So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[MJ12]

3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

And it likely can't be done while retaining an environment with near the level of accessibility to free players.  There's a reason Path of Exile also doesn't have an auction house.  There's a reason Diablo 3 removed their auction house.  What exactly does a tax accomplish aside from hurting free players who rely on trading to reach the level of paid players?

Diablo 3 nuked most if not all instances of player trading at almost the same time it nuked the auction house, because the determination was that people purchasing items, in general, not the auction house, was causing huge problems regarding getting players to play the game. If you want to take Diablo 3 as an example, DE should nuke tradechat entirely except for rivens, and only allow their exchange for other rivens, so people are playing the game to get loot rather than grinding up trade fodder.

Notably, Diablo 3 is also not a free-to-play game. Therefore, they could do Loot 2.0, which drastically increased drop chances, because Blizzard was profitable if people were spending $0.00 on microtransactions. Warframe is a free to play game which desires a steady influx of real money purchases. I suspect many of these purchases are things you can't actually get by trading, either, like slots and potatoes and cosmetics,to boot.

Also, any trade tax would be taken out of the sale price as a cut. That's why it's called a tax, rather than an auction fee.

[TinchoArca]

There should be different kind of tradings, one where you sell/buy in relation a price DE stablished and players put the things there and then you just buy to some random player and this random player receives the pl,  and another where all things goes like it goes today in the trading chat or at least a maximum/minimum price (in pl) to buy/sell something except you explicitly say you want to gift something and then you can give it at any price or item. 

[Aggh]

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

 

This is actually how market economies ensure that prices for goods and services are being valued at the 'correct' value, not some sort of bad thing. If, for example, people were selling Argon Scope at 200p, but you knew it was worth 500p and people would buy it at 500p, it would definitely be worth it to go and buy up every Argon Scope and ensure that the value of the item goes up to what most people would pay for it (500p). Now there is no difference between the value the buyer believes the mod has (500p) and the value the seller believes the mod has (500p). If it turns out you're wrong though, and the price you set is way too high, you've just run yourself out of a crapton of Platinum on a losing bet.

The benefit of auction houses is not just convenience, but that prices will rapidly converge on what is more or less the 'true' price of the item, based upon its utility, rarity, novelty value, and various other factors. This means that someone might not be able to get a steal and buy a mod that is worth 200p for 50p or something, sure. But it also means someone won't get ripped off buying a 50p mod for 200p or selling a 200p mod for 50p.

I suspect that an auction house would also make it easier for people to actually trade items for plat, which would overall put some downward pressure on prices while leading to more sales. For example, there's a ton of stuff I'd be more willing to buy or sell if I knew I could reliably turn it into plat or buy up the remaining bits and pieces. And there's often a bunch of stuff that might make some money but is not really worth hawking because the margins are crap compared to the efforts.

The problem is that the true price of most items (or at least prime items) is zilch.  Existing supply is massive and drop rates on most items are much more reasonable than they are in most games.  The artificial barrier that the current trade system creates between the actual supply and demand is what keeps prices for most items at a point where they're actually worth the effort needed to obtain them and put them up for sale.

Considering that most items are still cheaper than buying a weapon from the market, the only real downside to the current trade environment is people not willing to use warframe.market or trade chat won't be able to earn plat of items easily.  They wouldn't have an easy time if the auction house went up (since the way it'd drive prices down would increase the required effort to make any plat) so not having an AH isn't much of a loss to those players anyways.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Aggh

[Loswaith]

4 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

It's not like DE weren't aware of the existence of auction houses when they designed the economy of warframe.  Thankfully they had the foresight not to fall into the trap other games did.

DE never planned for the game to have a trading economy at all when they added trading (so they had no foresight at all), that is why they didn't add a trading post/auction house.  It was added so people could help out their clans and friends by swapping or gifting prime parts and mods.  This is why the dojo got the trading station and trading just wasn't initially integrated from some other person to person means.  DE also had many other more important things to spend their time on than a process they weren't even sure would be used much at all.

