Can I please have a refund?

[Bobmcq11]

Guys, this wasn’t a super serious flame thread or anything, this was me just expressing my bad luck putting 8 forma into two recently buffed weapons only to have them get “fixed,” (nerfed) immediately upon completion of said formaing, greatly reducing the effectiveness of said weapons.

Edit to add- I truly think Warframe is one of the best games I’ve ever played. I had over a thousand hours in Destiny 1 and watched them ruin the franchise with Destiny 2, and the developers here seem to have a lot better grasp on what the players want. I don’t want to come across as a complainer, this is more about my bad luck than anything.

-Bob

Edited February 23, 2018 by Bobmcq11

[Tricky5hift]

 

[Twilight053]

-snip-

Edited February 23, 2018 by Twilight053

[GunRunnerX]

4 hours ago, Ker-Blammo said:

I mean... Did you not see the original patch notes? They literally wrote how they meant to change them and the hot fix implemented the changes they wrote about a few days prior... You should read up on the stuff you're playing victim towards.

This is a good excuse for DE's poor balancing of new and existing content.  Players shouldn't even have to read patch notes to consider whether something is worth using.  If the game is designed so poorly that you need to comb forums and read every line of updates and hotfix notes, I'm sorry that's not the player's fault.  When there's not even a consistent foundation to stand on you often find yourself falling to the ground.

[Gremlin]

5 minutes ago, GunRunnerX said:

This is a good excuse for DE's poor balancing of new and existing content.  Players shouldn't even have to read patch notes to consider whether something is worth using.  If the game is designed so poorly that you need to comb forums and read every line of updates and hotfix notes, I'm sorry that's not the player's fault.  When there's not even a consistent foundation to stand on you often find yourself falling to the ground.

Yet the player is watching YouTube videos about the changes. If they're interested in researching, why not assume they read the patch notes? I feel it's a very common thing to do... Especially when you're aware there were changes. I feel you're just trying to make an excuse to attack de for a very minor mistake... I mean the hot fix came out what, a day after the changes? And that's after the proposed changes were posted on the forums for a few days. Maybe you want to remain ignorant to what the devs are trying to do, but it's in public view when they post here. There's no excuse to say you were blindsided. Maybe this will teach the op and yourself to take a look at the patchnotes when you see there's an update, unless you get a kick out of making a big stink on honest mistakes. 

[GunRunnerX]

1 minute ago, Ker-Blammo said:

Yet the player is watching YouTube videos about the changes. If they're interested in researching, why not assume they read the patch notes? I feel it's a very common thing to do... Especially when you're aware there were changes. I feel you're just trying to make an excuse to attack de for a very minor mistake... I mean the hot fix came out what, a day after the changes? And that's after the proposed changes were posted on the forums for a few days. Maybe you want to remain ignorant to what the devs are trying to do, but it's in public view when they post here. There's no excuse to say you were blindsided. Maybe this will teach the op and yourself to take a look at the patchnotes when you see there's an update, unless you get a kick out of making a big stink on honest mistakes. 

Except, if the game had good design principles, you would not need to worry about watching the youtube videos and read up on patch notes.  Even just strictly from a design perspective, it's unfavorable.  

The player watched for the changes and then got excited to invest time on the new content/changes only for the carpet to get pulled out from under him because he missed a line of text in the patch notes that they planned to change them again.  There should be no requirement to cross check 50 different resources to make a simple decision such as trying out a re-balanced or new weapon.  Maybe you like doing it but it should not be forced.

And as for learning a lesson, I'm not going to learn anything because I wouldn't be mad about wasting resources on a new weapon build, since you can complete the vast majority of the game's content with a pea shooter. 

[Gremlin]

16 minutes ago, GunRunnerX said:

Except, if the game had good design principles, you would not need to worry about watching the youtube videos and read up on patch notes.  Even just strictly from a design perspective, it's unfavorable.  

The player watched for the changes and then got excited to invest time on the new content/changes only for the carpet to get pulled out from under him because he missed a line of text in the patch notes that they planned to change them again.  There should be no requirement to cross check 50 different resources to make a simple decision such as trying out a re-balanced or new weapon.  Maybe you like doing it but it should not be forced.

