QoL for Energy

[Ryim_Drykeon]

When a Warframe goes into a mission, it's checklist is:

Weapons? Check

Ammo for weapons? Full

Warframe? Check

Energy for Warframe? .......

Why does an Operator not fully charge up a Warframe prior to a mission? It's like going out without charging your cellphone.

Could we start missions at full Energy? The Zenurik regen works well, but if I take Saryn Prime (with Primed Flow) that's 850 energy to fill. Not many squadmates want to wait for me to fill up my tank.

Alternatively, could the starting Energy Pool be changed to a Max % of the Pool instead of a flat number?

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Starting energy based on amount of modpoints left is yet another deprecated mechanic that should've been done with long ago, though it would be far less of an issue if energy (and hopefully health) dropped regularly outside of the Plains.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Everything is done it seems to mitigate the possibility of exploitative powers....so they try and make you run as dry as possible on energy while leaving broken abilities untouched.

[LSG501]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Everything is done it seems to mitigate the possibility of exploitative powers....so they try and make you run as dry as possible on energy while leaving broken abilities untouched.

yet (as I've said before) the changes to zenurik actually helped frames like ember wof (which for many is one of the most broken abilities due to it's lack of downsides) where they can pop out in their operator and then they get their quick buff to energy and off they go on their merry way with more energy than they had before the focus changes... but at the same time it's hurt frames that need to multi cast abilities due to the synergy of their abilities etc because they don't have that constant refill of energy they need. 

 

To the OP, the idea of full energy at the start is one thing that should not happen because it would just allow frames to spam their abilities without any sort of delay, it's bad enough now that frames that have always on damage abilities, combined with low energy usage, can already (and could before the change to focus) press 4 at the very start and before they even run out they'll have come across enough energy to likely fill them fully up and never have to turn 4 off again. 

Personally my quality of life change would be bringing back the old constant tick of zenurik so that frames that don't have always on abilities can top up between their casts without the extra unnecessary 'forced' step of operator void dashing

Edited December 2, 2017 by LSG501

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

5 hours ago, LSG501 said:

yet (as I've said before) the changes to zenurik actually helped frames like ember wof (which for many is one of the most broken abilities due to it's lack of downsides) where they can pop out in their operator and then they get their quick buff to energy and off they go on their merry way with more energy than they had before the focus changes... but at the same time it's hurt frames that need to multi cast abilities due to the synergy of their abilities etc because they don't have that constant refill of energy they need. 

 

To the OP, the idea of full energy at the start is one thing that should not happen because it would just allow frames to spam their abilities without any sort of delay, it's bad enough now that frames that have always on damage abilities, combined with low energy usage, can already (and could before the change to focus) press 4 at the very start and before they even run out they'll have come across enough energy to likely fill them fully up and never have to turn 4 off again. 

Personally my quality of life change would be bringing back the old constant tick of zenurik so that frames that don't have always on abilities can top up between their casts without the extra unnecessary 'forced' step of operator void dashing

How many abilities work like that? I understand the complaint about ember, but it seems like everyone generally is forced to run dry, not disagreeimg or agreeing with you, but im wondering who else is out there with drain over time ultimates besides Ember because im blanking...

[LSG501]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

How many abilities work like that? I understand the complaint about ember, but it seems like everyone generally is forced to run dry, not disagreeimg or agreeing with you, but im wondering who else is out there with drain over time ultimates besides Ember because im blanking...

off the top of my head the obvious banshee and equinox, you could maybe argue ash, excalibur, titania, chroma, nyx with the assimilate augment (yes it's slow but she's basically made immortal) and you can also argue ivara falls into the same category too with prowl.  They all have strong abilities that have energy over time where the changes to zenurik have benefited them.  Obviously they don't all fall into the 'annoying' category for some uses like ember's wof. 

