Gara did the community force a Nerf

[(PSN)LadyAnon_]

On 12/13/2017 at 1:24 AM, (PS4)Axiom666 said:

Honestly I don't think it's a Nerf. I don't think Gara was made as a primary defense frame. I think she was intended to be a cc/dmg frame that is tanky. Maintaining her stacks actually involves moving around A LOT and shattering lash can do some good dmg as well and provides cc with blast. I think mass vitrify was made as a brief breather type of ability for glassing enemies, refreshing splinter storm, and building stacks. She is actually a very active frame and I have been playing her as such since she came out. 

***Build I posted awhile back, if interested.

***https://forums.warframe.com/topic/883506-gara-build/

 

Should think again gara is a defense type warframe people dont' think so is an idiot wouldn't have a wall for no reason

[Cubewano]

Maybe, but isn't hard to see DE on their own realizing maybe an completely invulnerable wall with zero downsides was too much on their own. 

[(PSN)LadyAnon_]

Just now, Cubewano said:

Maybe, but isn't hard to see DE on their own realizing maybe an completely invulnerable wall with zero downsides was too much on their own. 

Yup they could have nerfed it to 15 seconds no different then a sleep arrow last a minute or a sleep limbo last minute and a half

[TARINunit9]

On 12/12/2017 at 7:37 PM, Amazerath said:

For example, lots of people have asked for them to remove or drastically change Nullifiers but that has never happened.

It actually did happen. Nullifiers got tons of QoL improvements (for us, the Tenno) after three years of whining about them. It took several tries, explaining that it's not just about us being too strong and wanting to stay strong, but it happened

[(PSN)dZy_dEviL]

5 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Maybe, but isn't hard to see DE on their own realizing maybe an completely invulnerable wall with zero downsides was too much on their own. 

Yea but they release it like that so they know what they're doing.  The same way they are working on Khora right now.  Pretty sure they play test this stuff also.

Most frames abilities are reworked because the community is very vocal and they listen... like most devs and publishers do.  Ash and Bladestorm is a prime example of this.

[(PSN)LadyAnon_]

1 minute ago, (PS4)dZy_dEviL said:

Yea but they release it like that so they know what they're doing.  The same way they are working on Khora right now.  Pretty sure they play test this stuff also.

Most frames abilities are reworked because the community is very vocal and they listen... like most devs and publishers do.  Ash and Bladestorm is a prime example of this.

They shouldn't go on what bunch of newbies wants. Go by what the vets wants cause a bunch of cry baby kids wants a nerf. After it comes out it should be untouched unless a real legit reason look at limbo his 4th is an example no limitations stuff like that needs fixed. At least when there' a rework out thought into it need something with duration not just health on everything

[Cubewano]

Just now, (PS4)dZy_dEviL said:

Yea but they release it like that so they know what they're doing.  The same way they are working on Khora right now.  Pretty sure they play test this stuff also.

Most frames abilities are reworked because the community is very vocal and they listen... like most devs and publishers do.  Ash and Bladestorm is a prime example of this.

Not really, this game goes through reworks left and right for a reason. We are the play testers, DE just makes sure it sounds good on paper then sends it to us for the serious testing, then use the data they get back to balance it if it doesn't work as they thought it would. 

Ash is also a terrible example since his rework failed to address the biggest complaint had by the community towards him, which was the afk cinematic attacks. It was more targeted towards in-house data than community feedback.

[Hypernaut1]

11 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

 

Ash is also a terrible example since his rework failed to address the biggest complaint had by the community towards him, which was the afk cinematic attacks. It was more targeted towards in-house data than community feedback.

the Ash rework was more about a change in their own personal design philosophy than it was a response to player feedback. 

