The endless "Void" left by the Relic System

[Fallen_Echo]

58 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

we already have token system in warframe. Don't overcomplicate. We have Kuva and Ducats. Both directly or indirectly tradeble and valuable by the community. We have both endless gameplay and decent rewards for that gameplay - they just don't meet. Kuva/Ducats exist in a gameplay quite forcefully separated from endless missions and any form of endgame we might have had. Despite being the only worthwhile rewards in the game. Any token system should be based on what we already have in the game. Not just introducing a bunch of new resources that worth nothing outside their respective use like DE did with PoE.

 PoE... just look what Path of Exile did with their currency. All currency items are extremely useful there.

My promised system has atleast 100 new items avaible for those who play ANY endless mission as long as they can. The tokens here are the easier system but i might aswell use standing system or anything else for it, the point is that its not disconnected from the game like poe because it uses up the current nodes of the game and does not require anybody to go to some separate world.

[Torhque]

I remember posting a suggestion to rekindle Void runs, and it was to have the Void have Traces introduced to the drop table. Maybe even another sought after resource that I can't think of.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

56 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

My promised system has atleast 100 new items avaible for those who play ANY endless mission as long as they can. The tokens here are the easier system but i might aswell use standing system or anything else for it, the point is that its not disconnected from the game like poe because it uses up the current nodes of the game and does not require anybody to go to some separate world.

at some point traders run out of new items and the system would be once again subjected to content fatigue. It doesn't matter what trinkets token system uses. It really doesn't matter. What matters is how this system integrates into the game's present economy. Otherwise even resources would work as tokens.

[BlueberryIsWar]

They also could just add random events after 20 minutes.

Could have Baro Ki'Teer crashing in your mission and asking for an escort to the extract point. Maybe paying you some Ducats for it. Or selling them to you for credits. Which should be a sub objective while the normal one continues.

Or clem comming to help you giving you an exterminate sub objective. (or maybe helping him retrieve his Twin Grakata Prime)

Little stuff like that with unique rewards popping up. Then no one is forced to go past 20 like it felt back then but people who do are rewarded with little fun eastereggs.

[White_Matter]

7 hours ago, MystMan said:

So your point was that people eventually leave videogames?
 

No, my point was that DE was losing the veteran player base, which you first argued against, and then shut down your own argument by saying that it doesn't matter whether the vets leave as long as new blood comes pouring in. 

That  was my whole argument that DE didn't care about vets as long as they kept getting new players. Which is completely dishonest and traitorous given they are where they are because of the vets. I've supported the game since early 2013 and I do think I have a right to demand content that isn't solely designed to attract new players. 

 

[MystMan]

24 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

No, my point was that DE was losing the veteran player base, which you first argued against, and then shut down your own argument by saying that it doesn't matter whether the vets leave as long as new blood comes pouring in. w players..

I'm a veteran.  I'm not leaving. There's still plenty of stuff for me to keep doing in Warframe.

Veterans aren't made up solely of players who play hours of endless void missions. Just like there are many vets who liked it, there were also many vets who hated or simply got tired of endless Void. They wanted something different, something new, something faster paced. I don't have the numbers, but neither do you.

Since this Void Key -> Relic change happened in July 2016 Specters of the Rail update, more than a year ago, the game clearly hasn't suffered from it. New players from way back then are now veterans as well and still playing. The player base has stayed strong all this time.

And as for "dishonest and traitorous" ?  Those are strong words. No game developer owes their player base such allegiance that they must obey their wishes like some contract was signed in blood.  Closest thing they can do to actually betray us is by releasing Founder items. Never was it said that endgame was going to be endless Void grinding forever. And the vets who liked the old Void system aren't the only ones who made it possible that the game is where it is today, the ones who disliked it count just as much.

Endgame contents change, they have to or a game goes stale. We will eventually get tired of Plains of Eidolon one day as well. So new and different content will be needed by then as well. Or they just pull the plug on the game when its age start to show and it's no longer financially viable.