The thing is energy at the start has never really been an issue for most people (in my experience if they needed energy they'd pop an energy pizza), it was long term energy regen that was the issue and that's where zenurik came into it's own with it's steady tick of energy, it just allowed us to play the game rather than the need to micro manage our energy regen like we have to now. 

[Eirshy]

@LSG501 Uh... You do know that Zenny restore (still) doesn't go through drain abilities, and that the restore amount is much faster (5/s maxed available immediately) compared to old Zenny (3/s maxed after 3-4 minutes).... and that it has a staying duration of 30s after you leave the bubble (with no refresh limit) when maxed, right?

New Zenny is absurdly better than old Zenny, and Energy Siphon still exists (as does Arcane Energize, though that's a pain to get full set(s) of)

If anything the only real problem is that both are kinda bandaids to the energy system as a whole.

Edited December 3, 2017 by TheBlueJelly

[LSG501]

6 minutes ago, TheBlueJelly said:

@LSG501 Uh... You do know that Zenny restore (still) doesn't go through drain abilities, and that the restore amount is much faster (5/s maxed available immediately) compared to old Zenny (3/s maxed after 3-4 minutes).... and that it has a staying duration of 30s after you leave the bubble (with no refresh limit) when maxed, right?

New Zenny is absurdly better than old Zenny, and Energy Siphon still exists (as does Arcane Energize, though that's a pain to get full set(s) of)

If anything the only real problem is that both are kinda bandaids to the energy system as a whole.

Yes I do know that (hence my earlier comments about the benefits to ember compared with the old one) and it was 4/s which was in my opinion (and others that I've spoken to) far more 'beneficial' than the current system, especially on higher level content, which requires us to keep void dashing to get that energy to tick over if there are no energy orbs anywhere.. there is no way that having energy constantly being restored is worse than what we have now.  Yes it's available immediately in the new version but that to me doesn't make it better, that's just removed a reason why we never used 90% of the other focus abilities, one of which on zenurik was basically what the energy restore is. 

If the current one didn't have the arbitrary 30 seconds of energy and at the very least refilled you to max energy or alternatively took our energy back to max in that 30 seconds it wouldn't be as bad but it's the fact that you need to void dash multiple times to fully fill up a frames energy from empty (which happens a LOT on plains due to lack of enemies between locations etc, not so much an issue on old maps due to closer enemies etc) that really does get old fast, especially when you consider it doesn't even automatically activate on your own frame....  not to mention I've had issues where it doesn't void dash even though I triggered it correctly (it just jumps) or the operator leaving the warframe is delayed due to host having bad pings etc.

As I said I've also been one shot the instant my operator left my warframe (I'd pressed 5 and the next second I was watching the 'death animation) so try doing the void dash while ensuring that your frame is in the bubble in the middle of a fight of high level enemies and well you get the idea.  You'd still need to wait for the energy to regen at that point where as with the old system once it was active it would just tick over when you're not using an ability or channelling on melee so you would have that energy when you actually need it rather than needing to constantly micro manage energy supply. 

The idea behind the changes were imo brought about by the dev's wanting to 'force' us to use the operators more (honestly the only time I use operators is to get energy, so no real change of usage, just more often... or to fight in kuva/teralyst missions because I have no other choice) and likely to try and reduce energy usage but the frames that were 'abusing' the energy are the frames that haven't actually been affected by the changes...

 

Arcane energize... yeah we'll just ignore that one seeing as it's a pain to get (so not really a viable option for most people) and energy siphon gives such a low energy return it's not worth using over more beneficial auras. 

[Eirshy]

@LSG501

Which auras might those be, btw? I actually very rarely find any aura as beneficial as Energy Siphon unless I'm on a frame that is in Drain 90% of the time (like Titania, on who I run Rifle Amp). Corrosive Projection is in itself a bandaid mod and additionally tends to need 3-4x to be even worth while for the content you're using it in (while being useless if not vs Grineer). Steel Charge is worth more mod energy so I can see that one being "preferred" if you haven't sunk a lot of forma into something.

