Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Wolfdoggie]

Wow, so many long overdue changes I've wanted for ages. Thanks for all your hard work.

 

[(PSN)RockNora]

U can use this PS4 account my Lord :)

[Vance.Stubbs]

8 minutes ago, Glavenusaur said:

Again, your making something that is most likely extremely difficult to manage sound like something you can just "wing it" there are tens if not hundreds of factors involved with balancing each and every aspect especially with games like warframe, but please... if you think you can do a better job, why not apply to be part of the dev team? i'm sure you're certainly qualified for the role at hand and can fix it in a day right?

Have you seen old rebalances by DE? Tweaking a few values for a weapon does sound like a "extremely difficult task involving hunderds of factors"? Also, why didn't DE think about those factors while reworking Limbo into an even worse vermin in pubs? 

Get a grip on reality already. Changing values is not a rocket science, I know it's hard for an attached white knight to beleive that devs are not doing God's work and many other game developers freely practice constant rebalances with community support and somehow they don't cry about balance being EXTEMELY DIFFICULT TO MANAGE!!!!!!!!

Edited February 3, 2018 by Vance.Stubbs

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Orblit said:

They're halving the ability's radius while doubling the damage + energy cost after a set timer...where's the nerf?

Cost * 2 == damage * 2

Range * 0.5 == ???

 

There's the nerf. Hitting two stats but only improving one.

Not only that simple, blindingly obvious unbalanced equation, BUT:

Range, being a radius, takes effect in three dimensions. Actual area of WoF (spherical volume) is therefore reduced by 50%*50%*50%.

The damage buff would need to be at least 8x to counterweigh that alone, not even counting an extra doubling for the actual cost.

So... 1600% damage WoF when?

[Kazzpoco]

Dear DE Staff

I have an opinion on the amendment of Ember.
It is for many formas and arcanes that Ember can do a great deal of damage in a wide range now.
I love Ember and I needed a lot of formas and arcane energize to make her passable even in end games.
DE, I am convinced that your suggestion is to eliminate the enormous efforts of myself and many ember lovers, and to eliminate Ember her  own value.
Beginners and intermediate players may certainly not do anything if there is a powerful Ember.
However, I believe that it will also deprive them of their desire "to be such a cool player".
I think that I need a lot of effort to make a build that Ember pass through with end games and they should pay attention to their efforts.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Kazzpoco

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, Kuestenjung said:

 

This isn´t a fact, it´s a dillusional point of view. DE is balancing stuff since the game exists, that doesn´t mean they are doing it right now, and I can garantuee you. It won´t be right now.

@Topic: This will actually do almost nothing for Embers scalling into lategame, cause fire alone will still scale really bad.

It is a fact. Players will complain about any change if its not straight up buff thats just how it is.

[-ECHO-Akrasiel.VI]

3 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

So then...Ash changes...and he still marks enemies....so I have to play seizure simulator still in order to actually mark them enough to make sure they die. Great.

Could you please at some point just completely redo Ash's forth ability? Just scrap it, burn it, and make something new. Even with these coming changes i'm not seeing the fun in using him. Maybe if it wasn't "Shake your screen rapidly to mark the enemy multiple times!" it would be better but at this point i'm just tired of the same power being tweaked to no real affect...

To top that off while enemies are locked in the animations of being stabbed my team mates can do NOTHING to them. CC? Nope. Debuff? Nope. Kill? Nope. They can do nothing to the target while it's being wounded by bladestorm, making it more of a hindrance at higher levels as it prevents team mates from debuffing(corrosive, blind, ect) while they are being 'mauled' by the clones/ash.

About that, long before the rework of ash bladestorm, someone on the forums suggested to turn it in a channeling skill, like valkyr, and give him invizibility and 2 wrist blades. That was a pretty good idea, but of course the devs thought it would be to OP.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

5 minutes ago, Kuestenjung said:

 

This isn´t a fact, it´s a dillusional point of view. DE is balancing stuff since the game exists, that doesn´t mean they are doing it right now, and I can garantuee you. It won´t be right now.