They wanted to get rid of the "press 4 to delete a room of enemies" gameplay that Ash had. While I did enjoy the old Ash, I admit to literally sleep playing my way to top kills in void defense just pressing 4 while lazily looking at groups of enemies.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

On 12/12/2017 at 11:14 PM, Amazerath said:

Anyway, the drones you mentioned were added specifically to give sniper rifles a chance against nullifiers. That's the only reason why they were added. So I don't consider that to be a "drastic change". Drastic would be something that changes the enemy in a fundamental way and that is something they have never done.

?

It also weakened or strengthened according to the terrain. It's the only enemy in the game that is affected by the environment itself. I'd say that's a drastic change in design philosophy.

 

[(PSN)LadyAnon_]

Yup shooting the wall and you getting hit and dying without it breaking is balanced lmfao 

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

the Ash rework was more about a change in their own personal design philosophy than it was a response to player feedback. 

They wanted to get rid of the "press 4 to delete a room of enemies" gameplay that Ash had. While I did enjoy the old Ash, I admit to literally sleep playing my way to top kills in void defense just pressing 4 while lazily looking at groups of enemies.

pretty much. it was hardly a response to community desire at the core of it all. 

[(PSN)LadyAnon_]

18 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Not really, this game goes through reworks left and right for a reason. We are the play testers, DE just makes sure it sounds good on paper then sends it to us for the serious testing, then use the data they get back to balance it if it doesn't work as they thought it would. 

Ash is also a terrible example since his rework failed to address the biggest complaint had by the community towards him, which was the afk cinematic attacks. It was more targeted towards in-house data than community feedback.

With the wall they could made it where it drains your energy time its up invulnerable at a price of energy/duration that right there would been a perfect rework 

[(PSN)LadyAnon_]

6 minutes ago, Nation_X said:

Yes, this forum is turning into Bungies cess pit with cries for constant nerfs

Yup and I do see it needed rework in a way for way making it energy based time you have it up drains your energy with a duration that' about it. Not this.... shouldn't be able to die behind bullet proof glass when it' up and not shattered people wants to cry should just leave the game. There is one bug lash wont shatter it I've tried when it says you can on the ps4 

[(PSN)dZy_dEviL]

2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Not really, this game goes through reworks left and right for a reason. We are the play testers, DE just makes sure it sounds good on paper then sends it to us for the serious testing, then use the data they get back to balance it if it doesn't work as they thought it would. 

Ash is also a terrible example since his rework failed to address the biggest complaint had by the community towards him, which was the afk cinematic attacks. It was more targeted towards in-house data than community feedback.

C'mon...you really don't believe what you're saying do you?  I see you're just being cynical b/c unless you work at DE I'd like to see some actual facts-based evidence that they don't test anything and we do it for them.  

They create something, they test it out (like they are doing with Khora now) and we play it.  We point out crap that their small team didn't find or just flat out missed which can happen as they are human after all.  There is no way in hell that they put out Gara's glass shield like that and had no idea it was basically invincible.  Seriously, it takes one defense/survival mission to see that was thing.  You're giving way too much credit to their "data" and how they adjust based on that info.  If you think that we as the community, reddit and youtubers don't have a voice in how things go you're sadly mistaken.  I'd say it could easily be 50/50 far as feedback is concerned. 

Ask Bungie how key the communities voice is to tweaking and making adjustments to the game.  They put out a product and the community told them it was crap.  They put out a broken weapon the community lets them know.  Abilities aren't working or there is bug or cheese spot...you think they find all that themselves?  Otherwise, how they put out the weapon or ability is just as they intended.  

[Cubewano]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)dZy_dEviL said:

C'mon...you really don't believe what you're saying do you?  I see you're just being cynical b/c unless you work at DE I'd like to see some actual facts-based evidence that they don't test anything and we do it for them.  

They create something, they test it out (like they are doing with Khora now) and we play it.  We point out crap that their small team didn't find or just flat out missed which can happen as they are human after all.  There is no way in hell that they put out Gara's glass shield like that and had no idea it was basically invincible.  Seriously, it takes one defense/survival mission to see that was thing.  You're giving way too much credit to their "data" and how they adjust based on that info.  If you think that we as the community, reddit and youtubers don't have a voice in how things go you're sadly mistaken.  I'd say it could easily be 50/50 far as feedback is concerned. 

