The endless "Void" left by the Relic System

[Pizzarugi]

I remember the good old days of grinding void survival keys to get Loki Prime chassis. The grind got to the point that I even invited a friend to join me in the endeavor to see how long we can push this one key. We managed to go an entire 2 hours in the void, I played Limbo and he played Volt. This was when Limbo's rift had synergy with Volt's electric shield, allowing you to kill enemies between dimensions. This was also during the time when Synoid Gammacor was actually a good weapon before it got nuked from orbit by having its ammo economy totally destroyed. I'm still very upset about that to this day!

The one thing I miss the most is that there's little incentive to go to the void in general. Sure you have to go there in order to find argon crystals and maybe farm Corrupted Vor if you don't have the poison/status event mods, but that's it. I love being in the void. I love the aesthetic of the Orokin architecture and technology that has been frozen in time, I love the music, and I love the enemy diversity. Now there's not much reason to go back.

I would love to see at least kuva siphon/flood missions pop up there or more void fissures spawning there.

[Xzorn]

13 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

They do! I very much enjoy the current Endless Fissure rewards! For Veterans who don't have much of a need for Resources/XP/Credits/Relics/Traces there's not that much of an incentive to keep going. Not to mention those scaling rewards are only in Fissures!

 

Not to mention the primary purpose of Fissures falls short.

Their intended purpose stated by DE was to diversify our play options and where we play but Fissures only have very select tile sets to choose from. Axi Survival is only Selkie, Palus, Nimus or MOT. Can't do Europa, Earth or other tiles unless you select a Fissure type you might not want. Hell, there is no Uranus or Kuva Fortress Survival Fissure at all.

I bought up an idea while back that Fissures should be retroactive. Lith has it's set tiles within it's 1-10 level range but Meso incorporates both Lith and Meso's tileset range while scaling the enemies appropriately. This continues to Axi which would have access to the entire starmap for mission types and scale those enemies to the appropriate lvl 40+ range. This keeps the progression state of Fissures and the star map but gives players in the upper Tiers far more diversity in where they go and what they fight.

[ikkabotz]

4 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I remember the good old days of grinding void survival keys to get Loki Prime chassis. The grind got to the point that I even invited a friend to join me in the endeavor to see how long we can push this one key. We managed to go an entire 2 hours in the void, I played Limbo and he played Volt. This was when Limbo's rift had synergy with Volt's electric shield, allowing you to kill enemies between dimensions. This was also during the time when Synoid Gammacor was actually a good weapon before it got nuked from orbit by having its ammo economy totally destroyed. I'm still very upset about that to this day!

The one thing I miss the most is that there's little incentive to go to the void in general. Sure you have to go there in order to find argon crystals and maybe farm Corrupted Vor if you don't have the poison/status event mods, but that's it. I love being in the void. I love the aesthetic of the Orokin architecture and technology that has been frozen in time, I love the music, and I love the enemy diversity. Now there's not much reason to go back.

I would love to see at least kuva siphon/flood missions pop up there or more void fissures spawning there.

Yup, now there's chain of harrow on MOT to compound the issue more so often there are players who want out within ten minutes. From a endless perspective the game plays nowhere near as good as before. 

It's so unfortunate too, because that's where I often had the most fun feeling the flow of the game and met people to play with. .From what I can tell the core issue of contention comes from one camp nostalgic in the quality of gameplay, how it felt to be played and the other group remembers how obnoxious the grind was. .honestly though, since the change I think there's no arena to play Warframe in to the best of its own quality

. .It's really unfortunate, all I can tell players is there used to be a time where Warframe felt like it had depth in a game, each subsequent layer would expose a new level of rhythm and tempo to the gameplay and your interactions with your teammates. That quality of life change has moved in a sub par model. I miss it all the time when I'm playing and feel like when I play I do in some denial about it.

From personal experience I lost a lot of people to play with after relic implementation. Most of those came from the awkward format to play in, no easy pairing "radiant" charging relics, more grind, more exclusive pairing of squads. .but putting relics aside, the real issue is nothing in warframe plays like endless survival and endless defense once did and it was the best expression of gameplay Warframe has had.

