damage 2.5 ideas?

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

firstly: excuse me if none of this makes much sense, or if it is a terrible idea. it is very late here at the moment and i had the idea driving home in my car.

OK, so

With the upcoming damage 2.5/khora update delayed due to backlash over proposed changes to the IPS damage system, it's probably high time we had some civil discussion on the state of status procs.
So, at the moment the current statuses look like this:
Impact:     Staggers                                   | Heat:     Stun/DoT                     | Blast:        AoE Knockdown
Puncture: Reduced damage output          | Cold:     Slow                             | Corrosive: Armour reduction
Slash:      Armour/shield ignoring DoT      | Electric: Chain attack/Stun        | Gas:         Toxin AoE
                                                                  | Toxin:     Shield ignoring DoT    | Magnetic:  Reduce Max Shields
                                                                                                                      | Radiation: Reduced accuracy/friendly fire
                                                                                                                      | Viral:         Reduced max health

And this is all well and dandy except for the fact that Slash completely obliterates puncture and impact in terms of viability.

Now, i personally believe that the damage types on the left should be very powerful, single-target procs, and that the procs on the right should be less powerful but hit multiple targets. Slash procs are already very powerful and single target so we dont really have to change them.

My proposed changes are as such (please read them before commenting)

IPS

Spoiler

Impact: Same as the changes proposed by the initial 2.5 changes, where multiple procs on the one target progresses from knockback to stun to knockdown. but no ragdolling of into the sunset like a team rocket impersonator! Instead, landing extra procs on a downed opponent prevents them from getting up, allowing you to use impact to stunlock the crap out of a single target.
Puncture: Functionally identical to the current corrosive proc, where it strips away armour, but with the added benefit of winding unarmoured foes, causing their accuracy to greatly suffer (for versatility) ("forgot to mention the possible effect of dealing bonus damage to shields on proc, to not limit it to much to grineer" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
Slash: (unchanged) 

Single Elements

Spoiler

Heat: Added benefit that the enemies that are on fire deal damage tics to enemies that are in close proximity (similar to the current gas proc), allowing you to get a real furnace going on a crowd of enemies.
Cold: (Can't think of any changes, if even necessary)
Electric: (unchanged)
Toxin: It already bypasses shields, so lets give it something for the grineer/infested to think about; prevents abilities like jetpacks and swarm/tar moa spit

Combi Elements

Spoiler

Blast: (unchanged)
Corrosive: Significantly weaker, but now AoE splash of corrosive acid, so it takes longer to chew through armour, but does it to multiple enemies.
Gas: Wider area, not as strong
Magnetic: effect reduced from 75% to 50%, but with the benefit of dealing damage to nearby enemy shields as well
Radiation: (already technically affects multiple targets, so unchanged)
Viral: reduces max health by only 5% BUT it can stack up to 50% AND the virus leaps to extra targets after a short delay; first to 2 extra targets, then those 2 to leap 2 more each so singular virus proc can affect a maximum of 7 targets

Possible alternatives provided by you guys!

Spoiler

@(PS4)LeBlingKing69 Suggests:
Cold: Procs stack, and depending on the numbers of procs, enemy is either slowed down or frozen completely. ("i like this! though it might take the spotlight away from frost" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
Puncture: one-time finisher damage. (eg: If an attack does 100 damage and procs Puncture, the 100 damage will be done in Finisher) This allows for puncture to go with the theme of it supposedly "countering armor". ("might be too powerful depending on the weapon, maybe a percentage of the damage?" - DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
Impact: To addition of the "I've fallen and I can't get up" mechanic you proposed, as long as the proc is active, damage is doubled on that enemy. ("great idea, though i'd probably love the effect to be applied to ground finishers exclusively, to emphasise a play more interesting than 'just wail on it with bullets'" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
Magnetic: New status effect: Attraction. Removes half base shields while active, magnetizes enemy, who gets pulled into another enemy within 20m. When they collide, both entities will be dealt 50% of the Magnetic proc's damage. ("20m is probably a bit extreme, unless its a very weak pull. alternatively, maybe a much shorter but super strong pull?" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

@Walkampf Suggests:
Impact: instead of building up to a knockdown, it builds up to opening the enemy to a finisher. The amount of finisher damage dealt scales with the impact damage weighting (70% impact damage would result in 100% damage dealt as finisher, 35% would equal 50% damage dealt as finisher, ect) ("excellent idea! certainly boosts the position of impact centric melee weapons, but may need some bonus effect to give better support to impact guns" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