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by MystMan

[Fallen_Echo]

11 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

at some point traders run out of new items and the system would be once again subjected to content fatigue. It doesn't matter what trinkets token system uses. It really doesn't matter. What matters is how this system integrates into the game's present economy. Otherwise even resources would work as tokens.

Well i guess we could integrate in an exchange system what uses these tokens up to exchange them for ducats, kuva or use them up in an exchange market where you pay with them to exchange materials for different ones.

Even in the Path of Exile once you get everything you want, most materials will become irrelevant i imagine.

[White_Matter]

11 hours ago, MystMan said:

I'm a veteran.  I'm not leaving. There's still plenty of stuff for me to keep doing in Warframe.

Veterans aren't made up solely of players who play hours of endless void missions. Just like there are many vets who liked it, there were also many vets who hated or simply got tired of endless Void. They wanted something different, something new, something faster paced. I don't have the numbers, but neither do you.

Since this Void Key -> Relic change happened in July 2016 Specters of the Rail update, more than a year ago, the game clearly hasn't suffered from it. New players from way back then are now veterans as well and still playing. The player base has stayed strong all this time.

And as for "dishonest and traitorous" ?  Those are strong words. No game developer owes their player base such allegiance that they must obey their wishes like some contract was signed in blood.  Closest thing they can do to actually betray us is by releasing Founder items. Never was it said that endgame was going to be endless Void grinding forever. And the vets who liked the old Void system aren't the only ones who made it possible that the game is where it is today, the ones who disliked it count just as much.

Endgame contents change, they have to or a game goes stale. We will eventually get tired of Plains of Eidolon one day as well. So new and different content will be needed by then as well. Or they just pull the plug on the game when its age start to show and it's no longer financially viable.

 

I didn't say all vets left. Case in point, I'm still playing. But I play less and with less enthusiasm. Becase as soon as I go through the fresh content, there is not much else left do for me. And I'm not speaking solely in terms of getting new stuff, but I'm talking about the challenge aspect of the game.

For a game to have replay value, it has to offer something new and has to offer some amount of challenge(no, endless grinding hours is not a challenge in itself) both at the same time. The new content is cool, I liked the POE update, one of the greatest for sure. But the problem of warframe sitll exists. It lacks endgame content. I breeze past through missions without getting proper rewards(because the loot table is horrible) and it has already gotten repetitive for me to run from one end of the map to the other.

As for the other part, I never said they owe it to me to answer to my specific demands, but I think they are obliged to keep veterans in mind while they are discussing the state of the game. It is only fair. 

 

[Aleksi134]

Since relic system came to the game i still have 100s upon 100s of relics in my inventory unused, personally i find doing relics tedious compared to the old void which was relaxing more or less but of course it had its own problems with drop chances. Even then some parts of the old system i enjoyed like survival and defense.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

7 hours ago, Aleksi134 said:

Since relic system came to the game i still have 100s upon 100s of relics in my inventory unused, personally i find doing relics tedious compared to the old void which was relaxing more or less but of course it had its own problems with drop chances. Even then some parts of the old system i enjoyed like survival and defense.

I almost never play the old void. First of all the missions are random, so you can't just go play whatever mission type you want whenever you want. Second.... OH I HAVE AN IDEA.

GUYS! GUYS!!! What if on top the regular random fissures, all Void nodes would also work as permanent fissure missions??? It wouldn't solve the lack of endless content problem, but it would give void some relevance without making it forceful and allow people to at least choose what mission type they want to play.

[Fallen_Echo]

36 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

GUYS! GUYS!!! What if on top the regular random fissures, all Void nodes would also work as permanent fissure missions??? It wouldn't solve the lack of endless content problem, but it would give void some relevance without making it forceful and allow people to at least choose what mission type they want to play.

Thats a mighty fine idea there.

[Kimimoto]

I got my friend to come back to the game and play PoE today. We were getting ready to hit up an Eidolon, and what I said to him was this, "What level is your Harrow? 25? Alright that'll cut it just throw Redirection/Vitality/Duration mods on him." A non-maxed unformad frame didn't come close to having a problem with a Teralyst...