Not looking at relic system to gain prime parts, but in terms of gameplay. .I don't enjoy hunting down ten pieces over and over on an Easter egg hunt. .It's a abhorrent style of play. .I don't even care if relics remain, but at least give the atmosphere that once existed in the game, the feeling of gameplay. .it needs to come back desperately. .this is going to be difficult, enemy scaling is not the same and there's abruptly being one shot. .pathing is not the same so they come in mindless droves single file. .I'm afraid we're left with a shell of what once existed and it makes no sense at all

Edited November 6, 2017 by komoriblues

[(XBOX)dude1286]

Give us a T3 Survival in the Void that rewards 50 x rotation number Endo, and Kuva Survival that does the same for Kuva. The rotation at 5 hours would give 3000, not including the lower rotation rewards and what the player gained by drops. Would give a great incentive to stay longer than you would think you could.

[White_Matter]

On 05.11.2017 at 10:18 AM, Kimimoto said:

When the SotR update was introduced the Tower Key system was reworked into the current Relic system, which for the most part has be extremely good! The one glaring issue with SotR, and what is currently plaguing the game for me and my friends is the death of Endless Void missions. Endless Void missions gave you incentive to push your limits, min max your frame/weapons, and get together with friends to make an organized squad. Such little content gave SO much purpose to the game and the loss of that is excruciating!

Completely agreed mate. Finding a squad and going to a tower was a blast even if at times it was frustrating(when you ran like 60 minutes and didn't get the loot you wanted). But the fact that you would get a prime part as the mission went on, gave you the incentive to keep going.

It was fun, it was challenging.

Now fissures are just some boring grindfest that doesn't feel different than any regular mission.

The whole point of void was that it was kinda exclusive and was only accessible by keys. Now it is just another node that you never visit.

They completely killed it.

 

DE needs to urgently design a new endgame content similar to old tower key system where veterans can challenge themselves instead of doing a bounty and get a stance mod as a reward which they already have 1000 copies of.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

Void system was great.  don't know who thought it was a great idea.  the void is somewhere i am never tired of seeing after 4 years. it used to be one of the busiest areas, not its just a desert with a pretty decor.

[DeltaPangaea]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)dude1286 said:

Give us a T3 Survival in the Void that rewards 50 x rotation number Endo, and Kuva Survival that does the same for Kuva. The rotation at 5 hours would give 3000, not including the lower rotation rewards and what the player gained by drops. Would give a great incentive to stay longer than you would think you could.

>5 Hours

>5

U wot m8

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Void 2.0 by far is the worst update in my warframe memory (being playing for the last two years) exactly because they killed off endless void. Nobody's gonna defend old void as being perfect, but current void is a parcour simulator with forced manual pickups and low-lvl obstacles in the way. It's ridiculous. It also completely destroyed the effort-reward system of the game as well as any reason to minmax the gear in general.

Edited November 6, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DeltaPangaea]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Void 2.0 by far is the worst update in my warframe memory (being playing for the last two years) exactly because they killed off endless void. Nobody's gonna defend old void as being perfect, but current void is a parcour simulator with forced manual pickups and low-lvl obstacles in the way. It's ridiculous.

Now see, I'm trying to understand this point of view.

What was there in the old void that isn't present in the new Fissures, that wasn't actually just a massive pain in the arse?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Now see, I'm trying to understand this point of view.

What was there in the old void that isn't present in the new Fissures, that wasn't actually just a massive pain in the arse?

 Incentive to stay longer meant that you had a reason to build up your gear collection. Max out mods, forma weapons and frames. Current void allows you to go in half-naked with a maiming strike and a YOLO-sign over your private parts. Or even without the maiming strike - to just leech off your companions. You'll get the same rewards as everyone else no matter what you do and your team can't really do anything about it cause the missions are incredibly short.

[DeltaPangaea]

19 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Incentive to stay longer meant that you had a reason to build up your gear collection. Max out mods, forma weapons and frames. Current void allows you to go in half-naked with a maiming strike and a YOLO-sign over your private parts. Or even without the maiming strike - to just leech off your companions. You'll get the same rewards as everyone else no matter what you do and your team can't really do anything about it cause the missions are incredibly short.

