Fixing weapons that can Self damage

[Fractalisomega]

Currently there are quite a few weapons in the game that deal damage to their user.... but they do little more than knock down enemies at high levels...

I'd like to propose that these weapons gain a passive ability that ignores 20-30% (heck maybe more) of both the enemy's Shield and Armor.

In high levels it is annoying to bring a maxed Prisma Angstrum and deal more damage to yourself than your enemies.... just call it "shellshocked" or something like that.

Last time I checked explosions worked pretty damn good against shields and armor IRL.

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OP update....

Self damage is terrible.... but it's worse because you take the full brunt of your upgraded and modded weapon....

In addition to the suggestions above.... why not make it so that you only take the base damage of the weapon as self damage..... This way you can't accidentally kill yourself with a dual or triple status build, or a raw damage build.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Fractalisomega

[Spartan336]

Hey everyone. I've got a great idea! Let's buff the Tonkor!

Yay!!!

*Buffs the Tonkor and accidentally destroys the planet with a single shot.*

EDIT: I should clarify. I'm all for giving weapons like the Angstrum a little boost, but this would make explosive weapons so OP it would unbalance everything (Because Warframe is TOTALLY balanced.) Considering that armor is pretty much the biggest thing you have to go through to kill something. Perhaps a different kind of buff is in order, and nothing for the Tonkor. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Spartan336

[Fractalisomega]

13 minutes ago, Spartan336 said:

I should clarify. I'm all for giving weapons like the Angstrum a little boost, but this would make explosive weapons so OP it would unbalance everything (Because Warframe is TOTALLY balanced.) Considering that armor is pretty much the biggest thing you have to go through to kill something. Perhaps a different kind of buff is in order, and nothing for the Tonkor. 

I never mentioned the Tonkor....

And I never said it would strip armor like Corrosive nor would it stack.... it would just ignore part of the value...

Say you have a lvl 100 Grineer.... using a weapon that can cause self damage you'd deal damage to it as if you were using a regular weapon against a lvl 70 or 80 Grineer (though it would still have the HP pool of a lvl 100 enemy)

If the Armor/shield ignore value is too high I'm sure DE would cut it down to a fair amount.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Fractalisomega

[BladeGrip]

I still fail to understand what's so great about explosive weapons that a risk of killing self needs to be added. The same mass-killing effect without the risk can easily be achieved with Plasmor or any long melee with memeing strike, which I sadly don't have.

[Fractalisomega]

Just now, BladeGrip said:

I still fail to understand what's so great about explosive weapons that a risk of killing self needs to be added. The same mass-killing effect without the risk can easily be achieved with Plasmor or any long melee with memeing strike, which I sadly don't have.

*facepalm*

I never said that self damage needs to be added......

I said that weapons that ALREADY HAVE self damage need to be buffed 

[Xaelroa]

13 minutes ago, Fractalisomega said:

I never mentioned the Tonkor....

And I never said it would strip armor like Corrosive nor would it stack.... it would just ignore part of the value...

Say you have a lvl 100 Grineer.... using a weapon that can cause self damage you'd deal damage to it as if you were using a regular weapon against a lvl 70 or 80 Grineer (though it would still have the HP pool of a lvl 100 enemy)

If the Armor/shield ignore value is too high I'm sure DE would cut it down to a fair amount.

That would make everyone start insisting on using explosive weapons that cause self damage because they would literally ignore a resistance. Part of why shield disruption/corrosive projection are considered "necessary" these days is because they come as close to "ignoring" armor/shields as possible without using finisher damage/fatal teleport/covert lethality right now.

[Xaero]

The problem is in difference between our high damage/low ehp and enemies' low damage/high ehp. IMO all the numbers should be rebalanced. Or at least damage dealt to allies or yourself should be toned down a lot.

[MillbrookWest]

35 minutes ago, Fractalisomega said:

Last time I checked explosions worked pretty damn good against shields and armor IRL.

Can't say i've ever heard of sci-fi shields irl.

But as i recall, there was that one Challenger 2 tank that survived over 14 direct hits from RPG rockets...

Then there was that other one that survived over 70... soo, armor irl tends to do its job against blast/explosions.

[BladeGrip]

7 minutes ago, Fractalisomega said:

*facepalm*

I never said that self damage needs to be added......

I said that weapons that ALREADY HAVE self damage need to be buffed 

You missed my point. Let me rephrase.

What's so great about explosive weapons that they all must have self damage, which triggers a lot of people to make "fixing self damage" threads? What's the point of self damage? Risk (killing yourself) vs Reward (mass-killing ability)? There are other weapons which can achieve the reward part without having the risk.

Alright, I admit that my own point missed your initial point, so let's call it even.

