to the plains in 2 hours. 2 hours for the end-game grind area, where you are met with a ton of walls in the open world announcement that brought you here. 

Warframe is notorious for not holding a players hand. And I think that's a good model for this game. But at LEAST nudge them in the right direction, because putting them smack dab in the middle of a maze with no directions other than "Complete the maze" will just cause them to stop playing. This NEEDS to be fixed.

I've heard arguments for the fact that the game changes so often it's hard to do a proper tutorial. I beg to differ, since the problems I most encounter in-game are the ones about the core mechanics of the game, stuff that hasn't changed in 2-3 years. And when new players are getting confused over that, and need my help, there's a serious problem. 

So DE. If you want people to jump into the game, you're doing the right thing. But if you want them to KEEP PLAYING, then you need to FIX THIS. Because a lot of people aren't willing to deal with the BS that the game throws at you in the beginning. Believe me, it's gotten better over the years. I remember not knowing what to do and leaving the game behind myself. (For about a few weeks before I discovered the Wiki.) And less of that happens now. But you need to make a big effort to change the beginning so that people know what they're getting into. Now the PoE is done, I think you can at least consider doing that. 

EDIT: After posting this, I introduced one of my friends to Warframe. He enjoyed playing it, but only played a few hours before getting off and not getting on again. When I asked him why, he replied that the game was to confusing, and didn't even tell him that stealth killing was a thing. He did that on accident. He also has a problem with melee controls, but thats a post for another feedback thread. Point is, he left because the game hardly explained anything to him besides "Space ninja." It didn't tell him how to space ninja. 

-Love ya, 

Spartan336

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Spartan336
Friend's Experience.

[MajTOM]

I need to type out my experiences as a player and this only scratches the surface of the problems this game has been doing for close to two years now... Great ideas but execution have been lacking along with LORE reasons for doing things.

[(PSN)WhattamattaU]

after streaming over 50 non-partner streamers, some of which got a plat boost it seems and close to 90% of them having never played it seems... this was painful to watch. Some were so lost even during vor's prize, many more after that with no clue what to do. others getting carried by people they knew complaining they had a hard time surviving, not knowing they needed mods they were missing to help them survive... and if they had them, not knowing they needed to rank them up and other basics a tutorial should of explained.   many were lucky to have some random viewer that happened to pop in to give basic info and let them figure out how to go about it themselves... some streamers seemed dead set against any backseat gaming at all. so even with help were noticeably getting frustrated... 

another thing i saw on a number of streams, quests... and them wanting to plow through them as qik as possible...  not a bad thing, however Limbo was EVERYONES downfall. watching them go in with unranked archwings and weapons, many being their first interception mission. saw a few just give up on that quest all together and then after that wonder what to go do next, not knowing that they could or even how to switch out their active quest.

of course there was the opposite of this all, they took to it like a fish in water, but they seemed to be more of the exception then the norm.

 

 

[blazinvire]

I have to admit, as much as I love it when games don't dumb things down for you or constantly hold your hand, I do remember feeling lost in the past though it was so long I can't really remember the details.

When PoE was released I had a bit of a flashback moment, considering the launcher and the forum was all exploding with energy about this rad new update, and when I get in the game I'm met with literally nothing.

Nothing in inbox, no alert on the navigation console, no indication to even glance at the codex -which wasn't even that enlightening as it took me forever to blunder upon the Saya's Vigil quest, and even longer to figure out how to access the Quills.
They may have ironed some of that out, but it was a firm reminder that DE doesn't do tutorials so well.  I imagine if I hadn't have watched so many Devstreams or PrimeTimes I might've felt lost in other updates too.

Things weren't quite as intuitive; the whole 'Do a bounty before you can access this quest' felt kind of random and arbitrary, like the game is expecting you to try something totally random in order to see if that helps them progress in some particular direction.
I like the idea of trial and error, but some direction would be nice.  Just something small-yet-obvious as a way of saying "You might want to aim your efforts in this direction."

I think there might have been an official game-psychology-design term for this, where you subtly lead the player's attention -if they're looking for a lead.
Like when you put a crack in a wall next to a window you want them to investigate, if they're looking for things to investigate, they'll find the crack and then naturally check out the window immediately after, without even really thinking about it.

