Oberon's heal

[(PSN)Croewe]

1 minute ago, TKDancer said:

why are yall stubborn like this

 

trin isnt the only support frame in the game, and % healing would have minor impact on him(and other frames with healing powers) in normal gameplay if done right

 

it would be a QoL change cause certain AI-controlled things exist and keeping them alive isnt as easy as keeping a player alive with 70-100 healing/s

 

plus ya know, trin would keep her role as the heal+buff+energy frame and oberon would;; mostly not change, hed just be better at certain things like eidolon captures

 

also point me to where i specifically asked for a "healer/buffer/energy restore", please

Because if it's percent healing it's far harder to balance. It could either end up op or up depending on how it's done. I'll say it again. He's fine. You asked for someone to heal NPC's Trinity is that person I was listing off get other points as well to drive home their different functions.

[TKDancer]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

1-Because if it's percent healing it's far harder to balance

 

2-You asked for someone to heal NPC's Trinity is that person I was listing off get other points as well to drive home their different functions.

1- why is that? a percentage between 5-10% sounds about right

 

2- ah yes, trinity... the frame famous for the ability to heal NPCs, she is definitely not defined by her ability to heal allies within range while also giving them damage resistance and giving her allies infinite energy...no,  what truly defines her is exactly this: the ability to heal NPCs due a technicality(% based healing)

[(PSN)Croewe]

1 minute ago, TKDancer said:

1- why is that? a percentage between 5-10% sounds about right

 

2- ah yes, trinity... the frame famous for the ability to heal NPCs, she is definitely not defined by her ability to heal allies within range while also giving them damage resistance and giving her allies infinite energy...no,  what truly defines her is exactly this: the ability to heal NPCs due a technicality(% based healing)

1) Again don't fix what isn't broken. It allways ends up broken.

 

2) Glad you see my point. :)

[TKDancer]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

1) Again don't fix what isn't broken. It allways ends up broken.

 

2) Glad you see my point. :)

1) not a fix, a change for the better

 

2) you're not funny, and you're not helping

[ZodiacShinryu]

1 hour ago, TKDancer said:

right now trin is a MUST if u care about capturing eidolons

A "must"? With even just a small amount of communication you can bring in 2 lures as you blow up the last limb; that requires 0 healers. I can agree Trinity makes captures incredibly simple but not needed. Meta is meta for a reason. I wonder if Vazarin abilities can affect lures too. Also I suspect Trinity's ease comes more from DR from Blessing than the fact she can just fully heal it. A good question would to determine if Iron Renewal affects the lures, reliably or at all. The added armor could make a great enough difference to support healing over time if it doesn't.

That being said... a percentage heal could make undying Shadows of the Dead; I am not sure if that would be fun or not. Honestly, percentages (scaling) is a boon and a detriment depending on the numbers involved. Armor and flat healing can be great under most healing circumstances with players because warframes generally have no health. It does nothing when you look at large numbers (for example higher level Shadows). But to counteract a possible run away situation, I doubt DE would let renewal percentages get crazy high, likely 10% max modded. but for an average Oberon build on most frames you get 15-20% returns now (with higher pay outs should you seek it). In other words this is almost entirely about NPC targets which honestly most the time I couldn't even care about and should be the lesser concern of the abilities focus.

[TKDancer]

14 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

A "must"? With even just a small amount of communication you can bring in 2 lures as you blow up the last limb; that requires 0 healers. I can agree Trinity makes captures incredibly simple but not needed. Meta is meta for a reason. I wonder if Vazarin abilities can affect lures too. Also I suspect Trinity's ease comes more from DR from Blessing than the fact she can just fully heal it. A good question would to determine if Iron Renewal affects the lures, reliably or at all. The added armor could make a great enough difference to support healing over time if it doesn't.

That being said... a percentage heal could make undying Shadows of the Dead; I am not sure if that would be fun or not. Honestly, percentages (scaling) is a boon and a detriment depending on the numbers involved. Armor and flat healing can be great under most healing circumstances with players because warframes generally have no health. It does nothing when you look at large numbers (for example higher level Shadows). But to counteract a possible run away situation, I doubt DE would let renewal percentages get crazy high, likely 10% max modded. but for an average Oberon build on most frames you get 15-20% returns now (with higher pay outs should you seek it). In other words this is almost entirely about NPC targets which honestly most the time I couldn't even care about and should be the lesser concern of the abilities focus.

then what about:

 

keep the flat healing/s

 

make the initial healing pulse % based? nothing big, smth like 30% at rank 3 base?

