An attempt at a construtive talk about limbo

[Wesgile]

12 hours ago, LuinCeltchar said:

1. No it's not silly. It's silly for you to be annoyed that another player is preventing the objective taking damage. If you really want to get kills, which is not the objective of Mobile Defense, then going somewhere else to pretend you're in an Exterminate mission is a fair request.

I'm sure everyone would LOVE a Limbo on Hydron.

[Phobonaut]

DE just needs to move Limbo's quest higher up the Starchart/MR requirements.

I play a lot with my clannies, do high level Starchart and sorties. I have never met a S#&$ty Limbo. MR might not mean much in terms of skill, but it does mean a lot in terms of playstyle and cooperation.

[DrakoKnight48]

I am so sick of hearing about this frame. It isn't even funny. 

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

On 12/19/2017 at 3:47 AM, Demonreaper. said:

When i do get up to that point, i would pop stasis at the best opportunity so that the toxic enemy could be killed. That is if i am still using limbo at that point. If other players are dieing when stasis ends, what difference does it make whether they are fighting with or without it existing. If they are getting hurt by stasis being popped, then that suggests they are relying on it being there in the first place, which then means that they would be wanting limbo and stasis to be there because they can't cope without it.

I think you're misunderstanding.  Stasis is the problem there - without guns you are forcing the infested to run up to you, that is how their poison auras hurt you.  You're meant to be killing them from a distance, not up close with melee - as Stasis would force you to do.  They aren't dying when it ends - they're dying when it gets cast.  

Letting go of stasis wouldn't be the killer, keeping it up would.  The problem is they can't cope WITH it - because a group of level 80 Toxic Eximi who walk up to a crowd of players trying to melee them is going to wipe the whole squad.  Get rid of stasis and you can actually shoot them before they run up to you and poison you.

Edited December 21, 2017 by (PS4)lagrue

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

On 12/19/2017 at 10:14 PM, Wesgile said:

I'm sure everyone would LOVE a Limbo on Hydron.

I can only imagine the rage induced lol

I swear the day I see a Limbo on Hydron is the day I die of an aneurysm.  

[Demonreaper.]

3 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

I think you're misunderstanding.  Stasis is the problem there - without guns you are forcing the infested to run up to you, that is how their poison auras hurt you.  You're meant to be killing them from a distance, not up close with melee - as Stasis would force you to do.  They aren't dying when it ends - they're dying when it gets cast.  

Letting go of stasis wouldn't be the killer, keeping it up would.  The problem is they can't cope WITH it - because a group of level 80 Toxic Eximi who walk up to a crowd of players trying to melee them is going to wipe the whole squad.  Get rid of stasis and you can actually shoot them before they run up to you and poison you.

I said and i quote myself  "i would pop stasis at the best opportunity so that the toxic enemy could be killed". In other words, get rid of stasis so that people can shoot the toxic enemies at a distance, then go back to melee so that you can safely kill everything else without being swarmed. One thing that i am seeing as a thing from these threads is that there isn't an endgame melee to go with endgame guns, but that is another matter. 

[Snib]

11 minutes ago, Demonreaper. said:

I said and i quote myself  "i would pop stasis at the best opportunity so that the toxic enemy could be killed". In other words, get rid of stasis so that people can shoot the toxic enemies at a distance, then go back to melee so that you can safely kill everything else without being swarmed. One thing that i am seeing as a thing from these threads is that there isn't an endgame melee to go with endgame guns, but that is another matter. 

Hardly, melee is ridiculously OP with the right mods. The problem that people are trying to explain to you is that you are forcing 3 other players to use melee when they may not even have one equipped or at least not want to use it. And even if I wanted to use melee I wouldn't want to do it in a stasis bubble because it's so much less effective chasing after the spread out enemies rather than just mass killing them in the middle. 

You may be well intentioned but effectively you are a griefer. Still, the public matchmaking option gives you that right, nobody is forced to stay and play with you.

[Eirshy]

The thing that annoys me about max range + stasis builds is that min range is just as effective at defending a point, but doesn't dictate how others should play.

Also protip for anybody wanting to counter a max range stasis limbo, Pox has a massively boosted projectile count for breaking Stasis. Do with this knowledge what you will. While I agree with OP that telling the limbo he can't play how he wants sucks, he's the one that brought the build that brought up the question. He's the aggressor here, not the other players. And again, especially since min range is just as effective but doesn't tell others how to play.