 @Datam4ss Suggests:

Spoiler

1. IPS

• Puncture - On proc, pierces and spalls enemy armor, stripping base armor (like shattering impact) and causing some finisher damage (maybe 30% of base damage?) ("some credit to @Neightrix for also suggesting something similar" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
• Impact - On proc, knocks enemy back, interrupts enemy actions (allowing you to cancel Eximus abilities and heavy unit slams if you catch them with the proc, cancelling it). And yeah it should allow stunlocking, or perhaps stacking damage boosts to subsequent shots. ("actually interrupting enemy abilities should already be an effect of impact, lol" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

2. Base elements

• Cold - maybe a minor DoT in addition to the slow, in terms of cold damage. like hypothermia. Or perhaps an initial root that decreases over time as the enemy defrosts? ("or possibly a 'root them to the spot' feet freeze?" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

3. Combined elements

• Magnetic - bullet attractor effect for some duration in addition to damaging shields. Attracts enemy fire as well. ("might not want to take the spotlight away from mag's magnetize, but a solid idea none-the-less" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
• Radiation - seems ok, although perhaps weaken the affected to damage? ("yeah, it always bothered me that the enemies where almost totally ineffectual against each other, making the effect less 'kill each other' and more 'stop shooting me' like most crowd control" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
• Blast - not just an AoE impact. Make it do damage in the AoE. It's an explosion come on. ("some damage would be nice" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

4. Special

• Void - ignores armor, but not shields. Disables Eximus Auras on proc and straight up burns percentage HP/Shields.

 @FAZZWARFRAME Suggests:
impact - add a chance to disarm the enemy ("or build up to it instead of knockdown?" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
puncture - add punch through, as in shooting at an puncture proc'd enemy will have your bullet go through to hit another enemy behind, even if your weapon does not have punch through.

@Fallen_Echo Suggests:

Spoiler

Impact: Deals +50% damage to targets affected by crowd control effects., at 100% status chance has 10% chance to proc Bone shatter. Bone shatter decreases movement speed by 25% and causes a single slash proc.
Puncture: On proc decreases enemy resistances by 5% and increases enemy weaknesses by 5%. Stacks 3 times, at 100% status chance every shot what procs puncture has 10% chance to gain infinite punchtrought and every hit has 5% chance to proc impact.
Slash: At 100% status chance every shot has 10% chance to proc Heavy cuts. Heavy cuts deal 60% base damage for 3 sec as finisher damage (cannot be increased in lenght) and has 10% chance to proc puncture.

 

Heat: Each enemy has 50% chance to proc heat on an enemy within 1.5 meter on every tick. The secondary heat procs lose 10% damage on each spreading. At 100% status chance every heat proc has 5% chance to create an explosion in 2m range dealing 50% base damage.
Cold: At 100% status chance has 10% chance to completely freeze an enemy. Frozen enemies take +50% damage from impact, blast and puncture damage, freeze has maximum 4 sec duration.
Electric: At 100% status chance every electric proc has 20% chance to proc a combined element if a player shots at the target with any base element.
Toxin: Stacks and each new proc refreshes the duration of the proc. At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc Brain damage. Targets with brain damage suffer accuracy penalty and randomly stop action.

 

 Blast: At 100% status chance a blast proc has 5% chance to decrease enemy armor by 10 permanently.

 Corrosive At 100% status chance has 5% chance to create a small puddle of acid, dealing tick based damage every sec. Once the enemy leaves the puddle the tick stays active for 4 sec.

 Gas Now ticks gas and not toxin damage. Gas bypasses armor but not shields. At 100% status chance every gas cloud has 5% chance to turn into an unstable gas cloud. Shooting this cloud makes it explode dealing the shots damage in 4m range.

 Magnetic Now permanently decreases shields by 25%. At 100% status chance every magnetic proc has 5% chance to cause gun jamming and to make robotic enemies attack everybody permanently.

 Radiation At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc void anomalies. When an enemy gets anomaly procced he will be affected by a random elemental cloud with 100% proc chance what stays active for 5 second and follows the said enemy. (see examples at sorties of what i imagine here)

 Viral At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc Helmith infection. An enemy procced with Helmith infection grows infected layer on itself quickly and as long as its alive it will act as an ally of the Tenno. Only 1 target can be infected at any time to dispose unneeded allies press X on the target so Helmith can consume him.

