so I played some conclave today

[Sibernetika]

and the amount of cheese that is going on in conclave is enough to make a never-ending amount of cheese toast sandwiches, bullet jump, bullet jump, bullet jump galore, bullet jump bullet jump, bullet jump some more, it gets really off-putting, and then you go and add mods to further motivate bullet jumping by reducing damage while bullet jumping... then we get to some other cheese tactics such as a rhino can do a melee slam and then follow up with an instant charge for an easy instant kill, also headshots with melee weapons seems to still be a thing since I was killed 3 times from full health and shields with a melee slam... clans still join and hunt down single targets even in 1 vs all you will have clans running together as a team. High tier players with beneficials mods gets clumped up with new players that doesnt have access to said mods and well thats just a slaughter on how you can run around with the melee only mod murdering everything in your path with channeling kills .. weapons thats horribible in PVE (come on there is a  reason the arnt widly used in PVE) is still horrible in PVP again with no reason to bother using them... and now one of the biggest cheesers of all Hydriod the way a hydroid can spam his puddle and tidal wave to stay most of the time invulnerable needs to be looked at yes valkyr has invulnerability too but that is out of juice so quick while a hydroid seems to have not so much of an energy problem.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Sibernetika

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

and the amount of cheese that is going on in conclave is enough to make a never-ending amount of cheese toast sandwiches, bullet jump, bullet jump, bullet jump galore, bullet jump bullet jump, bullet jump some more

You're playing WF.

What exactly did you expect?

[An8rchy]

6 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

You're playing WF.

What exactly did you expect?

He played Conclave
What else did he expect ?

[[DE]Grzegorz]

I'd love a more "casual" take on PvP in Warframe (slower paced, boots on the ground deal) as Grineer vs Corpus mode, possibly with the Infested sprinkled in during some matches as an independent AI faction.

Besides technical issues Warframe has in network play, be it pve or pvp, Conclave is just not for everyone.

[Triplinster]

29 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

and the amount of cheese that is going on in conclave is enough to make a never-ending amount of cheese toast sandwiches, bullet jump, bullet jump, bullet jump galore, bullet jump bullet jump, bullet jump some more, it gets really off-putting,

Why is bullet jump a problem? If bullet jump was removed, the skill gap would increase. Since we still have aim glide, double jump, wall jump and rolls which most PVP veterans make use of.

Besides bullet jump is now the core of movement in Warframe. It doesn't make sense to make PVP unrelated to the main game itself. Therefore it doesn't make sense to single out bullet jump as one of the problems with conclave.

[aerelm]

2 hours ago, Triplinster said:

Why is bullet jump a problem?

Good thing about that question is that it's already been asked and answered long ago, so instead of trying to come up with our own reasonings, we can easily just look at the history of an actually successful and extremely popular at the time (the two things that conclave is not) fast-paced competitive arena shooter: Quake series.

Here's a Quake vet explaining the issue quite well (2:25 to 3:55). This video is of course about Quake, not Warframe, but everything said there applies in the context of conclave as well, which shows that it's essentially the exact same issue in two similar games.

Quake is most widely known for its rocketjumping, which could be considered equivalent of bulletjumping in conclave, and over the years different iterations of Quake (different versions of the game and different competitive modes) introduced different momentum and movement systems. They essentially spent almost a decade on perfecting a formula that would be skill-based and intuitive at the same time, and also provide a balanced playing field where both the player shooting and the player getting shot at have an equal chance of success (assuming they're on the same skill level).

As a result, the issue with momentum in conclave is something that the game doesn't need to invent its own formula to fix, and can just take a page straight out of Quake's success: Consistency in momentum.

In Conclave, the movement is simply too erratic. There are multiple different movements (run, bulletjump, aimglide, slide, roll, etc) and each have their own acceleration and momentum, and the way they can be chained together leads to a whole clusterfluff of inconsistency in movement pattern which boils it down to a game of patience and having to wait for the right shot, rather than a game of skill. I'm personally not any good at conclave, but I have absolutely no trouble dodging any of the "pro"s until they give up and go somewhere else to shoot someone else, and thats exactly the problem with Conclave.

In any twitch shooter, the actual skill comes down to understanding the different patterns in the game and using a combination of them to an advantage (whether in an offensive or defensive position), rather than how conclave works, which is trying to create something unpredictable in defensive position or wait for something predictable in offensive position. Some people may find it fun, just like how some people found the short-lived excessive air control in Quake fun, but as the competitive history in Quake goes to show, eliminating any erratic patterns from the game actually allows for a far more strategic and skill-based gameplay.