And as for learning a lesson, I'm not going to learn anything because I wouldn't be mad about wasting resources on a new weapon build, since you can complete the vast majority of the game's content with a pea shooter. 

Are there any games where as soon as an update happens, players know every single thing that has been included or changed as soon as the get in the game? Sure some games have some announcements that'll show you some big additions or features, and actually wf does that on the launcher, but if you want an indepth look, you need to check patch notes. In any game for that matter. And actually some don't give you as in depth look as wfs does. 

 

It wasn't just a line, it was a paragraph explaining the mechanic. If you want to skim the notes, you're the one that's ultimately responsible. No one but yourself is pulling the carpet from under yourself. 

 

Sure go ahead. But watch out because that pea shooter might get a small change and and hell will break loose. 

[(XBOX)Solargeo]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)DevilishSix said:

Changes not working as intended is ALWAYS the bail the developer out excuse.  I am so tired of hearing that BS, in a game where people spend real money on stuff they want to just have it changed at a whim.  Is borderline stealing from a player and I am SOOOOO glad world governments are starting to look into publisher and developer unfair practices to consumers, because this idea of them policing themselves is NOT working and unfair to consumers most times.  Time for consumer protection laws in the gaming industry just like other industries.  Also don't apologize for their actions, it should be right when released for consumption the first time, if not refunds should be done when changed.

Well it sounds like he wants a forma refund.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, GunRunnerX said:

Except, if the game had good design principles, you would not need to worry about watching the youtube videos and read up on patch notes.  Even just strictly from a design perspective, it's unfavorable.  

In a perfect world maybe. Sadly a perfect world is one where we do not live. For every well-crafted mechanical masterpiece like Half Life 2 we get other good games like Dark Souls, Hollow Knight, or indeed Warframe that sadly need us to head up to a wiki or forums to have one or two of its mechanics clarified. Hell, fighting game communities do this all the time and no one bats an eye

[Illithar]

34 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

In a perfect world maybe. Sadly a perfect world is one where we do not live. For every well-crafted mechanical masterpiece like Half Life 2 we get other good games like Dark Souls, Hollow Knight, or indeed Warframe that sadly need us to head up to a wiki or forums to have one or two of its mechanics clarified. Hell, fighting game communities do this all the time and no one bats an eye

Just to add: Minecraft and Terraria are also 'Wiki Games' that have little to no explanation of mechanics within the games themselves.

Hell, World of Warcraft was basically this, at least back when I still played. Which was... about 7 or 8 years ago now. Jeezuz that game has been a thing for a long time... 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

This is about the "ramp up per target" nonsense that now, in its "fixed" state,
means every time you switch targets or even slip off your current target for a nanosecond,
your damage drops down to 10% and needs a second of uninterrupted fire again to climb back to normal.

I trust DE to not leave it as-is, but in the mean time, this is a gut punch after the short-lived "woo beams" euphoria :(

To be honest, though, this makes sense.  If you fire a laser at a target to heat said target....it takes time to build up heat and burn through. 

The LASER is not instantly hot upon hitting it, it is the atom of the object it is aimed at that become hot.  It takes time to energize and "heat up" the atoms.  So, by that logic, if you move off of it, it takes time to REheat the object again.

Now we could debate about an object retaining heat, and what the armors are made of, temperatures in environments we're fighting in, and so on....but thats ALOT more data to implement, and thus alot more bugs to risk.

As is, it makes sense.

[NinjaZeku]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

makes sense

You could argue that, but, is that really how weapons in a space ninja game should be balanced?

Instead of, I don't know, being fun to use? (See also discussions on "realistic" lethal self-damage, bleh.)

I wanna sweep mah lazor across groups of enemies, not use them as a limited-range single-target melter
... which has its own charm, sure, but that spot is pretty much already filled by Shotguns,
a weapon type that - for the most part - also doesn't just stop working past a certain range entirely
(and with Punch Through / e.g. Acid Shells isn't even necessarily all that single-target, either).