@Topic: This will actually do almost nothing for Embers scalling into lategame, cause fire alone will still scale really bad.

That's the thing I always felt needed to change about Ember. 

I mean, yeah, her 3 is awful and is really only useful for the Knockdown, yet the Energy Cost doesn't justify using it. Her 2 is fine and her 1 is completely worthless, even as a quick CC AoE bomb.

Yet it seems the real issue is just how Fire damage works in general. It deals little damage to Armor and Shields, and the one faction it'd be decent against, the Infested, have Ancients that reduce damage by 90% and further reduce ability damage with another type of Ancient.

It's not like Ice which deals okay damage against Health, shreds Shields, and in Frosts' case, makes up for its Armor damage problem by removing it. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by (XB1)Graysmog

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

2 minutes ago, Glavenusaur said:

We wont really know the full details till the balance gets patched in though will we? so the least people can do is actually wait and see how it works instead of complaining without any tangible basis to do so, like they've lost all meaning to their lives or something... jesus christ....

I am pretty sure I saw the dev workshop post saying they are gonna ramp up the damage in 10secs from 0% to 100% which means at it's best is 200%.

At the same time, they wrote the range will decrease slowly till it is 50%. That's half.

All while raising the energy cost which to be fair yes, we don't know how much yet.

Now, go test in silmucram with WOF without turning off AI. Run to a range that is half of WOF and see how fast the damage ticks are and imagine it to be 2 times faster.

That's more or less the change.

Maybe they might change it at release but otherwise it's pretty clear cut.

Damage X 2

Range / 2

Energy cost up

[Vayn31]

And what about buffing S#&$ty weapons? A lots of old weapons are just garbages like 75% of them even with a decent riven. You should focus first on that instead of frame balancing because we don't have so much variety about powercreap/efficiency or call it whatever in our arsenal. Thats sad because some weapons have fun mechanic but they really need a buff like you did with pyrana, sicarus and others i forgot to be viable at any level.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Vayn31

[Glavenusaur]

1 minute ago, Vance.Stubbs said:

Have you seen old rebalances by DE? Tweaking a few values for a weapon does sound like a "extremely difficult task involving hunderds of factors"? Also, why didn't DE think about those factors while reworking Limbo into an even worse vermin in pubs? 

Get a grip on reality already. Changing values is not a rocket science, I know it's hard for an attached white knight to beleive that devs are not doing God's work and many other game developers freely practice costant rebalances with community support and somehow they don't cry about balance being EXTEMELY DIFFICULT TO MANAGE!!!!!!!!

 

Again why make claims about how easy or hard something is when you have no idea on how to do it yourself, can you actually prove DE didn't think of other factors when they balanced the game earlier? where you in their dev meetings and discussions? the reality here is you have absolutely no idea how it works,

You should get a grip on a reality boy... you really think game balancing is a simple as "tweaking a few values"? like there's some sort of slider attached with which you just drag with your bloody mouse? how the hell  would you even know to begin with? 

[Neonite]

13 minutes ago, Vance.Stubbs said:

While old Overheat was definetely useful, I feel it messes with her "combat mage" role too much and plain 95% reduction is ridicilous anyway.

I would like Overheat to be an aura that gives Ember slight resistance to Heat damage. has a chance to "melt" nearby projectiles into nothing and converts all incoming damage into Heat damage, so no more Slash or Toxin procs, only Heat which are benificial for her anyway.

Don't add chance, please, Titania's 4 RNG where she has 50% chance to NOT DIE is already abysmal. Better make it a flat %

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

3 hours ago, MonkeyWaffles said:

the sad thing about this NERF [yes, it is one] is that there is no rework for the rest of her skills [which desperately need reworking] nor to her survivability which leaves her pretty unuseable for anything.

The rest of her skills (barring the 1 skill) are actually pretty good (atleast in my opinion.). 

Fire Blast is good at what it does, leaving DoTs on the ground and also offering immediate CC
Accelerant you can just never go wrong because it makes her 3 and 4 that much stronger, and any fire based weapons - hellooo Ignis. 