("some excellent ideas that im not going to tackle individually, though i would like to see the bonus effect scale up quickly with status-chance that is over 100%" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

@BBaw Suggests:
b)  Give impact an additional single target damage proc,  like slash but direct damage instead,  make this proc effect health directly, bypassing armor and shields in the same way slash does. ("sort of like a concussion? i could dig that" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
c)  Give puncture the ability to remove armor in much the same way the Shattering Impact mod works.   Might need to remove that mod from the game afterwards. ("I'd keep Shattering Impact, but make the proc less powerful to prevent a machinegun stripping the armour in half a second" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

@TheBlueJelly Suggests:

Spoiler

If you're condensing into one post.... have a couple of ideas of mine.

-Impact: The more Impact procs on a target, the slower their stagger/knockdown recovery (-25% for 3s?). This would make a chain-Impact-proc weapon actually quite useful, as it would quickly stagger-lock foe(s) without being the DPS-eating nightmare of original 2.5, or being "like blast, but single target". Additionally, some number of concurrent impact procs should cause a target to be open to finishers (3?).

- Puncture: Deals an additional 17.5% of base damage as Finisher damage (like Slash's backloaded 35% over 6s, but frontloaded; effectively dealing 3.5 of the 7 slash ticks but immediately). Additionally, adjust the damage type matchup to give it 25-35% vs Alloy instead of 15%. This would greatly increase its base value against Grineer, and be a much-needed buff to Corpus for Corpus vs Grineer engagements, while still keeping Alloy as a "superior" armor against Puncture. Note that Warframes have Ferrite armor exclusively.

- Magnetic: Creates a fixed area (like a Gas proc) that propagates a percentage (say, 10%) of all damage inflicted to targets in the area to everyone in the area due to shrapnel. This would give it synergy with Gas, making MagnaGas a very desirable combination. Note that Warframes would be immune to this AoE damage effect, as our systems are easily able to compensate for the micro-shrapnel, but cannot fully shield our energy reserves. As such, direct magnet procs would still function as energy drain on Warframes, just without the additional shield drain. Damage values of Eidolon screams should be adjusted a little bit upwards to compensate for the reduced lethality of their Magnetic procs.

 

Additionally....
Shields should convert all physical (IPS) status procs into Impact procs so long as there is enough shield to absorb the entire hit. This would be a HUGE buff to shields, address one of the biggest complaints players have about shields (slash procs on Warframes ignore them), but wouldn't completely de-fang physical procs against shields (as stacking multiple impact procs would cause the target to be very CC-locked). This would also buff impact/cold/magnetic damage indirectly, as it will increase the value of anti-shield damage.

Damage reduction from armor should be hard-capped at 95% (1 in 20 damage allowed, achieved before damage matchups are considered at 5700), with the armor damage matchup effects also adjusting the hard-cap (ie, Slash vs Alloy, would cap at 97.5% (1 in 40) while Radiation vs Alloy would cap at 91.25% (roughly 1 in 11.4)) in addition to their current ignore/amp effects.

 

--

 

So what do you all think?
What do you like about my proposed changes?
What do you dislike about them?
Is there anything that jumps out as potentially OP, and what else can be improved?
Let us hear your own ideas for the damage types, if people seem to think they are pretty good, ill add them in the possible alternatives section! _{(yaay lets be civil please)}

Edited March 15, 2018 by DeckChairVonBananaCamel
added the word "current", in italics, for properity

[Sanxxieh]

Basically weakening all effects but making them AoE.

Also those Magnetic and Viral changes would be an indirect nerf to a few frames (since they base on those damages).

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

Cold: Procs stack, and depending on the numbers of procs, enemy is either slowed down or frozen completely."

Puncture: one-time finisher damage. (eg: If an attack does 100 damage and procs Puncture, the 100 damage will be done in Finisher) This allows for puncture to go with the theme of it supposedly "countering armor".

Impact: To addition of the "I've fallen and I can't get up" mechanic you proposed, as long as the proc is active, damage is doubled on that enemy.

Magnetic: New status effect: Attraction. Removes half base shields while active, magnetizes enemy, who gets pulled into another enemy within 20m. When they collide, both entities will be dealt 50% of the Magnetic proc's damage.

I think Corrosive, Gas, and Viral are fine as they are, but hopefully you'll enjoy my suggestions.

@DeckChairVonBananaCamel

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

1 minute ago, Sanxxieh said:

Basically weakening all effects but making them AoE.

Also those Magnetic and Viral changes would be an indirect nerf to a few frames (since they base on those damages).

well all the combined elemental effects, anyway.

