Focus 2.0: Focus Exp = Not Fun

[Aleksi134]

2 hours ago, Ceryk said:

The idea behind Focus Exp is supposed to be that the Tenno gains experience as they are out there doing things. In theory, that's fine. It makes perfect sense. There isn't any faction for Focus Exp, so missions for it would make no logical sense. The problem is the system is poorly executed and it doesn't end up working. Part of that is the abysmal rate of gains and partly because the affinity system is flawed to begin with and it rewards being bored over just playing the game.

As for the medallions, we have Brilliant Eidolon Shards to fill that role so that is already in the game.

Well since quills have been added there is no excuse for the whole no faction thing.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, OfficialFrogvara said:

if I want all the Waybounds, I only have to unlock the from 4 trees, having one active primary. Just to unlock a node, I need it maxed and have 1 mil focus + Brilliant Eidolon shard. 2 Waybounds per tree, that's 8 million focus. If I were to cap every day, that's 4 days per 1 mil, so 32 days in total. And that's just to unlock the nodes! I don't even know how much focus I need to max all the nodes.

And you even forget that you need to buy those focus slots to be able to activate them. The first level of the zenurik energy dash uses up 3 slots.

[CerebrateJoe]

A little salty, but factually accurate and very articulate.  I don't think there were any points I disagreed with, and there were even some I hadn't considered.  I hope DE takes this criticism seriously.  It is harsh, but not unfair.

[Sigma-118]

Ok heres what I think needs to be done:

1. Drastically buff all lenses. And i am talking big number buffs here. Like really big. Seriously..... big buffs.

2. Plz just let convergence orbs be a drop from enemies instead of spawing FAR AWAY FROM THE ACTION..... IN AN ACTION GAME!!!

 

And heres what I think could be done, and would be very nice if it did get done:

1. Since convergence orbs will be dropped from enemies you could make it so that the effects of them stack when you pick up an additional convergance orb before the effect expires. Or alternatively have additional convergance orb pickups replenish the effects duration.

2. As DiabolusUrsus in another thread mentioned increase the number of levels for each focus node to be fully unlocked while drastically decreasing the cost of each upgrade ( just for clarification, there doesnt need to be a buff or nerf to any abilities. just add in more levels inbetween the first and last)

[OfficialFrogvara]

45 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

And you even forget that you need to buy those focus slots to be able to activate them. The first level of the zenurik energy dash uses up 3 slots.

Yeah! The overall cost for just two nodes, not even the whole tree, is just ridiculous.

2 minutes ago, Sigma-118 said:

2. As DiabolusUrsus in another thread mentioned increase the number of levels for each focus node to be fully unlocked while drastically decreasing the cost of each upgrade ( just for clarification, there doesnt need to be a buff or nerf to any abilities. just add in more levels inbetween the first and last)

That is also one option, though I still think the cost should be lowered drastically for the whole tree, adding a smoother curve to progress is an easy way to increase levelling satisfaction.

[Ceryk]

7 hours ago, OfficialFrogvara said:

The lenses also really should be made either swappable or equipped onto the Operator, which would however need a revamp of the system.

To be perfectly blunt, without this change there is absolutely, without question, NO good way to fix Focus Exp because a group of players is still ACTIVELY being punished for having fun. A revamp as drastic as the one to the skill trees is the only way to make it fair to everyone. One lens, on the Operator.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Ceryk

[ra9una]

11 hours ago, aleksi134 said:

Syndicates are actually fun to farm ish. You have variety of missions to choose from to do syndicate missions from which you gain set amount of standing and passive standing gain, and there is the collectable items you can turn in aswell in the missions, why doesnt focus have system like this?

I think the core difference, for me at least, in the enjoyment of the two point systems, is as simple as the rate of affinity conversion. Because if you look carefully, the rates are pretty similar. In fact, the wiki states the base syndicate rep to be about 2.25%, which is an eidolon lens for focus. But the difference, is that you need tens (tens) of times more focus to do anything with it, as compared to syndicate rep. So same gain rate, but tens, even hundreds of times the expenditure. 