 

On getting oneshotted immediately, pretty sure that's lag, you have a few moments of iframes, generally long enough to get into void mode safely (so you can void-tank while reviving/hacking/etc). Additionally you can mitigate that via Vazarin and Unairu focus schools (unbound passives increase health and armor, respectively), and Vigor and Husk Magus arcanes, as well as by actually using your maneuverability to get some distance/cover.

And on other ways to deal.... Energy pizzas are also still a thing, and if you actually modded for sustainability instead of what I know you probably are modding for, you'd be amazed at how much more sustainable you become.

 

Anyways, Zenny actually feels worth-while to me now, when previously it felt garbage due to both Shadow Step being utterly busted with Memeing Strike and the 3-4 minute charge up. I do agree that the energy system needs a bit of work (still not sure what that work *is*, exactly), but Zenny is more than just arguably better than it once was.

Edited December 3, 2017 by TheBlueJelly
forgot to tag the guy

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, TheBlueJelly said:

@LSG501

Which auras might those be, btw? I actually very rarely find any aura as beneficial as Energy Siphon unless I'm on a frame that is in Drain 90% of the time (like Titania, on who I run Rifle Amp). Corrosive Projection is in itself a bandaid mod and additionally tends to need 3-4x to be even worth while for the content you're using it in (while being useless if not vs Grineer). Steel Charge is worth more mod energy so I can see that one being "preferred" if you haven't sunk a lot of forma into something.

generally corrosive projection (yes it's band aid but well it works...) but growing power or steel charge are other options.

1 hour ago, TheBlueJelly said:

On getting oneshotted immediately, pretty sure that's lag, you have a few moments of iframes, generally long enough to get into void mode safely (so you can void-tank while reviving/hacking/etc). Additionally you can mitigate that via Vazarin and Unairu focus schools (unbound passives increase health and armor, respectively), and Vigor and Husk Magus arcanes, as well as by actually using your maneuverability to get some distance/cover.

iirc I was host... yeah we won't go on to focus....thats not a good topic either lol, hopefully the changes fix that.

1 hour ago, TheBlueJelly said:

And on other ways to deal.... Energy pizzas are also still a thing, and if you actually modded for sustainability instead of what I know you probably are modding for, you'd be amazed at how much more sustainable you become.

You're assuming I don't build around sustainability, efficiency etc.  I don't have any build with sub 100% efficiency and a lot of mine are actually higher than 100% efficiency. 

 

1 hour ago, TheBlueJelly said:

 

Anyways, Zenny actually feels worth-while to me now, when previously it felt garbage due to both Shadow Step being utterly busted with Memeing Strike and the 3-4 minute charge up. I do agree that the energy system needs a bit of work (still not sure what that work *is*, exactly), but Zenny is more than just arguably better than it once was.

Now here's the thing, I never liked shadow step (so it's changes were no real loss to me) and even though I had that part of naramon maxed I still used zenurik.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Am 2.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Ryim_Drykeon:

?

That mechanic actually exist in the game. The energy your start with is defined by your remaining mod capacity.

Means every point you do not spend on mods benefits your energy pool.

Mods are where the non biological part of the startup goes to appearently so you may want to consider adding Formas to your checklist?

Edited December 4, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Eirshy]

6 hours ago, LSG501 said:

generally corrosive projection (yes it's band aid but well it works...) but growing power or steel charge are other options.

iirc I was host... yeah we won't go on to focus....thats not a good topic either lol, hopefully the changes fix that.

You're assuming I don't build around sustainability, efficiency etc.  I don't have any build with sub 100% efficiency and a lot of mine are actually higher than 100% efficiency.

Now here's the thing, I never liked shadow step (so it's changes were no real loss to me) and even though I had that part of naramon maxed I still used zenurik.

