Covert Lethality needs to go, or get reworked.

[Kimimoto]

13 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

 This is the discussion. Your dislike of the discussion doesn't change it into something else.

Can't have a discussion with a wall.

[Kimimoto]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Ivara is easily the least difficult frame to do this, and it doesn't take nearly as much skill to use her for these endgame runs as it does the other frames, but this is what she does.

Yeah and having CL makes it 100% better, having it just not instagib is th eonly problem I have with it. I have no problem with Ivara, just in combination with CL is it the most cheese possible for solo survival. It also isn't any fun and isn't impressive as you've said, so why even have it? Aslong as cheese like this is allowed DE will never see endless runs as a possible form of Endgame.

[DatDarkOne]

9 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Yeah and having CL makes it 100% better, having it just not instagib is th eonly problem I have with it. I have no problem with Ivara, just in combination with CL is it the most cheese possible for solo survival.

I'll tell you a little secret.  CL isn't needed at all for Ivara and a few other frames to instagib enemies at high levels.  All that is needed is to open them up to finishers like Sleep Arrow does.  Any good high damage melee or any of the hammers (which have boosted finisher damage) plus Finishing Touch will work just as well.  

edit: And guess what else.  Stealth Melee Finishers completely ignore armor and shields.  hehe

Edited December 20, 2017 by DatDarkOne
added content

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

20 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Aslong as cheese like this is allowed DE will never see endless runs as a possible form of Endgame.

It never is and never will be officially the end game.

The whole "endless run" thing is just epeen that people who have a lot of time do.

The enemies just get more and more bullet sponge as the level goes up and so called "mastery" of "endless run" is just finding ways to cheese the bullet sponge by mitigating the enemies' armor and avoiding getting hit through use of specific abilities. Not all frames and weapons can achieve this.

There is no real strategy or complexity to the whole thing.

You just need the right frames, right weapons and right mods and that's it.

The only "skill" there really is is the ability to press the buttons in a sequence at the right time so the cheese can keep going.

There's no official reward for it either.

It's been 4 years already.

Defense has always been there.

Survival has also been out for a while.

"Endless runs" have also always been around since Defense was there.

However, neither has ever been officially rewarded for playing into the hours other than bragging rights. Nobody gets a special reward in the game for playing 10 hours straight doing the same thing over and over.

That will also mean people without that much time to play due to work and other real life obligations will never ever be able to go into this "end game".

This "Endless run is end game" is not official. It's a player-made concept so balancing around a player-made concept is not the wisest thing to do.

The current official end game is really just focus, raids, derelicts and sorties. 

The whole "Endless run" thing is a concept that people introduced back in the days when all we had were defense missions and other missions that do not raise enemy levels by much.

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[DatDarkOne]

11 minutes ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

This "Endless run is end game" is not official. It's a player-made concept so balancing around a player-made concept is not the wisest thing to do.

The current official end game is really just focus, raids, derelicts and sorties.

A very wise Tenno has spoken.  

[Kimimoto]

2 minutes ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

There's no official reward for it either.

There was until old void switched to Relics, people liked the endless void.

 

13 minutes ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

The current official end game is really just focus, raids and sorties.

Then there is no "endgame" since these are too easy to be endgame for a lot of people. Focus is literally just casual grind, that can't be considered endgame.

 

15 minutes ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

That will also mean people without that much time to play due to work and other real life obligations will never ever be able to go into this "end game".

Alright, it shouldn't be the only form of endgame. Should these people ruin it for the people who do have the time? That's like saying because casual players can't raid Mythic in WoW, no more Mythic.

[motorfirebox]

14 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Never mind, it's clear you don't want to discuss.

Edited December 20, 2017 by motorfirebox

[Hixlysss]

16 hours ago, Arniox said:

Can new people stop fu¢king crying about power and damage and stuff like this? 

You people are the reason why this game is loosing its interest to me. I have always loved the feeling of being a God in this game, and you sh¡ts keep ruining it for everyone. 

Covet lethality is fine as is because of two reasons. 

1- it only works on daggers and daggers are usually sh¡t.

2- it only works on finishers and you can't open enemies up to finishers with everything. You need certain frames and that's it. Only certain frames can do it, and if you want to use a weapon to do it, we'll you're no longer using a dagger... 

"new people" Really dude? As for the rest of your post, it's NOT fine because its 100% lethality. That's it. Not arguing the rest of it, but because it's 100% "enemy is dead" it's a problem. Take that off and the mod is fine. "Oh, only certain frames can use it!" That list keeps growing every day as more and more frames get ways to open enemies up to finishers. It. Is. A. Problem.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

I always liked the 100% lethality aspect, because it's a dagger. I don't even use daggers, but it just always made sense to me. That's all you're doing with a dagger. I rather use a melee weapon that is 100% effective in regular melee combat and maybe only does 75-90% lethal finisher damage to higher level enemies. The enemy is still open to finishers so it will reach 100% lethality at some point. 