Her fireball however, seems to have little useful application, I don't think I've ever used it except on accident.  In fact it reminds me alot of Frosts snowball, which most people only use to pop their globes anyway...

I personally think Ember's kit was already in the right place, or close to it, aside from Fireball :/ But the again I don't tend to expect much from from 1 abilities. 

This though, this is a nerf of the monumental kind - maybe one of the worst I've seen in this game in years.  WoF is already pretty heavily mod dependent to make it worthwhile... especially since most people use Firequake.  Just to support embers powers alone I have; Intensify, P. Flow, Firequake, Streamline and Transient Fortitude - that's 5 mods straight to her powers... I don't think we need more penalties.  Even with all those mods, WoF fails to be useful in high levels - which will change now - but at the cost of my next point:

I think they forget that Ember is also up there in the category of "squishy" frames... low range on my abilities is the last thing I want, because it increases the chances of the enemies getting close enough to murder me :(  It's going to be especially true against infested because WoF doesn't hit enough enemies fast enough to deal with their hordes... pretty sad the Fire Based Frame, whom you would assume to be good against Infested, will now probably start to fall behind against them... we're just gonna let Toxic Eximi stroll right on up to us and melt us with their procs.  

It's a situation of potentially more damage out - but also more than likely more damage in.  There's no two ways about it that this is a nerf to a frame who didn't need it :/ 

I don't see this ending well.  Too punishing - I will switch mains if I really have to...I just don't want to be put in that position.  

Edited February 3, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[HeroOfTheWarframe]

I like that you want to make the teralyst fight better with the chroma "fix" but my problem with the fight is the operator phase (when he got shields). Because he counters all the attacks from the teralyst simply by pressing ctrl. And you can stay in the void modus for over half a minute with zenurik. Of corse you cant decrease the time without making him useless in normal missions but there needs to be a reason to not use the void modus in the fight. For example staying in void modus reduces the damage that your operator deals this goes up when staying in void modus and goes slowly down again if you leave the void modus. The other thing is that dying in operator doesnt realy punish the player because you only loose a bit of health and the shilds doesnt matter because you can go in operator directly after it. Something like if you die in operator while having Transference Static your team got to revive you otherwise you lose one of your revives(because there should be a way to fail in this phase of the teralyst fight).But there we are already at my 3. point: you can revive allies with your operator in void modus. If you do this there is nearly no scenario where you cant revive your allies (except they are a mile away). This needs a nerf but because the majority of the players thing that this is the only use for the operator outside the teralyst fight (its not) you cant just remove it. So I would like to see that it takes much longer to revive an allie in void modus or that this drains all your operator energy in a few seconds.

Another point is that the mod covert lethality needs a rework its just broken on high level.

[Nephalem]

8 minutes ago, Kazzpoco said:

Dear DE Staff

I have an opinion on the amendment of Ember.
It is for many formas and arcanes that Ember can do a great deal of damage in a wide range now.
I love Ember and I needed a lot of formas and arcane energize to make her passable even in end games.
DE, I am convinced that your suggestion is to eliminate the enormous efforts of myself and many ember lovers, and to eliminate Ember her  own value.
Beginners and intermediate players may certainly not do anything if there is a powerful Ember.
However, I believe that it will also deprive them of their desire "to be such a cool player".
I think that I need a lot of effort to make a build that Ember pass through with end games and they should pay attention to their efforts.

They will not change theyr mind.Thats how DE roll and its mostly becouse of the comunity cryng aboit it beeing inbalanced and when they se how hard DE is nerfing it they come out again to complain about the nerf beeing to severe.Im accepting the fact that im losing my most used and favorite frame  out of this game like most of the players who love to nuke and constantly move around in order to kill the enemys.

[robbybe01234]

7 hours ago, dreadgame said:

Will it ignore armor? 

ohhh, that could be a thing.  Once WoF hits max potential and minimum range, the flames now bypass armor to compensate for the energy drain.

