Eidolon Teralyst Way too weak.

[KingSolir]

When I saw Plains of Eidolon for the first time in videos I rejoiced, finally i thought there would be a reason for all the optimization I have done in this game. The Plains have been out for 2 months now and well optimized teams are killing tons of Teralysts every night cycle. DE this was finally your chance for end game content and this is what it is? why can't you balance things well, make a fun boss  that can actually kill the veterans. and maybe that takes at least 20 minutes to kill for even the most well optimized setups. just make the reward like 10x what it is worth and everything will be balanced. maybe make brilliant eidolon shards convertible into endo, kuva and credits in an amount you think worthy of peoples time and effort. If you did this people in most situations would have a reason to shoot for playing this content. currently the system gets boring after a few night cycles, at least for me. maybe add some random modifiers to the Teralyst like  he can roll some different attacks, and elemental weaknesses at random so nobody can murder him in 2 seconds or you know increase his armor/health by like 100 times what it is.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

You should rename this topic from "Eidolon Teralyst Way too weak" to "Space Ninjas Way too strong".

It's the same thing for every boss. We learn how it works, we find a way to cheese it, and we use that method for that boss every time. This crap isn't new.

And of course, if they buff the boss, people will complain about balance. If they nerf the Warframes, people will complain about balance.

People will complain.

[YUNoJump]

Read as: "Chroma is the antithesis of balance".

Before people realised they could just one-shot the limbs with Chroma, it was a good fight. If DE wants to make bosses have tangible health pools without invincibility phases clogging up 90% of the fight, they need to do something about Chroma's damage output, because if they don't then it is borderline impossible to make a boss that has enough health to withstand Chroma, but with low enough health that anyone other than Chroma can even put a dent in them.

[KingSolir]

But the ninja's don't need a nerf, as that would effect the entire game. and the game needs plenty of space for the less powerful players. but Teralysts are supposed to be end game content for vets, so why should it get destroyed so fast, there is plenty of reason for boss buffs in this case.  So long as the Rewards for the Teralyst kills are improved accordingly there shouldn't be any complaints.

[KingSolir]

nerfing croma would do very little. people would just start using octavias buff instead, it's at the same damage numbers as chroma just works for the whole team instead of just chroma. and even before chroma teralysts died fairly quick, even quicker now that people use volt. Add on to that how the teralyst doesn't even have much of a shot at killing a decent team, it for sure needs a buff.

Edited December 15, 2017 by KingSolir

[YUNoJump]

6 minutes ago, KingSolir said:

But the ninja's don't need a nerf, as that would effect the entire game. and the game needs plenty of space for the less powerful players. but Teralysts are supposed to be end game content for vets, so why should it get destroyed so fast, there is plenty of reason for boss buffs in this case.  So long as the Rewards for the Teralyst kills are improved accordingly there shouldn't be any complaints.

The problem is, the buff frames (ie Chroma and maybe 1 or 2 others) give so much of a buff, that not using them reduces your damage output exponentially. If a boss had enough health to withstand Chroma-level damage, then anyone not using Chroma would have no hope of making any dent in the boss at all. People would be forced to use the select few frames capable of that kind of damage output, and so far Warframe as a game has done reasonably well at avoiding the scenario where we have to use specific frames for specific tasks (except Frost). If we needed to use Chroma/etc-type frames exclusively to kill bosses, it would detract from the game's enjoyability.

4 minutes ago, KingSolir said:

nerfing croma would do very little. people would just start using octavias buff instead, it's at the same damage numbers as chroma just works for the whole team instead of just chroma.

Then we'd have to nerf them too I suppose. Another option is to make the flat damage reduction that Eidolons (and Noxes) have work on a sort of gradient, such that normal gunfire is appropriately reduced, but if you deal 10x more damage than that, then the reduction turns up to 11 and you don't vaporise the Eidolon instantly.

[Iris.Zero]

Hi KingSolir,

Well, do not despair fellow tenno! There are new Teralyst variants on the way and will probably make their apperance soon ingame. The first will be the currently "Megalyst" called variant of the teralyst. Being bigger, stronger and much more dangerous this one will appear during stroms on the plains and has abilities to counter the current ways to kill the teralyst. This was confirmed by DE in multiple streams especially in devstream 101. Here you can see the "Megalysts" first appearance:

https://clips.twitch.tv/GiftedCarefulTaroNotLikeThis

The second currently known "to be released" variant of the Eidolon teralyst will be a flying, much bigger enemy type. DE mentioned that archwing combat will be needed to fight this new enemy. The concept was showcased in devstream 100 and had even an excalibur for scale in the picture to show how goddamn huge the thing is. If you don't want to watch the whole stream, the concept is shown here:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Devstream_100

I too was somewhat dissappointed in the teralyst, not in it's design but in it's difficulty. It was thought to be a challenge to veteran players but it isn't that difficult at all. I hope the new variant will change that. Especially the "Megalyst" which is intended to be a real challenge to bring some change to the hunt.