[Ceryk]

1 hour ago, ra9una said:

I think the core difference, for me at least, in the enjoyment of the two point systems, is as simple as the rate of affinity conversion. Because if you look carefully, the rates are pretty similar. In fact, the wiki states the base syndicate rep to be about 2.25%, which is an eidolon lens for focus. But the difference, is that you need tens (tens) of times more focus to do anything with it, as compared to syndicate rep. So same gain rate, but tens, even hundreds of times the expenditure. 

In most cases, it's nowhere near being close to equivalent even if you ignore the cap being 10x larger. Just getting the Eidolon Lens BP requires a miracle. And once you have it, you need a minimum of 2 Eidolon Lenses to get full returns, assuming you drop everything you have equipped but one weapon. Other wise, you need 4-5 to see full returns.

Syndicates have a single source that has bonuses attached to it while most people will probably not be getting their hands on Eidolon lenses for a long time, if ever.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Ceryk

[ra9una]

On 10/28/2017 at 5:06 PM, Ceryk said:

In most cases, it's nowhere near being close to equivalent even if you ignore the cap being 10x larger. Just getting the Eidolon Lens BP requires a miracle. And once you have it, you need a minimum of 2 Eidolon Lenses to get full returns, assuming you drop everything you have equipped but one weapon. Other wise, you need 4-5 to see full returns.

Syndicates have a single source that has bonuses attached to it while most people will probably not be getting their hands on Eidolon lenses for a long time, if ever.

Right. I suppose I was underestimating the hurdle of getting lenses since even the best case scenario seems so hopelessly abject. But basically, best case scenario : the gain is completely out of balance with the amounts needed. And then, for most people : it's even worst...

 

[LSG501]

Ok I've said about this in several other threads so I might as well just cut and paste it here too with a few additions. 

I'm in complete agreement with everyone raising the issue about the grind needed for focus, I've said this numerous times and the usual rebuttal from the 'white knights' is 'getting focus is easy, just go grind map x using frame and weapon yz'... 

I'll just summarise my issues with the current focus and I'll ignore the fact I absolutely see no reason for the operators in the first place.

• Focus return from the orbs is tiny, a base of 1.25-2.25% is so small it might as well not even be there.  IMO this should be 10x that amount to make the grind almost worthwhile if you want to keep the existing prices, although personally I'd rather see the actual costs being lowered and our points refunded again. 
• The orbs never appear anywhere near where you're fighting either and it's all very well having them but I'd personally rather have a straight buff ALL the time.
• We are restricted on our weapons/frames etc due to the way that each focus school has it's own lens instead of a central pool of points which we can spend on whichever focus school needs the points.  What's the point in all the frames and weapons if we're stuck using the same ones because we're having to specifically spend our time farming focus...
• We need to unlock 'space' for our focus abilities still meaning the unlock cost for a new tier/branch actually has additional cost to that of the tier/branch itself.  This needs removing...there is no need for this in focus 1.0 let alone focus 2.0.
• If we don't 'meta farm' there is no way on this planet that someone who has a life outside of this game (ie most normal people) could get enough focus to max out their daily allowance meaning these estimates for completion will be extended even further. 
• We've said this about no end of things in the game but we don't mind a reasonable grind but it's repetitive grind that annoys us, 'meta farming' is so incredibly boring and many of us want to play more than just one map a night....
• We can get 25k standing from using the flawless eidolon core for focus instead of quills standing but they're also the best value return for quills standing and even at 1200 points of value we need 310 of these to fully level up our quills standing (ignoring any additional costs for items/levelling or gains from the little guys).... Maybe this should be changed so we get a 'focus pool' that we can use after handing in the flawless core rather than it being and either or situation. 
• Ideally we should have multiple schools now due to the operator synergy so the grind is multiplied up to 5x...
• Focus farming was already annoying, so the new 'linking' to the operator which has it's own grind wall has basically made me go sod it, the operator isn't important enough to me for this grind, we only need to use it on 2 things which if I'm honest didn't need operator, it was just forced on us so the dev's could 'validate' the unnecessary addition.  Kuva farming doesn't need any upgrades and the upgrades to fight the teralyst are in a catch 22 situation where you're basically spending a large amount of time fighting for a 'tiny' standing reward which is essentially there just so we can buy more stuff, which also needs farming resources for, to fight the same enemy (and any new versions that come out later), but faster....  As I've said before if DE wants us to use the operator and by association the quills they're trying to force on us they need to make it so we can get the bits that go with it....