[UltimateGrr]

Yeah the tutorials are bad.  I really think we should get a voiced guide to modding weapons and warframes as part of the Vor's Prize quest.  You've recused Darvo, and he expresses amazement that you managed to save him at all with gear with no mods, before discovering you don't know how to mod at all, and at that point he gives you some basic broken mods (and verbally tells you they're scaled down and broken) and gives you a brief run down on how modding and mod fusion works.

[Shalath]

Totally agree. Like blazinvire I personally like being in the dark and having to figure stuff out rather than being hand-held. I like scouring the wiki for tricks and tips. I am unusual like that though and I can understand that newer players that don't have my persistence could be easily lost. I had a friend that has played for about 3 years as a Frost main and didn't know he could blow up his snow globes with snowballs or the invincibility phase on Rhino's Iron Skin for example. I have posted the idea of adding tips to loading screens like other game do more than once.

If DE aren't good at tutorials or don't fancy the work why not run a competition and let the players make tutorials? I've seen enough threads about the lack of tutorials and information to think that doing so would get them a lot of entries.

[Spartan336]

10 hours ago, Shalath said:

Totally agree. Like blazinvire I personally like being in the dark and having to figure stuff out rather than being hand-held. I like scouring the wiki for tricks and tips. I am unusual like that though and I can understand that newer players that don't have my persistence could be easily lost. I had a friend that has played for about 3 years as a Frost main and didn't know he could blow up his snow globes with snowballs or the invincibility phase on Rhino's Iron Skin for example. I have posted the idea of adding tips to loading screens like other game do more than once.

If DE aren't good at tutorials or don't fancy the work why not run a competition and let the players make tutorials? I've seen enough threads about the lack of tutorials and information to think that doing so would get them a lot of entries.

Loading screen tips would be a great start!

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Try playing a raid.

[blissy_sama]

This so much. I'm fine with not being overly handholdy but even basic things like bullet jumping aren't really explained. I had to be told that it was a thing and how to do it by somebody who was carrying me, and I've seen streamers who are new to Warframe respond with "are you trolling me" when told to ctrl + space because it wasn't in the tutorial (and after all why wouldn't something so important be in the tutorial). Modding is another thing that reeeeeally needs an adequate explanation - I've talked to new people who kept dying in missions because they literally had no idea modding was even a thing or how it worked, and just thought the mod pickups were some sort of power up they got during the mission.

"Just use the wiki" isn't an ideal response - for console players its very not ideal to have to look at a wiki to figure out even basic things, and its hardly the best for PC players either. Having to look at a wiki or external resources is fine for things like raids and sorties, but those are end game content. The first hour or two of the game are the most important as those are where people decide either to play or to give up, and pointing them in the direction of external resources to explain basic things as though that's an adequate solution is likely to turn some people off.

I'm not saying anything needs to be dumbed down, I'm just saying that the basic things need to be better explained than they are, or explained at all for that matter. Warframe has a consistent problem with how it conveys information (if it conveys it at all), and not everybody will have people to carry or help them out. For the benefit of those people, a more in-depth tutorial regarding the fundamentals is absolutely a necessary thing.

[TaylorsContraction]

Sadly I must agree with this. For example a friend of mine whose hand I held to get him into the game. Even though he completed the war within, he didn't know that you can hold 5 to use your operator for almost a year after completing the quest. This kind of info is just not presented to the player. It's moot now since there is no more tap or hold functionality but this is a prime example of not explaining things.

[xXDeadsinxX]

I do agree with this 100%. Hopefully DE does add tutorials in the future.

[Dexzy]

New players need to stop sucking so much and learn how to use Google or YouTube,  All you do is complain about how gear is expensive and everything is so grindy. You can say players shouldn't have to do that but honestly I wish it was more confusing to root out the lazy noobs that sit in region asking a millon stupid questions instead of alt+tabbing the wonderful world of the wiki. Half the players like this you tell them where to get the stuff they need ect, and they won't even go get it or complain they aren't at the tile yet. You need to work hard to play hard I spent the first 2 weeks playing warframe on the wiki or youtube 50% of the time.