Except... there is incentive to stay longer. For every 5 waves you stay, you get free upgraded relics.

How is that worse than 'Avoiding spending a resource to do this again'?

[MuscleBeach]

The reason there's no incentive to stay anymore is that you have to radiant your relics to get the rewards you want, statistically. Before, you would use your key and hope for the best but also stay however long you could handle/had time for. Now you use a relic every 5 minutes AND you have to radiant them. This interrupts staying in a survival for 60 minutes. We stayed for the rewards but now there are interruptions (needing to radiant a relic once enough traces are gathered or running out of relics of the type you need) that make you want to leave after just a few waves. 1 hour survival on Axi is 12 relics. That alone will stop most people on how long they will be staying and staying for traces doesn't feel rewarding.

The current relic system is good too but I think they should reintroduce the void key system with the same idea as before. Maybe just as special missions/events/temporary unvaulting of primes, that way we don't have to undo the current system but can have the perks of the void key system without the constant need to do it. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Except... there is incentive to stay longer. For every 5 waves you stay, you get free upgraded relics.

How is that worse than 'Avoiding spending a resource to do this again'?

Random upgraded relic? Well that changes everything! Not like you can get those in every single mission anyway. 

 Relics are a horrid reward. First of all, it's not a reward at all. It's just a lottery ticket. It doesn't feel rewarding and in the mission itself you have no idea what you actually got. Relics are hollow and soulless, and have no weight as a reward. You just getting another axi N-whatever a billion times over. They don't feel like anything.

 Frankly, tower keys weren't much better. But when you got a T3 Mobile Defence you knew it's Trinity Prime Systems, and if you get a full set you could sell it for up to 200plat. There was value in those tower keys and the number of those keys was limited enough for players to roughly remember the loots. Relics on the other hand have no character at all. They're just icons with numbers and letters you couldn't possibly be bothered to remember or care about.

 And then we're left with "boosters" for exp, credits and resources that weren't really even worth mentioning in this context, but I will anyway. Exp bonus is expecially amusing, since it assumes you're either farming focus or went into an endless void mission with unmaxed gear - which would be a diagnosis on its own.

[MuscleBeach]

4 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Random upgraded relic? Well that changes everything! Not like you can get those in every single mission anyway. 

 Relics are a horrid reward. First of all, it's not a reward at all. It's just a lottery ticket. It doesn't feel rewarding and in the mission itself you have no idea what you actually got. Relics are hollow and soulless, and have no weight as a reward. You just getting another axi N-whatever a billion times over. They don't feel like anything.

I agree with most of what you said but I wouldn't call the upgraded relics a bad reward. They are good for new players who simply need ducats and most relic drops of all rarities. But you're right in that it's not enough rewards to stay long and those new players aren't really relevant to this thread as we're talking about pushing limits and they're not really at the pushing limits stage.

Edited November 6, 2017 by MuscleBeach

[AperoBeltaTwo]

8 minutes ago, MuscleBeach said:

I agree with most of what you said but I wouldn't call the upgraded relics a bad reward. They are good for new players who simply need ducats and most relic drops of all rarities. But you're right in that it's not enough rewards and those new players aren't really relevant to this thread as we're talking about pushing limits and they're not really at the pushing limits stage.  

 Actually, new players are most relevant to this thread. Since they have to have some form of progression in the game as well. There isn't any. A newbie coming to Warframe right now would have a dump field of random content to plow through, but the second they put 2 and 2 together, ney player would realize that there's zero vertical progression in this game. Yes, some mastery rank locked weapons are more powerful than the rest, but what's the point of having a more powerful gun if the present content is oneshottable with most melee weapons anyway? While the only sort of high-level game mode is only available once every 24 hours offering 3 missions, roughly 15 minutes of gameplay total.

 Endless void missions were the only measure of progression in this game.