The were also hugely reluctant to even include platinum in the process (to the point of saying it is not likely to happen) and even consulted with other developers that had implemented such systems not long before the trading roll-out was done.

You just have to look at how DE releases everything, they are rarely (if ever) a complete system.  They release something "good enough" and tweak the process as it goes along.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Loswaith

[Kaminariss]

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yeah it's not like an in-game feature endorsed by the dev would be far more likely to be used than third party.

If there is no other alternative 3rd party will be used, unlike finding a group to play, warframe.market can be a fully featured substitute for AH, so far I have made 99% of all of my transactions using warframe.market. The only thing I ever bought from trade chat was pet imprints, and it was awful experience.

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yeah.  Cause you don't give a crap about new free players.

Tax is a common thing. Let me tell you this, DE wants you to pay with real money. They are not a charity company. Sorry to burst your bubble but thats how "free" to play model works.

 

6 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

you'll blind yourself to the unavoidable repercussions of said convenience.

I think you are some kind of zealot. What repercussions? Who said they would need to remove normal trades? You would be still able to purchase directly from other players without paying tax in platinum. Warframe.market would still exists. Trade chat would still exist. You would be simply paying tax for convenience if you wanted to use AH. 

 

Being said that, I am not pro auction house, I am neutral. But because of real reason I have stated several times - there are limited things to buy.
Those who say it is bad for economy needs to get back to school cause they surely slept on economy classes.

[krc473]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

That is why I mentioned a maximum amount of around 600 plat! DE would not be setting prices outside of setting a lower and higher caps. A market is bound to fail without regulation. The point of the AH is not to take over the trade chat, it is only to give an alternative that does not require outsourcing to third party sites.

Setting a maximum means they have some control. And how do you define what the maximum is? Are all items/classes different? If you tell sellers, through this method you can only sell Mirage Prime for 25 plat*, but trade chat is not subject to that limitation, why use the auction house? *Example item and price.

If there is a reasonable chance that I can sell my item for more (due to DE's limit) in the auction house. Why would I want to use it? Simple, I wouldn't.

And keep in mind, the proposed tariff system. You lose a percentage of your plat from this. (I am not sure of any game that has this kind of charge for premium currency)

 

Can you explain why anyone would use this? Lets assume I want to sell Maiming Strike (a mod that apparently has an over 600 plat value). You are restricted to a maximum amount (600 plat), which you lose some of anyway (5-10% seems to be used in some games). So, if there is a 600 plat cap, and I lose 10% (60 plat) through the auction house, I effectively sold my mod for 540 plat. But someone using trade chat could sell it for 900 platinum (current top buy price). So, by using the Auction House and NOT trade chat, I have effectively lost about 360 platinum. FYI: that is around 20 USD of platinum (full price). In all seriousness, who would be okay with paying 20USD to sell a single in game item?

[(PSN)KresTias]

7 hours ago, Aggh said:

The problem is that the true price of most items (or at least prime items) is zilch.  Existing supply is massive and drop rates on most items are much more reasonable than they are in most games.  The artificial barrier that the current trade system creates between the actual supply and demand is what keeps prices for most items at a point where they're actually worth the effort needed to obtain them and put them up for sale.

Considering that most items are still cheaper than buying a weapon from the market, the only real downside to the current trade environment is people not willing to use warframe.market or trade chat won't be able to earn plat of items easily.  They wouldn't have an easy time if the auction house went up (since the way it'd drive prices down would increase the required effort to make any plat) so not having an AH isn't much of a loss to those players anyways.

if no limits for AH trades per day, thn yes, prices will go down, but if u have 3-5 trades most likely ppl will try sell their most valuable items. Cheap items they can keep for trade chat.

[SilverRook]

12 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Not from me.  It's basically an auction house.  The only thing that makes it somewhat tolerable is it's lack of use.

maybe if you read the post i made - but thanks for illustrating my point ;) 

12 hours ago, SilverRook said:

Why not just integrate/buy warframemarket and rivenmarket into the game in the same format they are now?