 

As for people not sure what Banish is for, it's for keeping rescue targets and eidolon lures alive.

Edited December 21, 2017 by TheBlueJelly

[Snib]

15 minutes ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Also protip for anybody wanting to counter a max range stasis limbo, Pox has a massively boosted projectile count for breaking Stasis. Do with this knowledge what you will.

Love the Pox but I rarely see one. There's a number of weapons that do that. Ignis does it in two shots (of non-continuous fire), Sonicor in 4 shots, I remember Zarr alt-fire being pretty good as well (don't remember the shots it takes), etc.

15 minutes ago, TheBlueJelly said:

As for people not sure what Banish is for, it's for keeping rescue targets and eidolon lures alive.

Don't forget the Haven augment.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Snib

[Eirshy]

3 minutes ago, Snib said:

Love the Pox but I rarely see one. There's a number of weapons that do that. Ignis does it in two shots (of non-continuous fire), Sonicor in 4 shots, I remember Zarr alt-fire being pretty good as well (don't remember the shots it takes), etc.

Don't forget the Haven augment.

Will have to test Sonicor for it, though since it no longer doubles as the Tenno Space Program Gun due to the blast glitch nerf (well, no longer *reliably* does), I haven't pulled it out for a while.

On Haven, definitely that too. Bonus, it scales to power strength.

[Snib]

3 minutes ago, TheBlueJelly said:

On Haven, definitely that too. Bonus, it scales to power strength.

Yep, my usual non-solo build has 200% power strength for a instant 50% heal, it's very useful.

Unfortunately there is currently a bug where players sometimes get stuck in the rift and can't roll out, you need to drop cataclysm on them to get them out.

[Eirshy]

Just now, Snib said:

Yep, my usual non-solo build has 200% power strength for a instant 50% heal, it's very useful.

Unfortunately there is currently a bug where players sometimes get stuck in the rift and can't roll out, you need to drop cataclysm on them to get them out.

Will have to keep that in mind. Right now most of my Limbo experimentation is targetted towards Terry runs. The Rift is immune to all but Starfall, and if I can find a way to temporarily push Terry into the rift with Cataclysm I can shindeiru him on the last phase by freezing a bunch of Lanka shots. I'm also wondering if Banish on the lures would be enough to allow an Oberon to keep them alive through Starfall. That was iirc the only problem me and my friend were having with trying to sub Trin with Oberon, and the added radiation damage he can hand out would be lovely for TTK sans Chroma.

[Snib]

2 minutes ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Will have to keep that in mind. Right now most of my Limbo experimentation is targetted towards Terry runs. The Rift is immune to all but Starfall, and if I can find a way to temporarily push Terry into the rift with Cataclysm I can shindeiru him on the last phase by freezing a bunch of Lanka shots. I'm also wondering if Banish on the lures would be enough to allow an Oberon to keep them alive through Starfall. That was iirc the only problem me and my friend were having with trying to sub Trin with Oberon, and the added radiation damage he can hand out would be lovely for TTK sans Chroma.

To be honest that sounds awfully complicated when you can just bring a Chroma or at least some other buffer. From experience I can say that if you bring Limbo to the hunt you typically don't need a healer at all (unless your TTK is really long and he keeps throwing attacks at you I guess). I still prefer a Trin though, it's usually smoother and keeps everyone and their cats topped off incl. the Chroma who needs to self-damage.

[Eirshy]

13 minutes ago, Snib said:

To be honest that sounds awfully complicated when you can just bring a Chroma or at least some other buffer. From experience I can say that if you bring Limbo to the hunt you typically don't need a healer at all (unless your TTK is really long and he keeps throwing attacks at you I guess). I still prefer a Trin though, it's usually smoother and keeps everyone and their cats topped off incl. the Chroma who needs to self-damage.

Always using the meta is boring as hell. Additionally, Chroma can mis-time his buffs or get an unlucky status proc and actually go down. He's nowhere near as stable as people seem to think. And that's also to say nothing for the fact that just Chroma + Trin doesn't provide magnetic proc avoidance for the screams. And also.... given my Lanka riven my solo TTK isn't actually significantly worse than Chroma's. Like, we're talking well under 10 shots for the last phase, and my riven drops the charge time to under half a second.

