Ash Feedback

[ForsakenEcho]

15 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't know why people find this so hard to understand. He's not made to mass kill trash mobs. 

but it doesnt mean that making him cant kill trash mobs (any level 150+ mobs is not trash btw) is right. I really love to solo mission with him but now, meh. And his old ult is not breaking the game in anyways. So I think that nerf is totally unnecessary from the beginning.

[DoomzDay313]

Ash used to be my main frame until the marking system was introduced. It started to get really frustrating trying to kill large mobs of enemies, because by the time I highlighted the group for Bladestorm they were instantly nuked by another player. Hell make Bladestorm a wide conal attack... anything other than having to waste time trying to place markers just to be able to use your ult. 

[Altre]

I like Ash and he was the third frame I tested after Atlas and Zephyr. I even got a second set of arcane trickery for him. Maybe it's because I use a controller, but his 4 is awkward to activate when my allies mow down enemies or my invisibility runs out against higher level enemies before I get a chance to use it on a reasonable amount of enemies. It does kill when I use it on 2 or 3 enemies. I kill more spamming teleport on enemies manually with the augment. I kind of feel like I'd be better off just shooting things, though.

I'm sure using a keyboard makes it easier, but swapping between abilities on the controller makes it inconvenient. Keyboard kill my wrists in games like this. Maybe I'll try remapping.

Maybe they could make it work like it used to (killing within an area) and just make clones only attack so many times based on power duration or something. Maybe make it where it'll do more damage or proc more if you charge it?

Edited February 14, 2018 by Altre
Addendum to idea

[gReMLiN1804]

here is an idea:
dont try to get 3 marks on EVERYTHING in sight.
you can just mark just a few mobs and send the clones and mark the next ones, when your 4 is ready again. you need to wait for the clones to finish anyways.
i tested the new ash as many others did. gave him a forma and did hydron. i just ran around marking stuff. just wiggled the mouse in the general direction of a mob group and most have been marked -> sent the clones, went to kill other stuff until 4 was up again and remarking stuff.
i did absolutely decent dmg and was constantly on the move. even into higher levels with kinda low power strenght one mark is enough for the fodder mobs.

i cant complain.

my biggest problem with ash was, that he havent had a good way to deal with crowds (apart from weaponary). or the way to deal with crowds required you to sit in animations.
now i can a group of mobs be done with after 0,5 secs or marking and deal with other stuff.

i totally like it

Edited February 14, 2018 by gReMLiN1804

[Altre]

6 minutes ago, gReMLiN1804 said:

here is an idea:
dont try to get 3 marks on EVERYTHING in sight.
you can just mark just a few mobs and send the clones and mark the next ones, when your 4 is ready again. you need to wait for the clones to finish anyways.
i tested the new ash as many others did. gave him a forma and did hydron. i just ran around marking stuff. just wiggled the mouse in the general direction of a mob group and most have been marked -> sent the clones, went to kill other stuff until 4 was up again and remarking stuff.

my biggest problem with ash was, that he havent had a good way to deal with crowds (apart from weaponary). or the way to deal with crowds required you to sit in animations.

There's been about one person that mentioned needing three marks in this thread, though. The complaint is that by the time you get enemies marked, they get nuked or shot by allies. I've been in plenty of pub games with him now where the 2 or 3 enemies that I've marked either die as I'm about to activate or their 8 buddies die from one player using a more effective method of murder. The complaint isn't that it can't kill, it's that it can't keep up. Isn't an ultimate ability supposed to kick a little more grineer butt?

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, ForsakenEcho said:

but it doesnt mean that making him cant kill trash mobs (any level 150+ mobs is not trash btw) is right..

He has every weapon in the game for that. He's a melee frame, that can turn invisible for additional damage. That's how he easily kills hoards of trash mobs. 

And the level 150+ mobs you're referring to make almost every other aoe power in the game nearly obsolete. He still has the vastly more advantage there than most frames. That's the trade-off for not being able to instantly kill a hundred level 4 enemies...

He's literally the ultimate scaling Warframe...

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb (PS4)G_MAN180:

Yeah, originally I thought the reason they changed him was because you couldnt kill enemies targetted by him and then you were stuck in the annimation. Now both are fixed but you still have to target. I personally dont see why they just dont revert it or make it a conicall attack.