 

I *THINK* thats what people are asking for...... am i wrong?

12 hours ago, SilverRook said:

Maybe have an interactive billboard in maroos bazaar with the current region/relays listings ?

basically i don't see a problem with the way things work now - ppl go to the site they look for what they want they click the link of person they want to buy from paste it into the game et voila "hi have you still got that thing", "sure, inv?" - both end up in dojo transaction done.

so integrating the same function the website has directly into the game via trading post seems the only logic next step

post your item - item gets held +tax(handling fee) person turns up to buy - you get platinum in the mail 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by SilverRook

[(PSN)TheDrift-]

Trade chat should be free, auction should cost 10% of sale price in plat...that way DE get their cut...not happy with DE getting their share?  Then  use trade chat. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by (PS4)TheDrift-

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

4 hours ago, krc473 said:

Setting a maximum means they have some control. And how do you define what the maximum is? Are all items/classes different? If you tell sellers, through this method you can only sell Mirage Prime for 25 plat*, but trade chat is not subject to that limitation, why use the auction house? *Example item and price.

If there is a reasonable chance that I can sell my item for more (due to DE's limit) in the auction house. Why would I want to use it? Simple, I wouldn't.

And keep in mind, the proposed tariff system. You lose a percentage of your plat from this. (I am not sure of any game that has this kind of charge for premium currency)

 

Can you explain why anyone would use this? Lets assume I want to sell Maiming Strike (a mod that apparently has an over 600 plat value). You are restricted to a maximum amount (600 plat), which you lose some of anyway (5-10% seems to be used in some games). So, if there is a 600 plat cap, and I lose 10% (60 plat) through the auction house, I effectively sold my mod for 540 plat. But someone using trade chat could sell it for 900 platinum (current top buy price). So, by using the Auction House and NOT trade chat, I have effectively lost about 360 platinum. FYI: that is around 20 USD of platinum (full price). In all seriousness, who would be okay with paying 20USD to sell a single in game item?

And who would honestly want to pay that absurdly high price? Good luck finding trades at a decent rate. The reason that people would use the AH is because they actually have lives and want to actually play the game on their time off, not waste time for a possibility of a single sale. How is that so hard to understand?

[PatternistSlave]

11 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Diablo 3 nuked most if not all instances of player trading at almost the same time it nuked the auction house, because the determination was that people purchasing items, in general, not the auction house, was causing huge problems regarding getting players to play the game. If you want to take Diablo 3 as an example, DE should nuke tradechat entirely except for rivens, and only allow their exchange for other rivens, so people are playing the game to get loot rather than grinding up trade fodder.

Notably, Diablo 3 is also not a free-to-play game. Therefore, they could do Loot 2.0, which drastically increased drop chances, because Blizzard was profitable if people were spending $0.00 on microtransactions. Warframe is a free to play game which desires a steady influx of real money purchases. I suspect many of these purchases are things you can't actually get by trading, either, like slots and potatoes and cosmetics,to boot.

Also, any trade tax would be taken out of the sale price as a cut. That's why it's called a tax, rather than an auction fee.

I'm not seeing what your point is.  A good portion of Warframe cannot be traded as you say yourself, but it's trading that allows free players to fully enjoy Warframe.  I don't know if you've played a lot of f2p games, but the ease at which a free player can obtain premium items/currency in WF is unparalleled.  Due in large part to the lack of things like auction houses that veterans would monopolize and botters would abuse.

9 hours ago, Loswaith said:

DE never planned for the game to have a trading economy at all when they added trading

Do I really have to read anything past this?  Seriously.  Look at what you've just written here.  I don't want to be mean, but just look at it.  DE aren't mentally deficient in any way that I've noticed.

8 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

DE wants you to pay with real money. They are not a charity company

No.  DE wants a game accessible to free players and paid alike.  Akin to LoL.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mWihuH_Cy0

8 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

What repercussions?

An increased likelihood of botting and decreased value of time compared to money.  Newer players having an avenue to obtain plat removed.  DE completely reworking their game economy as well as continually policing the system.

