Ember's WoF discussion; Does it deserve the hate?

[MagPrime]

6 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

So we can't allow veteran players to kill faster than newbies? That doesn't seem right. If a player quits a game or gets bored because a veteran has more gear than them and is more efficient, then they wouldn't enjoy Warframe or any MMO for that matter.

Not what I posted, not even close.  

Vets going to new player content on Public and preventing players from doing the mission is the issue, not that the Vet has more gear.  You've been here long enough to have seen the multitude of topics about how annoying it is for new players (posts and topics made by new players) to have a Vet come in and do the mission for them.  

And I'd stay away from sweeping generalizations.  You don't know, nor can you, how everyone gains enjoyment from the game.  I've been here for 4 years, thoroughly enjoy Warframe and I still get annoyed when someone brings in a map wipe frame and prevents me from doing anything for the entire mission. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by MagPrime

[Tora.Prime]

Don't deserve hate, WoF can't kill at high lvls, only do cc and thats not overpowered

[Kintair]

16 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Ember isn't even the slightest over powered or anything of that sort. World on Fire doesn't scale. People get mad because they want fairness and want everyone to have equal kills. That's why the Telos Boltace was nerfed into oblivion, why Synoid Simulor is now junk, and why Maiming Strike is in the headlights.

This is a PvE game, and complaining about things like WoF is beyond me as it makes your mission easier and more efficient.

It's not a question of equal kills, it's a question of equal difficulty against equal enemies. Not everything needs to perform exactly the same in all situations, but when you have a massive outlier in either direction (particularly for 'frames) it should be brought in line. I can explain why in more detail if you'd like.

But as for Ember, she's a flat-damage dealer who excells at applying her danage over a large area because she can move while her World on Fire is active. Just like with any flat damage, it will obliterate anything below a certain level, making her amazing for lower levels but not nearly as good later.

For players who consider "playing the game" to be collecting loot, having an Ember is fine. The Ember will kill everything and they can just sit back and reap the rewards. For players who consider "playing the game" to be running, gunning, and ability use, having an Ember ruins the experience because they'll have nothing to "play" with.

I don't think we need to nerf Ember, personally. What we need to do is get similarly-minded people together. Matchmaking is in desperate need of a 2.0.

[Cryptix123]

1 minute ago, Kintair said:

 

I don't think we need to nerf Ember, personally. What we need to do is get similarly-minded people together. Matchmaking is in desperate need of a 2.0.

This honestly. I'd love something like Halo 3's matchmaking, where when you jump onto multiplayer (or open navigation in this case) it asks you a few questions on what kind of experience you're looking for. A Casual game, looking to farm, trying to grind MR etc.

[Voltage]

16 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Not what I posted, not even close.  

Vets going to new player content on Public and preventing players from doing the mission is the issue, not that the Vet has more gear.  You've been here long enough to have seen the multitude of topics about how annoying it is for new players (posts and topics made by new players) to have a Vet come in and do the mission for them.  

And I'd stay away from sweeping generalizations.  You don't know, nor can you, how someone gains enjoyment from the game.  I've been here for 4 years, thoroughly enjoy Warframe and I still get annoyed when someone brings in a map wipe frame and prevents me from doing anything for the entire mission. 

A veteran is a veteran, and a new player is a new player. Anytime you put both into ANY mission, the outcome will always be similar. The Veteran will almost always carry the new player because since they have done it for the 400th time, they will speed through it. I don't care if it spy, capture, or exterminate. 

If you get mad someone clears enemies quickly, play by yourself or with people who play how you do. You can't make anyone play at your pace. If you and others with a similar mindset to tone down Ember and similar playstyles, you will just whine that the Volt with Scoliac or the Equinox didn't let you play. Efficient tactics will always exist, and we can compare this to Draco and XP Farms.

Viver is Saryn, nuking away. DE nerfs saryn, so we get Draco (mesa). Now Mesa gets nerfed because of the "OP pls nerf" mentality, and we get Limbo (Hydron). Players complain Limbo is out of line and DE nerfs that too. It's NEVER GOING TO END.

Everyone who thinks ember needs a nerf will then complain Octavia and Equinox or OP, and they will end up like Ash: Useless, unfun, and boring as hell.