 

---

I don't believe bulletjump should be removed from Conclave. That would be like removing rocketjumps from Quake, which is kinda the whole fun of the game. But there's no denying that it's a problem in its current form which needs to be fixed if conclave is ever to be successful and widely enjoyed by the playerbase.

Videos like this one show the issue quite well. While it's something that conclave vets may consider to be "cool" or "show of skill", truth is the same (defensive) results can be achieved by any nubcake continuously bashing all the buttons on their keyboard at once, and the issue boils down to inconsistency in momentum. Bulletjump can stay, and so can slide, roll, walljump, melee dash, etc, but their momentum needs to be standardized so based on the situation, there can be a "right" or "wrong" move to make, rather than the only wrong move being "slowing down because of not enough keys pressed at the same time", as is the case with conclave right now.

In theory, one possible solution could be removing the ability to cancel or adjust the faster movements (so for example, a bulletjump would be a predefined speed boost in a predetermined arc for a predefined amount of time), so everything can be countered with skill, but I personally don't have enough experience in conclave to offer a proper solution. I'm just pointing out the issues I see, and coming up with a working solution could be for the conclave vets to figure out... That is, if they actually want to see a change to the average player count of conclave.

Edited February 18, 2018 by aerelm

[Triplinster]

35 minutes ago, aerelm said:

and the way they can be chained together leads to a whole clusterfluff of inconsistency in movement pattern which boils it down to a game of patience and having to wait for the right shot, rather than a game of skill.

I never encountered this problem. And many other skilled/pro players I talk to never talked about this being a problem. I believe you're wrong when you say "rather than a game of skill" because skilled players can offensively deal with those players.

But if you're talking about the average player. Then yes it's impossible for those players to deal with such movement. And in that case I believe it comes down to lack of skill gap separation.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Triplinster

[rockscl]

they just to implement a server browser

[aerelm]

1 hour ago, Triplinster said:

I never encountered this problem. And many other skilled/pro players I talk to never talked about this being a problem. I believe you're wrong when you say "rather than a game of skill" because skilled players can offensively deal with those players.

That's completely understandable. It's just human nature at work - We get used to anything we're exposed to for a long enough time and start to consider it to be normal. Conclave is an extremely broken but still functional system, and no matter how broken, long as a system is functional one can learn to use it after enough practice. Doesn't negate the fact that it's broken.

My post was mostly focused on making the core gameplay of conclave more accessible and enjoyable for a wider audience so the conclave playerbase can actually grow, but instead of dumbing it down and lowering the skillcap (which is something I personally disagree with as well), the entire system can be streamlined to make it more intuitive and easier to understand, which would lower the barrier to entry and allow more room for average players to actually improve gradually, making the whole process of grinding to the top of the skillchain more pleasant and enjoyable (this is a game, after all), so even though it's mostly oriented toward average players, as I pointed out with the Quake comparison, it's something that's actually worked exceptionally well in the competitive scene of similar games as well.

Skill level in competitive scene of Quake back in its day was completely insane, to the point where a bystander watching the action couldn't understand what was even going on, and still, because the core mechanics of it were intuitive and streamlined anyone could just pick up the game and start playing, gradually improve and get a hang of it, and over time get to a place where they could consider themselves a "pro" (at least in their own LAN-parties). The other side of the coin, the skillcap in conclave is on the same level as those same LAN-parties, and yet, conclave is something that over the years countless players have picked up, put some time and effort into trying to learn, and then just said "Nah, F this" , dropped it altogether, maybe posted a thread like this one, and then completely forgot about its existence.

If that's not an obvious sign of an underlying problem, I don't know what is.

Edited February 18, 2018 by aerelm

[Triplinster]

1 hour ago, aerelm said:

Videos like this one show the issue quite well. While it's something that conclave vets may consider to be "cool" or "show of skill", truth is the same (defensive) results can be achieved by any nubcake continuously bashing all the buttons on their keyboard at once,

First of all, that gif you sneaked in with an edit, that's neither "cool" nor "show of skill" for pvp veterans. It's basic movement for pvp veterans. And it's very very straight forward, simple and slow. 

And I DARE you to achieve the SAME results by "bashing the keyboard". For me that comment removes all weight in your comments.


Also, I'm not a Quake player. So your paragraphs of Quake vs Conclave comparison aren't helping me understand you.

[aerelm]

12 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

And I DARE you to achieve the SAME results by "bashing the keyboard".