Edited November 6, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DeltaPangaea]

7 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Actually, new players are most relevant to this thread. Since they have to have some form of progression in the game as well. There isn't any. A newbie coming to Warframe right now would have a dump field of random content to plow through, but the second they put 2 and 2 together, ney player would realize that there's zero vertical progression in this game. Yes, some mastery rank locked weapons are more powerful than the rest, but what's the point of having a more powerful gun if the present content is oneshottable with most melee weapons anyway? While the only sort of high-level game mode is only available once every 24 hours offering 3 missions, roughly 15 minutes of gameplay total.

 Endless void missions were the only measure of progression in this game.

Except it wasn't progression. It was giving you the same things, except it was harder. And endless missions are still THERE, they still get harder. And Endless Fissure give you extra rewards for staying longer.

I don't get it. The old way was a ballache to play in.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

10 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Except it wasn't progression. It was giving you the same things, except it was harder. And endless missions are still THERE, they still get harder. And Endless Fissure give you extra rewards for staying longer.

I don't get it. The old way was a ballache to play in.

 No, you missing the point. To get more off your key without having to farm another one, you had to stay longer in the mission. To stay longer in the mission you needed a better setup. Old void skipped a whole level of randomness compared to the relic system and gave you rewards directly, while rewarding effort and preparations with more chances for a desired reward. Fissures you can do with any kind of gear, any loadout since the whole system encourages you to play in random que with random people so you're incentivized to afk the whole mission. 

 There's also the issue with people not wanting to stay in endless missions longer than a couple rotations as well as the random nature of fissure mission types in general. You barely ever get a mission type you want and then people leave after a couple of rotations. If you play alone, it's only your own relics and no benefits from the system in general, so you're forced to go to the recruiting chat and look for a team or play with randoms... 

 And "rewards" you get for staying longer are frankly laughable, as I mentioned in the previous post.

 It's just a single huge burnout engine, I hate Void 2,0 with a glowing passion.

Edited November 6, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[MuscleBeach]

17 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Actually, new players are most relevant to this thread. Since they have to have some form of progression in the game as well. There isn't any. A newbie coming to Warframe right now would have a dump field of random content to plow through, but the second they put 2 and 2 together, ney player would realize that there's zero vertical progression in this game. Yes, some mastery rank locked weapons are more powerful than the rest, but what's the point of having a more powerful gun if the present content is oneshottable with most melee weapons anyway? While the only sort of high-level game mode is only available once every 24 hours offering 3 missions, roughly 15 minutes of gameplay total.

 Endless void missions were the only measure of progression in this game.

This thread is about having a reason to stay in endless missions beyond 20 minutes/waves. Not the game having barely any vertical progression, which I agree with FYI. My friend has been playing for 3 or 4 weeks and he is MR14 and can do pretty much everything. All I did was give him 4 weapons slots and 1-2 warframe slots to start him off. But that's a different topic. New players shouldn't be able to do what we're talking about and that's stay in endless missions for  60+ minutes. Right now the biggest motivation to stay that long is simple because you want to. Not because there is an incentive or something encouraging you to stay that long. 

[DeltaPangaea]

4 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 No, you missing the point. To get more off your key without having to farm another one, you had to stay longer in the mission. To stay longer in the mission you needed a better setup. Old void skipped a whole level of randomness compared to the relic system and gave you rewards directly, while rewarding effort and preparations with more chances for a desired reward. Fissures you can do with any kind of gear, any loadout since the whole system encourages you to play in random que with random people so you're incentivized to afk the whole mission. 

 There's also the issue with people not wanting to stay in endless missions longer than a couple rotations as well as the random nature of fissure mission types in general. You barely ever get a mission type you want and then people leave after a couple of rotations. If you play alone, it's only your own relics and no benefits from the system in general, so you're forced to go to the recruiting chat and look for a team or play with randoms... 

 And "rewards" you get for staying longer are frankly laughable, as I mentioned in the previous post.

 It's just a single huge burnout engine, I hate Void 2,0 with a glowing passion.

So.

Your reward was not actually anything useful, it was the removal of necessity to do part of a grind in your further attempts to gain more parts.