Later we also had a discussion on why Warframe is missing that reason to Forma/Minmax. I talked to him about this thread and what's missing from the game. He had the same sentiments and also brought up Mythic+ from Warcraft. The fact that Mythic+ has scaling challenge with rewards to match it gives incentive to push that next level. 

I'd like to keep this discussion going and hopefully hear some more points of view on the topic, if this is your first time in this thread what do you think? Do you have any ideas for how a system could be implemented? 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Kimimoto

[Andaius]

On 11/5/2017 at 2:34 AM, KuroShiranui said:

I don't understand. Can't you just run any endless missions on void right now?

Yes they can, there is nothing stopping you from "testing your limits" They are just lazy that they can't farm prime parts from it. So in essence it wasn't about "testing limits" in the first place.

On 11/11/2017 at 6:49 AM, Aleksi134 said:

Since relic system came to the game i still have 100s upon 100s of relics in my inventory unused, personally i find doing relics tedious compared to the old void which was relaxing more or less but of course it had its own problems with drop chances. Even then some parts of the old system i enjoyed like survival and defense.

See this doesn't make sense. Unless you just liked spamming the same void mission over and over and over again. With the relic system you play a variety of different mission each time if you like. The only thing different from old void missions of the same type was the extra pick ups that drop that you'd pick up anyway. Unless your saying you didn't pick up anything in your old void key missions. What is sounds like it comes down too is you don't like playing other missions. You still want to be stuck in the quagmire of endless void missions. I use the tons of relics that are common and got converted from the key system with junk I already have to farm for traces and ducat junk at the same time.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Andaius

[Aleksi134]

4 hours ago, Andaius said:

Yes they can, there is nothing stopping you from "testing your limits" They are just lazy that they can't farm prime parts from it. So in essence it wasn't about "testing limits" in the first place.

See this doesn't make sense. Unless you just liked spamming the same void mission over and over and over again. With the relic system you play a variety of different mission each time if you like. The only thing different from old void missions of the same type was the extra pick ups that drop that you'd pick up anyway. Unless your saying you didn't pick up anything in your old void key missions. What is sounds like it comes down too is you don't like playing other missions. You still want to be stuck in the quagmire of endless void missions. I use the tons of relics that are common and got converted from the key system with junk I already have to farm for traces and ducat junk at the same time.

With the old system it was only void i loved the void tileset still my favorite tileset in the game and the lore behind orokin is intresting thats why i prefer void over this system. In this we have to run through annoying same old same tilesets we always see and void is forgotten forever and unused for anything else than argon crystals and occasional sorties and maybe if ur lucky some fissures.

[Andaius]

2 minutes ago, Aleksi134 said:

With the old system it was only void i loved the void tileset still my favorite tileset in the game and the lore behind orokin is intresting thats why i prefer void over this system. In this we have to run through annoying same old same tilesets we always see and void is forgotten forever and unused for anything else than argon crystals and occasional sorties and maybe if ur lucky some fissures.

" run through annoying same old same tilesets" wow, so literally being stuck in the SAME tileset all the time is NOT "same ol' same" gameplay. That makes no sense. Same mission on the same tileset you must literally have a fetish for the void pod. If you feel it's not annoying and boring to grind for the 10,000 time to get crap all.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Andaius

[Aleksi134]

4 minutes ago, Andaius said:

" run through annoying same old same tilesets" wow, so literally being stuck in the SAME tileset all the time is NOT "same ol' same" gameplay. That makes no sense. Same mission on the same tileset you must literally have a fetish for the void pod. If you feel it's not annoying and boring to grind for the 10,000 time to get crap all.

Its fun because you only need to goto the void when you want to grind the prime stuff, right now we run through the same old tilesets over and over which we ALREADY run through over and over, way to be tiresome. While void tileset is never used.