 

• DE you appear to have balanced the game around a small subset of players that 'overplay' things by using 'meta squads' on specific locations while totally ignoring the main playerbase.    DE, I'm sure you have data available on how much focus is attained per day, remove the outliers who 'meta farm' and look at what the majority of players are earning per day, then balance the points around that.  Don't let this be another hema situation where you sit back and do nothing even though your player base can see an issue you can't or refuse to see.   Just imagine what a newbie is thinking when they see something that you've been marketing so heavily stuck behind a massive grindwall with, for a new player, no end in sight...it's bad enough for us 'veterans' who have decent gear so we can do this meta farming if we actually want to. 
• On average I get 20-30k standing during a day/night playing the game without any 'meta farming'.  It seems that is fairly similar to others who do the same, maybe balance around those sorts of figures rather than the meta farmers.

I'd also like to see a way to respec our points too because until we get a reasonable way to get focus standing adding our points into the wrong branch is a very permanent mistake that can't be corrected without excessive grind.

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by LSG501

[Coerrywuas]

You got my vote, sir! DE did not improve ANYTHING about the dull grind of Focus XP, I can't believe they were satisfied with their unfinished work at all. Focus exp should be gained to a much greater amount, while killing stuff. And get these lenses removed already.

[Ceryk]

30 minutes ago, Coerrywuas said:

You got my vote, sir! DE did not improve ANYTHING about the dull grind of Focus XP, I can't believe they were satisfied with their unfinished work at all. Focus exp should be gained to a much greater amount, while killing stuff. And get these lenses removed already.

Well, I think there's a couple of problems going on, but I think the main issues is that they don't really have a good way of taking stock of what Core and Casual players are doing like they can with the hardcores who are constantly making guides about how to maximize gains. I think it's just sort of assumed that this is the accepted way of doing things and they've left it at that and settled for the known variable. I highly doubt that they expected as much feed back as they've been getting on how bad trying to work on focus is because the community was complacent about it with Focus 1.0.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Ceryk

[Toran]

10 hours ago, ra9una said:

Right. I suppose I was underestimating the hurdle of getting lenses since even the best case scenario seems so hopelessly abject. But basically, best case scenario : the gain is completely out of balance with the amounts needed. And then, for most people : it's even worst...

 

One point many seem not to see:
While the huge amount of grind behind Focus suggests it's some kind of endgame content, it truly is not. For your general gameplay in Warframe Focus 2.0 is irrelevant. Even the best features of Focus 2.0 are just nice-to-have gimmicks, nothing else. Nothing in Focus 2.0 brings up a game changer, you probably wouldn't notice the difference between a veteran with a fully fledged Focus 2.0 tree and one that ignored Focus altogether. In that regard Focus 2.0 has little to offer in comparison to Focus 1.0. The best feature of Focus 2.0: no waiting time to activate passives.

As a Veteran, Focus 2.0 offers nothing that justifies a dedicated involvement. As a beginner, who actually could use some of the Focus 2.0 skills to improve his performance, I'd seriously be pissed off and disillusioned by the sheer amount of grind for Focus 2.0 on top of the core game.

Result: even with PoE and Focus 2.0, Fashion stays Endgame.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Toran

[Ceryk]

4 minutes ago, Toran said:

One point many seem not to see:
While the huge amount of grind behind Focus suggests it's some kind of endgame content, it truly is not. For your general gameplay in Warframe Focus 2.0 is irrelevant. Even the best features of Focus 2.0 are just nice-to-have gimmicks, nothing else. Nothing in Focus 2.0 brings up a game changer, you probably wouldn't notice the difference between a veteran with a fully fledged Focus 2.0 tree and one that totally ignored Focus altogether. In that regard Focus 2.0 has little to offer in comparison to Focus 1.0. The best feature of Focus 2.0: no waiting time to activate passives.

As a Veteran, Focus 2.0 offers nothing that justifies a dedicated involvement. As a beginner, who actually could use some of the Focus 2.0 skills to improve his performance, I'd seriously be pissed off and disillusioned by the sheer amount of grind for Focus 2.0 on top of the core game.