Maybe some Beams were a tad too strong for a second there (Amprex OMG), but that could've been solved
by smaller / individual nerfs rather than just an all-encompassing stomp into the ground.

[Bobmcq11]

To clarify, I do make a point to read patch notes. If there was a note in the original patch post stating that they weren’t working as intended and a hot fix is inbound, then I missed it and it is on me. 

 

Edit it to add, because I went back to check, where the heck is it noted in the patch notes that beam weapons weren’t working as intended?

Edited February 24, 2018 by Bobmcq11

[DoomFruit]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

To be honest, though, this makes sense.  If you fire a laser at a target to heat said target....it takes time to build up heat and burn through.

You're not heating the target. You're cutting it. The whole point of ANY cutting tool is to concentrate your effort, whether that's mechanical (in the case of saws, chisels and knives; this is also the case for a water jet cutter, or ion beam on very small scale) or thermal (lasers, blowtorches).

If you're trying to cut a steel beam in two, you don't sandblast the whole thing. You cut a thin line through the middle with your saw.

If you're using a laser cutter on a steel sheet, you're not defocussing the beam and melting the entire thing, you're lasering out a very fine line exactly where you point it.

If you use a water jet cutter, you're not soaking your steel sheet in water and waiting for the whole thing to rust away, you're blasting a very tiny area with a very high pressure stream.

The only thing that even remotely approaches this possibility is a flamethrower, and the fact that the target's entire body temperature gets raised is secondary to the actual killing effect of destroying surface tissue (eg. lungs, can't breathe if they're cooked) and blood loss from said destroyed tissue.

STOP USING THE BOILING KETTLE ANALOGY. IT DOESN'T FIT HERE.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

19 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

You're not heating the target. You're cutting it. The whole point of ANY cutting tool is to concentrate your effort, whether that's mechanical (in the case of saws, chisels and knives; this is also the case for a water jet cutter, or ion beam on very small scale) or thermal (lasers, blowtorches).

If you're trying to cut a steel beam in two, you don't sandblast the whole thing. You cut a thin line through the middle with your saw.

If you're using a laser cutter on a steel sheet, you're not defocussing the beam and melting the entire thing, you're lasering out a very fine line exactly where you point it.

If you use a water jet cutter, you're not soaking your steel sheet in water and waiting for the whole thing to rust away, you're blasting a very tiny area with a very high pressure stream.

The only thing that even remotely approaches this possibility is a flamethrower, and the fact that the target's entire body temperature gets raised is secondary to the actual killing effect of destroying surface tissue (eg. lungs, can't breathe if they're cooked) and blood loss from said destroyed tissue.

STOP USING THE BOILING KETTLE ANALOGY. IT DOESN'T FIT HERE.

Dude, stop freaking out and read what I wrote.  It EXACTLY fits here.  Thermodynamics is what it is.

A laser doesn't "cut" just by lighting something up.  It superheats the atoms of a precise point and causes them to energize and, basically, break their bonds and separate.  

That takes time to do.

So yeah, my "boiling kettle analogy" works here...and anywhere we're talking about heat = damage.

This is the same reason you can stick your hand in a 400 degree oven and NOT instantly burst into flames :P  (That's getting into the Leidenfrost Effect and more, but that's another topic)

Suffice it to say, no laser exists that will instantly cut through anything.

Water cutters use FORCE, not HEAT, and SHARP EDGES use their thinness to move BETWEEN molecules and separate them that way, again, not requiring TIME as a factor.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make me wrong.  I'm trying to teach ya somethin'.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Dude, stop freaking out and read what I wrote.  It EXACTLY fits here.  Thermodynamics is what it is.

A laser doesn't "cut" just by lighting something up.  It superheats the atoms of a precise point and causes them to energize and, basically, break their bonds and separate.  

That takes time to do.

So yeah, my "boiling kettle analogy" works here...and anywhere we're talking about heat = damage.