Your proposal is in essence adding Shield Distruption/Corrosive Projection passive into them. Depending on how it is calculated in game, it will either be negligible or borderline OP. Mainly about how it interacts with the respective aura mods.

[Fractalisomega]

3 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

Can't say i've ever heard of sci-fi shields irl.

But as i recall, there was that one Challenger 2 tank that survived over 14 direct hits from RPG rockets...

Then there was that other one that survived over 70... soo, armor irl tends to do its job against blast/explosions.

Yeah I'm pretty sure a Tusk Ogma would be ok tanking a few blast hits but when it comes to the soldiers, armor may protect against light bullet fire but for explosions pretty much all of the blast energy is transferred through the armor and into the body wreaking havoc on internal organs. 

With enough force there can be some fatal results... blindness, loss of consciousness, even death from high enough G-forces.

[Fractalisomega]

13 minutes ago, BladeGrip said:

Your proposal is in essence adding Shield Distruption/Corrosive Projection passive into them. Depending on how it is calculated in game, it will either be negligible or borderline OP. Mainly about how it interacts with the respective aura mods.

Currently with the nerfs that have been dealt out there isn't much point in crafting them when you will likely kill yourself and break your shields.... which is why I'd like for them to be improved... to make them WORTH the risk. There are lots of good AOE weapons that outclass similar self-damage weapons without the drawbacks. 

Giving them this buff would make them worth it... instead of settling for a good reliable weapon you could decide to play a little risky.... if things work out well you could do even better but if you can't aim or position yourself well then you could end up hurting yourself.

Aura interaction is something that DE will have to take a look at.... some clever math in the code should keep it from getting out of hand and keep it from being rendered pointless (to add those mods).

[40PE]

I'm with the OP.

I would love to use Tonkor and my Angstrum and the rest of such weapon. I don't care about high lvl game that is still unbalanced as hell for years IMHO. I just dont touch anything that is above lvl50-60 anymore. Waste of time shooting the enemy over and over and feel that my weapons are useless againts them, as OP said, you could kill a tank with a few rockets in RL but I spend half a mag from Soma P. on a high lvl elite? Just silly.

I want my tonkor and angstrum back though. So yes, please support such topics people, the more diversity we got in the weapons the more fun this game will be (again).

[Ernestasx]

I agree with the op. To be honest, i think all the self damaging weapons should do only 20% damage to you, not the full brunt. Or maybe remove the self damage completely? Not like these weapons are so useful that they could destroy everything because they are outclassed by many weapons.

I hope mods will see this.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just add damage gating on self-damage and let people actually use the damn things without one-shotting themselves.

Edited October 31, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[40PE]

On 10/31/2017 at 3:51 PM, Ernestasx said:

I agree with the op. To be honest, i think all the self damaging weapons should do only 20% damage to you, not the full brunt. Or maybe remove the self damage completely? Not like these weapons are so useful that they could destroy everything because they are outclassed by many weapons.

I hope mods will see this.

Either I'm getting old and my brain goes crazy but I completely remember I posted a reply to this last week. Or D.E. sterted deleting comments again?

I was saying that even with 20% self damage I would one shot kill myself with my angstrum.

Also the whole illogical system is:

-Enemy cannot self damage themselves
-Your own weapons cannot damage other team mates
-But you can self damage yourself with your own weapons

This logic need to be fixed.
No team and self damage at all please, D.E. fix this! This is the easiest part of your job, the easiest modification in the game. Please do this! Thank you!

[Ernestasx]

On 2017-11-02 at 10:43 AM, 40PE said:

Either I'm getting old and my brain goes crazy but I completely remember I posted a reply to this last week. Or D.E. sterted deleting comments again?

I was saying that even with 20% self damage I would one shot kill myself with my angstrum.

Also the whole illogical system is:

-Enemy cannot self damage themselves
-Your own weapons cannot damage other team mates
-But you can self damage yourself with your own weapons

This logic need to be fixed.
No team and self damage at all please, D.E. fix this! This is the easiest part of your job, the easiest modification in the game. Please do this! Thank you!

Agreed, i want to at least be able to use my fully modded, double forma'ed tonkor so i could have at least some weapon of mass damage to numerous mobs at once.

[Fractalisomega]

OP update

[FreeWilliam]

Seems like people kind of wandered off in a few directions here.

Mind if I simplify things and point out that what we're talking about is the risk/reward inherent in all existing self-damage weapons.  

A weapon that can damage you creates a risk, so if the weapon damages you AND can be replaced completely by a weapon that doesn't, then that weapon ends up only used by those who love it.  It also uses up a slot that another weapon could be in, which should be factored in.

I personally think DE nailed the Lenz...when a weapon has unique/quirky features it can overcome risk/reward issues.  I think they're improving their technique.