Result: even with PoE and Focus 2.0, Fashion stays Endgame.

And the point I don't think you see is that many of us do not agree with your opinion and see potential in the system but can't actually see what we can do with it because we can't work on it. They've also confirmed that they are going to be buffing things as needed. Maybe it will be useless, maybe it won't. But we can't find out.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Ceryk

[Toran]

Just now, Ceryk said:

And the point I don't think you see is that many of us do not agree with your opinion and see potential in the system but can't actually see what we can do with it because we can't work on it. They've also confirmed that they are going to be buffing things as needed.

Many, you say. I wonder how many, actually. You hear that argument on both camps (liking focus vs. disliking/indifferent to focus) and I can't recall any poll supporting any claim. Personally, I think it's almost a deadend however, and the time and money spent on Focus 2.0 and Operator better would have been invested in more exciting challenges and bosses.

Maybe I am wrong and a majority really is excited about Focus. The few guys I know personally prefer to play Destiny 2 at the moment while waiting for the next "big" update. Maybe we see more wonderboy stuff too, then.

[LSG501]

3 hours ago, Toran said:

 The best feature of Focus 2.0: no waiting time to activate passives.

 

Which come at a cost of losing the 'best features' of said passives in some cases... take Zenurik for example, it's lost the constant energy regen and we're now 'forced' into the operator and micromanagement if we want energy regen for a short period of time to kick in... that's not a passive, that's an active ability that needs triggering and to put it bluntly really ruins the flow of the game, especially if you're a frame that needs to use more than one ability at a time.  Yes it's quick, it's a literal pop in pop out job but honestly what is the point in that, we're not actually using the operator for anything and it's not different to the old pop out situation we had before, we can just trigger it earlier but then we need to keep triggering it.  It's not as noticeable on starmap but on plains this gets very tiresome because the main passive of extra energy from orbs is pretty useless between waypoints when there's no energy orbs.

 

[UjaAca]

I've been thinking about this lately. Totally agreed on removing Convergance orbs and increasing passive focus gained.
Since PoE is focused on new players as well as on the vets, Operators became quite important part early on, and with it, the focus. I don't see a problem if new players would to be able to reach the daily cap (with syndicates, focus, or anything in game, as long as they play it) though focus cap is by far the hardest one to cap, even for vets. And if I may add, reaching the cap is by doing cheesy boring mission. 

Getting focus is not a passive thing, if you want to reach the daily cap, you have to farm focus, nothing else. Simply removing Convergance orbs will do next to nothing in making it less of a grind (thought I have to admit it would bring a big quality of life improvement, just like how vacuum now vacuums Reactants, and hopefully one day it will vacuum Sentient cores too.)

Focus needs economy balance. It needs to be reachable - in general. My 2 cents on the matter:
(I know some people would be maxed by default with these changes, but is that a problem? They worked hard to do it.)

• Remove Convergance orbs.
• Make passive focus gained when lenses are equipped (5% for regular lenses, 7.5% greater, 10% eidolon) - that is around the half of how much orbs currently give.
• Reduce Focus point prices in general. (25k unlock, 50k min and 150k max per point. So in total you spend 2-5 days unlocking a skill, depending on number of skill points, installed lenses and number of used shards)
• Reduce cap back to 100k. (when using regular lenses)
• Reduce the cost of Way-bound passives to 500k + Brilliant Eidolon shard (so you need 3-5 days to get it)
• Reduce Brilliant Eidolon shard to 10k standing (Cap it 5 per day = 50k max extra standing.)
• Regular lenses gain you 5% affinity turned into focus. (Also, regular lenses stop adding focus once you reach the daily cap of 100k)
• Greater lenses gain you 7.5% affinity into focus (they continue adding focus until 125k)
• Eidolon lenses gain you 10% affinity into focus (they continue adding focus until 150k)
• With Eidolon lens and 5 Eidolon shard, you get 200k max standing daily. But with reduced costs of points and skills you can unlock something everyday.