Edited January 9, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[xXDeadsinxX]

10 minutes ago, DarthBane1 said:

And this is what killed Ash. People complaining about nuke powers. 

It mainly killed it for players that liked to spam abilities. I for one, don’t see it bad. Ash’s rework was a pretty good rework. The only thing that I would have liked to see different is the cincematic during Bladestorm.

[MagPrime]

Just now, Nation_X said:

Then leave and join another. Game isnt based around catering for your needs

Please go over both my posts and find where I posted anything about my needs being catered to.

Just now, --Q--Voltage said:

A veteran is a veteran, and a new player is a new player. Anytime you put both into ANY mission, the outcome will always be similar. The Veteran will almost always carry the new player because since they have done it for the 400th time, they will speed through it. I don't care if it spy, capture, or exterminate. 

If you get mad someone clears enemies quickly, play by yourself or with people who play how you do. You can't make anyone play at your pace. If you and others with a similar mindset get Ember nerfed, you will just whine that the Volt with Scoliac or the Equinox didn't let you play. Efficient tactics will always exist, and we can compare this to Draco and XP Farms.

Viver is Saryn, nuking away. DE nerfs saryn, so we get Draco (mesa). Now Mesa gets nerfed because of the "OP pls nerf" mentality, and we get Limbo (Hydron). Players complain Limbo is out of line and DE nerfs that too. It's NEVER GOING TO END.

Everyone who thinks ember needs a nerf will then complain Octavia and Equinox or OP, and they will end up like Ash: Useless, unfun, and boring as hell.

Please go over  both my posts and find where I said anything about nerfing Ember.  

Also, go read my posts again.  Both of them.  You've missed some critical points.  

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Please go over both my posts and find where I posted anything about my needs being catered to.

Please go over  both my posts and find where I said anything about nerfing Ember.  

Also, go read my posts again.  Both of them.  You've missed some critical points.  

You claim Ember and map clearing frames are a problem in low levels. Low level can be interpreted differently depending on who you ask. For me, low level is anything under 70. Ember is Capable of clearing even Sortie 3 using weapons with and without Riven Mods. You would need to tone down ember to fix your problem, otherwise, you would have to prevent new players from being matched with veterans.

[MagPrime]

27 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

You claim Ember and map clearing frames are a problem in low levels. Low level can be interpreted differently depending on who you ask. For me, low level is anything under 70. Ember is Capable of clearing even Sortie 3 using weapons with and without Riven Mods. You would need to tone down ember to fix your problem, otherwise, you would have to prevent new players from being matched with veterans.

"My problem"?  

I'm not sure you've even reading my posts.  Go in game, check my Warframe usage stats.  Ember is in my top 3 most used Warframes - I don't have a problem with her.  My initial post was based on my observations of how she's used by other players and how it effects everyone else, and how the perception of the Warframe would change is she were used differently.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

I claimed that Ember and other nuke Warframes are problem for newer players in low level content, not that they were a problem period.  Seriously, read my posts to understand them, not just to respond to them.

At no point did I ever say I had a problem with Ember, you've taken it upon yourself to infer that and create an issue. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by MagPrime

[RayxAyanami]

27 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Blanket answer; yes.

In depth answer; Yes.  Most Ember players I've known will take her into lower level missions and just map wipe because they find it faster and easier.  The main problem with this is 95% of the time, they're in Public matchmaking, which puts them with newer players who actually want to participate in the mission.  But, having an older player with a max range/strength WoF Ember who has 200 pancakes on hotkey...  

The ability itself isn't the problem, it's how it's be used that's causing the issues.  If Ember were seen in more higher level content and less lower level content, I'm willing to be it would be a drastically different conversation. 

Ember doesn't scale, making her "Efficient" only in lower to mid level content unless you have the right team. I don't understand how people can find this unfair, specially new players. 

A "Fix" for this "Problem" would be adding an option to Team up with players who are at an equal-ish MR. This has nothing to do with the frame or its ultimate. Ember is balanced, a Glass Cannon, on the contrary, Saryn doesn't get hated on at all, having a max range of spores almost 3x of WoF, the ability to heal herself with an augment, A decoy that draws enemy fire and all in all being Poisons AF ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). A decent build can literally clear out most of the map with a few spores. Ember gets hated on for the same reason Rhino does, Giving players amazing performance for little effort.