This is the same reason you can stick your hand in a 400 degree oven and NOT instantly burst into flames :P  (That's getting into the Leidenfrost Effect and more, but that's another topic)

Suffice it to say, no laser exists that will instantly cut through anything.

Water cutters use FORCE, not HEAT, and SHARP EDGES use their thinness to move BETWEEN molecules and separate them that way, again, not requiring TIME as a factor.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make me wrong.  I'm trying to teach ya somethin'.

Actually, if you are talking about using a high energy laser vs an organic target, there is much more complexity than simply heating the target to disrupt its molecular bonds. You have to take into account combustion of the flesh caused by ignition via the heat applied by the laser, the ionizing effects causing DNA breakdown, the expansion of cellular water causing cell rupture etc. Also, the dispersion of material causing adiabatic cooling during material ablation and all, which disperses the beam and reduces further damage. But the physics and chemistry in Warframe is probably not so complex.

Even against a non organic target, a high energy laser actually can cause the surrounding air to react with the material if it is sufficiently reactive. Many metals can actually combine with oxygen to form flames, and that is only counting the thermal part of things. Even then, the vaporizing of metals generates shockwaves and spall against the inner flesh, not just causes a cutting effect through the metals and flesh. This is why you simply don't go near a laser cutter in real life. Flux Rifle and Spectra are probably the closest to this sort of laser

Considering some beams, like the Nukor and Cycron do radiation damage, they are probably gamma ray beams/X ray lasers. These have the additional effect of inducing ionization in metals as well as flesh, which causes large amounts of organic damage NOT through application of heat, but via direct cellular destruction due to ionizing radiation. Of course, given how focused said weapons are, all the effects of a heating laser would apply as well. Liquefaction of internal organs due to high energy radiation burns is not unheard of.

Amprex causes electrical bursts, so it wouldn't even follow the laser principle. The main killing power of electricity comes from severe damage to neurological function as the body is based on electricty as the main signal conductor, and nerves + the brain is quite conductive, yet still has resistance to high voltages (as with all materials). This would cause severe convulsions, arrythmias of the heart or even directly burn nerves depending on current.

Synapse is likely similar to a pressure cutter using acid, so make what you want of that.

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Guest

[DoomFruit]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Dude, stop freaking out and read what I wrote.  It EXACTLY fits here.  Thermodynamics is what it is.

A laser doesn't "cut" just by lighting something up.  It superheats the atoms of a precise point and causes them to energize and, basically, break their bonds and separate.  

That takes time to do.

Yes, it takes time to do. That's because it's starting from the outside where the laser touches the material and working in once the surface material has been ablated. This process is already handled in the game via damage numbers and hitpoints. This process takes microseconds at most for each layer - because you're ONLY heating that layer. If you want to get into thermodynamics, cutting something with focussed heat is a very non-equilibrium system, most similar to adiabatic if you want to describe it that way. It relies on the fact that you're only breaking the bonds at which you're pointing the laser.

Boiling kettle analogies work only if you're heating the entire object up to full temperature and cooking it that way. Notice that a laser cutter does not melt the entire object when it works, so the system is by definition not in equilibrium. The analogy also fails when dealing with particle and ion beams, which act more like a nanoscale water jet cutter or sandblaster.

 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Suffice it to say, no laser exists that will instantly cut through anything.

Water cutters use FORCE, not HEAT, and SHARP EDGES use their thinness to move BETWEEN molecules and separate them that way, again, not requiring TIME as a factor.

Water jet cutters and mechanical tools also require time to cut things. They're not instant either. All these things are already handled by the hitpoint mechanic - more HP = either stronger armour or thicker material to cut through.

Having the emitter itself need to build up to full power and then cool down can make sense (namely that huge transients are bad for electronics). Putting a timer on each target does not.

[Zeclem]

On 23.02.2018 at 5:53 PM, SteamlordD said:

It's funny that they called it a "fix" when it was explained in the original post and sounded nothing like what the finished result is. Another example of their policy of backpedaling and claiming something was a bug or an exploit. They like to blame the players rather than admitting mistakes.

i mean, they didnt really call it an exploit. and how the hell saying that "it was a bug" was blaming players? its putting the blame on themselves.