It just seems like some people are too focused on the number instead of what is actually happening. It's a stealth finisher, so it will kill them anyways. Doesn't matter if it takes 1,2, or 3 attacks. They're gonna die at some point because of the increased damage. If anything is the "problem" it would be the frames that can easily pull off finishers. That is the cheese, not a mod that makes daggers work like daggers. 

I also think the real cheese is the fact that you need to cheese in endless runs. The enemies don't get smarter. They just take longer to kill and they do 100% lethal damage, so you find ways to cheese both aspects. It's ALL CHEESE at the highest levels. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by BL4CKN0ISE

[Arniox]

3 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

"new people" Really dude? As for the rest of your post, it's NOT fine because its 100% lethality. That's it. Not arguing the rest of it, but because it's 100% "enemy is dead" it's a problem. Take that off and the mod is fine. "Oh, only certain frames can use it!" That list keeps growing every day as more and more frames get ways to open enemies up to finishers. It. Is. A. Problem.

Not really. I personally think it's completely fine. You just don't want utter power. 

Sorry for assuming you're new then. If you've been around for long enough, you would have seen that covert lethality isn't even used that much to be completely honest. 

I'm not sure why you're complaining about because I don't even use it that much. Daggers are just such a pain anyways that I don't find using them worth it to my gameplay. I much prefer polarms or staves. 

Cover lethality is extremely niche. It only works on daggers, only on an enemy open to finishers, and it bugs out quite a lot, especially on corpus robots. 

[Hixlysss]

55 minutes ago, Arniox said:

Not really. I personally think it's completely fine. You just don't want utter power. 

Sorry for assuming you're new then. If you've been around for long enough, you would have seen that covert lethality isn't even used that much to be completely honest. 

I'm not sure why you're complaining about because I don't even use it that much. Daggers are just such a pain anyways that I don't find using them worth it to my gameplay. I much prefer polarms or staves. 

Cover lethality is extremely niche. It only works on daggers, only on an enemy open to finishers, and it bugs out quite a lot, especially on corpus robots. 

Yes, people avoid CL because it has issues, namely it makes the game too easy. I want to use daggers, but every time I even think about doing it, right there is CL. An efficient build would have CL and pair it with a finisher frame and you're done, think lethal teleport ash just...ugh.

Oh, just got a riven for a dagger! But the riven is worthless because CL which kills anything. Oh sure it doesn't work on bosses, it just works on 90% of the rest of the game. Sure, people don't really use daggers and CL, you don't see it everywhere, that's because I believe the playerbase is ignoring daggers and CL as a whole because of how broken CL is, or at the very least because of how bleh daggers are without CL. Perhaps this means there is a problem with daggers at base that needs to be addressed? Or perhaps just a symptom of a larger issue(Armor scaling) that should be addressed, it's possible how ever DE takes it's sweet time doing anything and for now a quick and simple fix would be to just remove the 100% lethality from CL and make it apply to dual daggers as well.

If it's such a niche mod and so...unworthy of notice, why do you care if the mod gets changed?

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

I want to use daggers, but every time I even think about doing it, right there is CL. An efficient build would have CL and pair it with a finisher frame and you're done, think lethal teleport ash just...ugh.

What you just described is an issue with you.  Not the mod.  I say this not to be mean but you don't have to use CL or my other mod you don't like for that matter.  

You are staying that because it exists you have to use it when that isn't the case.  Hell, if i give you a bottle enema, will you use it because it exists.  I hope not.  

  It would be incredibly selfish of you to deprive others of a choice because you don't like it.  

[Hixlysss]

10 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

What you just described is an issue with you.  Not the mod.  I say this not to be mean but you don't have to use CL or my other mod you don't like for that matter.  

You are staying that because it exists you have to use it when that isn't the case.  Hell, if i give you a bottle enema, will you use it because it exists.  I hope not.  

  It would be incredibly selfish of you to deprive others of a choice because you don't like it.  

Not even just me, in case you hadn't noticed a lot of people actively avoid using daggers though the reason is never explained. I've run into quite a lot of people who believe CL to be...in general, a bad mod. Any mod that says "Haha, you die because dev powers" is...rather lame. I'd point out that the devs at one point said "finishers will never be 100% lethal" but they seem to have changed their minds because CL exists...but I digress.

It's a bad mod. Simple as that. Why use ANY other mod on the weapon when all you have to do is a finisher and the enemy is guaranteed to be dead? It's not about "You use it cause it exists" It's because it out classes everything else because of how it works. Besides, as Arniox pointed out...not a lot of people even use daggers. It's a niche mod. Why do you care if I demand it be changed because from my view point it's a blight upon mod design?