Another thing that might be nice would be to not have any reasonable use of a self-damage weapon insta-kill you.  Just...knock us down and punish us a bit...it feels like self-damage is binary.  Either your weapon is useless or your self damage instakills you.  Maybe there's something in the middle that would work better?

Not that I don't giggle every time I have to rez somebody who died all on their lonesome and see them holding the suicide jet bow. :)

(Also: Does whoever created those weapons get credit for all those Tenno kills?  Is it an invention of Captain Vor that he saturated the market with to get us to kill ourselves for him?)

[Fractalisomega]

22 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

Seems like people kind of wandered off in a few directions here.

Mind if I simplify things and point out that what we're talking about is the risk/reward inherent in all existing self-damage weapons.  

A weapon that can damage you creates a risk, so if the weapon damages you AND can be replaced completely by a weapon that doesn't, then that weapon ends up only used by those who love it.  It also uses up a slot that another weapon could be in, which should be factored in.

I personally think DE nailed the Lenz...when a weapon has unique/quirky features it can overcome risk/reward issues.  I think they're improving their technique.

Another thing that might be nice would be to not have any reasonable use of a self-damage weapon insta-kill you.  Just...knock us down and punish us a bit...it feels like self-damage is binary.  Either your weapon is useless or your self damage instakills you.  Maybe there's something in the middle that would work better?

Not that I don't giggle every time I have to rez somebody who died all on their lonesome and see them holding the suicide jet bow. :)

(Also: Does whoever created those weapons get credit for all those Tenno kills?  Is it an invention of Captain Vor that he saturated the market with to get us to kill ourselves for him?)

The Lenz is damn good... mostly for the crit, status rate, and the fact that it's a bow... a weapon that you prepare to fire and can hold till the right moment. Lots of the other self damage weapons (Ogris, Angstrum, Tonkor, Javlok, etc etc) take control out of the player's hands which for self damage weapons is bad.

The Penta is good since you have control over when the BOOM goes off... Just like the Lenz...

Edited November 7, 2017 by Fractalisomega

[FreeWilliam]

20 minutes ago, Fractalisomega said:

The Lenz is damn good... mostly for the crit, status rate, and the fact that it's a bow... a weapon that you prepare to fire and can hold till the right moment. Lots of the other self damage weapons (Ogris, Angstrum, Tonkor, Javlok, etc etc) take control out of the player's hands which for self damage weapons is bad.

Yup, that's the same impression I have.  I think DE's improving their technique quite a bit, but some older weapons are lagging a bit (pretty sure the Stug needs a bit of love, right?)

 

[Fractalisomega]

Just now, FreeWilliam said:

Yup, that's the same impression I have.  I think DE's improving their technique quite a bit, but some older weapons are lagging a bit (pretty sure the Stug needs a bit of love, right?)

 

I find the Stug to be ok.... with a base corrosion status you can mod on Magnetic and Gas/toxic/fire to make a nice status heavy gun with good AoE.... (I typically run Inaros so the HP loss is minimal for me). It's not perfect but it's still fun and can't OHKO yourself.

The biggest problem for the Stug is that the game doesn't show the Stats needed to make choices when modding.... 

[Nox_Terminus]

High Explosives are not meant for use against heavy armor, quite the contrary. High Explosives are meant to cause damage to general structures (i.e. houses, non-fortified buildings etc) the concussive force of the explosions ARE quite effective against people within said buildings, but only if the thickness of the wall isnt enough to absorb the force of it. In the case of tanks early on they had simple cast armor, or RHA plates which were bolted or rarely welded on. This without any spall liner behind them. Upon impact the force of the explosion would cause the armor to bow and bend inward, which could cause deadly pieces of shrapnel, or in the case of bolted on armor, pieces of bolts to fly around the fighting compartment, which would badly harm the crew. As time went on the introduction of spall liners and multiple layers of differing armor materials led to superior protection. At this point tank crewman are more likely to suffer concussions from explosions outside of their vehicle than an actually serious or deadly injury. The exception is when an extremely large amount of explosives is detonated underneath the vehicle, as this is where the armor is generally the thinnest.

TLDR - If High Explosives were as unbelievably effective as you say, modern tanks wouldn't bother to fire Armor-Penetrating rounds.

Now onto the subject of self-damage weapons. I believe self-damage should simply be removed, there is no point in punishing player enjoyment by making a weapon virtually useless in the majority of content. What I mean is that in Warframe most combat takes place at middling to close range, meaning that with a weapon like the Ogris there is a significant chance you will blow yourself up, and despite the high raw damage values of the Ogris it doesn't scale all that well. Frankly most of the self-damage weapons are in need of a buff, and in some cases, significant buffs.