 

[Spartan336]

10 minutes ago, Dexzy said:

New players need to stop sucking so much and learn how to use Google or YouTube,  All you do is complain about how gear is expensive and everything is so grindy. You can say players shouldn't have to do that but honestly I wish it was more confusing to root out the lazy noobs that sit in region asking a millon stupid questions instead of alt+tabbing the wonderful world of the wiki. Half the players like this you tell them where to get the stuff they need ect, and they won't even go get it or complain they aren't at the tile yet. You need to work hard to play hard I spent the first 2 weeks playing warframe on the wiki or youtube 50% of the time.

 

Dude. Google and youtube aren't a part of Warframe, so people shouldn't have to use them. People get turned away from Warframe because of this, and the goal isn't to turn people away and "Root Out Lazy Noobs" because that doesn't make DE money. People ask 'Simple' questions in chat because the game never explains those 'Simple' things to them. If the game was any more loose then no one would get into it, and the Warframe player base would slowly start to die. Thats why this needs to be fixed. 

Also you're being a #$&(%. Please fix your attitude. 

[Spartan336]

2 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Sadly I must agree with this. For example a friend of mine whose hand I held to get him into the game. Even though he completed the war within, he didn't know that you can hold 5 to use your operator for almost a year after completing the quest. This kind of info is just not presented to the player. It's moot now since there is no more tap or hold functionality but this is a prime example of not explaining things.

Also yeah. When I completed the War Within, it took me a few months to realize you could bring it out, and another month before I bothered to look it up online. 

[blissy_sama]

2 hours ago, Dexzy said:

New players need to stop sucking so much and learn how to use Google or YouTube,  All you do is complain about how gear is expensive and everything is so grindy. You can say players shouldn't have to do that but honestly I wish it was more confusing to root out the lazy noobs that sit in region asking a millon stupid questions instead of alt+tabbing the wonderful world of the wiki. Half the players like this you tell them where to get the stuff they need ect, and they won't even go get it or complain they aren't at the tile yet. You need to work hard to play hard I spent the first 2 weeks playing warframe on the wiki or youtube 50% of the time.

 

You realise new players might not even know the wiki exists right? If all you've done is download from steam and register, you might not even know the wiki is a thing, and I fail to see the problem with asking questions about things that aren't clear in region chat. That's aside from the point that alt tabbing isn't really a thing on console now is it.

[Spartan336]

17 hours ago, blissy_sama said:

You realise new players might not even know the wiki exists right? If all you've done is download from steam and register, you might not even know the wiki is a thing, and I fail to see the problem with asking questions about things that aren't clear in region chat. That's aside from the point that alt tabbing isn't really a thing on console now is it.

Yeah, that's a good point. On consoles people can't even tab out to the wiki. They'd have to use a phone, and are less likely to know the wiki exists. 

[(XBOX)calvina]

On 22/10/2017 at 1:32 PM, UltimateGrr said:

Yeah the tutorials are bad.  I really think we should get a voiced guide to modding weapons and warframes as part of the Vor's Prize quest.  You've recused Darvo, and he expresses amazement that you managed to save him at all with gear with no mods, before discovering you don't know how to mod at all, and at that point he gives you some basic broken mods (and verbally tells you they're scaled down and broken) and gives you a brief run down on how modding and mod fusion works.

 

I was actually thinking of another tutorial quest right after Vor's Prize,

"Tenno, now that you're no longer in immediate danger, It's time that I'll help you get refamiliarized, I have requested the help of a certain contact, meet him on these coordinates"

Basically, Lotus then sends you off to meet Teshin as he seems the most suited with being the Tenno Teacher. There he'll give you a rundown on all the relevant mechanics along with an obstacle course to help train yourself, etc.

-Start off with basic and advanced movement, talking about it's uses

-Moves you onto an arsenal point and asks you to bring up the modding menu, to explain all the relevant information

-Damage 2.0 and factions, what each faction are good at and what damage type they're weak from.

-Brief summary off the star chart after that, etc.

Edited October 24, 2017 by (XB1)calvina

[wookiefer]

On 23.10.2017 at 12:45 AM, Dexzy said:

New players need to stop sucking so much and learn how to use Google or YouTube,  All you do is complain about how gear is expensive and everything is so grindy. You can say players shouldn't have to do that but honestly I wish it was more confusing to root out the lazy noobs that sit in region asking a millon stupid questions instead of alt+tabbing the wonderful world of the wiki. Half the players like this you tell them where to get the stuff they need ect, and they won't even go get it or complain they aren't at the tile yet. You need to work hard to play hard I spent the first 2 weeks playing warframe on the wiki or youtube 50% of the time.