Well... I can as easily just dare you and other conclave residents to, maybe just for once, don't turn threads like this into an e-peen waving contest so issues can be properly addressed and discussed. Guess that's too much to ask though, cause this is how threads like this always go, no matter who's on either side.
 

But thanks for the discussion, was good while it lasted.

Edited February 18, 2018 by aerelm

[squidd]

As a longtime Quake player, I might be able to comment on drawn correlations between Conclave and Quake here. In my mind, they are related much more mentally than physically, even with the lack of item pickups as a major combat factor in Quake. I think you're putting way too much emphasis on the rocket jump, which is unique to Quake in this comparison because self damage in Warframe doesn't propel/accelerate you. Circle jumping might be closer to bullet jumping in my opinion, if I had to make a connection.

6 hours ago, aerelm said:

...

Quake is most widely known for its rocketjumping, which could be considered equivalent of bulletjumping in conclave, and over the years different iterations of Quake (different versions of the game and different competitive modes) introduced different momentum and movement systems. They essentially spent almost a decade on perfecting a formula that would be skill-based and intuitive at the same time, and also provide a balanced playing field where both the player shooting and the player getting shot at have an equal chance of success (assuming they're on the same skill level).

...

In Conclave, the movement is simply too erratic. There are multiple different movements (run, bulletjump, aimglide, slide, roll, etc) and each have their own acceleration and momentum, and the way they can be chained together leads to a whole clusterfluff of inconsistency in movement pattern which boils it down to a game of patience and having to wait for the right shot, rather than a game of skill. I'm personally not any good at conclave, but I have absolutely no trouble dodging any of the "pro"s until they give up and go somewhere else to shoot someone else, and thats exactly the problem with Conclave.

Videos like this one show the issue quite well. While it's something that conclave vets may consider to be "cool" or "show of skill", truth is the same (defensive) results can be achieved by any nubcake continuously bashing all the buttons on their keyboard at once, and the issue boils down to inconsistency in momentum. Bulletjump can stay, and so can slide, roll, walljump, melee dash, etc, but their momentum needs to be standardized so based on the situation, there can be a "right" or "wrong" move to make, rather than the only wrong move being "slowing down because of not enough keys pressed at the same time", as is the case with conclave right now.

In theory, one possible solution could be removing the ability to cancel or adjust the faster movements (so for example, a bulletjump would be a predefined speed boost in a predetermined arc for a predefined amount of time), so everything can be countered with skill, but I personally don't have enough experience in conclave to offer a proper solution. I'm just pointing out the issues I see, and coming up with a working solution could be for the conclave vets to figure out... That is, if they actually want to see a change to the average player count of conclave.

Quake generally involves running, walking, strafe jumping, circle jumping, rocket jumping, grenade jumping, plasma climbing, and depending on the mod or game mode, forward air control and grappling hook. There is also a personal teleporter pickup in Quake 3 and Live, and crouch sliding in Quake 4. Unreal Tournament generally had running, dodging, dodge rolling, wall dodging, double jumping, wall sliding, some level of air control, gravity and acceleration modifiers, and of course, the translocator. Warframe is a bit similar, but boasts some mechanics a bit like a fighting game, where one animation can be canceled into another, which may or may not be canceled into another. Of course, like a fighting game, combinations are limited (some animations cannot be canceled), but the flowchart involved here is consistent and allows fluidity in movement from room to room in Conclave maps. It also allows for user error correction to a degree, which is something unique that many other similar games may not directly compete with. As a result, Warframe's mobility mechanics are more forgiving than other games. I think a really good discussion would be whether or not mobility options currently are too forgiving, not too extensive.

"Only wrong move being 'slowing down because of not enough keys pressed at the same time', as is the case with conclave right now." I have to disagree here due to the wording used. I promise you, if your goal is to "press enough keys at the same time", you will not succeed as the linked video clip displays. It sounds to me like you are giving a basic generalization, which is fine, but not useful to base game engine decisions on. A classic example would be a person playing Street Fighter against a person pressing all 6 buttons as quickly as he can, just for the same of "pressing enough keys at the same time". 100% of the time, a smart player will take down the button masher with engine knowledge and mechanic understanding/experience. "I personally don't have enough experience in conclave to offer a proper solution" continues to offer no credit from my perspective, but does not discredit from you from an opinion perspective.