Currently, with Brilliant eidolon shards you theoretically have no cap on a daily standing. Brilliant Eidolon shards giving 25k focus in this unreachable focus system looks like a perfect way to make people fight Eidolon all the time, but aren't Operator Arcanes unreachable already? There will probably be more. Also, we will have a bunch of new T4 Amp parts in the future, not to mention other future Amps in the existing tiers, so no need to bind Brilliant Eidolon shards so hard to the Focus. Make it exchangeable for The Quills standing.
System I suggested makes focus gain feel like sigil syndicates do. I think everybody likes that - play everyday, have fun and you will eventually reach it. Play certain type of missions to get even more standing. Search for a certain loot, and get even more standing. New player would reach the cap a bit harder than vets, but that wouldn't be the point of this system. Players would advance by playing and having fun, not solely by cheesing.

[Kalvorax]

17 minutes ago, UjaAca said:

I've been thinking about this lately. Totally agreed on removing Convergance orbs and increasing passive focus gained.
Since PoE is focused on new players as well as on the vets, Operators became quite important part early on, and with it, the focus. I don't see a problem if new players would to be able to reach the daily cap (with syndicates, focus, or anything in game, as long as they play it) though focus cap is by far the hardest one to cap, even for vets. And if I may add, reaching the cap is by doing cheesy boring mission. 

Getting focus is not a passive thing, if you want to reach the daily cap, you have to farm focus, nothing else. Simply removing Convergance orbs will do next to nothing in making it less of a grind (thought I have to admit it would bring a big quality of life improvement, just like how vacuum now vacuums Reactants, and hopefully one day it will vacuum Sentient cores too.)

Focus needs economy balance. It needs to be reachable - in general. My 2 cents on the matter:
(I know some people would be maxed by default with these changes, but is that a problem? They worked hard to do it.)

• Remove Convergance orbs.
• Make passive focus gained when lenses are equipped (5% for regular lenses, 7.5% greater, 10% eidolon) - that is around the half of how much orbs currently give.
• Reduce Focus point prices in general. (25k unlock, 50k min and 150k max per point. So in total you spend 2-5 days unlocking a skill, depending on number of skill points, installed lenses and number of used shards)
• Reduce cap back to 100k. (when using regular lenses)
• Reduce the cost of Way-bound passives to 500k + Brilliant Eidolon shard (so you need 3-5 days to get it)
• Reduce Brilliant Eidolon shard to 10k standing (Cap it 5 per day = 50k max extra standing.)
• Regular lenses gain you 5% affinity turned into focus. (Also, regular lenses stop adding focus once you reach the daily cap of 100k)
• Greater lenses gain you 7.5% affinity into focus (they continue adding focus until 125k)
• Eidolon lenses gain you 10% affinity into focus (they continue adding focus until 150k)
• With Eidolon lens and 5 Eidolon shard, you get 200k max standing daily. But with reduced costs of points and skills you can unlock something everyday.

Currently, with Brilliant eidolon shards you theoretically have no cap on a daily standing. Brilliant Eidolon shards giving 25k focus in this unreachable focus system looks like a perfect way to make people fight Eidolon all the time, but aren't Operator Arcanes unreachable already? There will probably be more. Also, we will have a bunch of new T4 Amp parts in the future, not to mention other future Amps in the existing tiers, so no need to bind Brilliant Eidolon shards so hard to the Focus. Make it exchangeable for The Quills standing.
System I suggested makes focus gain feel like sigil syndicates do. I think everybody likes that - play everyday, have fun and you will eventually reach it. Play certain type of missions to get even more standing. Search for a certain loot, and get even more standing. New player would reach the cap a bit harder than vets, but that wouldn't be the point of this system. Players would advance by playing and having fun, not solely by cheesing.

So you would lower costs overall, increase gains....but lower the cap based on lens type...wth? so you PUNISH those who stick to lower quality lens (because eidolon lenses are super rare compared to greaters and normals)...apart from that, i like your ideas.

[Mr.Holyroller]

TLDR. So tired of people crying about focus.

I have a full time job and it only takes me 2-3 hours to max all daily syndicate (quill and osteron includes), max focus, and do my sortie.

At MR24 that's really all there is for me to do in the game anyways so I'm content.

This game does better than any mmo I've played when it comes to daily activities.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Mr.Holyroller

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

TLDR. So tired of people crying about focus.

