The endless "Void" left by the Relic System

[Kimimoto]

When the SotR update was introduced the Tower Key system was reworked into the current Relic system, which for the most part has be extremely good! The one glaring issue with SotR, and what is currently plaguing the game for me and my friends is the death of Endless Void missions. Endless Void missions gave you incentive to push your limits, min max your frame/weapons, and get together with friends to make an organized squad. Such little content gave SO much purpose to the game and the loss of that is excruciating!

This is basically a plea to DE to fill the void that was lost with SotR in anyway. I'm not specifically asking for what we once had, but any worthwhile reason to go as far as I can would be the world. Having a Radiant count as an Intact until you extract, making the Orokin Tower next to Cetus give something that rewards Endless play, or Endless Kuva missions with scaling rewards. Anything to bring back meaning to formaing my frames/weapons, to actually get to the point where I'm worried about dying, and actually having the need to prepare for missions! 

I imagine a big chunk of the community feels the same way as I do, and I hope this meets someones eyes who could make this happen!

I'd like to hear what you think fellow Tenno! Thanks for reading!

Edit: The current Endless Fissure incentives are good for getting credits/resources/traces, but these fall pretty much flat on Veterans who have all the Primes and have no need for credits/resources.

Edit2: Someone told me this wasn't very clear. It's all about "Incentivised Endless Missions". Having meaningful scaling rewards for scaling difficulty.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Kimimoto

[KuroShiranui]

I don't understand. Can't you just run any endless missions on void right now?

[Kimimoto]

10 minutes ago, KuroShiranui said:

I don't understand. Can't you just run any endless missions on void right now?

Like just normal Mot Survival? What incentive does that give me to go as far as I can? To bring maxed weapons with 6 formas, or even forma them in the first place? Why would anyone stay past 20min/waves?

Edited November 5, 2017 by Kimimoto

[Ceryk]

Just now, Kimimoto said:

Like just normal Mot Survival? What incentive does that give me to go as far as I can? To bring maxed weapons with 6 formas? Why would anyone stay past 20min/waves?

The only incentive there EVER was was that you felt like doing it.

[Kimimoto]

3 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

The only incentive there EVER was was that you felt like doing it.

Yes? That is the definition of incentive

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Kimimoto

[KuroShiranui]

8 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Like just normal Mot Survival? What incentive does that give me to go as far as I can? To bring maxed weapons with 6 formas, or even forma them in the first place? Why would anyone stay past 20min/waves?

To push your limits just like you stated? What incentive do you want to run hard endless in the first place? I mean if anything, DE made it easier on SotR by removing the key requirement to access the void now. 

So eh, I still don't get it. I mean Mot starts with level 40 enemies, which is the same as T4 before.

Edited November 5, 2017 by KuroShiranui

[Kimimoto]

7 minutes ago, KuroShiranui said:

To push your limits just like you stated? What incentive do you want to run hard endless in the first place? I mean if anything, DE made it easier on SotR by removing the key requirement to access the void now. 

So eh, I still don't get it. I mean Mot starts with level 40 enemies, which is the same as T4 towers before.

Before you would spend one key, so you had incentive to make the most of it by trying to go as far as you can. That was lost when SotR was released. Lack of incentive will keep many players including me and my friends from trying anymore. Having that incentive was a pretty good endgame, and kept my friends playing.

I want to have to pay an entry fee, and then based on how far I can go get rewarded. I stated a few rough ideas in the OP, but something like one of those.

EX: Imagine a endless Kuva mission where you gain 10% more Kuva every 5 minutes on a survival. There would be incentive to stay as long as you can instead of just bailing at 20. You'll be gaining more Kuva per 5 minutes if you can manage to stay longer!

Edited November 5, 2017 by Kimimoto

[KuroShiranui]

Ah, THAT incentive. Hmm nah we have raids now, it has an incentive which costs 100k to make.

 

Kind of disagree too. There are probably various reasons for to enter void now, having a requirement for it would be a bummer. Don't need incentive to do that, but like you said, let's see what other people thought of this.

Edited November 5, 2017 by KuroShiranui

[Kimimoto]

30 minutes ago, KuroShiranui said:

Ah, THAT incentive. Hmm nah we have raids now, it has an incentive which costs 100k to make.

 

Kind of disagree too. There are probably various reasons for to enter void now, having a requirement for it would be a bummer. Don't need incentive to do that, but like you said, let's see what other people thought of this.

I edited it in, but what do you think of the EX I stated in my last post? For the sake of Fissures there would have to be an entry fee(how are you going to get a reward otherwise), but anything else there wouldn't necessarily have to be.

Also raids are too easy, and don't scale to match a players skill. I would generally consider them casual content.

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Kimimoto

[KuroShiranui]

It's ok, difficulty is a preference, especially when said difficulty is artificial which is currently prevalent in Warframe. 

 

Well, for now I don't exactly mind much about this. Gotta find some input from others.

[Hixlysss]

The problem with scaling the rewards as the missions get more and more difficult is then people will complain that they aren't able to go past wave 25 or 30 to get that better reward. Which is a fair response, going so far into these missions is niche that a few people do, pushing their limits for the sake of pushing their limits, not for any actual reward, primarily because there is no suitable reward for the amount of effort that goes into creating such a warframe build.
 