8 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Who said they would need to remove normal trades?

They wouldn't have to.  Normal trading would be less convenient and so go completely unused.

8 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

I am neutral

Yeah.  You're here only to troll.  You've said already.

18 minutes ago, SilverRook said:

maybe if you read the post i made

Maybe there is something of value in what you post, but if you start off with ridiculous statements I'm not likely to care.  Sorry.

[Urabask]

On 2/26/2018 at 2:36 AM, Loswaith said:

And yet that rad-share drop chances has not had enough impact on prime access sales for DE to have altered it in any way.
It is also only that chance under very limited circumstances; a 4 person squad with identical radiant relics (which is actually 34% to get at-least one rare), with a lot of setup to actually even get those odds. 
Any deviation from that and the chances drop significantly.  Thus the true drop rate of rare prime parts is significantly lower than that 34% in practice.

Even without that rare drops from relics have a 10% drop rate from radiant relics.  That is still significantly higher than anything of value in most MMOs.  It doesn't even take all that much effort to get a radshare together either.  You just go to recruitment chat and spend a few minutes getting a party together.  In other MMOs you have to do this just to run content at all.

Currently you can get everything from Prime Access that drops from a relic for 330 plat.  If people are still buying prime access it's because of the platinum and the accessories.

10 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Tax is a common thing. Let me tell you this, DE wants you to pay with real money. They are not a charity company. Sorry to burst your bubble but thats how "free" to play model works.

 

F2P games rely on a small portion of their player population buying anything with real money.  They likely have 5% or less of their player population actually spending money regularly.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Urabask

[SilverRook]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

Maybe there is something of value in what you post, but if you start off with ridiculous statements I'm not likely to care.  Sorry.

K.....

 

Out of interest what part of this was a ridiculous statement ? 

Quote

Why not just integrate/buy warframemarket and rivenmarket into the game in the same format they are now?

I *THINK* thats what people are asking for...... am i wrong?

Maybe have an interactive billboard in maroos bazaar with the current region/relays listings ?

basically i don't see a problem with the way things work now - ppl go to the site they look for what they want they click the link of person they want to buy from paste it into the game et voila "hi have you still got that thing", "sure, inv?" - both end up in dojo transaction done.

so integrating the same function the website has directly into the game via trading post seems the only logic next step

post your item - item gets held +tax(handling fee) person turns up to buy - you get platinum in the mail 

 

[PatternistSlave]

18 minutes ago, SilverRook said:

K.....

 

Out of interest what part of this was a ridiculous statement ? 

My bad?  I did read your post.  Mistook you for someone else based on what you wrote me directly.  I'm really not sure why you wrote assuming I hadn't or why I should consider your post particularly noteworthy.

[SilverRook]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

My bad?  I did read your post.  Mistook you for someone else based on what you wrote me directly.  I'm really not sure why you wrote assuming I hadn't or why I should consider your post particularly noteworthy.

ummmm....this?

Quote

Mistook you for someone else based on what you wrote me directly.

But nice little back handed compliment at the end there. ;) 

 

[PatternistSlave]

12 minutes ago, SilverRook said:

ummmm....this?

If you're looking for me to address some specific point, please be specific.

[(PSN)Semyazza1985]

On 25.02.2018 at 12:49 AM, Nakrast said:

Because Warframe has a free market, and an Auction House will only make the life of goldsellers a lot easier and ruin the game.
 
Trade chat is fine as it is, use filters and you will do ok.

A big NO to Auction Houses (and same goes for marketplaces).

Totally agree with you.

Maybe some little improvements like 1h kicking all sellers with "wtb nothing", "pm if wtb", etc. statements just to pass trough filters.  

[Kaminariss]

4 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

An increased likelihood of botting and decreased value of time compared to money.  Newer players having an avenue to obtain plat removed.  DE completely reworking their game economy as well as continually policing the system.

I suggest to get back to school and learn how ecenomy works. Botting for what? Reselling items? With a limit of maximum 25 trades a day?