[Andaius]

Just now, Aleksi134 said:

Its fun because you only need to goto the void when you want to grind the prime stuff, right now we run through the same old tilesets over and over which we ALREADY run through over and over, way to be tiresome. While void tileset is never used.

lol Once you unlock the starchart the only thing you did was run void keys. So what are these missions you ALready run over and over more then you ran old void keys?

[Aleksi134]

1 hour ago, Andaius said:

lol Once you unlock the starchart the only thing you did was run void keys. So what are these missions you ALready run over and over more then you ran old void keys?

I sure love me some ppl who assume everything about me. You dont understand the fact that we are running fissures on the old tilesets that have been on the game since the dawn of it and personally im tired as hell of them, ill do them but not happily especially because were just crammed inside space ships and small corridors especially after playing PoE these old tilesets start looking worse and worse, void holds up somewhat since it isnt a crammed space ship. 

[Andaius]

17 hours ago, Aleksi134 said:

I sure love me some ppl who assume everything about me. You dont understand the fact that we are running fissures on the old tilesets that have been on the game since the dawn of it and personally im tired as hell of them, ill do them but not happily especially because were just crammed inside space ships and small corridors especially after playing PoE these old tilesets start looking worse and worse, void holds up somewhat since it isnt a crammed space ship. 

Same can be said for the void tileset. Your crammed inside a effective space ship too.

[Kimimoto]

23 hours ago, Andaius said:

Yes they can, there is nothing stopping you from "testing your limits" They are just lazy that they can't farm prime parts from it. So in essence it wasn't about "testing limits" in the first place.

You're right to a degree, it's not about "testing limits" in the first place, otherwise we would be doing a bunch of endless missions for no rewards. That's not what this thread is about though, that incentive that the old void had gave enticed players to push their limits. It wasn't just because you wanted to, it was because it was worth doing. As long as it's not worth doing the majority of players will take the path of least resistance, 20 and done.

On a side note, I recently did an Axi Survival to 90 minutes and got 1100 traces. If anyone doesn't know the current maximum cap for a MR24 is 1300 traces. I was worried about this, because if we tried to go 120m or 150m we would be capped on traces around the 110m mark. The most incentive current fissures have is the bonus traces you can acquire, but after enough time is becomes moot since there's a cap. The idea I had to counteract this problem has a similar decay system to the Argon Crystal. What if you could acquire traces past your maximum within a single mission, but the excess traces have to be spent within a half an hour after you complete your mission? This would make it so you couldn't abuse traces for when Prime Access drops, but you wouldn't miss out for playing well and going as far as you can. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Kimimoto

[Andaius]

3 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

You're right to a degree, it's not about "testing limits" in the first place, otherwise we would be doing a bunch of endless missions for no rewards. That's not what this thread is about though, that incentive that the old void had gave enticed players to push their limits. It wasn't just because you wanted to, it was because it was worth doing. As long as it's not worth doing players will take the path of least resistance, 20 and done.

 

On a side note, I recently did an Axi Survival to 90 minutes and got 1100 traces. If anyone doesn't know the current maximum cap for a MR24 is 1300. I was worried about this, because if we tried to go 120m or 150m we would be capped on Traces around the 110m mark. The most incentive current fissures have is the bonus traces you can acquire, but after enough time is becomes moot since there's a cap. The idea I had to counteract this problem has a similar decay system to the Argon Crystal. What if you could acquire Traces past your maximum, but the excess traces have to be spent within a half an hour after you complete your mission? This would make it so you couldn't abuse traces for when Prime Access drops, but you wouldn't miss out for playing well and going as far as you can. 

Traces aren't that hard to come by as you just experianced. I personally wouldn't sweat missing some if you  really want to go to 150 minute (that pretty insane to say the least). I'm not sure about overflow though.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Andaius

[Kimimoto]

18 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Traces aren't that hard to come by as you just experianced. I personally wouldn't sweat missing some if you  really want to go to 150 minute (that pretty insane to say the least). I'm not sure about overflow though.