Though from your post...well you refer to the old tower system, where 1 key could net you like 100 different primes if you stayed long enough. That system was...too rewarding for not enough effort, from DE's point of view obviously. How ever I do have to agree on the aspect of "Well...why do we go to the void?" Currently there is nothing there except argon crystals. We need a reason to go back beyond just a resource we use on occasion. If the void became the go to place to get relics? That would be fantastic. Alternatively the void could simply be "Always fissure" where no matter what mission you do it's a void fissure, though I don't think that works lore wise...Ah, here we go! What if the void also gave void traces as resource drops/mission rewards, so we don't need to grind away at 5 relics just to get enough traces to radiant 1 relic.

[MystMan]

Another way to phrase the question is: 

Why should we spend all our endgame activity limited to the void, the void and nothing else but the void till dead do us part?
Why should we ignore the other tile sets forever after going through them once? Just because other games do this, doesn't mean Warframe has to follow suit.

That is what DE was going for, to spread game activity across the entire star chart for both old and new players instead of hanging out in the Void forever. The pro-Void players weren't affected by this, but the rest of the player base, we were tired of looking at the Void tile sets for months and years on end farming for Prime parts. Void Fatigue was a real thing.

Void is the place to farm Argon crystals. That is good enough a reason to go there. 
Lua has unique mods in its Spy missions/Laws of Ascension and the only place to farm sentients.
Earth is for farming plants and those Silver Grove mods.
Eris Hive missions have some unique mods.
and so on and on...   I wish they continued doing this for ALL planets and tilesets, making each a unique place to go to for specific farming goals. Don't lock your players in one specific location and mission forever, it will get dull over time.

Raids are too easy?   For veteran gamers, sure. But veteran gamers != the majority.  The raids are clearly not casual content or else they wouldn't be abandoned by almost everybody, so much that DE pretty much admitted they won't work on them anymore. It is irrelevant that some of us are really good at it, the raids weren't a success. These are facts.

As for incentive to stay long hours in endless missions?  I'd like to know how much % of the player base has ever had that much time to spend (or wanted to) in a single mission since the Void days in the first place. Because even during the void key days, the average Warframe player would only get to rotation C once and leave.  To spend hours in there, you had to specifically search for people in recruit. Going hours long on endless wasn't hard or challenging at all, it was just extremely dull and boring. I'd rather use that time farming for more keys doing various different missions on different tile sets instead to prevent Void burnout.

Only way to get me interested to spend so much time in a single mission is to add large mission variety to it over each milestone. For example, give me a raid or POE Bounty mission that takes 2 hours to complete split into various different missions and tasks with each milestone giving me a reward, like relics, rare mods, 1000x resource, etc.  None of that credit cache stuff, please.

 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

9 minutes ago, MystMan said:

 

Only way to get me interested to spend so much time in a single mission is to add large mission variety to it over each milestone. For example, give me a raid or POE Bounty mission that takes 2 hours to complete split into various different missions and tasks with each milestone giving me a reward, like relics, rare mods, 1000x resource, etc.  None of that credit cache stuff, please.

 

a 2 hour mission better have a kickarse reward  - I cant imagine any relic being worth that.  be worse than doing JV and getting arcane consequence.  I do like the multiple objective idea like the kuva fortress mission though.  although 2hrs is still a bit much.

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg

[Nazrethim]

I think Void just needs one change to be relevant but not flat out mandatory:

Make Void nodes act as "permanent fissures", essentially enemies there dropping reactant so we can crack relics. And fissures only showing up on non-Void nodes.

This would also solve the issue of running fissures in Void tileset: "Now, which of you Corrupted drops reactant again? Why do I have to wait for you to get Re-Corrupted just to get the damn thing? I'm already in the Void!"

And the +Resources/Affinity/Credits/UpgradedRelics should be natural to all endless modes, not just Fissures.

[Ceryk]

8 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Yes? That is the definition of incentive

 

If you are agreeing, why are you on the forums complaining about not having incentive when you just agreed that you have plenty of incentive? If you want to go run Void missions for an hour, there is your incentive. You want to run Endless Void Missions for an hour.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Ceryk

[Kimimoto]

7 hours ago, MystMan said:

Why should we spend all our endgame activity limited to the void, the void and nothing else but the void till dead do us part?

 

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I think Void just needs one change to be relevant but not flat out mandatory:

The idea of Incentivised Endless isn't tied to the void. As an example Kuva endless would have nothing to do with the void. I hope you guys aren't thinking I'm asking specifically for the old Void system back.

 

Quote

Because even during the void key days, the average Warframe player would only get to rotation C once and leave.

The only place I saw that was in T4 Defense. For Interception most people went super far with Hydroid, and with Survival people generally went 40-60 minutes unless something came up. The only reason people bailed at C on T4 Defense is because wave 20-40 took considerably more time. When that's compared to time based gamemodes like Survival and Interception it makes more sense that people would bail on C for T4 Defense.