Getting stuck on enemys was somewhat of a original problem as combo mods made theyr way into the game at a much later date....it was a 50m animated aoe back then.

Combo was addet and since 100k finisher damage isn't something that does without balancing, they balanced it by targeting and animation. Animation was removed as well so all there is is targeting.... for the strongest aoe in the game, on the strongest damage type in the game.

Big f-ing deal.

[Nazrethim]

hace 5 horas, Hypernaut1 dijo:

One thing about the bladestorm change, it has made shuriken useless for me. I can double tap 4 and do guaranteed high damage to a target and not even worrying about missing. Without the augment, I fail to see a reason to use it when I can just as easily mark and execute.... And it looks cooler. I haven't done the math, but it may even be cheaper too.

I don't even use the seeking shuriken augment all that much, so I really don't have a reason to use it. 

Well, yes. That's a sad reality. Shuriken, without the augment, has no reason to be used. And it is cheaper to use BS. Shuriken hits for 500 (affected by Power Strength) and puts a Bleed on the target. One-handed action. Hits either two targets for those 500 or one target for 1000. It uses 25 energy. BS uses 12/6 for 2k damage (affected by Power Strength and Combo Counter multiplier) and puts a bleed on the target. It requires a short set up for multiple targets but for single or few targets is instant. So yeah, BS is far better than Shuriken any day.

Shuriken's augment is solid but that's the only thing it has going for it.

And after playing more. And the initial rush of getting something done, I have to say that while BS is slightly better now, it's yet another Ash Revisited style of change: little done, little fixed, issues added are as many or more as issues solved.

DE really likes to dissapoint ninjas apparently.

Well, at least Zephyr is good to use now.

[FbiKei]

En 2/13/2018 a las 13:40, ForsakenEcho dijo:

just, make the marker after he uses his 4 to see highlighted enemies through walls, and mark those enemies without being blocked by a huge bombard standing at your face. this could save him.

That's actually the first time that i felt like there's hope after the "Ash Koga rework" ..Just like the Zenith. This change will make up for the environmental obstacles that really makes the current marking system so incredible bad while retaining the more participative feel that DE wanted and the other alternative play-styles as well. Maybe attach the "X-ray" vision to the ability range? Because i know ppl will complain now about having infinite distance wall-hacks. Just for the sake of keeping it "balanced", since Blade storm has a decent casting distance range. 

[--RV--Draconian]

While i'm ambiguous about the marking mechanic, i am definitely against DE still not fixing the falling-from-the-map mechanic when you actually participate in the killing with your clones. You go out of bounds pretty often when just teleporting to an enemy, too.

[Racter]

Current Bladestorm has no place in Warframe IMO. In the time it takes to turn it on, mark any reasonable amount of targets, turn it on again to start the animations, and then actually do the animations, you could have easily killed any reasonable level of enemy with any reasonable weapon. That's without bringing up the fact that other frames exist, it's literally just worse than using any random weapon. At the very least, they need to scrap the 3 marks, give the marking process a sizable cone (like Peacemaker), and immediately send out several clones to start attacking.

It's just far too slow, costs far too much and takes far too much effort for what you're getting in return.

[DatDarkOne]

36 minutes ago, Racter said:

Current Bladestorm has no place in Warframe IMO. In the time it takes to turn it on, mark any reasonable amount of targets, turn it on again to start the animations, and then actually do the animations, you could have easily killed any reasonable level of enemy with any reasonable weapon. That's without bringing up the fact that other frames exist, it's literally just worse than using any random weapon. At the very least, they need to scrap the 3 marks, give the marking process a sizable cone (like Peacemaker), and immediately send out several clones to start attacking.

It's just far too slow, costs far too much and takes far too much effort for what you're getting in return.

How you counter that is just to keep it on the whole time.  That way you can just whip it out at a moments notice should you need to.  You will be marking targets passively the whole time if you already have it toggled on.  The energy drain for doing this isn't even a problem as you get any energy used marking back should the enemies die.   

[Altagraive]

Apparently I'm the only one who though on trying current bladestorm "omg it's op".

I was maining Ash since 2014, not as long as some people here, but still pretty long.

His 4 was never good. Not before.

In early years it was indeed buggy and messy and expensive and why would you bother.

Then it was a farming mechanism, not unlike saryn's spores/clone combo or banshee's quake thing.