Ask Bungie how key the communities voice is to tweaking and making adjustments to the game.  They put out a product and the community told them it was crap.  They put out a broken weapon the community lets them know.  Abilities aren't working or there is bug or cheese spot...you think they find all that themselves?  Otherwise, how they put out the weapon or ability is just as they intended.  

Are you going to give me fact-based evidence on why I couldn't be right? I'm also not seeing how I'm being cynical, there is nothing wrong with using the players as testers, so long as this game is in beta we know what we are in for, and it's far more efficient for the staff to use the community for precision balance than waste extra time on a small team who won't catch anything we wouldn't a dozen times faster.  

 

Going to give facts on any of these since that's where you want to go? You working for DE on the testing team? And no duh DE had to be aware the shield was invincible, they coded it, but for some reason or another (likely because not a lot of active testing went into the skill) they didn't feel it needed altering until after it was in-game, even though anyone who actually plays the game could easily realize it was over powered. Almost like maybe they only really focused on how it worked on paper and not the in practice effect, which is funnily enough exactly how they addressed the Khora rework that you like to bring up, they didn't say the frame was weak in their experience without the changes, but that "on paper" it sounded like she'd be too weak. Hmm, wonder where their leanings are.

 

You are trying to call me cynical, but it seems more like you are just blindly faithful, and putting DE on a higher pedestal than is really fair. 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Cubewano

[TinySuperSalad]

I started playing right after Gara got nerf, so for me he's always been OP even if people say he sucked. (Not as OP as Equinox, Chroma, Ember and some others) But that stupid shield saved me a lot of times.

 

Nerfing decisions is mostly taken from in game data. It would be from the higher level maps and endless missions.
I will not be surprise if DE have a few people they keep track on that have max mod on different playstyles.
This is the type of players that will find ways to take advantage of unbalance plays. Which is good for us who googles for best builds.

It's not hard for DE to see which frames is commonly used and which frame is topping the DPS / Defense / Ability used / etc.

Specially if the Warframe that keeps topping the metres is the latest addition. That really shouts unbalance for DE that needs to get fix/nerf.

I for one can't wait for Khora and Umbra release so I can experiment mod builds and see how far I can get them up in the metres before they get nerf.

People should have the expectations that in online mmo type of games, nothing can last forever.
Specially Over Powered new weapons / mods / Warframes.

[(PSN)dZy_dEviL]

26 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Are you going to give me fact-based evidence on why I couldn't be right? I'm also not seeing how I'm being cynical, there is nothing wrong with using the players as testers, so long as this game is in beta we know what we are in for, and it's far more efficient for the staff to use the community for precision balance than waste extra time on a small team who won't catch anything we wouldn't a dozen times faster.  

 

Going to give facts on any of these since that's where you want to go? You working for DE on the testing team? And no duh DE had to be aware the shield was invincible, they coded it, but for some reason or another (likely because not a lot of active testing went into the skill) they didn't feel it needed altering until after it was in-game, even though anyone who actually plays the game could easily realize it was over powered. Almost like maybe they only really focused on how it worked on paper and not the in practice effect, which is funnily enough exactly how they addressed the Khora rework that you like to bring up, they didn't say the frame was weak in their experience without the changes, but that "on paper" it sounded like she'd be too weak. Hmm, wonder where their leanings are.

 

You are trying to call me cynical, but it seems more like you are just blindly faithful, and putting DE on a higher pedestal than is really fair. 

Seems like you're getting pretty worked up on a simple conversation here.  It's not that serious.  You were the one that called us "playtesters" and I refuted that with my opinion.  You don't need evidence to prove that and yes, there is plenty wrong with using your community/customers as beta testers.  In a beta testing capacity and scenario that is perfectly fine but not to test what is broken on a finished product is not good business advice.  You do the beta/play testing before the finished product which is what they are paid for...create it and test it before putting it in the public sphere.