And you make a good point about those magnetic and viral abilities, maybe they could have special conditions allowing them to immediately do the 75% (magnetic) and 50% (viral) to make them more viable

[LightningsVengance]

replace all the damage and status with slash

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

1 minute ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

Cold: Procs stack, and depending on the numbers of procs, enemy is either slowed down or frozen completely."

Puncture: one-time finisher damage. (eg: If an attack does 100 damage and procs Puncture, the 100 damage will be done in Finisher) This allows for puncture to go with the theme of it supposedly "countering armor".

Impact: To addition of the "I've fallen and I can't get up" mechanic you proposed, as long as the proc is active, damage is doubled on that enemy.

Magnetic: New status effect: Attraction. Removes half base shields while active, magnetizes enemy, who gets pulled into another enemy within 20m. When they collide, both entities will be dealt 50% of the Magnetic proc's damage.

I think Corrosive, Gas, and Viral are fine as they are, but hopefully you'll enjoy my suggestions.

@DeckChairVonBananaCamel

some great suggestions! though i fear that making puncture straight up bypass armour when procced may see it become the new slash.
Also, could the bonus damage for impact be confined to ground finishers? makes it a bit more of a lovely one-two punch as opposed to just wailing on a target with a gun

either way ill add your suggestions to the alternatives and make notes on @Sanxxieh's points

also i forgot a possible alternative to puncture i myself was going to add!

[Walkampf]

Impact:

Crappy idea, nobody likes Blasts knockdown, since it makes it incredibly hard to shoot heads.

Puncture:

OP, and why have it share the the same effect with corrosive. It defeats the purpose of having multiple damagetypes to begin with.

Just make everything slashdamage. *duh*

Toxic:

Why should a toxin block jetpacks??? also it whould be so specific, that it has hardly any effect on the gameplay. Also, it already gives Grineer and Infested 'something to think about', since they get DoTs.

All Combi elements:

Yeah, make everything AoE, so nobody has to aim anymore. GREAT!!!!

P.S.

Corrosive:

After the recent weapon tweaks Corrosive works great. Why scew it over now?

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

5 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Impact:

Crappy idea, nobody likes Blasts knockdown, since it makes it incredibly hard to shoot heads.

what about, instead of the knockdown that it builds up to, it builds up to a special stun that opens to finishers? Please tell me, what would YOU like to see impact do, that would be different from slash, but equally as desirable? (i mean no salt by that, im legit curious about your thoughts on the game)

5 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Puncture:

OP, and why have it share the the same effect with corrosive. It defeats the purpose of having multiple damagetypes to begin with.

Just make everything slashdamage. *duh*

it would theoretically only be just as powerful as the current corrosion, the idea is to make puncture as desirable as slash and as far as i know there are 2 ways players combat armour.
1. bypass it with slash.
2. destroy it with armour reduction.
Impact, Puncture and Slash all sit in the same group of damage types, so they should all be considered equal (but still different)

5 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Toxic:

Why should a toxin block jetpacks??? also it whould be so specific, that it has hardly any effect on the gameplay. Also, it already gives Grineer and Infested 'something to think about', since they get DoTs.

Well the idea wouldnt be blocking the jetpacks, per se. But rather making the enemy delirious to have the cognitive/physical capability of using advanced stuff (you ever seen someone who has the flu real bad?)

(actually, that being said, it may be interesting to consider the swapping the effects of toxin and radiation. toxin makes them hallucinate and shoot their friends, radiation stuffs up some of their tech... hmm...)

16 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

All Combi elements:

Yeah, make everything AoE, so nobody has to aim anymore. GREAT!!!!

well the idea is that the combi elements would be weak, but more "crowd pleasy" where the IPS damages would be very powerful but designed to single out targets

23 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Corrosive:

After the recent weapon tweaks Corrosive works great. Why scew it over now?

well depending on the situation, it could be considered a buff to corrosive. against single targets it would be worse off. but against multiple it would be better off as once you finish killing the first enemy, the next enemy you focus on would already be missing most, if not all, of its armour.
Otherwise though, how would you make all of the combi-elements equal?

[Walkampf]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb DeckChairVonBananaCamel:

what about, instead of the knockdown that it builds up to, it builds up to a special stun that opens to finishers? Please tell me, what would YOU like to see impact do, that would be different from slash, but equally as desirable? (i mean no salt by that, im legit curious about your thoughts on the game)

Coincidently, yes, exacly that.