Growing Power I feel is eh. A royal pain to actually get (under 7% from a miniboss that requires scanning a ton of plants per fight), and also not useful for exalted weapons (due to Amp auras being multiplicative and always-on). Buff casters are the only ones that could consider it, and most of them would see better use again from something multiplicative (an Amp aura or CP).
EDIT: Just realized amp auras are additive with Serration and the like, so fall back to CP being massively preferred for both vs Grineer, and the 25% power strength being kinda.... low.... for something you have to toggle your power to take advantage of.

Pretty sure you weren't, as again, you have enough iframes on exit of frame to get into void mode near if not seamlessly. Of course DoT effects might go through it, or if you had a continuous power up and your frame got popped that'd also force-cancel your operating. It also may have simply glitched out. Bugs of Eidolon and all that.

Yes I am assuming that, because as someone who never ran old Zenny and only started using new Zenny because it lets me avoid dropping pizzas, I've literally never had an energy problem on any frame. Additionally, efficiency isn't the only "sustainability" stat. Duration is also pretty direct, and some powers actually use Strength and Range to effect how sustainable they are. It's a general build direction, and it's something that I know the vast majority of people who leaned on old Zenny didn't keep in mind.

I always figured Shadow Step was gonna get nerfed/removed far sooner than it did. I stuck with it solely because it offered a carrying potential nothing else could, as on-demand invis when paired with memeing strike let you do everything I now use void mode for- reviving and hacking under fire. Only thing I miss about not having it is being able to go full melee at super high levels with Mirage on solar-heavy tiles. Even then, it's nice not having to wait 3-4 minutes for the super mode.

Edited December 4, 2017 by TheBlueJelly
Corrected how to farm GP

[LSG501]

2 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Pretty sure you weren't, as again, you have enough iframes on exit of frame to get into void mode near if not seamlessly. Of course DoT effects might go through it, or if you had a continuous power up and your frame got popped that'd also force-cancel your operating. It also may have simply glitched out. Bugs of Eidolon and all that.

No my frame was alright, I wasn't in plains so if it was a bug it was an 'operator bug' that I've never seen since but then I do try to stay away from enemies when I pop out now.

2 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Yes I am assuming that, because as someone who never ran old Zenny and only started using new Zenny because it lets me avoid dropping pizzas, I've literally never had an energy problem on any frame. Additionally, efficiency isn't the only "sustainability" stat. Duration is also pretty direct, and some powers actually use Strength and Range to effect how sustainable they are. It's a general build direction, and it's something that I know the vast majority of people who leaned on old Zenny didn't keep in mind.

I don't build around zenurik or any focus school for that matter, I build around what's best for the frame and the abilities I'll be using on that build etc, it's part of the reason I still haven't done anything with mag, can't figure out what I'd use it for lol .

2 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

I always figured Shadow Step was gonna get nerfed/removed far sooner than it did. I stuck with it solely because it offered a carrying potential nothing else could, as on-demand invis when paired with memeing strike let you do everything I now use void mode for- reviving and hacking under fire. Only thing I miss about not having it is being able to go full melee at super high levels with Mirage on solar-heavy tiles. Even then, it's nice not having to wait 3-4 minutes for the super mode.

That's the thing at high level I usually end up taking crowd control or a tank (in public groups) so invisibility makes very little difference to me.  It's a little different in custom groups but I've still never seen a need for shadow step, my main melee weapons seem to crit quick enough as it is.

[Snib]

On 12/2/2017 at 1:45 PM, JuicyButthurt said:

Starting energy based on amount of modpoints left is yet another deprecated mechanic that should've been done with long ago, 

It's actually a fairly new mechanic that was introduced last year. It's clearly meant to help new players that do not have a full loadout yet, and as such it's a good idea. The decision to not have you start out with full energy is quite a deliberate one.

That aside, energy has never been as easy to get in the game as right now. I even changed a few builds around to be less energy efficient because energy is so abundant now. It used to be entirely standard to drop energy pizzas at the start of a mission as well as during it or bring an EV trinity, now you just run through your or someone else's zenurik bubble and forget energy even exists for the most part.