They certainly aren't hard to come by, but they do have value. In fact they're the most valuable thing you get from doing fissures. Do you see any flaws with having a Trace Overflow with a decay timer? I'd really like to hear if anyone had any problems with it, so it could be more fleshed out.

Just imagine if this guy had the Trace Overflow mechanic! He wouldn't have lost 60 rotations of traces. (The old Naramon cheese though...)

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Kimimoto

[DeltaPangaea]

Honestly I don't get how people talk about how the old system had incentive to go longer, while the current system does not.

The 'incentive' the old system had was 'I don't have to spend another key'. That's not a reward, that's removal of a cost.

The incentive the relic system has is 'more affinity, more credits, more resources, and free upgraded relics'. Specifically that last bit. The longer you go, the more relics you get, upgraded to increasing levels the longer you stay. How is an actual reward as an incentive worse than the removal of a cost?

[Kimimoto]

2 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Honestly I don't get how people talk about how the old system had incentive to go longer, while the current system does not.

The 'incentive' the old system had was 'I don't have to spend another key'. That's not a reward, that's removal of a cost.

The incentive the relic system has is 'more affinity, more credits, more resources, and free upgraded relics'. Specifically that last bit. The longer you go, the more relics you get, upgraded to increasing levels the longer you stay. How is an actual reward as an incentive worse than the removal of a cost?

Lets take the run I did earlier for an example, 90 minutes = 18 rotations. With the current system you're spending 18 keys for 18 pieces and gaining back ~11 keys (~8 from rotations, 3 from 25/50/75), so it's more like 7 keys for 18 pieces. The old void is 1 key for 18 rewards, now these rewards weren't always prime parts but a good chunk of them were. For this example I'm going to say that half of the rewards were prime parts, so 1 key for 9 pieces. 

If you cut the first number in half to have the same common denominator then it's: 3.5 to 9 relic VS 1 to 9 void.

If I had gone even longer, lets say 120m then it's: 4 to 12 relic VS  1 to 12 void.

The longer you go the more these ratios will grow apart

The current system DOES have incentive to go longer, but not as much as the void did. Also the Credit/XP/Resource incentive falls flat for veterans who have massive surpluses of these rewards. Also as I mentioned above, at a certain point you stop earning traces which is not a great system.

[DeltaPangaea]

1 minute ago, Kimimoto said:

Lets take the run I did earlier for an example, 90 minutes = 18 rotations. With the current system you're spending 18 keys for 18 pieces and gaining back ~11 keys (~8 from rotations, 3 from 25/50/75), so it's more like 7 keys for 18 pieces. The old void is 1 key for 18 rewards, now these rewards weren't always prime parts but a good chunk of them were. For this example I'm going to say that half of the rewards were prime parts, so 1 key for 9 pieces. 

If you cut the first number in half to have the same common denominator then it's: 3.5 to 9 relic VS 1 to 9 void.

If I had gone even longer, lets say 120m then it's: 4 to 12 relic VS  1 to 12 void.

The longer you go the more these ratios will grow apart

The current system DOES have incentive to go longer, but not as much as the void did. Also the Credit/XP/Resource incentive falls flat for veterans who have massive surpluses of these rewards. Also as I mentioned above, at a certain point you stop earning traces which is not a great system.

Quite often you'll get more relics from your endless missions though, and getting those doesn't take away from your possible prime part rewards. Also, the free relics from 25/50/etc also come upgraded, so you're effectively getting void traces there as well.

It's also easier to get relics in general than it was to get void keys, they aren't equitable 1:1. I go into a derelict survival and can come out with a relic for every single reward, depending on how the dice fall.

Furthermore, the previous system was incredibly rigid. You wanted X part, you needed to do X mission. Hope you enjoy Defense! Now you just need X relic and can do whatever mission. Don't like interceptions? Don't do em. Wait for a different fissure. Enjoy captures? Then just do captures.

And then all this is again aside from the greater control you have over the things you're actually going for rather than rolling the dice on the same overbloated drop table over and over. A single reward you want is better than an abundance of garbage.