Seriously,  no one can hate ember  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Spoiler

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by RayxAyanami

[phoenix1992]

Does DE deserve the hate for refusing to introduce new content and pigeon holding players into content they have outgrew since MR 5?

Does the WF community deserve the hate for not knowing that there are abilities that do the same as WoF but a lot stronger and potent?

Does Limbo deserve the hate? (yes)

Will DE stop pretending they give a *clem* about balance, while allowing for atterax and 4-3 dispo rivens on meta weapons to be a thing?

And is WoF to blame for some salt?

One of the question is "no", guess which.

[trunks013]

5 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

"My problem"?  

I'm not sure you've even reading my posts.  Go in game, check my Warframe usage stats.  Ember is in my top 3 most used Warframes - I don't have a problem with her.  My initial post was based on my observations of how she's used by other players and how it effects everyone else, and how the perception of the Warframe would change is she were used differently.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

At no point did I ever say I had a problem with Ember, you've taken it upon yourself to infer that and create an issue. 

So basicly a lot of tenno didn't saw the fact that you are talking about High Mr tenno nuking low level map in public making new tenno wonder what happen the problem

rather than the actual frame in this case Ember.

We could say the same thing about saryn or equinox ^.^ 

Its like what the fourth time we talk about this together. I remember stating that i usualy literaly WALK super slowly with akmagnus and shoot only when someone is shooting at me to let new tenno get a shot a something.

Edited January 9, 2018 by trunks013

[MagPrime]

3 minutes ago, trunks013 said:

So basicly a lot of tenno didn't saw the fact that you are talking about High Mr tenno nuking low level map in public making new tenno wonder what happen the problem rather than the actual frame in this case Ember.

We could say the same thing about saryn or equinox ^.^ 

I've seen the same said about Saryn, Equinox, and just about any other nuke frame in the game.  But, this is specifically about Ember, so I was leaving them out of it.  ^.^

And they did see that I was talking about that, they just felt the need to go full salt train for no apparent reason and start responding to things I never posted. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by MagPrime

[(XBOX)AyersyBears]

Does Ember deserve hate? Probably not. Does she need nerfing? I don't think so.

It's where and how she's used that seems to be the issue. Ember's great for clearing low-level content, which is fine.....but it's literally where all the newer players are. Discovering a kick-&#! ninja parkour horde killing game, to find that you're literally useless and can't actually participate at all because a more experienced, higher MR player, is trying to farm the mission efficently and quickly by sitting in World on Fire constantly.

Honestly I feel that if matchmaking put some kind of priority in people at similar MR to you, this issue wouldn't be as prominent. Alternatively, if an experienced player loaded into a low level mission with some newbies, maybe lay off the World on Fire unless it was really needed.
 

Edited January 9, 2018 by (XB1)AyersyBears
Can't spell.

[Stonehenge]

"Does it deserve the hate?"

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Stonehenge

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Ember needs a way to scale. WoF doesn't concern me.

[MagPrime]

11 minutes ago, RayxAyanami said:

Ember doesn't scale, making her "Efficient" only in lower to mid level content unless you have the right team. I don't understand how people can find this unfair, specially new players. 

Do a forum search, there are plenty of topics that go over this.

11 minutes ago, RayxAyanami said:

A "Fix" for this "Problem" would be adding an option to Team up with players who are at an equal-ish MR.

This has been suggested for years now.  Do a forum search. 

12 minutes ago, RayxAyanami said:

This has nothing to do with the frame or its ultimate. Ember is balanced, a Glass Cannon, on the contrary, Saryn doesn't get hated on at all, having a max range of spores almost 3x of WoF, the ability to heal herself with an augment, A decoy that draws enemy fire and all in all being Poisons AF ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). A decent build can literally clear out most of the map with a few spores. Ember gets hated on for the same reason Rhino does, Giving players amazing performance for little effort.

This has everything to do with her ult.  Ember gets hated on because of how she's played, i.e., removing the participation for the rest of the team.  