 

4 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

No.  DE wants a game accessible to free players and paid alike.  Akin to LoL.

This proves it all, you are delusional. A zealot that has no idea how "free" to play model works and how economy works.

You want to me to belive that all that platinum i ever spent or earned came from thin air? Bots are creating accounts, level them to MR2 and then trade the staring platinum and thats how plat is being kept in the game? No, thats idiotic.

Most of the plat was bought by someone in the first place. And how many of people with prime skins are you seeing? Usually thats at least 1 out of 4 from the squad.

It doesn't matter if they bought platinum from themselves.

Player A buys 2100 plat for ~$50, buys 3 vaulted primes from players B, C, D, Now those players buy some premium skins from the market.

Thats how some people think they play for free but in reality as someone once said (it was about Linux but it fits the current context):

Quote

"It’s Free Only If Your Time Is Worthless"

Quote

"Time is money my friend"

I suggest searching for that quotes in google before you ever make ridiculous statement as before.

[PatternistSlave]

10 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Most of the plat was bought by someone in the first place.

So?  The game wouldn't exist at all without paid players, but that doesn't make free players undesirable.

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your increasingly hostile flaming.  Personal attacks and insults have no place in these forums and don't make your argument any more compelling.  Nor will I further elaborate on the methods of cheaters.

[MJ12]

15 hours ago, Aggh said:

The problem is that the true price of most items (or at least prime items) is zilch.  Existing supply is massive and drop rates on most items are much more reasonable than they are in most games.  The artificial barrier that the current trade system creates between the actual supply and demand is what keeps prices for most items at a point where they're actually worth the effort needed to obtain them and put them up for sale.

Considering that most items are still cheaper than buying a weapon from the market, the only real downside to the current trade environment is people not willing to use warframe.market or trade chat won't be able to earn plat of items easily.  They wouldn't have an easy time if the auction house went up (since the way it'd drive prices down would increase the required effort to make any plat) so not having an AH isn't much of a loss to those players anyways.

If you use the time value of grinding out a rare part at ~5p ($1.00)/hour I'm not so sure that the value is really 'zilch.' First off you have

Furthermore there's an opportunity cost of grinding things out for sale that means you're not grinding things out for yourself. Unless you're a very high-ranked player with pretty much all the gear in the game, that opportunity cost is worth money. I agree that prices will probably fall on average, but I don't think they'd hit some sort of floor where you can get anything but vaulted prime bits for ~5p a piece. Obviously making a more serious determination of that would require a lot more data, though. But games like EVE have decent droprates for a lot of things and have a currency that is effectively convertible into USD, so it can be done.

Most things actually do sell for pretty reasonable prices anyhow if you're persistent in tradechat. The point is to cut out the middleman and let people sell things while playing the game.

At the very least, I believe that Riven mods should be given an auction house. Riven mods have a sharply limited supply (roughly 1 per 3 players doing sorties per day, minus however people end up using for their own), the good riven mods have an even more limited supply, their price point is sharply variable given weapon buffs/nerfs, and oftentimes selling them is a huge pain, especially given that there is no outside objective tool to value them. I think that it won't decrease the price of "godly" Rivens much while allowing people to sell niche rivens more reliably (because there is a very limited supply of godly Rivens), and honestly given that "godly" Rivens are being offered at ludicrous prices chopping a bit off the top probably won't be a bad thing.

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by MJ12

[Kaminariss]

22 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

make your argument any more compelling.

You had no arguments and spoke like you knew everything, while being wrong in just about everything.

• Economy arguments - totally missed, you still have no idea how supply and demand works
• Botting - Wrong, trade limit per day, plus Its pretty easy these days to detect bots.
• "Free players" - wrong, unless you wanna be stuck at 3 warframes and 2 weapons cause weapon slots, warframe slots etc.
• Insults? You started insulting people (page 3 first post, page 2 middle post)

On 25.02.2018 at 9:22 PM, PatternistSlave said:

An AH would make it easier to abuse your ignorance because it makes it all too easy for me to control prices.