On 23.02.2018 at 5:59 PM, DoomFruit said:

To the current topic of beam weapons. For years, they've been an utter joke because of their once per second tick rate on which damage or procs could be applied. This was made even worse because they took a point of ammo more than once per second. They weren't even worth considering for any serious arsenal. The patch hit, and suddenly they became valid choices. Not the absolute final items - I still find it hard to drop my sanctigris (<3 healblast) and aklex prime, but the top-end beam weapons became comparable to top-end bullet and projectile weapons. At that point, you (as a game designer) stop there. They're now comparable, the pool of viable weapons has just increased massively. What you do NOT do at this point is to throw a bunch of pointless disadvantages on to the weapons which are now comparable to the old top gear. You do that, and everyone just goes back to using the old stuff. Case in point: sniper weapons. How many of those do you see during gameplay?

The take-away point here is that intent can be just as broken as mechanics. The intent of beam weapons having this target switching cooldown is what needs to be fixed, not the fact that the stupid mechanic didn't go all out from the start.

for years they had some quite notable members like amprex, ignis and quanta vandal but yeah, lets call them jokes. these weapons, and all of them have became god tier with these changes to the point of making other weapons not as good. thats never what de wanted but sure, keep telling yourself that weapons werent overtuned to hell and back while this is a thing: 

On 23.02.2018 at 6:21 PM, (Xbox One)DevilishSix said:

Changes not working as intended is ALWAYS the bail the developer out excuse.  I am so tired of hearing that BS, in a game where people spend real money on stuff they want to just have it changed at a whim.  Is borderline stealing from a player and I am SOOOOO glad world governments are starting to look into publisher and developer unfair practices to consumers, because this idea of them policing themselves is NOT working and unfair to consumers most times.  Time for consumer protection laws in the gaming industry just like other industries.  Also don't apologize for their actions, it should be right when released for consumption the first time, if not refunds should be done when changed.

you sir has just said the most stupidest thing ever that ive seen in this thread. congrats. 

18 hours ago, GunRunnerX said:

This is a good excuse for DE's poor balancing of new and existing content.  Players shouldn't even have to read patch notes to consider whether something is worth using.  If the game is designed so poorly that you need to comb forums and read every line of updates and hotfix notes, I'm sorry that's not the player's fault.  When there's not even a consistent foundation to stand on you often find yourself falling to the ground.

yeah players shouldnt read the changes to the game to know whats going at all. perfect logic. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Zeclem

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

47 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Actually, if you are talking about using a high energy laser vs an organic target, there is much more complexity than simply heating the target to disrupt its molecular bonds. You have to take into account combustion of the flesh caused by ignition via the heat applied by the laser, the ionizing effects causing DNA breakdown, the expansion of cellular water causing cell rupture etc. Also, the dispersion of material causing adiabatic cooling during material ablation and all, which disperses the beam and reduces further damage. But the physics and chemistry in Warframe is probably not so complex.

Even against a non organic target, a high energy laser actually can cause the surrounding air to react with the material if it is sufficiently reactive. Many metals can actually combine with oxygen to form flames, and that is only counting the thermal part of things. Even then, the vaporizing of metals generates shockwaves and spall against the inner flesh, not just causes a cutting effect through the metals and flesh. This is why you simply don't go near a laser cutter in real life. Flux Rifle and Spectra are probably the closest to this sort of laser

Considering some beams, like the Nukor and Cycron do radiation damage, they are probably gamma ray beams/X ray lasers. These have the additional effect of inducing ionization in metals as well as flesh, which causes large amounts of organic damage NOT through application of heat, but via direct cellular destruction due to ionizing radiation. Of course, given how focused said weapons are, all the effects of a heating laser would apply as well. Liquefaction of internal organs due to high energy radiation burns is not unheard of.