How often were you having to re-banish with Haven? 'cause that starfall attack was pretty brutal on my health, but then, my min range build only lives because of Rift and QT, so that might be why.

My friend and I get 5-6 min with rather casual duoing, so it'd only be 0-2 starfalls. But I'm also worried about having to recast it.

Does Banish get dispelled by Cataclysm, or do the lures remain banished if they touch a cataclysm?

Edited December 21, 2017 by TheBlueJelly

[Snib]

1 minute ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Always using the meta is boring as hell. Additionally, Chroma can mis-time his buffs or get an unlucky status proc and actually go down. He's nowhere near as stable as people seem to think. And that's also to say nothing for the fact that just Chroma + Trin doesn't provide magnetic proc avoidance for the screams.

A properly built Chroma won't go down and self-buffing takes <1 second so timing is kinda irrelevant. And the meta avoids the EMP with a Harrow, but it's just a minor convenience really, personally I prefer to slot another buffer and either just void dash the frames out of the way or keep them in a Zenurik bubble.

If you want to go non-meta there's countless options. Have you tried an Amesha archwing, for example? Easy-mode healing and status immunity. 

1 minute ago, TheBlueJelly said:

How often were you having to re-banish with Haven? 'cause that starfall attack was pretty brutal on my health....
My friend and I get 5-6 min with rather casual duoing, so it'd only be 0-2 starfalls. But I'm also worried about having to recast it.

I never ran Limbo myself for the Teralyst, just with one in the group, so can't really answer to what duration he was running (you can't banish something that's already in the rift).

At the end of the day it comes down to kill time. More even than the Chroma it's the damage you put into the shields that determine the speed of the whole thing - here's where Volt shield + Adarza buffs really help (and of course proper amps, ideally with arcane) - you then get to the point where he's only standing upright for mere seconds so he doesn't really have time to attack you a lot.

1 minute ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Does Banish get dispelled by Cataclysm, or do the lures remain banished if they touch a cataclysm?

Cataclysm overwrites banish and rift walk.

[Azamagon]

Rift Surge is almost worse than Stasis (almost)

Banish you can roll out of. Cataclysm you can at least play inside or outside.
Stasis, we all know; You have to melee, deal abilitydamage or ruin Stasis. It's just not nice for your teammates (or a Limbo being trolled in reverse with early Stasis-breakups, even though the Limbo was not necessarily trying to troll himself).

But Rift Surge. Urgh. If you cause a cascade of Rift Surge on enemies, and Limbo doesn't allow you into the Rift ... well, then you ONLY have abilitydamage to deal with this rifted enemies. I consider it both a huge annoyance AND redundant (because Banish could fulfill this roll if it was fixed).

Proposals:

* Banish -> Single-target effect when tap-cast, but will affect nearby enemies as now when hold-cast. Banish may once again affect targets on either side of the Rift regardless of Limbo's state, and hold-casting will only affect units who share the target's faction alignment and Rift status. Banishing hostile units who stand within Cataclysm will expel them from Cataclysm. Enemies within the Rift may not use control panels or environmental objects which remain outside of the Rift.
* Stasis -> Now drains a small amount of energy over time for each enemy caught in stasis (note, this would NOT interupt energy gains from Zenurik/Energyvamp etc), and no longer interacts with projectiles at all.
Further, Stasis is now working on an individual basis, not as a general function (so, having more than one Limbo in the squad doesn't frustrate the Limbos, as they can no longer cancel each others' Stasis etc.)
This means: Allies no longer trolled (nor can allies end Stasis early), Limbo has to actively kill his caught enemies if he wants to not lose energy too quickly (encouraging fighting), and also has natural synergy with his kill-enemies-in-the-Rift-for-energy-passive, and finally: Limbos can't troll one another.
* Rift Surge -> Basicly, old Rift Surge -> Increasing Limbo's damage in the Rift, but with the addition of granting him have a few instances (like 5-ish) of damageblock (a la the Amesha Archwing), the damageblock working on either side of Rift. If you lose all damageblocks, Rift Surge ends early.
* Cataclysm -> Also draws in all control panels and environmental objects, allowing players and enemies to interact with them from within the Rift. Exiting or detonating Cataclysm will no longer remove Limbo from the Rift. Killing an enemy in Cataclysm adds its max health to the damage of fhe end-explosion of Cataclysm (allowing for some real nuking with it again, but requires buildup and placing Cataclysm well).
Cataclysm's augment -> In addition, having this augment installed causes Catalysm to not shrink anymore.
* General rift mechanics -> Channeled melee can strike enemies across the Rift (from normal plane to Rift, and vice versa)! Imo, this is rather awesome; It makes sense AND serves as an anti-troll function!