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, Dawson1917 said:

The game requires thousands of hours to unlock a lot of content that's only worth a few hours each. No-one is keen on spending an entire year wearing the same rank-30 lens-installed frames and weapons just so they can mostly fill ONE focus tree. Don't complain about people trying to make things more fun and less tedious. There is no AFK, either; Banshee at its best (reactor + forma's) lasts about one minute, and non-reactor/forma Banshee struggles to go past 20 seconds with Resonating Quake (the required mod for using Banshee's 4, as it's utterly useless otherwise).

Just stop. Let people enjoy things. Suggest more interactive and FUN mechanics, instead of telling us to quiet down when DE says they're going to make the grind even worse for some of us.

newsflash: banshee was FAR from being the most efficient. it was flat out the laziest. go get a range/duration equinox with sleep augment and farm that in a high end exterminate. that was always far superior to afk'ing with banshee as far as farming focus speed goes.

but oh no now you wont be able to bot your entire game now. how damn tragic that you'll have to play the game now. poor you!

[Vance.Stubbs]

3 minutes ago, Glavenusaur said:

 

You should get a grip on a reality boy... you really think game balancing is a simple as "tweaking a few values"? like there's some sort of slider attached with which you just drag with your bloody mouse? how the hell  would you even know to begin with? 

I actually make mods for many games (C&C: Generals, Mount and Blade, Total War, etc), some of these are quite popular, for example Contra mod which I used to be a member of, so I am pretty common with how game's code works and how easy it is to work with already existing values. 

I am fed up with "lol u know nothing" fallacies, so I will repeat that tweaking balance isn't Sisyphus Labour, and I would like DE to pay way more attention to older mechanics rather than to pump out meaningless cloned weapons one after one. Feel free to continue being personally offended when someone critizes the gaming company you like and drowning down in your ignorance. Have a good day.

[Zorah.Magdaros]

"Oh boy, yet another case of players not understand what is going on, what has been going on and why stuff has been going on. Read, research, understand, then comment." - u/IWantToBeNicer

[TheLexiConArtist]

People crying about Embers also consistently seem to forget that World On Fire, unlike almost every AOE ability in the game (honourable mention to Bastille), has a hard limit on contiguous targets.

 

That's why the instant WoF stops near-instantly killing, it swan-dives to the point of insignificance soon afterwards. Because you're not even compensating the diminishing effectiveness by applying it to more targets.

 

That's why invulnerable (and disproportionately beefy) targets, and Ancient Healers as well as Disruptors make targets acquirable for people other than the Ember player on increasingly lower level missions.

That's why the ability's range (which was already average at best) doesn't even benefit WoF as much as it does for everything else. It just gives a couple extra ticks of time to take down the frontmost enemies.

 

Sincerely, a responsible Ember user _{(except relics which force my hand in running nonsolo, blame the system for that one)}.

[Zahnrad]

18 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Range, being a radius, takes effect in three dimensions. Actual area of WoF (spherical volume) is therefore reduced by 50%*50%*50%.

Gotta be honest, this sounds like less of an argument and trying to explain something we already knew in more depth to try and make the argument sound better. It really doesn't work and instead shows that you can only rely on one argument so you gotta make it better.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Rather than being an unfortunate price to pay for the damage boost, the decreased range on long channels was an equally important part of the change. Being able to kill enemies within 42 meters just by walking around is disruptive. And yes, that's with all available +range mods. That's the problem. Being able to mod for 280% range naturally means that 100% range is going to feel a bit lacking in the worst case scenario.

The idea here is twofold. One, if you want to maintain a high range, you're going to need to reset it, so not only do you have to pay attention, but you're going to burn more energy flipping the toggle. I believe the expectation is that you'll decide it's not worth doing that constantly. Two, at full channel, it does double the damage in a quarter of the area, meaning it scales much, much better when used against enemies in your immediate vicinity, and is much better at dealing with the most apparent threats.

Also remember that even double the channeling cost is half of what Banshee normally pays for Sound Quake. So that part is not really anything to sweat, especially when you're also killing faster.