Amprex causes electrical bursts, so it wouldn't even follow the laser principle. The main killing power of electricity comes from severe damage to neurological function as the body is based on electricty as the main signal conductor, and nerves + the brain is quite conductive, yet still has resistance to high voltages (as with all materials). This would cause severe convulsions, arrythmias of the heart or even directly burn nerves depending on current.

Synapse is likely similar to a pressure cutter using acid, so make what you want of that.

 

I agree 100% ... Was just oversimplifying my point because ages on Warframe forums range from 12-62, basically.  So, didn't seem worth going into that detail.

That being said, I like your points!

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

43 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Yes, it takes time to do. That's because it's starting from the outside where the laser touches the material and working in once the surface material has been ablated. This process is already handled in the game via damage numbers and hitpoints. This process takes microseconds at most for each layer - because you're ONLY heating that layer. If you want to get into thermodynamics, cutting something with focussed heat is a very non-equilibrium system, most similar to adiabatic if you want to describe it that way. It relies on the fact that you're only breaking the bonds at which you're pointing the laser.

Boiling kettle analogies work only if you're heating the entire object up to full temperature and cooking it that way. Notice that a laser cutter does not melt the entire object when it works, so the system is by definition not in equilibrium. The analogy also fails when dealing with particle and ion beams, which act more like a nanoscale water jet cutter or sandblaster.

 

Water jet cutters and mechanical tools also require time to cut things. They're not instant either. All these things are already handled by the hitpoint mechanic - more HP = either stronger armour or thicker material to cut through.

Having the emitter itself need to build up to full power and then cool down can make sense (namely that huge transients are bad for electronics). Putting a timer on each target does not.

You were the one who originally claimed I was comparing to a Boiling Kettle...not I.  

That being said, I think you're missing my point, so I'm just gonna leave this alone.

I'm not talking about full body combustion from contact....I was pointing out that this isn't Gundam Wing, and lasers don't just sweep across fields and blow stuff up instantly.

Y'all want constant-fire Opticor, and that's just no.

[Guest]

Actually, my points are made to prove that Ramp Up per target is not really that legitimate, considering the physics behind a laser is too complex to just say "it heats molecules, makes them vibrate and then causes seperation of ajacent molecules"

Especially when the case has been proven that not all beams in Warframe are in fact heat lasers. However making DE code each beam gun seperately is a bit too extravagant for a game.

[DoomFruit]

7 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

for years they had some quite notable members like amprex, ignis and quanta vandal but yeah, lets call them jokes. these weapons, and all of them have became god tier with these changes to the point of making other weapons not as good. thats never what de wanted but sure, keep telling yourself that weapons werent overtuned to hell and back while this is a thing

"to the point of making other weapons not as good" - Judging by how DE recently went and put all weapons into explicit tiers of effectiveness, I fail to see the problem with this. True, not all beam weapons were crap - ignis was good because of its massive cone of fire and obstacle penetration, the quanta at least drained ammo fairly slowly and the amprex had raw damage output going for it, but the only one I ever saw in any actual gameplay was the ignis.

And note that beam weapons didn't immediately crap over everything. They all have a very sharp point at which their damage simply stops existing. Not a slow degradation like shotguns or any other weapon with appreciable bullet spread, but past that point you are not physically capable of harming anything with the beam weapon. Their very nature of continuous versus spiked damage (eg. lex, dread, opticor, tigris) means that you can't point at something and immediately remove that one object as a threat; it also means that they eat more ammo per target, and that you need to constantly point the beam at your target at relatively close range (rapid and drastic evasive manoeuvres will throw off your aim). Even after the immediate changes, I still couldn't quite justify taking a phage instead of a sanctigris because of the longer time to kill, lower ammo efficiency, continuous exposure to enemy fire and hard range cutoff; not to mention the absence of the loka healing explosion (which is also why I don't use the tigris prime).

They had their drawbacks even after the buff. They had enough to stop them from being an immediate first choice, but not too many that they would have been made worthless via death of a thousand cuts. They did not need to have their damage values slashed because it wasn't pointed at one specific target for a set period of time.

 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

You were the one who originally claimed I was comparing to a Boiling Kettle...not I.  