 

 

Quote

The problem with scaling the rewards as the missions get more and more difficult is then people will complain that they aren't able to go past wave 25 or 30 to get that better reward. Which is a fair response.

Quote

Raids are too easy? For veteran gamers, sure.

That is not a fair response at all. There should be a variety of difficulty with a variety or rewards, and if you can't get to one then the game incentivises you get better. Raids are too easy for anyone who has an un-formad level 30 Rhino. Considering you can get him on the second planet, with a little instruction any new player could complete LoR. That doesn't sound like much of a raid to me, and definitely not Endgame. If a new player could tag along with a few things and complete it with minimal effort then it's pretty casual IMO. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

That system was...too rewarding for not enough effort, from DE's point of view obviously.

From what I remember when SotR hit the prices of all Prime parts basically got cut in half. Until the recent influx of new members the Prime part market was the lowest it had ever been. The reason for that was everything was now much easier to get compared to the old Void system. I would argue that the current system is more rewarding with 10x less effort. I don't have to run until 20 minutes for a chance at a 2% drop, now I can just do a capture and have a 40% chance at that rare part. Yes, I have to farm the relics now, but with Syndicate relic packs and the recent reduction of the amount of unique relics it's not hard to get what you want.

[DeltaPangaea]

M8, key efficiency was the only reason to bust your balls, and a lot of people had STACKS of keys because there's nothing else to spend syndicate standing on after a little while at the top.

And you do get free upgraded relics the longer you stay in endless Fissures. I would assume that the longer you stay, the higher refinement level you get until you're getting Radiants.

[JuicyPop]

I like the Relic system, but I also miss having a real justification for the existence of Eternal War Valkyr and Ice Chroma with all the forma bells and arcane whistles. I miss feeling as if a 3 hour run in Void Survival was an actual rewarding experience. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by JuicyPop

[Ardhanarishvara]

The longer you stay in fissures, the more potent your rewards become. Those markers at the bottom left? Increased affinity, credits, resources and drop rates. By the 15th interval, you will be getting a Radiant relic every 5 intervals following. By the 19th Interval, you have doubled affinity, doubled credits, doubled resource pickup and doubled drops. It doesn't scale any further past Wave 95 of Defence (the 19th interval), but you can still get guaranteed Radiant relics every 5 waves following.

There's the added bonus that Relic missions have the Corruption feature, which is very fun when you combine it with channeled 'frames like Oberon, Titania, Nekros, Excalibur, Equinox and others.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara

[Xzorn]

We actually lost Tower 3 Survival as a result of Fissures.

There is no place in the game where you can fight Bombards, Nullifiers, Gunners ect without dealing with T4 damage multipliers.

I still think x3 damage is a horrible concept. There's been multiple threads talking about one-shots and T4 multipliers only serve to exaggerate that problem and cater to invisibility or CC gameplay. The multipliers should be removed so that MOT can be our T3 Survival.

[DeltaPangaea]

1 minute ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

There's the added bonus that Relic missions have the Corruption feature, which is very fun when you combine it with channeled 'frames like Oberon, Titania, Nekros, Excalibur, Equinox and others.

Some guns were not meant to have unlimited ammo and I love that Corruption lets it happen anyway.

You seen that video of Max Firerate Twin Vipers?

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, DeltaPangaea said:

M8, key efficiency was the only reason to bust your balls, and a lot of people had STACKS of keys

Indeed! How the system worked though rewarded playing well and trying your hardest. I'm not asking for the entry fee Voidkey to make a return, I just want a reason beyond Credits/XP/Resources to keep going past 20. 

 

31 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

The longer you stay in fissures, the more potent your rewards become.

They do! I very much enjoy the current Endless Fissure rewards! For Veterans who don't have much of a need for Resources/XP/Credits/Relics/Traces there's not that much of an incentive to keep going. Not to mention those scaling rewards are only in Fissures!

[ikkabotz]

I've been wanting endless survival with some reward system for a long time too. .I was saying even if it's just some special regalia indicating how far into a survival I've been. .although I'd like better. .I honestly love endless and hate the current state it's in, it's a depressing shell of what it used to be. .I've seen forums addressing it for months, nothing has changed. .

Edited November 6, 2017 by komoriblues

[DeltaPangaea]

Just now, komoriblues said:

I've been wanting endless survival with some reward system for a long time too. .I was saying even if it's just some special regalia indicating how far into a survival I've been. .although I'd like better. .I honestly love endless and hate the current state it's in, it's a depressing shell of what it used to be

I mean to be fair, endless before was a depressing shell to start with. At least now there's actually a benefit to keep going other than 'I didn't have to spend a resource to do this again'

[ikkabotz]

10 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

I mean to be fair, endless before was a depressing shell to start with. At least now there's actually a benefit to keep going other than 'I didn't have to spend a resource to do this again'

Really? I'd argue the enemy pathing is worse and the scaling too. .enemy's just run by you in single file lines at times and once they scale to the one shot rocket tag mode it's pretty bad. 

I also liked playing with groups the way we did in the past as players enjoyed playing deeper into a session. 

I think it was in a better state before