I have a full time job and it only takes me 2-3 hours to max all daily syndicate (quill and osteron includes), max focus, and do my sortie.

At MR24 that's really all there is for me to do in the game anyways so I'm content.

This game does better than any mmo I've played when it comes to daily activities.

So stop looking at threads about problems with Focus.

Your attempted rebuttal has also already been discussed in-depth; there is no debate over whether hitting the daily cap is feasible. A core complaint is that doing so requires a very specific method of play that largely isn't fun and many of DE's changes aim to discourage.

I also have a full time job, and I also have the resources to bounce off the cap every day should I choose to do so. But that's not what we're discussing here, and it's entirely beside the point. The fact that you have no other reason to play does not justify ignoring systems that very few players actually benefit from and many other players are are actually harmed by.

Better than most =/= to no room for improvement.

[DinendalMinyatur]

We shall see on tomorrow's devstream. Whether DE will take feedback seriously or will it be another Hema? Actually it would be worse than Hema since you can buy it with plat if you really want that weapon.

Edited November 2, 2017 by DinendalMinyatur
Typo

[racooperii]

Just now, DinendalMinyatur said:

We shall see on tomorrow's devstream. Whether DE will take feedback seriously or will it be another Hema? Actually it would be worse than Hema since you can buy it with play if you really want that weapon.

Im sure a good number of people are already borderline on this issue. The talk of making it less of a Gring, but throw a grind wall the equivalent of the rest of the game at us...

[UjaAca]

1 hour ago, Kalvorax said:

So you would lower costs overall, increase gains....but lower the cap based on lens type...wth? so you PUNISH those who stick to lower quality lens (because eidolon lenses are super rare compared to greaters and normals)...apart from that, i like your ideas.

In suggested system it is fairly easy to hit the daily cap with regular lens. Once you have all of new mods from the bounties, will you ever play them again - since Eidolon lens doesn't offer any improvement? Eidolon lens need to offer something more than the rest, so you have the reason to play bounties.

Daily syndicate standing cap increases with MR, so let the focus cap increase with the lens type installed. To be honest, the difference for lens cap I suggested is way smaller than the difference in syndicate cap between mr8 and mr24 player. You use only regular lens? Max your school in one month. You farmed hard to build or payed for greater lens? You'll do it in 25 days. You farmed (and was lucky) for Eidolon lens? You are done in 20 days.

Nobody is punished, just the people who payed, or the ones that farmed hard, get to do faster than the others. That is a fair Free-to-play model.

[Kalvorax]

1 minute ago, UjaAca said:

In suggested system it is fairly easy to hit the daily cap with regular lens. Once you have all of new mods from the bounties, will you ever play them again - since Eidolon lens doesn't offer any improvement? Eidolon lens need to offer something more than the rest, so you have the reason to play bounties.

Daily syndicate standing cap increases with MR, so let the focus cap increase with the lens type installed. To be honest, the difference for lens cap I suggested is way smaller than the difference in syndicate cap between mr8 and mr24 player. You use only regular lens? Max your school in one month. You farmed hard to build or payed for greater lens? You'll do it in 25 days. You farmed (and was lucky) for Eidolon lens? You are done in 20 days.

Nobody is punished, just the people who payed, or the ones that farmed hard, get to do faster than the others. That is a fair Free-to-play model.

ah ok, i see what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying it :)

[-Temp0-]

1 hour ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

TLDR. So tired of people crying about focus.

I have a full time job and it only takes me 2-3 hours to max all daily syndicate (quill and osteron includes), max focus, and do my sortie.

At MR24 that's really all there is for me to do in the game anyways so I'm content.

This game does better than any mmo I've played when it comes to daily activities.

And I can max focus+get 25k syndicate standing in 15 minutes with affinity booster.

It doesn't mean automatically that suddenly it doesn't suck just because someone somewhere doing the optimised bull**** in order to do so. I would like just to do missions that I want instead of repeating that one every day until I throw up eventually or it will get nerfed just likr any other farming spot before it.

I also have 100k oxium for example while others can barely farm 4-8 k because they don't camp in that one specific misison doing same boring **** over and over.

Edited November 2, 2017 by -Temp0-