DE was thinking about having a proccs behaviour being changed by the IPS destribution.

The higher the % of the complete IPS the more damage deals the slash procc and the bigger the damage reduction caused by puncture.

Impact should, in my opinion, cause a stagger, just like now and open up enemies to finishers (basically the Justice procc)

However, the finisher should feature a multiplier to not get out of hand. for example, an IPS spread with for example 70% Impact damage whould cause the full 100% finisher damage formula.

When you get lower than 70% impact in your IPS spread, then the finisher damage should gradually decrease. 

For example, a hammer like the Jat Kittag whould then be great for a finisher build.

A Galantine Prime however could theoretically lead to a finisher proc as well, but it whould be weaker, since it whould already feature much stronger slash proccs to deal with armor.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

7 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Coincidently, yes, exacly that.

DE was thinking about having a proccs behaviour being changed by the IPS destribution.

The higher the % of the complete IPS the more damage deals the slash procc and the bigger the damage reduction caused by puncture.

Impact should, in my opinion, cause a stagger, just like now and open up enemies to finishers (basically the Justice procc)

However, the finisher should feature a multiplier to not get out of hand. for example, an IPS spread with for example 70% Impact damage whould cause the full 100% finisher damage formula.

When you get lower than 70% impact in your IPS spread, then the finisher damage should gradually decrease. 

For example, a hammer like the Jat Kittag whould then be great for a finisher build.

A Galantine Prime however could theoretically lead to a finisher proc as well, but it whould be weaker, since it whould already feature much stronger slash proccs to deal with armor.

see i like this, this is good discussion.

when DE announced that they planned to have the procs scale with the damage types spread. i just thought "meh it probably wont change anything, most of the slash weapons are mostly weighted toward slash anyway"
And the damage output reduction dealt by puncture is pretty rubbish anyway, the only way i could see it being viable at high levels would be to have it stack.
But even then, at super high levels it seems to be more of a case of "if you are taking damage, you are doing it wrong" so single target damage reduction seemed to be rather weak.

Either way, im adding your suggestion to the alt list

[Neightrix]

Puncture
I like the idea of the proc creating weak points, but I wouldn't make the proc also work like corrosive. Instead, I would have puncture damage carry a % of the weapon's damage through armor. This way, weapons like Snipertron and other slow firing weapons aren't left out to dry from needing a specific proc just to be good against armor. The % would have to be tested, though - maybe 30%?

Heat
For Heat, it would be nice if the proc refreshed enemy panic, and procs could stack as toxin does.

Magnetic
Additionally, I would say make the proc cause heavy units lose their ability to do a ground slam, Bursa lose their CC ground slam, and eximus lose their aura and can do longer unleash their fire wave attacks.

I wouldn't change any of the other combined elements, especially not corrosive.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Neightrix

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

4 minutes ago, Neightrix said:

Puncture
I like the idea of the proc creating weak points, but I wouldn't make the proc also work like corrosive. Instead, I would have puncture damage carry a % of the weapon's damage through armor. This way, weapons like Snipertron and other slow firing weapons aren't left out to dry from needing a specific proc just to be good against armor. The % would have to be tested, though - maybe 30%?

i see a few people suggest this and my only problem is that it may just become "the new slash" having a armour bypassing effect is always dangerous, maybe a halfway mark between damaging armour and bypassing it would be a good comprimise?

6 minutes ago, Neightrix said:

Heat
For Heat, it would be nice if the proc refreshed enemy panic, and procs could stack as toxin does.

i think we would have to choose an either/or in this situation. having a nearly perfect CC combined with stacking damage would likely make toxin completely irrelevant (except against shields, i guess).
Maybe instead of stacking damage, stacking procs could cause small novas that spread the panic? hmm... that might be too close to the aoe CC of blast...
nah, im gonna say i prefer it that the fire gets the refreshing panic, and the toxin can keep its stacking damage, gives them each their own pros and cons.

15 minutes ago, Neightrix said:

Magnetic
Additionally, I would say make the proc cause heavy units lose their ability to do a ground slam, Bursa lose their CC ground slam, and eximus lose their aura and can do longer unleash their fire wave attacks.

hmm, makes sense (given magnetic stuffs our abilities), in that scenario, what alternate effect would you suggest toxin has?