The average player count of Conclave is in fact increasing, both from a personal viewpoint and collected sample data. What it needs more than anything to grow is more players to stick with it and more learning resources. This is a recipe for a game which begins to snowball in popularity, but Conclave has always had that snowball simultaneously melted by players telling others "its an abomination" and "it should be removed from the game". Personally, I believe mechanical changes specifically for the game mode will hurt it more by causing overall confusion over a totally new system and overall disgust that Conclave received an update while its playercount is so low in comparison the cooperative/story mode. It is worth noting that Conclave will never be a popular shooter like Counter Strike, Call of Duty, Quake, Titanfall, Overwatch and others because it is an arena shooter tied to a horde shooter, and it submits to its changes and updates causing continuous balance issues. Even though as an arena shooter (third person or not, still counts) it boasts a respectable and slowly growing community compared to other games in the same class, it will always be compared to its cooperative mode's popularity and will always appear a "dead game", even though it very much is not.

For the record, the single largest factor that drives other Quake players I know away from Warframe is the lengthy grind to acquire a decent weapon selection for PvP. It is such an uphill battle for them to spend dozens and dozens of hours shooting Grineer just to be able to choose between a rifle, shotgun and sniper, the game is no longer worth it to them. Because of the way Conclave is tied to tightly to cooperative mode and the notion of weapon-mastery-based progression, I cannot see this changing anytime soon. I still believe Conclave's best effort for general playerbase growth is media exposure and learning resources.

5 hours ago, aerelm said:

My post was mostly focused on making the core gameplay of conclave more accessible and enjoyable for a wider audience so the conclave playerbase can actually grow, but instead of dumbing it down and lowering the skillcap (which is something I personally disagree with as well), the entire system can be streamlined to make it more intuitive and easier to understand, which would lower the barrier to entry and allow more room for average players to actually improve gradually, making the whole process of grinding to the top of the skillchain more pleasant and enjoyable (this is a game, after all), so even though it's mostly oriented toward average players, as I pointed out with the Quake comparison, it's something that's actually worked exceptionally well in the competitive scene of similar games as well.

Skill level in competitive scene of Quake back in its day was completely insane, to the point where a bystander watching the action couldn't understand what was even going on

...

Quake Live actually received an update in 2015 when it was moved from client to Steam client only to make an attempt to make the game more accessible for a wider audience, but it can be cited as one of the worst points in time for the community largely because those efforts to make the game more accessible for a wider audience moved aspects of the game that added to the list of things the player needed to learn and focus on to a state which was brainlessly easy to use. It succeeded in making those mechanics more accessible to beginner players, but also lowered both the skill ceiling and the "perfection consistency point" in mid to high level players, who then stomped beginners more easily. It was a frustrating experience for all, and many players left the game as a result. (Though I believe people were more vocal than active about those frustrations if I recall correctly.)

"Bystander watching the action couldn't understand what was even going on".. This is honestly a bad thing. It is a supporting reason why Overwatch will never be anywhere near as large as Counter Strike or PUBG - there's so much S#&$ everywhere, spectators cannot follow unless they play the game themselves and understand it all. Conclave falls in that category by nature, much like Quake did for its lifetime in comparison to other shooters. It is the reason why any arena shooter will no longer succeed to the levels of current spectator-friendly shooters, and many have tried and failed to resurrect the genre over the years. It is just how the human mind picks up the topic and watches it passively instead of being actively engaged (in other words, sitting down watching a livestream instead of actually playing the game). It doesn't make the game bad by any means, Quake is my favorite game.. But it will not soar to the playerbases of mentioned games, and of course nowhere near the number of those playing Warframe coop. I don't think such a comparison is fair or means anything, by nature of the game.

5 hours ago, rockscl said:

they just to implement a server browser

Yep. This is the biggest thing DE can do to benefit Conclave's growth and show non-regulars its not some dead wasteland. It really doesn't even take that much development time to implement, to my knowledge. I'm sure they don't want to because people will ask for it for PvE, which would make no sense, but Conclave would get more hate as a result for receiving something that wasn't put into PvE, and for development resources to be "wasted" on Conclave. We can dream, though.

Edited February 18, 2018 by squidd

[squidd]

Sorry for the double post, but I was afraid I would hit a max post size limit and wanted to reply to someone different.

6 hours ago, JuicyButthurt said:

I'd love a more "casual" take on PvP in Warframe (slower paced, boots on the ground deal) as Grineer vs Corpus mode, possibly with the Infested sprinkled in during some matches as an independent AI faction.

Besides technical issues Warframe has in network play, be it pve or pvp, Conclave is just not for everyone.