^ Rather elegant, if I may say so (huge thanks to a lot of ideas from @Archwizard)

Edited December 21, 2017 by Azamagon

[Snib]

The whole gimmick of stasis is stopping projectiles though, if you take that away it's just a much weaker Bastille basically. If you want to redesign Limbo again you need to take away stasis completely.

If you go back to the original rift surge you need to take the damage from cataclysm away again.

The "problem" with Limbo is the basic idea of the frame, the rift plane itself. As long as you have that there will always be players on the wrong plane at the wrong time. That's why you can't really "fix" him. And personally I don't think he needs to be fixed, the frame excels at what it does.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

7 hours ago, Demonreaper. said:

I said and i quote myself  "i would pop stasis at the best opportunity so that the toxic enemy could be killed". In other words, get rid of stasis so that people can shoot the toxic enemies at a distance, then go back to melee so that you can safely kill everything else without being swarmed. One thing that i am seeing as a thing from these threads is that there isn't an endgame melee to go with endgame guns, but that is another matter. 

Well then it's a wording issue - popping a power means casting it, to most gamers.  

[(PSN)psycofang]

On 12/18/2017 at 4:36 PM, Xardis said:

And to those that will tell me - it would be too op, nope, look at excal, rad loki, valkyr and many other frames that can cc enemies hard.

You just pointed out a huge problem with this game, uncontrolled blatant CC and shut down tactics. Limbo gives CC and takes something (barely) but other frames give and give and are never kept in check which is why the community hates limbo, not because hes bad but because everything else has no draw back to spamming.

 

On 12/19/2017 at 10:22 AM, Ada_Wong_SG said:

It is very hard to play a limbo properly, because his skills will certainly interrupt other players one way or another.

Its not hard to play Limbo properly, its that players themselves those that play Limbo and those that do not are inherently the issue. 

A lot of Limbo players do not realise you do not need stasis until levels 60+ if youre properly built and many are.

Your stupidly high damage unchecked practically unlimited ammo auto rifles/crowd wipers will do just fine right along with the 80% probability youre in a group with 3 damage/CC spamming monstrosities. 

Playing Limbo requires knowing things that players who play/main/test or whine about Limbo refuse to realize:

Rift walk is your main used power, banish for low levels, rift walk for mid levels and stasis/cataclysm for very high levels.

He scales disproportionately like Nidus/Chroma do.

Minimum range builds are mostly for defense runs sans survival. The point of these isnt to kill but to stop and wipe mobs, you all know the build so im not explaining it, the general play is your banish is useful at levels 10-20 (because itll 1 shot) then 50-9999 

Level 30-50 is where a large majority of the community stay and said area is where very little harm comes to Limbo.

Max range builds are ment for mid level missions with cramped spaces to force literally everything into the rift with no chance to leave, the point is not to use stasis (its not required) but to power your damage (rift torrent) while giving others energy regen while mobs have no choice but to spawn in the cataclysm.

High strength/ normal range/duration is Limbos infinitely scaling build ment for survivals and wide range defense maps. 

The issue here isnt Limbo, it never was, its the game enabling 1 dimensional play styles that drags down and kills any acceptance of complexity or uniqueness concerning mechanics.

Players are used to pressing their buttons and turning on god mode, which is fine but boring imo, there are no rules and youre only restricted by a negligible energy requirement that was thrown out the window a long time ago.

Enemies for a majority of the star map just cant fight back and most die unseen. 

Playing Limbo is not hard, once you learn him all it takes is the self awareness to not be stupid and press things that do not need to be pressed but

Players are too used to playing a frame 1 way and approaching with them 1 way.