Banshee also effectively hits EVERY enemy on the map, and keeps them stunlocked while dealing crazy damage.  Even with Firequake, Ember's abilities do not do that.  There is a clear reason why Banshee's cast cost more.   She can cast her power once in a defense and you'll never see a single enemy even leave their spawn room even at the highest levels provided by the star chart.  (Looking at you, Hydron farmers.)  There is a huge difference in Banshee and Ember, not even a contest really... If I go to Hydron with ember, I would never be able to pull off such a feat.  Banshee also never has to worry about taking a point of damage because of her abilities... Ember is always vulnerable, even at her best.

You are also assume we mod for 280% range.. most players wouldn't because the damage would be abysmal... most people don't touch the range, atleast out of the people I play with.  Her range at baseline was in the right place.  Somebody like me is going to end up at 40% unless I now sacrifice mods to build for range, when otherwise I would not have.   As others have mentioned - increasing range lowers time to kill and isn't a good move.  But I also think going negative in range is just as bad... WoF is 15 Meters at base... now it's going to be 6 meters.... might as well just invite the enemies over for a dinner party at that rate. 

You also mentioning that insta-kill throughout the star chart... but I say that's a pretty bad way to balance a kit..the star chart is low level content for the most part, and shouldn't be used as the baseline grounds for balancing.  You are also wrong that it one shots everything on the star chart.. not even close.  You will start to notice WoF's damage falling behing mid-way through the star chart, even with Transient Fortitude and Intensify.... there are frames WAY more busted in terms of covering the entire map with alot of damage.    As it is, the only way for WoF to keep up in later content - and especially sorties, is to spam Accelerant - and even that doesn't help enough - which is why thankfully you can use your weapons while it's active.  
 

Edited February 3, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[robbybe01234]

How about 2 positive for 2 positives?  Everything is going to be the same except they could add a bullet damage reduction while channeling at maximum. 

So we end up with normal WoF into small but intense WoF with a shattershield effect.  I like that if the cost is going to be double. 

[Defhunta]

I've always kind of hated how volts 4 works. But there is no point complaining if you don't have a better idea yourself, so here it is.

I was thinking that his 4 could instead be a weapon, like artemis bow. You activate it, then with primary fire, discharge electricity though your hands, sort of like the amprex, with OK damage and chaining between enemies. With alt-fire, I thought that you could have a small charge up (maybe 1 second?), which would then unleash a lightning bolt like his first ability, but I think it should deal more damage, and without the chaining effect. I was thinking that instead of a normal energy drain like exalted blade or peacemaker, it could cost energy to activate, then cost energy per attack. So using the primary fire would cause energy drain, and using the alt-fire might cost ~30 energy. It would be affected by power strength (obviously), range for the chaining effect on the primary fire and range on the lightning bolt, and obviously efficiency for the starting cost and cost for the attacks. The description could be something like 'Overload with electricity and discharge through your fists'. I feel like this could work quite well. The primary fire would be good for groups/trash mobs, and the secondary fire would be good for the high health/armour targets like heavy gunners or bombards.

[Zeclem]

5 minutes ago, Vance.Stubbs said:

I actually make mods for many games (C&C: Generals, Mount and Blade, Total War, etc), some of these are quite popular, for example Contra mod which I used to be a member of, so I am pretty common with how game's code works and how easy it is to work with already existing values. 

I am fed up with "lol u know nothing" fallacies, so I will repeat that tweaking balance isn't Sisyphus Labour, and I would like DE to pay way more attention to older mechanics rather than to pump out meaningless cloned weapons one after one. Feel free to continue being personally offended when someone critizes the gaming company you like and drowning down in your ignorance. Have a good day.

yeah you're right. de is stupid slow in balancing. cus when they do, people cry that their toys are taken away. just like how forums are going right now. such balance changes should've been far more common, i definitely agree with that.

but can people please stop acting as de is nerfing every single good thing? every single thing they nerf its followed by a several new ways to build. no nerf was ever as significant as condition overload and thats just one thing.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Zeclem