 

New players should just take the time, do the quests and stop going "xp farm" to grow fast the master rank so that they have time to understand what is going on. And veterans when helping them stop showing off, be there for them just to revive if necesary. xd

 

[Spartan336]

6 minutes ago, wookiefer said:

New players should just take the time, do the quests and stop going "xp farm" to grow fast the master rank so that they have time to understand what is going on. And veterans when helping them stop showing off, be there for them just to revive if necesary. xd

 

They wont even get to the quests or xp farms if they just get turned away and quit. My friend only lasted 1 hour before leaving. 

[wookiefer]

6 minutes ago, Spartan336 said:

They wont even get to the quests or xp farms if they just get turned away and quit. My friend only lasted 1 hour before leaving. 

that is bad. make him play Quake

[wookiefer]

Yes, it was a little dificult to get used to all the keys, but once you admit you don't have to be the fastest, or the strongest and you take your time to find out what is the best for you, like what frame, what weapon it is fun. And it is all about fun, imo, otherwise it would be not a game. And that 100 days in warframe video kinda summarises all players "pain" (and it is also so fun, I had a good laugh there) :) And yeah, since it's a co-op game ask your clan for help, don't be a solo player, you are missing alot of good stuff doing so. And..yeah you get to mr 24 and you don't know frost can lose his globe if you use 1 on him...

[SpoonyBrad]

On 10/22/2017 at 4:45 PM, Dexzy said:

New players need to stop sucking so much and learn how to use Google or YouTube,  All you do is complain about how gear is expensive and everything is so grindy. You can say players shouldn't have to do that but honestly I wish it was more confusing to root out the lazy noobs that sit in region asking a millon stupid questions instead of alt+tabbing the wonderful world of the wiki. Half the players like this you tell them where to get the stuff they need ect, and they won't even go get it or complain they aren't at the tile yet. You need to work hard to play hard I spent the first 2 weeks playing warframe on the wiki or youtube 50% of the time.

As has been remarked, time and again, new players may not even know the wiki exists, and it's impractical for console players to use. Someone not knowing about a mechanic that was never explained or even hinted at is not a lazy noob. If anyone needs to stop sucking, it's you.

[DeltaPangaea]

Is there really no 'here's how you bullet jump' in the tutorial?

Coulda swore there USED to be, unless they changed it. I recall there being a bullet jump tutorial of some kind somewhere. Maybe when parkour 2.0 actually came out. But yes, Warframe could do much better on tutorials. And information in general.

Like when modding things, actually let people scroll through the little tips window. "Man I forgot what makes corrosion and what it's good against, sure would be nice if this tip thing would let me see the tip I know exists but I forgot about"

I don't believe there's any kind of tutorial for how the F*** Void Relics work. If I didn't see it on stream I'd have no goddamn idea where to find the Quills.

And while it's not actually related to informing the player, we still have our goddamn ascaris negator and the blueprint for it, which is a goddamn crafting tutorial item that doesn't need to stick in people's gosh-heckin' danged inventory! If anything it's possibly BAD for that blueprint to be reusable since it could get people thinking that all blueprints are reusable when they AIN'T. Make it a nonreusable blueprint, make the Negator consumed. Make someone mention that the blueprint isn't reusable but hopefully you won't ever need a second.

Goddamn. Seeing those two things still stuck in my inventory makes me twitch.

[Spartan336]

3 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Is there really no 'here's how you bullet jump' in the tutorial?

Coulda swore there USED to be, unless they changed it. I recall there being a bullet jump tutorial of some kind somewhere. Maybe when parkour 2.0 actually came out. But yes, Warframe could do much better on tutorials. And information in general.

 

Yeah. As me and another discussed, there is actually a tutorial for bullet jumping. It's just buried in the codex where new players wouldn't find it. 

[wookiefer]

9 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Is there really no 'here's how you bullet jump' in the tutorial?

Coulda swore there USED to be, unless they changed it. I recall there being a bullet jump tutorial of some kind somewhere. Maybe when parkour 2.0 actually came out. But yes, Warframe could do much better on tutorials. And information in general.

 

 

It is... True, easy to miss it if in a hurry, but it is there.

Edited October 24, 2017 by wookiefer