On 25.02.2018 at 6:15 PM, PatternistSlave said:

If you're that deluded and ignorant there's nothing worth discussing. 

---

There was absolutely nothing correct in your arguments. Not a single valuable point against AH. All you have been doing is throwing some arbitrary statements with no value whatsoever.

The moment you make a purchase from DE shop is the moment you stop being a "free player" whatever you paid for plat or earned it in game.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Kaminariss
typo

[Urabask]

55 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

I suggest to get back to school and learn how ecenomy works. Botting for what? Reselling items? With a limit of maximum 25 trades a day?

This would really depend on the time and resources DE can dedicate to anti-botting solutions.  Otherwise they'll just brute force the limitations and make a ton of accounts to circumvent the trading restrictions.

21 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

Furthermore there's an opportunity cost of grinding things out for sale that means you're not grinding things out for yourself. Unless you're a very high-ranked player with pretty much all the gear in the game, that opportunity cost is worth money. I agree that prices will probably fall on average, but I don't think they'd hit some sort of floor where you can get anything but vaulted prime bits for ~5p a piece. Obviously making a more serious determination of that would require a lot more data, though. But games like EVE have decent droprates for a lot of things and have a currency that is effectively convertible into USD, so it can be done.

Rare drops from relics already drop to ~20P a month after release with few exceptions.

EVE isn't really a good comparison since in Warframe item value is also affected by the fact that players only need enough of any item to complete one set of it.

[PatternistSlave]

17 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

totally missed, you still have no idea how supply and demand works

Or it didn't have anything to do with the point I was making.

20 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Wrong, trade limit per day, plus Its pretty easy these days to detect bots.

I'm not writing a tutorial on how to cheat.  I'm glad you're so confident trade limits can't be worked around.

22 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

wrong, unless you wanna be stuck at 3 warframes and 2 weapons cause weapon slots, warframe slots etc

Funny.  I have way more than that somehow.

22 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Insults? You started insulting people (page 3 first post, page 2 middle post)

I'm sorry if the word ignorant offended, but that was what we were discussing.  Player ignorance of pricing.  Was not my intention to insult anyone at any rate.

25 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

The moment you make a purchase from DE shop is the moment you stop being a "free player" whatever you paid for plat or earned it in game.

If I got it from the game without paying anything I'm playing for free.

[Kaminariss]

11 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

I'm glad you're so confident trade limits can't be worked around.

Then enlighten us how you imagine a bot doing all those things by itself? You know that warframe already has anti cheating solution? People were baned by finishing mission too fast and you are going to create a bot that will act like human, level all the weapons, increase MR, get into market and start doing those measly 10 transactions per day to earn 20 plat.

16 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

I have way more than that somehow.

Then you are not a free player if you spent more than 50 plat on market.

16 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

If I got it from the game without paying anything I'm playing for free.

Let me fix that for you:

If I got it from the game without paying anything and if my time is worthless I'm playing for free.

No you are not playing for free. And let me explain it to you in transactions:

T1. Player A bought 2100plat for $50 (at this point 100p = $2.38)
T2. You sold your time (lets assume 1h because it usually takes 1h to earn 200p unless you are lucky) that was spent on farming relics to player A for 200plat ($4.76)
T3. You bought premium skin from market for those 200p ($4.76)

This means you already spent $4.76 in game. DE earned $50. Your hour in game eared you $4.76. Thats pretty low compared to a real life job dontcha think?

Now if i would need to be more specific your time is worth even less because:

• You need to get relics first
• You need to gather a party to make radshares
• You need to get void traces to upgrade those relics
• You need to wait untill good mission appears (you don't wanna burn relics on missions that take too long to open them)

 

[Pizzarugi]

7 hours ago, (PS4)TheDrift- said:

Trade chat should be free, auction should cost 10% of sale price in plat...that way DE get their cut...not happy with DE getting their share?  Then  use trade chat. 

Are you a poor peasant? Stay in the mud where you belong along with the price fixers and scammers!

Edited February 27, 2018 by Pizzarugi