But trying to use it on real high level enemies, especially in MOT would not only not kill most of them because of healer/nullifier combo, but also end up killing you yourself since if you run out of invisibility during bladestorm enemies will know EXACTLY where you exit and will rain you with damage once your invincibility is over. It was just trash for end game.

Then the make it into mark enemies stuff, which didn't change much. You couldn't farm focus with him anymore, but it would still kill you rather than enemies in high level runs.

So it remained trash only suitable for low-mid level missions, where you can just use whatever.

 

But now, now it's an exalted blade-tier actual goddamn ultimate attack. Because while your clones mop up enemies they can mop up, you're free to refresh your invisibility, reposition yourself, reload, strip armor, do whatever the hell you need. All while maintaining full access to Ash's abilities and weapons you brought to the mission, let alone focus. And not to mention them doing respectable damage to what they can damage and not killing yourself in the process. And if you still want to live dangerously and join in on the fun of exiting bladestorm with long recovery animation you can do that with teleport ability.

People complaining about marking mechanic probably don't realize, just how forgiving it is and how you can mark a whole crowd of enemies by just wiggling mouse in their general direction once.

It's OP, it's levels of exalted blade and iron skin OP, while having more EHP than Ex or way less EN hunger than Rhino. It's just not I win button like radial disarm, and I feel people want exactly that. Well if you want to win with one button just play Loki, like always. I'm not saying Ash is skill frame, boy he is not, but god damn making him even more brain dead will just result is 1-to-1 Loki clone.

And also seeing how already mediocre frames like Ember are getting further nerfs, I have hard time fathoming Ash getting any buffs on top of him being top tier frame already.

[Altre]

7 hours ago, Altagraive said:

People complaining about marking mechanic probably don't realize, just how forgiving it is and how you can mark a whole crowd of enemies by just wiggling mouse in their general direction once.

It's OP, it's levels of exalted blade and iron skin OP, while having more EHP than Ex or way less EN hunger than Rhino. It's just not I win button like radial disarm, and I feel people want exactly that. Well if you want to win with one button just play Loki, like always. I'm not saying Ash is skill frame, boy he is not, but god damn making him even more brain dead will just result is 1-to-1 Loki clone.

And also seeing how already mediocre frames like Ember are getting further nerfs, I have hard time fathoming Ash getting any buffs on top of him being top tier frame already.

No one wants his ult to instakill everything. I've passed the cursor over enemies, no mark. Hold on the enemy, maybe mark. It's not my internet or computer. Sweeps sometimes work, most of the time don't now. I'd like for it to go back to hitting random enemies with a limiting mechanism based on duration or maybe make it a channel ability that takes energy for each enemy it latches a clone to. You could manually target with teleport for tactical kills and have his 4 randomly taking foes down without having to wait for a mark at the cost of energy.

I don't think that would be an overpowered system and it would make 4 less cumbersome for mouse or controller users.

[Dragazer]

On 14/02/2018 at 8:49 AM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I think that has to do with the type of content they specialize in.

Mesa Frost and Limbo specialize in holding down large areas for a long time which comes up more commonly in the game. 

Ash specializes in taking down the biggest, baddest mofo in the room and he does it better than almost anyone. I main Ash. Unlike most frames that fall off at high level content, his abilities don't even become useful until level 30 minimum if he's even half-decently modded. So, more along the lines of Ivara and Loki, he excels at what he's good at (killing the unkillable) but isn't necessarily the first choice for most content. 

I'm willing to pick him first for most mission types because I don't always care about trying to carry the team, or being able to brag that I killed the most trash mobs...

You want to know where to put him? Literally any high level mission in the game. Just don't expect him to be a cheese frame for farming low level content like Mesa, and Ember, or as an objective defender like Frost and Limbo. They aren't in the same category as him so competing for a spot on the team with him is irrelevant. He's an assassin, with high single target/limited aoe damage, and limited stealth. 

People need to stop using this bullsh1t argument, if i wanted single target dmg I would use teleport+covert, if i wanted wide area dmg i use my weapons.

As it stands bs is still going to be trash if we still have these clunky mechanics for targeting. It has no unique purpose, give it something similar to Mesa targeting and it might just be worth using

[Spectre-8]

Ash is fine though.