I'd support another PvP mode like that for sure. Conclave is a bit hardcore for some people, absolutely. Another PvP option like that would not interest me personally, but definitely would be awesome for a lot of other players.

[-Temp0-]

10 часов назад, An8rchy сказал:

He played Conclave
What else did he expect ?

Yep he played WF's pvp. 

If you don't want people bullet jumping left and right, play any other pvp game or pvp mode in any other game.

[Heckzu]

@Sibernetika Please do not post rants, especially ones with no formatting.

There is nothing wrong with bullet jumping. You use the very same bullet jumping in PvE. 

Armored Acrobatics is a Whirlwind rank mod, meaning that it's very easy to get. Additionally, it has a significant drawback: it lowers overall mobility, which includes bullet jump speed.

Most mods don't give significant advantages. Those that do are very easy to obtain, most of them being obtainable from Sentients in PvE.

There are very few 'terrible' weapons in Conclave. Even the Braton and Lato are two of the most popular weapons, often used by veteran Conclave players. It's not the weapon that's terrible, it's the player using it.

Hydroid's puddle has the setback of being unable to move, allowing you to kill him as he reverts back. Valkyr does not have an invincibility.

[Triplinster]

8 hours ago, aerelm said:

Well... I can as easily just dare you and other conclave residents to, maybe just for once, don't turn threads like this into an e-peen waving contest so issues can be properly addressed and discussed. Guess that's too much to ask though, cause this is how threads like this always go, no matter who's on either side.
 

But thanks for the discussion, was good while it lasted.

Excuse me? "e-peen" waving content? I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

 

 

10 hours ago, aerelm said:

ideos like this one show the issue quite well. While it's something that conclave vets may consider to be "cool" or "show of skill", truth is the same (defensive) results can be achieved by any nubcake continuously bashing all the buttons on their keyboard at once,

But tell me, after this statement how exactly am I suppose to take you seriously?

It gives me the impression that you think you know what you're talking about when you don't.

[Sibernetika]

Puddle tidal wave all of those provide invulnerability during those abilities all you see is 0s popping up when you attack hydroid, but hydroid has enough energy to attack with kraken, puddle and still tidal wave. 

 

Barton, and burston and all the starting weapons is good weapons both in pve and PVP so I have no idea why you would pick on those, but the kraken and the gremlins mediocre weapons in pve at best has a lot to be desired in pvp.

 

 

Bullet jumping all over the place is just bad design for pvp bullet jump constantly to have erratic movements and be a hard target to hit, it's like trying to catch loony toons bouncing beans.. There was another game that did the always staying in the air wall running wall jumping it was unreal 2k4 they abounded that play style, in UT3 and the new UT stating that it was a horrible mechanic leading to someone people that can go through whole matches untouched.

 

And this was not a rant it was feedback on how little this have changed in the 2 years that I have been absent, and the last time I played I can still remember valkyrs 4th made her invulnerable 

[Triplinster]

18 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

but the kraken and the gremlins mediocre weapons in pve at best has a lot to be desired in pvp.

Kraken is one of the most overpowered/unbalanced weapons in conclave right now.


From my recent balance post

Quote

b. Kraken

Kraken is the most underrated overpowered weapon in the game. Even though not many people use it, it's still very overpowered and benefits greatly from miscalc.



174 shield damage in one click. This weapon is enough to 2 click most warframes at a very high fire rate.

Changes for Kraken:
Base damage decrease 60 > 55

Some footage of Kraken in action
 

 

 

[Gnohme]

12 hours ago, JuicyButthurt said:

I'd love a more "casual" take on PvP in Warframe (slower paced, boots on the ground deal) as Grineer vs Corpus mode, possibly with the Infested sprinkled in during some matches as an independent AI faction.

Besides technical issues Warframe has in network play, be it pve or pvp, Conclave is just not for everyone.

Slower-paced? Oof. I had assumed that the reason most people aren't into Conclave is because the movement is so gimped. The slide for excalibur at start is just pitiful. I had to sacrifice shields and health for a 10% mobility boost and a 20% speed boost (which makes me fragile as S#&$, but it pays off). Everyone could use a speed buff across the board. I agree though I'd like to see something like Corpus vs. Grineer where players actively take part in a conflict on both sides.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Gnohme

[.Zel]

9 hours ago, aerelm said:

trying to learn, and then just said "Nah, F this" , dropped it altogether, maybe posted a thread like this one, and then completely forgot about its existence.