The player base is too used to doing just that, hitting their powers and getting benefit confetti, no rules, no trades, no balance but will deride this game for its lack of balance but will deride any attempt at it as well.

Limbo should be toned down or changed because the inexperienced are misusing him in easy portions of the star map? I disagree.

A frames complexity and survivability shouldnt be tampered with to create yet another brainless 1 dimensional object to appease the majority who will never actually make use of their powers beyond 10 waves of power leveling in hydron.

Limbo is not the problem, sans hacking which should be addressed.

Any time i read a stasis is bad argument all i read are "possibilities" yet never once seen a concrete video of a player popping in to a random Limbo and experiencing this in the age of easy mode YT uploading.

 

Not saying it DOESNT happen but i have a hard time believing its happening at the frequency people are claiming, part of me believes its just bandwagon claims and over exaggerations.

All i read are possibilities

-What if i dont want to melee/dont have a good melee

So youre telling me you came in with no melee and youre frame is utterly incapable of doing damage? 

Youre also claiming that the other 2 members ALSO are in level 30+ content with no damage powers nor melee weapons nor carrying any if the MANY high  stasis bullet count primaries/secondaries to force it off?

-what if we're in low level content?

Banish 1 shots everything and cataclysm will grind mobs to death if stasis is on. 

All i read are what ifs and from personal experience whenever i meet a limbo as i play any other frame and they stasis i shoot 1-4 times and it turns off.

If they do it again you do it again 

It usually only takes two times for the learning Limbo to get it.

Players and how they approach a frames use are the problem, not Limbo.

Dont take this as an insult, im texting in the most neutral tone possible. 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[Ada_Wong_SG]

4 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

-snip-

 

Tell that to all the limbo players.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Xardis]

4 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

You just pointed out a huge problem with this game, uncontrolled blatant CC and shut down tactics. Limbo gives CC and takes something (barely) but other frames give and give and are never kept in check which is why the community hates limbo, not because hes bad but because everything else has no draw back to spamming.

I also pointed out the problem with statis, there is no way to know if the bullets you shot will kill the enemy. And in some cases, like Opticor, Ferrox and mostly beam weapons, the shots arent even registered. 2 weapons that supposedly should have been use by limbo - look at the art on first loading screns from those 2 updates that we got the weapons, are unusable in stasis.

You forget that everything in warframe has some drawbacks, most hard CC has its hard limits, Loki cannot stop the enemies, only disarm them. After a short period excals blind wears off or if it has longer duration, enemies can move and escape. Most CC that stops enemies in their tracks has very low duration and range. I agree that Limbo should trade something for the power of stopping everything in the rift. But the way its done now is not the way to go. For starters, do not hide the information like if enemy you shot at will live. And maybe make all weapons work within stasis. Its supposed to freeze a bullet in time, not delete it.

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Tell that to all the limbo players.

I do but theres only one of me. Oh that whole thing wasnt aimed at you btw, just used your comment as a spring board.

56 minutes ago, Xardis said:

You forget that everything in warframe has some drawbacks, most hard CC has its hard limits

Let me see here

Loki can mass disarm mobs while they beat each other to death

Ivara can sleep whole rooms while staying invisible

Rhino cab stomp the ground and turn off the map, anyone survive? Do it again! 

Mobs dont suddenly start resisting sound quake, they get locked until they die especially if the banshee is smart

Vauban has 0 limits and has an augment (2 of them) that gravitate towards that disturbing play style

Harrows CC has limits unless you start spamming it then its a hallway of statues 

Sleepquinox has 0 limitations

Nova...we really bout to talk about that 4?

Nidus bugs n nests no draw backs

Listen friend CC and damage powers are unchecked, using Loki as an example of a draw back? What draw back? He makes mobs over a massive range stop shooting and give them all a high chance to hit each other for the duration while you slide in with your damage boosted plague maim staves wiping crowds.

And it takes nothing from you to do it.

Same with Vauban/Nova/Banshee/Equinox/Rhino/ivara/mag (to an extent)/Harrow/Nidus etc blah blah blah.

There are no draw backs, none and limitations? Im not seeing them.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

On 12/18/2017 at 11:52 PM, Ajwf said:

Stasis is always the problem ability for Limbo. Like people complain about cataclysm but promptly beg for a frost to exist whenever they have to defend literally anything. Besides range, Cataclysm and Frost's bubble are very similar. Difference being, enemies inside a Frost bubble can still attack an objective and cataclysm has no slow. You can't fire in from the outside against either. And the range of cataclysm makes it easier to play around, being large enough to comfortably have space between you and your target while skirting the edge.