[meristu]

yes ember deserves it ... all frames that are press 1 button and go afk should be reworked - cc whole defense map mira, global spikes nezha, banshee, saryn, ash you know what I mean already ... and stuff like exca or valkyr are trash too but at least you have to move around ..

 

super fast space ninjas and all you do is stand one spot and do nothing, you should use all your tools in balance not just turn into static afk turret

[AperoBeltaTwo]

 Adress all the criticism towards the people who designed abilities like that into the game. Ember used to be much weaker compared to top game content. Now it's adequate to pretty much everything - without being buffed. It's not the particular warframe's fault that enemy levels in the game get lower and missions shorter with each update, making the most brain-dead of ember builds more and more practical. If anything Ember isn't the only warframe like that and definitely not the strongest. The problem is with the gameplay (or I should say lack of it).

Edited January 9, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Jarriaga]

I have no issues with WoF, SQ, or any other "broken" ability or mod. This is a PvE game. I get affinity and loot from teammate kills. Other players killing more enemies than me doesn't affect me.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 minutes ago, meristu said:

yes ember deserves it ... all frames that are press 1 button and go afk should be reworked - cc whole defense map mira, global spikes nezha, banshee, saryn, ash you know what I mean already ... and stuff like exca or valkyr are trash too but at least you have to move around ..

 

super fast space ninjas and all you do is stand one spot and do nothing, you should use all your tools in balance not just turn into static afk turret

 The problem is, there's no gameplay for those tools. Even without ember, we have ridiculously braindead and overpowered melee builds (not even talking about maiming strike right now), where you just press one button repeatedly and everything dies.

Edited January 9, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[R3b3ll10n90s]

No, WoF don't wipe the map clean by just Orz in the same spot.

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, meristu said:

yes ember deserves it ... all frames that are press 1 button and go afk should be reworked - cc whole defense map mira, global spikes nezha, banshee, saryn, ash you know what I mean already ... and stuff like exca or valkyr are trash too but at least you have to move around ..

Ask Ash and Mag how that's going. They both got nerfed for gibbing enemies with a button press, and now *shocker*, very few use them at all anymore.

Having the nerf mentality proves to destroy what this game is built upon (being overpowered to the hoardes). Ember is completely fine, and nerfing every AoE frame makes them all another Ash when it comes to choices.

[Urabask]

45 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Not what I posted, not even close.  

Vets going to new player content on Public and preventing players from doing the mission is the issue, not that the Vet has more gear.  You've been here long enough to have seen the multitude of topics about how annoying it is for new players (posts and topics made by new players) to have a Vet come in and do the mission for them.  

And I'd stay away from sweeping generalizations.  You don't know, nor can you, how everyone gains enjoyment from the game.  I've been here for 4 years, thoroughly enjoy Warframe and I still get annoyed when someone brings in a map wipe frame and prevents me from doing anything for the entire mission. 

Most of the new player content that vets participate in are alerts, invasions and fissures.  That's not really new player content, it's just on the same node.

You could argue that some interception/defense nodes used for relic/affinity farming are new player content but that also makes up a very small portion of what new players are doing and they benefit from it anyways.

13 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

This has everything to do with her ult.  Ember gets hated on because of how she's played, i.e., removing the participation for the rest of the team.  

So play content where she isn't good.  There's plenty of it.  What you're basically asking for is for a nerf to relic/affinity farming when it's already one of the most boring parts of the game.  A nerf to all the AoE frames would require a re-work of the reward/exp systems so that we don't all have to suffer when you ask for DE to shoot us in the foot.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Urabask

[MagPrime]

Just now, Urabask said:

Most of the new player content that vets participate in are alerts, invasions and fissures.  That's not really new player content, it's just on the same map.

You could argue that some interception/defense nodes used for relic/affinity farming are new player content but that also makes up a very small portion of what new players are doing and they benefit from it anyways.

So play content where she isn't good.  There's plenty of it.  What you're basically asking for is for a nerf to relic/affinity farming when it's already one of the most boring parts of the game.

Where did I post anything about nerfing her?  Please, find the post and highlight the text where I outright, or even allude to, a nerf of any kind from DE.

And while we're at it, please post the stats that prove that new player content that vets participate in are only alerts, invasions and fissures.  I'm sure everyone here will be ecstatic to see player stats posted.