[Altagraive]

How the hell targeting works fine for me and not fine for others?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Dragazer:

People need to stop using this bullsh1t argument, if i wanted single target dmg I would use teleport+covert, if i wanted wide area dmg i use my weapons.

 

Why not both? Cause they literally made both possible.

[Dragazer]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Why not both? Cause they literally made both possible.

In its current state you have to mark each target individually and have to do it all over again for each mark, the time it takes to do that I could just shoot with my gun.

Giving it something like Peacemakers's targerting reticle, Where any enemies within the circle are marked 3 times right away. This would make the ability much more enjoyable to use, and would fit in the fast paced action of this game.

inb4 waste of energy: Remember any unused marks of blade storm are fully refunded if enemies die early.

[Marthrym]

I think some people here are misguided as to what the original point of this thread was : practicality.

The point was never that Ash is weak. He's not, he's more than fine as far as I'm concerned. I mean with a kit like his, you can pretty much do anything and everything. I've been playing him a LOT recently, almost exclusively actually, and he is an amazing frame (and I love his Deluxe skin). Again, the original  point I and others have been trying to make before others basically derailed this thread is that the TARGETING system can sometimes be a bit wonky and impractical to use. It doesn't mean it's not useable or doesn't work. It's just not as optimized and user-friendly as other mutli-targeting abilities in the game, that's all. It has nothing to do with the power of the frame or the skill required to play it effectively.

[Dragazer]

On 2/14/2018 at 12:11 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

How do you guys even aim and shoot at enemies if youre having such problems with marking? This game is part shooter, where you literally point at enemies all of the time. I dont get it.

That is a problem if it requires such precise aiming, you might as well just use the the gun anyways, saves energy and actually kills faster depending on the gun in question (launchers and other AoE types)

If the current Blade storm is not as bad as you say, lets give Mesa the same treatment and make her 4 perform the same way, having to mark each target to shoot.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Dragazer

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

20 hours ago, Dragazer said:

As it stands bs is still going to be trash if we still have these clunky mechanics for targeting. It has no unique purpose, give it something similar to Mesa targeting and it might just be worth using

It's far from trash, but a targeting area would be a good improvement. 

[SilverRook]

On 13/02/2018 at 4:45 PM, Aleksi134 said:

I tested him alright. He can be fast DPS but the marking is annoying as S#&$, when i could instead be using mesa and just activating 4 and spinning my mouse and winning while doing CC+tank.

^^ This.

 

Don't understand why Ash got nerfed because of his ability to insta kill rooms of enemies but mesa does exactly the same but no nerf there...... 

**SHRUGS**

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 58 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

In its current state you have to mark each target individually and have to do it all over again for each mark, the time it takes to do that I could just shoot with my gun.

Sure you could. You could also melee them one by one, finish them one by one but then again, why use abilitys at all?

You sure won't get that much effect outa really strong guns (fire-rate/damage ratio aside, addet to the fact that "mouse movement" is a thing) but for melee, you'll find nothing else that's this rewarding. Nothing that operates outside of your melee range and actually stays on par with your damage. There sure are and allways have been gun fit builds for ash but overall, with the stealth multipliers, melee movement, defense type that allows free movement in melee range, he is more of a melee frame and that is where that frickin ability is unbeatable.

Not saying that target assist would be bad but you'all really need to tone down on the exaggeration.

Edited February 18, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Dragazer]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Sure you could. You could also melee them one by one, finish them one by one but then again, why use abilitys at all?

You sure won't get that much effect outa really strong guns (fire-rate/damage ratio aside) but for melee, you'll find nothing else that's this rewarding. Nothing that operates outside of your melee range and actually stays on par with your damage. There sure are and allways have been gun fit builds for ash but overall, with the stealth multipliers, melee movement, defense type that allows free movement in melee range, he is more of a melee frame and that is where that frickin ability is unbeatable.

It is about meaningful choices they are situations that guns are just straight up better than melee. Not everyone goes melee only, if the aiming has to be so precise and single targeted, I might as well save my energy and time and just use the gun. 

BTW Stealth multipliers are a joke now, 1 hit and the multiplier is gone, brush the enemy the multiplier is gone. You used to be able to get the multiplier constantly if you weren't actually touching the enemy but, that was stealth nerfed. We still have no idea if it is intentionally because they have never addressed it.

For the time being I just stick with CL daggers now because of this and rely on guns.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Dragazer