Edited November 15, 2017 by TKDancer

[(PSN)Croewe]

Just now, TKDancer said:

1) not a fix, a change for the better

 

2) you're not funny, and you're not helping

1) Yeah... No. It's think about the math for a second. Let's assume on average Warframe have 750 health. The average Oberon has 100 hps. At around 200% power strength. That's full heal in 7.5 seconds. Now for inaros who has about 5k Hp that's fifty seconds of healing which is what is called balance for a kit that's already overloaded (not even mentioning the free ehp from his iron renewal augment) and if it was say 10 percent a second then everyone including inaros would be healed to full health in 10 seconds therefore breaking balance.

 

2) You literally just admitted she was the best healer think about what you said then come back.

[TKDancer]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

1) Yeah... No. It's think about the math for a second. Let's assume on average Warframe have 750 health. The average Oberon has 100 hps. At around 200% power strength. That's full heal in 7.5 seconds. Now for inaros who has about 5k Hp that's fifty seconds of healing which is what is called balance for a kit that's already overloaded (not even mentioning the free ehp from his iron renewal augment) and if it was say 10 percent a second then everyone including inaros would be healed to full health in 10 seconds therefore breaking balance.

 

2) You literally just admitted she was the best healer think about what you said then come back.

and inaros can already heal from 3 of his skills and his passive, bad example

 

"the average oberon has 100 hps" my d00d thats not the average, at all... 190% power strength(intensify, power drift, near max trans. fortitude) only nets u about 70ish, 100hps is closer to min/maxed oberon(prolly no maxed blind rage yet)

 

 

 

as for me "admitting" trin is the best healer... apparently u cant read, or u're just halucinating

Edited November 15, 2017 by TKDancer

[(PSN)Croewe]

1 minute ago, TKDancer said:

and inaros can already heal from 3 of his skills and his passive, and read again: "5-10%"

 

apparently u cant read, or u're just halucinating

Great you can't read yourself. Read my math.

[ZodiacShinryu]

6 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

make the initial healing pulse % based?

You mean the base burst heal when you cast Renewal? I mean sure I guess depending on what it is set at of course. Oberon's niche has been healing over time so the burst heal could be traded off to be percentage with the trade off being some extra energy use and interaction of toggling if you want to quickly bring up a large health pool as well as possible loss of buffs to power strength (for the HoT and Armor) that benefit just keeping it on. It needs to be done carefully not just overshadow the regen function of the power. 10% is probably a good number though that also needs to be kept in mind that it becomes less useful on warframes in general as a burst heal.

[ShortCat]

Il y a 2 heures, TKDancer a dit :

why are yall stubborn like this

i said trin beats any healer in some VERY specific situations due to her heal being % based, trin isnt the only support frame in the game, and % healing would have minor impact on oberon(and other frames with healing powers) in normal gameplay if done right

it would be a QoL change cause certain AI-controlled things exist and keeping them alive isnt as easy as keeping a player alive with 70-100 healing/s

I think you are the stubborn one, because you want Oberon to do what you want, no matter what. It is not about faster healing on NPCs, you just want Oberon to outheal Teralyst, thats it.

%-based healing is:

1. Harder to balance (said often enough already)
2. It is worse for Warframes. And Oberon should heal teamamtes first and not NPCs . Why is it worse? Because a lot of players run with base 200-300hp and % based healing would do nothing in this situation.

[TKDancer]

7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

1. Because a lot of players run with base 200-300hp

citation needed

[Birdframe_Prime]

Ahhh, TKDancer, I thought I recognised your dulcet argumentative tones ^^

To the main point of the issue, there's a distinct split in my thoughts on this.

If it's Non-Player items, like the Eidolon Lures, yeah, the heal is a little bit weak because they're designed to have a lot of health once you've hacked them to prevent consistent death by the Eidolon itself. So a percent might well be useful.

On the other hand, the reason that his percentages (for his armour gain, in this case) were removed was simply that it granted the most bonus to frames that already had a lot of the given stat in the first place.

So for frames that have lower health pools, a percent based healing would be terrible, but frames like Inaros, a percent based healing would be amazing. The difference this would cause in quality of life is a little... disparate.

Even further than that, the non-player items might well have the same consideration, they're supposed to take a certain amount of damage. If they're healed, good, if they aren't, bad. But if a warframe can survive the punishment from the Eidolon with an 80 h/s regen and +400 armour, then the non-player objects should be able to as well. In theory.

So I'm not sure this is a thing that DE will put in, overall, if you look at it from that perspective.

52 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

citation needed

Actually, base HP becomes more prevalent the higher in skill-base you go. The best Loki players I've seen don't even bother with survivability mods, especially when running in a team that can pick them up, their utility modding is far more important in those situations.

It's also really, really prevalent in the early game, where players haven't gotten the Endo needed to rank up their Vitality. So consider the babies here ^^

[TKDancer]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Ahhh, TKDancer, I thought I recognised your dulcet argumentative tones ^^

To the main point of the issue, there's a distinct split in my thoughts on this.