May the Lotus guide you, Tenno!

Sincerely

Iris.Zero

 

[KingSolir]

instead of a straight nerf to buff frames they would have to make a new damage type and all damage buffs from frames just added the same numbers but in that type of damage. they could make teralysts 80% resistant to it or something along those lines.

[KingSolir]

5 minutes ago, Iris.Zero said:

Hi KingSolir,

Well, do not despair fellow tenno! There are new Teralyst variants on the way and will probably make their apperance soon ingame. The first will be the currently "Megalyst" called variant of the teralyst. Being bigger, stronger and much more dangerous this one will appear during stroms on the plains and has abilities to counter the current ways to kill the teralyst. This was confirmed by DE in multiple streams especially in devstream 101. Here you can see the "Megalysts" first appearance:

https://clips.twitch.tv/GiftedCarefulTaroNotLikeThis

The second currently known "to be released" variant of the Eidolon teralyst will be a flying, much bigger enemy type. DE mentioned that archwing combat will be needed to fight this new enemy. The concept was showcased in devstream 100 and had even an excalibur for scale in the picture to show how goddamn huge the thing is. If you don't want to watch the whole stream, the concept is shown here:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Devstream_100

I too was somewhat dissappointed in the teralyst, not in it's design but in it's difficulty. It was thought to be a challenge to veteran players but it isn't that difficult at all. I hope the new variant will change that. Especially the "Megalyst" which is intended to be a real challenge to bring some change to the hunt.

May the Lotus guide you, Tenno!

Sincerely

Iris.Zero

 

even if that is the case The buff frames still pose the same problem were talking about without exception for ground enemies, the Archwing version will be fine.

Edited December 15, 2017 by KingSolir

[Inanegrain62]

Eidolon Teralyst, the more the players kill it for its loot, the more it will snowball. Nothing wrong here, just a case on how things ramp up in warframe, like armour scaling.

[Iris.Zero]

I don't know how they will address this problem. Since a nerf is unlikely since it would enrage the community *flashbacks to vivergate*, I honestly think they will fix this by increasing the survivability of the Eidolon through armor and health buffs. Otherwise it would be interesting to see how an eidolon with a dispel ability to counter warframe abilities works out ingame.

[Nirrel]

12 minutes ago, Iris.Zero said:

 will appear during stroms on the plains and has abilities to counter the current ways to kill the teralyst.

wut? During storms? So we wont be able to know when to fight them? That sounds awful.

[ZodiacShinryu]

16 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Read as: "Chroma is the antithesis of balance".

Before people realised they could just one-shot the limbs with Chroma, it was a good fight. If DE wants to make bosses have tangible health pools without invincibility phases clogging up 90% of the fight, they need to do something about Chroma's damage output, because if they don't then it is borderline impossible to make a boss that has enough health to withstand Chroma, but with low enough health that anyone other than Chroma can even put a dent in them.

But its just for this one piece of content. Everything within the set values by DE are way too weak for a (optimized) Chroma to matter which is why no one has given a damn about what he has been doing for a long time until now. Chroma is simply held on a pedestal of the problem because people don't want to give stuff up but they want challenge. Yes balancing for Chroma specifically is bad however Teralysts were designed to be the ideal target for Chroma; a simple damage check. This particular encounter is problematic because of a couple of things: Its all about guns (which have their own balance problems), its favors frames that increase damage of weapons directly (since powers don't work on them), and the fight isn't particularly dynamic. I would like to say that on Rhino, I can kill the limbs in about 5-7 shots alone (let alone there are generally 2 other people that can do stuff too). Even without Chroma this fight is nothing, maybe just adding a minute or two to the fight at most. Octavia is already a decent replacement as well. If Mirages get their way, she would be even simpler (less situational timing). Then there are buff stackings of Volt, Ember, and Oberon. Even if DE opened up the power limitations then there is Banshee (who has the potentially biggest buffing potential), Mesa, Limbo. Excalibur, Valkyr, and maybe even Ivara.

30 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Then we'd have to nerf them too I suppose. Another option is to make the flat damage reduction that Eidolons (and Noxes) have work on a sort of gradient, such that normal gunfire is appropriately reduced, but if you deal 10x more damage than that, then the reduction turns up to 11 and you don't vaporise the Eidolon instantly.

Like the Operation objective, Hemalyst was it? I haven't done Lephantis in a while but probably is similar, idr. Pretty much just damage capped it. Honestly I am surprised the forums didn't ignite over that, though I suppose the Hemalyst did by all the Embers just spamming Fire Blast in its face.

[Neptlude]

the current Teralyst is a low level... They will release stronger and tougher version later on... The current one is for newbies...