Somewhat of an exception are the frames with channeled abilities that have strangely been brought up above as examples of those benefitting most this, when in fact they cannot while the abilities are active, never could. However, with proper loadouts that has never mattered, which I suspect to be the issue here. 

[SenorClipClop]

On 12/2/2017 at 8:22 PM, Ryim_Drykeon said:

QoL for Energy

Could we start missions at full Energy?

What you ask for is not a QoL, it's a buff.

[Vohim]

The focus rework was nothing but a glorified excuse to nerf naramon and zenurik 

[Birdframe_Prime]

52 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

The focus rework was nothing but a glorified excuse to nerf naramon and zenurik 

I agreed with this until I actually found out what the new system did. Especially when you have the upgraded Waybounds unlocked to make sure your Operator isn't going to instantly die while they're out of the frame.

Just a little command input. To maintain it, or activate it. And you get better energy regen, you get better melee functions from Naramon (I mean, sure, the lack of ability to allow any frame, absolutely any frame, to go invisible nearly permanently and ignore the drawbacks to that function placed in the game, like Nullifiers, and have virtually no other drawbacks to being invisible, not even energy cost, just as long as you keep hitting enemies with crits... Jeez, I wonder why that function was removed... But yes, not having it is a nerf, sure, and I'm sorry to anyone that actually relied on that to feel good about themselves...) thanks to opening enemies for finishers when you're not a frame that normally does that, like Excal or Inaros, and instead you can take a frame that would otherwise struggle with melee-only. But even for melee-based frames it has buffs that you can't deny are better, like the slow-decay combo counter buff, or the 45% (instead of 30%) affinity booster for melee kills.

For an overall better system, where I don't have to completely remove the 90% of the School's functions in order to get that one specific one I want quicker? I'll take the toggle dance.

I'll gladly pay the toggle dance cost.

[Snib]

1 hour ago, Retepzednem said:

The focus rework was nothing but a glorified excuse to nerf naramon and zenurik 

Are you out of your mind? Zenurik hasn't been nerfed, it was buffed to godlike levels.

And Naramon invis had to go, everybody knew that. Completely off-topic for this thread though.

[Ryim_Drykeon]

15 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That mechanic actually exist in the game. The energy your start with is defined by your remaining mod capacity.

Means every point you do not spend on mods benefits your energy pool.

Mods are where the non biological part of the startup goes to appearently so you may want to consider adding Formas to your checklist?

5 points of starting energy for every 1 point of extra mod capacity...that is not efficient when you have an 850 energy pool. I would need to Forma for 150 extra mod capacity Which I doubt even the best modder can do).

 

Starting at full energy will not effect those powers that have a constant drain. Those are effected by energy regeneration rate. As long as the rate is high enough, or the drain is low enough, those abilities will be able to be turned on and left on. While a full starting pool will allow for a longer start, it will not keep it always on, unless the regen is high enough.

The starting energy pool is not a buff, it is a QoL since, if I want to play with others, I have to ask them to wait until I get to full energy. Or I have to fight, sub-par for the first part of a mission. The whole point of having a higher energy pool is for those frames that use that energy for the benefit of the squad.

Full energy at start will not effect people spamming abilities. If you spam unneeded, you will still run out of energy. And those that have regen enough will continue to spam.

What it will allow is for a Frame to be fully efficient at the start of a mission. If they stay efficient depends on their energy management from there. Either by regen, pick ups, or conservative energy management.

[Snib]

3 hours ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

5 points of starting energy for every 1 point of extra mod capacity...that is not efficient when you have an 850 energy pool. 

But modding for such a huge pool was your own decision. The downside is it takes longer to fill up. I don't see a problem with that. 

3 hours ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Starting at full energy will not effect those powers that have a constant drain. Those are effected by energy regeneration rate.

As stated several times now, that is simply not correct. Abilities with constant drain (= channeled abilities) disable nearly all forms of internal and external energy regen, blue balls and Arcane Energize being the exceptions.