That being said, I think you're missing my point, so I'm just gonna leave this alone.

I'm not talking about full body combustion from contact....I was pointing out that this isn't Gundam Wing, and lasers don't just sweep across fields and blow stuff up instantly.

Y'all want constant-fire Opticor, and that's just no.

Kettle: this is true, I still had someone else's justification for a per-target damage ramp-up mechanic in my head, got the two of you mixed up and still had some leftover anger stored.

I don't want an instagib beam, I just don't want to be penalised for switching targets by a mechanic that doesn't make sense. I know that lasers don't blow things up instantly, but I do know that they don't heat up the entire thing and that the target area is deliberately chosen to be as small as possible precisely to get around the whole thermal inertia thing (also because you only want to apply damage to the edge which you're cutting). Finally, if there's some kind of overheat like this, then should it not also apply to moving the beam around on the same target? Shift the beam from the enemy's arm to their chest (whether it's because they turned or because your aim moved) and enjoy the warmup once more.

[Zeclem]

8 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

"to the point of making other weapons not as good" - Judging by how DE recently went and put all weapons into explicit tiers of effectiveness, I fail to see the problem with this. True, not all beam weapons were crap - ignis was good because of its massive cone of fire and obstacle penetration, the quanta at least drained ammo fairly slowly and the amprex had raw damage output going for it, but the only one I ever saw in any actual gameplay was the ignis.

And note that beam weapons didn't immediately crap over everything. They all have a very sharp point at which their damage simply stops existing. Not a slow degradation like shotguns or any other weapon with appreciable bullet spread, but past that point you are not physically capable of harming anything with the beam weapon. Their very nature of continuous versus spiked damage (eg. lex, dread, opticor, tigris) means that you can't point at something and immediately remove that one object as a threat; it also means that they eat more ammo per target, and that you need to constantly point the beam at your target at relatively close range (rapid and drastic evasive manoeuvres will throw off your aim). Even after the immediate changes, I still couldn't quite justify taking a phage instead of a sanctigris because of the longer time to kill, lower ammo efficiency, continuous exposure to enemy fire and hard range cutoff; not to mention the absence of the loka healing explosion (which is also why I don't use the tigris prime).

They had their drawbacks even after the buff. They had enough to stop them from being an immediate first choice, but not too many that they would have been made worthless via death of a thousand cuts. They did not need to have their damage values slashed because it wasn't pointed at one specific target for a set period of time.

range has always been a non issue in majority of this game. dont kid yourself with that. all of the beam weapons have plenty range. 

show me a weapon that kills lvl 155 corrupted enemies that fast enmasse. that "continuous vs burst" is completely moot. just like ammo efficiency when i can easily go through any sortie mission without ever running out of ammo on beam weapons without a carrier. 

oh noes, you need to aim your gun! how much of a disadvantage! and no, that range, again, very much plenty. and what kind of a build youre using on phage to actually take longer to kill anything compared to sancti tigris? 

i actually should've stopped humoring this conversation after "range is short on them". and i will now, after seeing the "aiming required" complaint as well. 

 

[DoomFruit]

1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

i actually should've stopped humoring this conversation after "range is short on them". and i will now, after seeing the "aiming required" complaint as well.

"continuous aiming" - try reading next time. If you're spending time constantly pointing your gun at something, your evasion gets massively hampered. That gets you shot. Spike weapons work against high level enemy crowds because you can bullet jump to avoid their fire, put one or two quick shot into the head of a single enemy for maximum damage, then immediately jump away to avoid the counterfire.

[Zeclem]

Just now, DoomFruit said:

"continuous aiming" - try reading next time. If you're spending time constantly pointing your gun at something, your evasion gets massively hampered. That gets you shot. Spike weapons work against high level enemy crowds because you can bullet jump to avoid their fire, put one or two quick shot into the head of a single enemy for maximum damage, then immediately jump away to avoid the counterfire.

or, or, you could use cc like any sensible person when your survivability is not good enough cus we all know how much of a bullet evasion provided by any parkour movement provides aka might as well be zero.