It's not about trying to learn, it's about how they try to learn. DE didn't implement any tutorials, so it's no surprise most people give up. As a player who tried to get better and spammed conclave for a whole month and didn't improve a single bit i can understand, but instead of giving up i asked around people i saw who did well in conclave and ended up in the conclave server in discord. There i learned how to exactly improve/what to practice and within a week i started to improve, 3 months later started getting positive k/d.

There's a solution to every problem and a proper way to approach every problem. The broken parts of Conclave isn't the mobility, that's the most balanced part. Abilities and Weapons are the problem.

51 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Puddle tidal wave all of those provide invulnerability during those abilities all you see is 0s popping up when you attack hydroid, but hydroid has enough energy to attack with kraken, puddle and still tidal wave. 

Things like that are for the more "casual" players, allows people to get a few easy kills because not everyone comes to conclave for PvP, some come for the skins and want to stop as soon as possible. You can argue that this isn't balanced and it clearly isn't but Conclave is a PvP game, but unlike most PvP games it might take a bit longer to start performing well and consistently getting kills. Some just don't have that time and just want a certain reward conclave offers and those broken abilities are DE's way of helping those players. 

59 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Bullet jumping all over the place is just bad design for pvp bullet jump constantly to have erratic movements and be a hard target to hit, it's like trying to catch loony toons bouncing beans.. There was another game that did the always staying in the air wall running wall jumping it was unreal 2k4 they abounded that play style, in UT3 and the new UT stating that it was a horrible mechanic leading to someone people that can go through whole matches untouched.

Look at it this way, how fun would PvE be if there was no bullet jumping? It's a core part of Warframe and partly what attracts people to this game, this is why the regulars stick around playing conclave for years. 

Can't complain that it's too fast or impossible when there are many people who can easily kill targets regardless of how quick they move. You see it as a problem but those who are regulars see it as a challenge and it feels great when they kill a fast moving target, this is why this game has regular players. If you take out the unique movement, then it'll only be a bad game mode with abysmal balancing, and i think you know how abysmal the frame abilities are.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

1 hour ago, Gnohme said:

Slower-paced? Oof. I had assumed that the reason most people aren't into Conclave is because the movement is so gimped. The slide for excalibur at start is just pitiful. I had to sacrifice shields and health for a 10% mobility boost and a 20% speed boost (which makes me fragile as S#&$, but it pays off). Everyone could use a speed buff across the board. I agree though I'd like to see something like Corpus vs. Grineer where players actively take part in a conflict on both sides.

My take on PvP in Warframe would be more consistent in terms of player movement speed compared to its current implementation, basic movement in Conclave (typical bulletjump and sliding people are used to in PvE) seems to be far slower in comparison, hence the heavy reliance on exploiting physics glitches like backflips that fling player in a direction at mach speed.

All of that is only made worse by how unreliable and inconsistent networking in Warframe is in general.

[wizardeiges]

Only reason why I even play the PVP is because of the speed. The fights are incredibly fast and movements can be erratic when a player gets low on hp and tries to flip out of the fight making a well aimed and timed bullet feel all the more better.

If I wanted to play a game with slower pvp i'd go play playerunknown or any of the thousands of games with pvp that aren't as fast as warframes pvp.

If you want slower fighting and players more restricted in movement then go play something slow like playerunknown,you'll love how restricted momentum and movement is.

For the rest of us who want a warframe experience with our pvp,we have warframe pvp for that. Warframe is about speed and landing a good shot at the right time,it isn't about sitting in a corner with a shotgun or running head on into gunfire expecting to not take a arrow to the face.

If I can do a hundred barrel rolls and flips in the process of zig zagging through your gunfire to land my spinning sliding melee on you like a super speedy mechanical space ninja  then I will. Catch me if you can and if you can't then just get better with your reaction time. Nothing in this game beats the thrill of fighting a player who moves the same way I do in a fight. It turns into a huge barrel roll wall flipping fight of well placed melees and restricted gunshots so they're aimed just right at the perfect moments. A true warframe pvp experience where mobility and fast reaction time will often help the outcome of a fight.

Keep playing and you'll get better against the more experienced pvpers in conclave.  Wanting them to get nerfed in speed because you won't pick up your pace is silly.

Conclaves speed is the only reason why I even play it over a different pvp game.

Edited February 18, 2018 by wizardeiges

[Triplinster]

1 hour ago, JuicyButthurt said:

My take on PvP in Warframe would be more consistent in terms of player movement speed compared to its current implementation, basic movement in Conclave (typical bulletjump and sliding people are used to in PvE) seems to be far slower in comparison, hence the heavy reliance on exploiting physics glitches like backflips that fling player in a direction at mach speed.