[Guest]

I have a few very random ideas:

1. IPS

• Slash - unchanged. It works well as of now.
• Puncture - On proc, pierces and spalls enemy armor, stripping base armor (like shattering impact) and causing some finisher damage (maybe 30% of base damage?)
• Impact - On proc, knocks enemy back, interrupts enemy actions (allowing you to cancel Eximus abilities and heavy unit slams if you catch them with the proc, cancelling it). And yeah it should allow stunlocking, or perhaps stacking damage boosts to subsequent shots.

2. Base elements

• Heat - make it spread and cause panic to multiple enemies. I agree with this one.
• Cold - maybe a minor DoT in addition to the slow, in terms of cold damage. like hypothermia. Or perhaps an initial root that decreases over time as the enemy defrosts?
• Toxin - doesn't really need changes. It's fine as it is.
• Electric - Is fine as it is. AoE damage and stun is ok

3. Combined elements

• Magnetic - bullet attractor effect for some duration in addition to damaging shields. Attracts enemy fire as well.
• Corrosive - doesn't really need a change, but perhaps it can strip armor over time (like how trinity's EV works on health), stacking. If the enemy has no armor left it instead corrodes flesh doing DoT. But actually it's OK and I wouldn't like to change it.
• Gas - doesn't really need a change IMO.
• Radiation - seems ok, although perhaps weaken the affected to damage?
• Blast - not just an AoE impact. Make it do damage in the AoE. It's an explosion come on.
• Viral - doesn't need changes TBH, except that enemies should not get all their health back after the effect ends, but over time after the effect ends, like how you need time to recover, and how repeated infections will kill.

4. Special

• Finisher - unchanged
• Void - ignores armor, but not shields. Disables Eximus Auras on proc and straight up burns percentage HP/Shields.

[Neightrix]

1 hour ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

i see a few people suggest this and my only problem is that it may just become "the new slash" having a armour bypassing effect is always dangerous, maybe a halfway mark between damaging armour and bypassing it would be a good comprimise?

Yes, that's why you would adjust the percentage from testing.

I don't see anything wrong with toxin. Sure, gas is better if you have status chance but I don't think that's a problem per say

Edited March 7, 2018 by Neightrix

[FAZZWARFRAME]

impact - add a chance to disarm the enemy

puncture - add punch through, as in shooting at an puncture proc'd enemy will have your bullet go through to hit another enemy behind, even if your weapon does not have punch through.

[peterc3]

5 hours ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

Slash: (unchanged) 

Into the trash it goes.

Not to be overly harsh, but this is not how this will go.

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

firstly: excuse me if none of this makes much sense, or if it is a terrible idea. it is very late here at the moment and i had the idea driving home in my car.

OK, so

With the upcoming damage 2.5/khora update delayed due to backlash over proposed changes to the IPS damage system, it's probably high time we had some civil discussion on the state of status procs.
So, at the moment the current statuses look like this:
Impact:     Staggers                                   | Heat:     Stun/DoT                     | Blast:        AoE Knockdown
Puncture: Reduced damage output          | Cold:     Slow                             | Corrosive: Armour reduction
Slash:      Armour/shield ignoring DoT      | Electric: Chain attack/Stun        | Gas:         Toxin AoE
                                                                  | Toxin:     Shield ignoring DoT    | Magnetic:  Reduce Max Shields
                                                                                                                      | Radiation: Reduced accuracy/friendly fire
                                                                                                                      | Viral:         Reduced max health

And this is all well and dandy except for the fact that Slash completely obliterates puncture and impact in terms of viability.

Now, i personally believe that the damage types on the left should be very powerful, single-target procs, and that the procs on the right should be less powerful but hit multiple targets. Slash procs are already very powerful and single target so we dont really have to change them.

My proposed changes are as such (please read them before commenting)

IPS

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Impact: Same as the changes proposed by the initial 2.5 changes, where multiple procs on the one target progresses from knockback to stun to knockdown. but no ragdolling of into the sunset like a team rocket impersonator! Instead, landing extra procs on a downed opponent prevents them from getting up, allowing you to use impact to stunlock the crap out of a single target.
Puncture: Functionally identical to the current corrosive proc, where it strips away armour, but with the added benefit of winding unarmoured foes, causing their accuracy to greatly suffer (for versatility) ("forgot to mention the possible effect of dealing bonus damage to shields on proc, to not limit it to much to grineer" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
Slash: (unchanged) 

Single Elements

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Heat: Added benefit that the enemies that are on fire deal damage tics to enemies that are in close proximity (similar to the current gas proc), allowing you to get a real furnace going on a crowd of enemies.
Cold: (Can't think of any changes, if even necessary)
Electric: (unchanged)
Toxin: It already bypasses shields, so lets give it something for the grineer/infested to think about; prevents abilities like jetpacks and swarm/tar moa spit