But the rewards for staying longer in Endless Fissures are upgraded relics... which you don't have to go out of your way to acquire or upgrade, thus removing parts of the grind in your effort to get more prime parts.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, MuscleBeach said:

This thread is about having a reason to stay in endless missions beyond 20 minutes/waves. Not the game having barely any vertical progression, which I agree with FYI. My friend has been playing for 3 or 4 weeks and he is MR14 and can do pretty much everything. All I did was give him 4 weapons slots and 1-2 warframe slots to start him off. But that's a different topic. New players shouldn't be able to do what we're talking about and that's stay in endless missions for  60+ minutes. Right now the biggest motivation to stay that long is simple because you want to. Not because there is an incentive or something encouraging you to stay that long. 

Except, you can't really talk about one without the other.

[MuscleBeach]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Except, you can't really talk about one without the other.

I don't follow. You expect a new player to stay 60 minutes in a survival? Just because the option is there doesn't mean they're ready/capable of taking it. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, DeltaPangaea said:

So.

Your reward was not actually anything useful, it was the removal of necessity to do part of a grind in your further attempts to gain more parts.

But the rewards for staying longer in Endless Fissures are upgraded relics... which you don't have to go out of your way to acquire or upgrade, thus removing parts of the grind in your effort to get more prime parts.

 Random upgraded relics that you possibly already have hundreds of. And with the prices of primed parts this low, frankly, I doubt anybody but the very newest of players care about these relics at all.

 Old Void provided a legit direct chance of getting exactly what you wanted with every rotation and possibly multiple times, requiring from you preparations and effort.

 Fissures on the other hand are just random on top of random, on top of random, requiring no effort at all.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

6 minutes ago, MuscleBeach said:

I don't follow. You expect a new player to stay 60 minutes in a survival? Just because the option is there doesn't mean they're ready/capable of taking it. 

I expect new player to want to stay longer in a void survival and work towards that goal.

[ikkabotz]

7 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Now see, I'm trying to understand this point of view.

What was there in the old void that isn't present in the new Fissures, that wasn't actually just a massive pain in the arse?

This is the thing that drives me nuts, we're comparing fissure to old void when it doesn't have to be. .The emphasis most players are talking about is the sense of gameplay. .not the comparison of prime reward systems. .arguing fissures are better to farm specific prime parts is not the issue. .as I've said three time in this post now, the pathing was different on the AI. .the scaling was different on the AI itself. .the AI didn't just one shot rocket tag you to death with an invisible area of effect. .add to that reasons to pair up into a squad and play longer matches for reward incentives too

I wish the community would stop comparing relics to void. .I get the fissures replaced the old system, but that's a necro'd issue. .the real issue most survival players are addressing is the sense of gameplay, not the means to get prime rewards. .beyond that, if we want to talk about the focus on gameplay itself, I would argue fissures are by far less intriguing than the old system where now you distract yourself collecting fissures through the entire mission. .ultimately it's just about the feeling of the game and the game felt better.

Ultimately what makes this a divisive issue in the first place has to do with prime rewards. A lot of people didn't like or couldn't hack getting rewards in the old format, but moving beyond the divisive issues there is an argument being made for something else in acknowledgement to the old system. Namely, gameplay! 

Most of us could care less about the prime part, just give a reward incentive to play survival and to make groups in recruiting to do it again! I'd even be okay with a regalia or something visual that changes based on how far you get into a survival that just says to other players "I made it playing Tier4 for 5 hours" or something. .that way all the other die hard survival fans could compete for it too. .or the kuva reward sounds like not a too bad idea either. .but above all else, bring back the experience that used to be the void!

Edited November 7, 2017 by komoriblues

[DeltaPangaea]

16 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Random upgraded relics that you possibly already have hundreds of. And with the prices of primed parts this low, frankly, I doubt anybody but the very newest of players care about these relics at all.

 Old Void provided a legit direct chance of getting exactly what you wanted with every rotation and possibly multiple times, requiring from you preparations and effort.

 Fissures on the other hand are just random on top of random, on top of random, requiring no effort at all.

A direct chance of getting the thing you wanted that was an absolute PITTANCE of a chance, with the pool diluted with things like FUSION CORES.