All of that is only made worse by how unreliable and inconsistent networking in Warframe is in general.

I believe you're talking about the one move no one ever uses.

Bullet jump cancel to backflip. It's one of the hardest moves to pull off and no matter how much I tried to teach people how to do it, they couldn't replicate.

And no, it's not an exploit. It's just a bullet jump cancel to back flip.

 

The real issue which you people don't talk about is skill gap separation. Because the pros will always have the same advantage over the newb no matter what movement you change/nerf.

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Triplinster

[aerelm]

11 hours ago, squidd said:

As a longtime Quake player [...]

That was a really interesting read, and you raised some really good points. Not gonna quote every part because that'd make the post a bit too unnecessarily long(er), but here's the general bits:

11 hours ago, squidd said:

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on the rocket jump, which is unique to Quake in this comparison because self damage in Warframe doesn't propel/accelerate you. Circle jumping might be closer to bullet jumping in my opinion, if I had to make a connection.

Well, when it comes to drawing a parallel, I dont think we can find a 100% accurate one because they're different games after all. Circlejump could work as a comparison too in some cases, but it kinda lacks the vertical freedom of bulletjump, which is the reason I went with rocketjump for that comparison, and it was mostly based on the general style of movement it allowed, not its limitations (like self-damage, dependency on a surface area, etc).

11 hours ago, squidd said:

It also allows for user error correction to a degree, which is something unique that many other similar games may not directly compete with. As a result, Warframe's mobility mechanics are more forgiving than other games. I think a really good discussion would be whether or not mobility options currently are too forgiving, not too extensive.

The comparison with animation canceling in fighting games was quite on point, and if we wanna go with that analogy, Conclave in my opinion would be closer to a random fighting game that's not as button-masher-proof as games like SF, so while button mashing wouldn't get you to the top, it could still get you much further than it would in a polished and streamlined experience like SF, but that aside, I completely agree with the quoted part. That's probably a better and more accurate way of looking at the issue.

Another factor to consider on top of the movement chain itself being possibly too forgiving is the movement animation. In most of the older arena shooters with similar movement styles, the actual "target area" (i.e. model of the character) stayed more or less the same, and even though some of the more recent versions of them added a bit of visual flare to it, it was still kept in the "predictable" range so the only mental calculation required was mostly the velocity. In conclave, on the other hand, each movement has its own animation and when chained together, it starts turning into too much visual information for the brain to process, and even though it's still possible to learn to process all those movements and predict the target's next location, it drastically adds to the barrier to entry. So it's yet another factor that doesn't benefit or harm veterans but screws the newer players over.

It more or less comes down to whether or not having a complicated and unintuitive system like this actually benefits the gamemode in any way at all, while other similar games have managed to create the same experience in a much more intuitive and streamlined manner.

11 hours ago, squidd said:

"Only wrong move being 'slowing down because of not enough keys pressed at the same time', as is the case with conclave right now." I have to disagree here due to the wording used. I promise you, if your goal is to "press enough keys at the same time", you will not succeed as the linked video clip displays. It sounds to me like you are giving a basic generalization, which is fine, but not useful to base game engine decisions on.

Well, a line like that has "with basic understanding of the game" implied, and it was mainly regarding a player who's only new to conclave, not the game or gaming as a whole. It's not something a completely new gamer can do, but it's not at all hard to pull off random and erratic movement patterns by just continuously pressing "buttons that might make sense" if you have a basic understanding of what each key does. I know, because I've personally done that enough times to be sure that it works at least 80% of the time, even against the vets, one of whom even threw some really nice words my way before giving up and moving on... which was a pretty good laugh. So, that whole bit mostly just comes down to "I have no idea what I'm doing, and I still can dodge the vets well enough, and in my opinion that's a problem", keeping in mind that despite being a completely clueless nubcake in the context of conclave, I'm not new to Warframe and its movement system.

Also, as I pointed out a bit later in my original post, that bit was solely about the "defensive" side of things. Someone who's not used to playing conclave won't be able to get any kills or even aim at all during those movements, but when it comes to just the movement itself (for example, trying to mimic a movement similar to that video in an empty server), it's quite easy to pull off in the sense that you won't even need to have a specific chain of movements in mind, long as you know the button you're pressing does at least something, it can be chained with the next button that also does something. It might not end up looking as fluid and controlled as how some vet moves all around the map, but works well enough for the isolated instances of "creating a erratic movement pattern".