Combi Elements

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Blast: (unchanged)
Corrosive: Significantly weaker, but now AoE splash of corrosive acid, so it takes longer to chew through armour, but does it to multiple enemies.
Gas: Wider area, not as strong
Magnetic: effect reduced from 75% to 50%, but with the benefit of dealing damage to nearby enemy shields as well
Radiation: (already technically affects multiple targets, so unchanged)
Viral: reduces max health by only 5% BUT it can stack up to 50% AND the virus leaps to extra targets after a short delay; first to 2 extra targets, then those 2 to leap 2 more each so singular virus proc can affect a maximum of 7 targets

Possible alternatives provided by you guys!

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@(PS4)LeBlingKing69 Suggests:
Cold: Procs stack, and depending on the numbers of procs, enemy is either slowed down or frozen completely. ("i like this! though it might take the spotlight away from frost" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
Puncture: one-time finisher damage. (eg: If an attack does 100 damage and procs Puncture, the 100 damage will be done in Finisher) This allows for puncture to go with the theme of it supposedly "countering armor". ("might be too powerful depending on the weapon, maybe a percentage of the damage?" - DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
Impact: To addition of the "I've fallen and I can't get up" mechanic you proposed, as long as the proc is active, damage is doubled on that enemy. ("great idea, though i'd probably love the effect to be applied to ground finishers exclusively, to emphasise a play more interesting than 'just wail on it with bullets'" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)
Magnetic: New status effect: Attraction. Removes half base shields while active, magnetizes enemy, who gets pulled into another enemy within 20m. When they collide, both entities will be dealt 50% of the Magnetic proc's damage. ("20m is probably a bit extreme, unless its a very weak pull. alternatively, maybe a much shorter but super strong pull?" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

@Walkampf Suggests:
Impact: instead of building up to a knockdown, it builds up to opening the enemy to a finisher. The amount of finisher damage dealt scales with the impact damage weighting (70% impact damage would result in 100% damage dealt as finisher, 35% would equal 50% damage dealt as finisher, ect) ("excellent idea! certainly boosts the position of impact centric melee weapons, but may need some bonus effect to give better support to impact guns" -DeckChairVonBananaCamel)

So what do you all think?
What do you like about my proposed changes?
What do you dislike about them?
Is there anything that jumps out as potentially OP, and what else can be improved?
Let us hear your own ideas for the damage types, if people seem to think they are pretty good, ill add them in the possible alternatives section! _{(yaay lets be civil please)}

Reworked them a bit and added new suggestions. Some of them are reworded and each of them got a new bonus effect. The 100% status chance bonuses are avaible at lower status too they are increasing from 0% to their mentioned value. For example the impact bonus at 10% status chance has 1% chance to proc.

 

Impact: Deals +50% damage to targets affected by crowd control effects., at 100% status chance has 10% chance to proc Bone shatter. Bone shatter decreases movement speed by 25% and causes a single slash proc.
Puncture: On proc decreases enemy resistances by 5% and increases enemy weaknesses by 5%. Stacks 3 times, at 100% status chance every shot what procs puncture has 10% chance to gain infinite punchtrought and every hit has 5% chance to proc impact.
Slash: At 100% status chance every shot has 10% chance to proc Heavy cuts. Heavy cuts deal 60% base damage for 3 sec as finisher damage (cannot be increased in lenght) and has 10% chance to proc puncture.

 

Heat: Each enemy has 50% chance to proc heat on an enemy within 1.5 meter on every tick. The secondary heat procs lose 10% damage on each spreading. At 100% status chance every heat proc has 5% chance to create an explosion in 2m range dealing 50% base damage.
Cold: At 100% status chance has 10% chance to completely freeze an enemy. Frozen enemies take +50% damage from impact, blast and puncture damage, freeze has maximum 4 sec duration.
Electric: At 100% status chance every electric proc has 20% chance to proc a combined element if a player shots at the target with any base element.
Toxin: Stacks and each new proc refreshes the duration of the proc. At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc Brain damage. Targets with brain damage suffer accuracy penalty and randomly stop action.

 

 Blast: At 100% status chance a blast proc has 5% chance to decrease enemy armor by 10 permanently.

 Corrosive At 100% status chance has 5% chance to create a small puddle of acid, dealing tick based damage every sec. Once the enemy leaves the puddle the tick stays active for 4 sec.