If it's Non-Player items, like the Eidolon Lures, yeah, the heal is a little bit weak because they're designed to have a lot of health once you've hacked them to prevent consistent death by the Eidolon itself. So a percent might well be useful.

On the other hand, the reason that his percentages (for his armour gain, in this case) were removed was simply that it granted the most bonus to frames that already had a lot of the given stat in the first place.

So for frames that have lower health pools, a percent based healing would be terrible, but frames like Inaros, a percent based healing would be amazing. The difference this would cause in quality of life is a little... disparate.

Even further than that, the non-player items might well have the same consideration, they're supposed to take a certain amount of damage. If they're healed, good, if they aren't, bad. But if a warframe can survive the punishment from the Eidolon with an 80 h/s regen and +400 armour, then the non-player objects should be able to as well. In theory.

So I'm not sure this is a thing that DE will put in, overall, if you look at it from that perspective.

Actually, base HP becomes more prevalent the higher in skill-base you go. The best Loki players I've seen don't even bother with survivability mods, especially when running in a team that can pick them up, their utility modding is far more important in those situations.

It's also really, really prevalent in the early game, where players haven't gotten the Endo needed to rank up their Vitality. So consider the babies here ^^

yes someone above already talked about how flat values are bad in the specific situation i mentioned, but can be better in most others

 

but i think changing the initial burst to a decent % heal while leaving the /s heal as a flat value could do some good

 

as for people who dont bother with survivability mods: its not as much about skill and more about what frames can simply avoid taking dmg/being attacked altogether, such as rhinos and invisi-frames(ivara, loki, octavia)

 

rhinos just stack power str/armor and get their iron skin to be their HP, and invisi-frames just go for duration/efficiency

Edited November 15, 2017 by TKDancer

[KnightCole]

17 hours ago, Civic42 said:

I run a 299% strength Oberon sometimes when I'm soloing the Teralyst. If the lure is lvl 19 or higher the chance of them getting destroyed is really low and don't forget to move your frame once in a while so the lures don't sit there and eat damage. If they just sit there and tank damage then you'll lose them eventually. Generally, the stomps and smashes won't one shot it but it can still deal plenty of damage against the lures. I don't use Growing Strength and Energy Conversion because it is unreliable to get Growing Strength working cause if you recast Renewal out in the field you probably won't be able to get Growing Power/ Energy Conversion again (not without specific melee weapon or get to the nearest grineer camp).

299% Strength?  Dang.  I thought I was doing well at 254....

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The best Loki players I've seen don't even bother with survivability mods...

Except Rob. Rob always kills himself... somehow.

_______

Okay. Really? A percentage based heal is kinda' overdoing it. You can get a 125 initial heal and 40 health per second, along with an armor buff via Hallowed Ground. The only thing I see this being good on is Objectives (cryopods) since they sport an amazing health bar. My change for this problem would be to have objectives take 3 times the heal. That makes it so that it can be balanced out. Let me remind you also that Oberon is adept at all, but master of none. He shouldn't have too good of a heal, though it's good as is.

[Sasuda]

Oberon relies more heavily on mods than most Warframes in general it seems. He needs increases to his base values, and the max could really remain the same via reducing multipliers (so as an example for 10% health restore adding power strength is first hit with a 0.5 multiplier before adding power strength) I haven't invested enough time to calculate but from what I can tell this seems to be the case. He seems to also require Rage, max Vitality, & Primed Vigor to begin to somewhat meet energy consumption. His Passive is not great. He's got some issues. Usable, even good with specific mod loadouts. Would be nice to have basic tweaks though.

[TKDancer]

4 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

My change for this problem would be to have objectives take 3 times the heal.

that could be the solution

 

% heal was just a suggestion that came up in me mind, giving AI targets increased healing to compensate for... AI would be good enough too

[Doomsknightmare]

Interesting, % healing would definitely make Oberon more popular as a support and a endgame frame, even though Trinity is still gonna be the best support.

[yles9056]

Make the heal %, but add a cap based on power strength. This should make it easier to balance while allowing the heal to scale to a reasonable degree.

[SirWranwrap]

Finished tuning my oberons build; and I have to say its fairly lackluster over lv 100. Sure you can get hit once a recover over time. But in what scenario is oberon getting hit once.

[Borg1611]

You could just add a small % bonus on top of the flat heal, it doesn't have to be one or the other. IE: leave the base flat number alone and add something like 2-5% health per tick on top of the existing number. 

I'd also like to see renew not disabling energy regen while it's toggled on. There should just be a counter balance between regen and drains (I believe Equinox's 3 works that way already). While I personally think all channels should work that way, even if you could argue X, Y or Z would be too strong if it didn't disable regen, you really can't argue that for renew. It's kind of absurd to disable energy regen for a minor HoT. Rage and energy orbs are great and all, but actually being able to benefit from zenurik would be a nice option too.