[Arniox]

45 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

, or at the very least because of how bleh daggers are without CL. Perhaps this means there is a problem with daggers at base that needs to be addressed

Daggers are low range, slow, low damage and so on. CL helps them. Also, as a person above said, this issue is bound to you and a few others but you shouldn't deprive others of choice. 

You don't have to use it if you don't want to. Alot of my dagger builds don't use CL because I don't like finishers and I also don't like spin to win. So I play by just using the combos. I also have a riven for my rakta dark dagger and I use it. 

You don't have to use it, and don't get angry at others using it because some like it, some don't, some don't care at all. 

I don't want it changed because I like the option of easiness. It's a nice option to have and on more than one occasion, I've taken that option. Besides, this mod is also single target. Not a nuke, not a range damage dealer. Just a single target... 

[DatDarkOne]

26 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

 Why do you care if I demand it be changed because from my view point it's a blight upon mod design?

Simple.  Because your demand would be removing a choice from me.  Not that I use CL or daggers, but I still have that choice.  Having a choice is power.  Your demand would effect me way more than you not getting your demand.  Why, because you have a choice not to use it.  Should you get your way none of us would even have that.

[phoenix1992]

Break it up lads, I am seeing a lot of emotions flying in and out here, and very few facts.

Fact number 1 - CL is busted combination mod.
Fact number 2 - Melee is living and dying based on busted combination mods.
Fact number 3 - If you have Ivara + Dagger + CL + all the other primed and corrupted mods you need + you play rather limited maps in which certain enemies won't spawn, means nothing if you are mediocre player.

PS: Legit how many of you have gone over a hour in a survival without starting to loose your sanity regardless of Ivara and chill or not?

Edited December 20, 2017 by phoenix1992

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Fact number 2 - Melee is living and dying based on STYLE.  You must melee with flair or not at all.  

Corrected that slightly for you fellow Tenno.  :D

 

4 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Fact number 3 - If you have Ivara, nothing else matters.  

I just couldn't resist on this one.  hehe.  

[phoenix1992]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

I am an stupid rogue 

Ivara swinging melee is like Ember trying to shoot people. 

[DatDarkOne]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Ivara swinging melee is like Ember trying to shoot people. 

But I do both so well.  :D  

[phoenix1992]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

But I do both so well.  :D  

I mean...

You can, but it is not as fun.


Back on topic.

I am waiting to hear and see how many people actually use the "big bad scary" combo efficiently.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am waiting to hear and see how many people actually use the "big bad scary" combo efficiently.

I can, but I just don't care for single daggers much.  I can make them work well even without CL, but I just don't care for their aesthetic very much. 

I prefer taking things that I actually like to use and make them work in ways previously not thought of.  I just don't believe in following the established meta when I can make my own.  :D 

[phoenix1992]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

I can, but I just don't care for single daggers much.  I can make them work well even without CL, but I just don't care for their aesthetic very much. 

I prefer taking things that I actually like to use and make them work in ways previously not thought of.  I just don't believe in following the established meta when I can make my own.  :D 

And I still call the combo a bad Darvo Deal.

It works well as long as you are in single player, there are no special effects and so on.

Try to pull out a CL on bunch of agitated Infestation enemies to see what I am talking about =.=

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Try to pull out a CL on bunch of agitated Infestation enemies to see what I am talking about =.=

This has been one of the main arguments against the proposed change.  CL without any way to make enemies vulnerable is useless.  CL by itself can't kill anything. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by DatDarkOne

[phoenix1992]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This has been one of the main arguments against the proposed change.  CL without any way to make enemies vulnerable is useless.  CL by itself can't kill anything.  But yet some want to remove or limit a mod that already limits itself.  :D

Or bursa units.
Or swarm of Nullifiers.
Or Nox.
Or Eximus.
Or Scrumalus crap


For god's sake the only reason CL is used in "end game" is because it is attached to invisibility frame, that can also open up finishers. Enemy scaling is crap, yet in the same time if anyone goes over level 100 for no other reason outside of e peen, they are asking for it.


Edit : Secondary clarification for more people that have never done the build : Another element is that the enemies are simply not agitated. They don't shoot, spawn AoE or any other crap if they have not seen you or your team since they spawned. And even with that Survival is not the best place for CL - Deff is due to the nature of the format (no time limits on deff) and because enemies follow a pattern in deff. They don't in survival =.=

Edited December 21, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Kimimoto]

7 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Never mind, it's clear you don't want to discuss.

Quite the opposite. Bringing up counter points and not going off on some twisted tangent. It's not because I disagreed with the person, they just won't engage and keep spewing their agenda.