[(PSN)fullblast35]

 

50 minutes ago, Neptlude said:

the current Teralyst is a low level... They will release stronger and tougher version later on... The current one is for newbies...

you just got used to it dude. he is not for newbies. as we speak there're alot of veteran experienced raid players who have no idea how to bring it down yet.

[Phobonaut]

Errr, the Teralyst IS a low level and is meant to be killed by newbies. He's lvl 20 for F*** s sake. That's Ceres. Early game.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Phobonaut

[OvisCaedo]

Man, people really overestimate chroma's importance to how Teralyst fights go. You really do not need chroma-level damage, and especially not bugged Chroma-level damage, to make short work of the limbs or his health bar. It takes maybe five seconds for me to blow up a teralyst limb solo as Volt if I don't screw up my aim. Chroma's sheer level of damage is just, as is often the case, horrific overkill to the point where it shouldn't actually be helping that much.

this also ties back into why I actually hate this fight so much. It's almost a good idea to have an active segment decoupled from warframe/weapon damage so that those gear checks themselves aren't too hard to beat. but when the rest of the fight, and overwhelmingly the bulk of it without a good killsquad (likely exploiting adarza and volt shields, since DE removed the ability for just about all normal buffs to help operators ages ago), is just whittling at it with the operator amps while it walks around. It just doesn't feel fun at all. It's not hard, either; it's in fact very difficult for it to BE hard because even if you feel too lazy to just hit the invincibility button as the operator, getting hit and killed barely even matters.

it's just a timesink where the only point of actual risk or difficulty pops up is that you have to keep those stupid lures alive. But in a real squad there will likely be a trinity just covering that easy-like.

[DrBorris]

4 hours ago, Phobonaut said:

Errr, the Teralyst IS a low level and is meant to be killed by newbies. He's lvl 20 for fucks sake. That's Ceres. Early game.

^This

 

The Teralyst is the "noob" Eidolon fight. This is the one where you grind up your standing and get better stuff to fight bigger Eidolons. This is something people can do right after finishing TWW and feels well balanced for that.

And we even know we have at least two Teralyst variants as well as an entirely new Eidolon in the pipeline.

[(XBOX)dude1286]

I think from a design standpoint, the Teralyst is a great boss. The only issue I have with it is the amount of grind to get everything form Onkko, and the Teralyst being the only way to get standing and some materials for the items in his inventory (looking at you Eidolon Shards).

[Nazrethim]

Chroma is broken. Eidolon Teralyst is okay as it is, as it's the introductory eidolon to fight (There are two, more powerful, variants on the works) and it's difficulty isn't for newbies (as you need a specific setup with well modded weapons to fight it effectively).

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

funny thing is, for those of us who don't have a chroma(or a fully modded one like my brother) teralyst is actually a PAIN to kill right now. 

my brother and i rarely use our operators anyways, so we haven't even bothered leveling up Onkko atm.

Besides, if im going to shoot stuff(say an armoured grineer?) i'll just level my tigris, sybaris, insert weapon here at it and fire.

personally? if people would stop using chromas in their squads against the thing, your thread wouldn't exist.

[Sader]

31 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Orcus Imperium said:

funny thing is, for those of us who don't have a chroma(or a fully modded one like my brother) teralyst is actually a PAIN to kill right now. 

my brother and i rarely use our operators anyways, so we haven't even bothered leveling up Onkko atm.

Besides, if im going to shoot stuff(say an armoured grineer?) i'll just level my tigris, sybaris, insert weapon here at it and fire.

personally? if people would stop using chromas in their squads against the thing, your thread wouldn't exist.

There are plenty of other characters who can one shot or nearly one shot and/or quickly kill this boss. I'de rather not say who so that the spotlight stays firmly planted on Chroma.

[Phobonaut]

1 hour ago, Sader said:

There are plenty of other characters who can one shot or nearly one shot and/or quickly kill this boss. I'de rather not say who so that the spotlight stays firmly planted on Chroma.

Don't forget that if you know how to build a good weapon, and if you have a good aim, you can destroy Teralysts easily with any frame.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

9 hours ago, Sader said:

There are plenty of other characters who can one shot or nearly one shot and/or quickly kill this boss. I'de rather not say who so that the spotlight stays firmly planted on Chroma.

i'm aware of the others as well, chroma's just the most blatant about it.

[VoxGray]

17 hours ago, Sader said:

There are plenty of other characters who can one shot or nearly one shot and/or quickly kill this boss. I'de rather not say who so that the spotlight stays firmly planted on Chroma.

You don't even need a damned buff Frame to do it. Put a good Riven on a sniper and you can obliterate it. I've had Trins steal the show countless times doing just that. The Teralyst doesn't exactly have god-mode levels of armor and health, it just has a damage reduction threshold you need to exceed to deal actual damage. With how many busted mods and weapons we have right now, that's not particularly difficult.