 But that said, the whole thing more or less goes back to your main point of mobility options possibly being too forgiving.

11 hours ago, squidd said:

Quake Live actually received an update in 2015 [...]

To be honest, I'm personally not a fan of Quake Live (and Champions) at all, since most of the decisions made around it was more of a desperate attempt at reviving an already dead game, and the main focus seemed to be trying to push it back up the popularity ladder rather than maintaining the core experience of Quake that had still managed to keep a core audience around even after a decade. So I don't think that would be the way to "fix conclave" as I'm generally not in favor of dumbing games down to make it "more readily available" to a more casual audience or changing the core gameplay, and as you yourself said, conclave will always be a "dead" gamemode compared to the main PvE of Warframe, but in my opinion there's a difference between being more accessible and more easily available. Right now, a new player (new to conclave, not new to gaming) has to spend at least a few dozen hours in conclave before they start to even slightly make sense of what's going on around them, and that only contributes to an (in my opinion) unnecessarily high barrier to entry without actually providing a major enough boost to the skillcap to be worth the sacrifice.

By the way, that bit about spectators in Quake having no clue what's going on was mostly about the skillgap and skillcap rather than being a spectator-friendly experience. Although, your point about spectator-friendly games is quite true, but fortunately that's something Conclave doesn't have to worry about.

11 hours ago, squidd said:

Conclave would get more hate as a result for receiving something that wasn't put into PvE, and for development resources to be "wasted" on Conclave.

Well said. That's one of the main reason I generally don't bother playing Warforum over conclave much. It's really unlikely that DE would sacrifice the time and effort needed to clean up the conclave experience, just to get heat for it from both sides at the end. I guess it has to stay that lonely corner that some people enjoy visiting, some people visit only when they're bored, and most don't even bother with, which is unfortunate.
 

_{P.S: I mentioned conclave's barrier to entry a lot in my posts, so I guess I have to also add that I personally don't consider myself stuck behind that barrier, so it's not "my" problem with conclave, but rather a problem I still see with it despite personally having pushed past it already. I'm no good at conclave, but that's only because I rarely ever feel like actually playing it, rather than wanting to play but failing to actually get into it and push past that barrier.}

Edited February 18, 2018 by aerelm

[Loxyen]

17 hours ago, aerelm said:

Good thing about that question is that it's already been asked and answered long ago, so instead of trying to come up with our own reasonings, we can easily just look at the history of an actually successful and extremely popular at the time (the two things that conclave is not) fast-paced competitive arena shooter: Quake series.

Here's a Quake vet explaining the issue quite well (2:25 to 3:55). This video is of course about Quake, not Warframe, but everything said there applies in the context of conclave as well, which shows that it's essentially the exact same issue in two similar games.

The thing is that lots of games just try to copy successful concepts to gain some of that success too. Which is resulting into further casualization to make it more appealing for the average casual player with those money bags. I mean... devs got to live from something too right?

However Warframe with its unique movement system already underwent drastically changes in terms of speed. And even before that changes it was fun and playable. I remember those times in the 1.0 version quite well when there used to be some self proclaimed quake pros bumping into Conclave matches with the expectation to wreck everyone in their path. Just to find themselves flaming and rage quitting because they couldn't handle that entirely different gameplay. Even after the movement system change we used to have faster speed than we experience these days. Conclave literally underwent its mobility nerfs to be more appealing for players from other shooters already. Any further change would break its concept and change it into being just another copy of *add random shooter name here*. Whats wrong about getting into an entirely new game if it appears to be interesting for you? Only thing that would come to my mind is laziness. Being to lazy for putting the required effort into it. And thats exactly why a lot of the pve community is bashing without a reason on Conclave too. Sure there are different skill levels and there could be a better distinction to simulate a progress ladder. But skill is something you have to gain, not something you'll get gifted.

 

As you just said:

1 hour ago, aerelm said:

I'm no good at conclave, but that's only because I rarely ever feel like actually playing it, rather than wanting to play but failing to actually get into it and push past that barrier.

You would be surprised if there was a count to the ppl who do the same.

 

 

Here some examples for comparison:

The difference in speed between the old 1.0 copter vs bullet jump

Spoiler

 

A Conclave example of 1.0

(note: it wasn't just copter back then. Sling shot wall runs used to stack good amounts of momentum too but were less used in pve because of the map design)

Spoiler

 

 

A recent Conclave example

(note: the recent version is more about animation cancels)

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Loxyen