No man not the same thing at all. Rift mechanics can't in any way compare to the simplicity of a snow globe, even with the augment. If you are defending a target and have a snow globe, the whole point it to prevent shoots from hitting whatever is in the center, and be able to shoot out of it from the inside. Being inside the rift effectively removes you from the mission, unless you are purely using powers for dmg, a rarity amongst the playerbase. And I am one of those players who essentially default to melee so in actually I rarely ever felt the frustration of a limbo cause I would just melee the thing if it wouldn't go down by shots.  I didn't even know this was really a thing and I don't even typically see limbos out alot. Rift mechanics are so convoluted it's a miracle DE ever bothered to make this thing in the first place.

These mechanics only work if you have a coordinated group of players and you communicate. In fact, I was kinda confused about all the hate because the only real experience I had with a limbo was when me and former clan friend of mine 2 man a really difficult event involving manics. Just for lolz he brought a limbo and I think I bought a Valkyr and we KILLED it. He figured out using the rift worked and we were able to cut through the event while most people were yelling about how unfair it was because it was like veritable FLOOD of manics which would rush you, and if I am not mistaken this was their first iteration. But then again he would clearly communicate what he was going to do and we worked together. You know like in a cooperative game?

So yeah man you are talking about very small test cases. If someone is deliberately using their powers to prevent someone from playing the game for no benefit that's just bad etiquette and shouldn't be allowed or encouraged or accepted. People wanna use limbo, they have to accept that they will have to coordinate and make sure everyone is on the same page about what is going to happen. Or go solo or only play with your friends who don't mind getting trolled.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[viperveteran]

My choice will depend on what I wanted to do before selecting the match. If I wanted a firefight I will just leave if I am not the host. If I wanted to melee or just chill I will stay.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

6 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

I do but theres only one of me. Oh that whole thing wasnt aimed at you btw, just used your comment as a spring board.

 

That is basically the inherent issue with all the warframes and weapons or whatever infrastructure being implemented into the game, 
there is no clear cut restriction or measures to safe guard the potential of abuse.

To make matter worse, it could be just plain coincidence or poor proficiency with usage of equipment that could led to
negative result arising from simple a player who doesn't know how to use limbo properly.

Thinking that banishing a teammate actually is protecting them without realizing the full negative aspect 
such as a player hacking a terminal.

Still such simple "unpolished" feature could be refined by re-tuning Limbo to be more cohesive with the team.
 

I remembered greedy pull Mag used to be a nuisance because a selfish player could exploit it to pull all the loots over, 
before the carrier even have vacuum, and having your loots pulled off and unable to pick up, while having the whole team
extracting at wave 5 of a defense mission, you have to decide whether you are going to solo the next 5 waves for the loot 
or leave without taking the loots. Which has caused a lot of pissed off players more than the benefits.

Or switch teleport Loki using players who move faster than them, and switch them out of the extraction point 
by exploiting the teammate as a spring board, while the one who reached the extraction first is being trolled to a certain extend.

Better still Mesa's peacemaker and Ash's blade storm before a "nerf" that actually stop them from killing the whole map without 

more input than simple "press 4 to win"


Even now Ember's World on Fire and Banshee's Quake is still being debated as something than is fun only to the player 

and serve to spoil the day for everyone else.

 

TL:DR 
Currently Limbo is too "troll friendly" and the potential of him being misused is way higher 
than a lot of other frames around, surely all frames could be exploited to certain extend, but currently
Limbo is still my top ranked "troll frame". As my personal encounter speaks for itself, I am not sure how fortunate is everyone else in meeting good Limbo users.

 

Or it could be any players with slightly more sense/ insight would have realized the potential negativity and avoided using Limbo unless specifically required by squad.

Thus leaving the unskilled, or potential trolls around to spread the poor image of Limbo.

 

Limbo is kind of like a Lenz, except it does team-pissing instead of self-damage easily.

Not everyone has the patience to understand, friendly fire and enemy fire hurt equally bad.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Ada_Wong_SG