Also, I was speaking on Gara's ability.  Which in no way should take extensive amount of testing to see that her shield was stupid good.  No need to put together a huge team to figure that out.

And no...I'm brand new to this game so I have no reason to put these devs on a pedestal.  

Edited January 13, 2018 by (PS4)dZy_dEviL

[Kyronz]

who knows the genesis of the nerf, gara is in a terrible state atm, they need to drastically reduce the energy on her ult or she will always be a broken frame only good for sub lvl 60 mobs.

[Cubewano]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)dZy_dEviL said:

Seems like you're getting pretty worked up on a simple conversation here.  It's not that serious.  You were the one that called us "playtesters" and I refuted that with my opinion.  You don't need evidence to prove that and yes, there is plenty wrong with using your community/customers as beta testers.  In a beta testing capacity and scenario that is perfectly fine but not to test what is broken on a finished product is not good business advice.  You do the beta/play testing before the finished product which is what they are paid for...create it and test it before putting it in the public sphere.

Also, I was speaking on Gara's ability.  Which in no way should take extensive amount of testing to see that her shield was stupid good.  No need to put together a huge team to figure that out.

And no...I'm brand new to this game so I have no reason to put these devs on a pedestal.  

I'm just responding to you, much like a conversation goes. But if all you are going to offer is double standards than I'm not sure this one is going to go anywhere. If you require evidence from de to determine if we are testers, likewise should go for saying we aren't no? 

How you feel about the level of refinement a game should release their content in is your opinion, I'm just making it clear that to me it isn't a problem, at least for this kind of development style, so it isn't being cynical. 

Glad we agree here, if any active testing was done by DE they would have quickly realized the skill needed tuning, the fact they didn't implies they leave most of that to the community.

Don't need to be a veteran to have too high expectations. 

[Cifrer]

Where does this idea that only veterans can have valid input come from?

[Amazerath]

@(PS4)Tactless_Ninja @TARINunit9

The point of my post here was to say that DE has their own idea of what kind of game Warframe should be. And while they do listen to feedback that doesn't mean they will blindly do whatever people ask them to do. Even if there's a lot of people asking.

This thread is a month old now and I've said everything I wanted to say in the first page. With that clarified I'll be moving on.

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, Cifrer said:

Where does this idea that only veterans can have valid input come from?

elitism, people want to feel special and better than others, playing longer is just one excuse to pretend they are. 

it's not actually much of a argument though. 

[Lanadra]

On 12/13/2017 at 4:37 AM, NightBlitz said:

not likely, the ones that actually can make that decision dont seem to pay any attention to the official forums, prefering to read through the reddit and twitter posts instead.. atleast thats what they've implied

I still find this hilarious, that they prefer any channel but their own created one for actual feedback.

[TinySuperSalad]

17 minutes ago, Amazerath said:

@(PS4)Tactless_Ninja @TARINunit9

The point of my post here was to say that DE has their own idea of what kind of game Warframe should be. And while they do listen to feedback that doesn't mean they will blindly do whatever people ask them to do. Even if there's a lot of people asking.

This thread is a month old now and I've said everything I wanted to say in the first page. With that clarified I'll be moving on.

I can't help it...

[(PSN)Axiom666]

13 hours ago, (PS4)LadyAnon_ said:

Should think again gara is a defense type warframe people dont' think so is an idiot wouldn't have a wall for no reason

Have you even tried playing her offensively? She does impressive dmg. Plus you have 90% dmg reduction and you can put 90% on allies. Just adjust your play style and use vitrify to refresh splinter storm and to build stacks. I never use my vitrify defensively.

 

***Now, I do agree they over nerfed her vitrify.

Edited January 14, 2018 by (PS4)Axiom666