 Gas Now ticks gas and not toxin damage. Gas bypasses armor but not shields. At 100% status chance every gas cloud has 5% chance to turn into an unstable gas cloud. Shooting this cloud makes it explode dealing the shots damage in 4m range.

 Magnetic Now permanently decreases shields by 25%. At 100% status chance every magnetic proc has 5% chance to cause gun jamming and to make robotic enemies attack everybody permanently.

 Radiation At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc void anomalies. When an enemy gets anomaly procced he will be affected by a random elemental cloud with 100% proc chance what stays active for 5 second and follows the said enemy. (see examples at sorties of what i imagine here)

 Viral At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc Helmith infection. An enemy procced with Helmith infection grows infected layer on itself quickly and as long as its alive it will act as an ally of the Tenno. Only 1 target can be infected at any time to dispose unneeded allies press X on the target so Helmith can consume him.

[BBaw]

Physical damage is unbalanced.  As the main damage type on the majority of the weapons in warframe this needs to be balanced among itself before elemental effects should be looked at, in my opinion.  The reasoning behind this is you would want to avoid a possible cascading effect of imbalance going from physical > elemental > combined and their associated relationships.  Something you might inadvertently get by trying to change everything at once, which would force them to wipe the slate clean again.  I would love to be able to say "Well that would never happen!"  or "We can always see this coming!" but due to the shear number of different effects (13 damage types) and their possible combinations I would say thats a lotta wishful thinking.

So we need a physical balance first.

So what is making physical damage unbalanced.. Quite simply, its not the amount of damage so much as it is the way we play the game.  We can get away with ignoring the effects of Impact and Puncture and focusing on Slash damage because of the type of content we are faced with. There is no penalty for gravitating towards more damage, and slash simply does more damage.

Keeping that in mind there is only one way to balance the 3 physical damage types, they all have to do equal damage.   Either slash gets nerfed down to the same damage as impact and puncture or impact and puncture are brought up to speed on their damage potential.   The way the game is designed right now and with how everyone plays it,  that is the only answer.  If there was a need for Impact CC or puncture damage reduction the case would be different but with the current way we play the game there is literally no need for it whatsoever.  

My answer is pretty simple and while it will have implications on game play I believe it will be the easiest way to go about it without throwing the entire community into a twit.

a)  Leave slash damage alone, otherwise face the wrath of all the slash loving people in the world and listen them talk about how you broke their game.

b)  Give impact an additional single target damage proc,  like slash but direct damage instead,  make this proc effect health directly, bypassing armor and shields in the same way slash does.

c)  Give puncture the ability to remove armor in much the same way the Shattering Impact mod works.   Might need to remove that mod from the game afterwards.

Now everything is more closely balanced to the completely overpowered nature of slash damage.

My suggestions are, in my mind, completely broken and if I had any sense I wouldn't add them to the game I would simply nerf slash damage to where it needs to be (more akin to a toxin damage proc affected by armor) and then tackle the issues of elemental damage types, because that would be the most sensible thing to do.  I am fairly certain that will not be the case, though.   Too much hype surrounding the words "Damage 2.5"  is gonna put the fear of backlash into the decision making process and I'm afraid something ridiculous is going to be the result, leaving a little bit of sensible adjustment just kinda dangling in the wind.  

To be perfectly honest also... I could simply care less if they adjusted it at all.  I would just like to see them focus on bringing out some higher ranged content to take advantage of the massive amount of damage we can already do even without slash being involved.  If it wasn't for the fact that someone decided Khora was gonna be the master of the 3 physical damage types,  that might just very well be the case.   In that regard I would simply just make Khora the master of Slash / Corrosive / and Radiation instead.  

 

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

WOAH! thats a lot more replies than i was expecting!  Please bear with me whilst i work through them all! (ill put each person's quote in spoilers so as to not take up too much room)

@Datam4ss 

Spoiler

8 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

I have a few very random ideas:

1. IPS

• Slash - unchanged. It works well as of now.
• Puncture - On proc, pierces and spalls enemy armor, stripping base armor (like shattering impact) and causing some finisher damage (maybe 30% of base damage?)
• Impact - On proc, knocks enemy back, interrupts enemy actions (allowing you to cancel Eximus abilities and heavy unit slams if you catch them with the proc, cancelling it). And yeah it should allow stunlocking, or perhaps stacking damage boosts to subsequent shots.

2. Base elements

• Heat - make it spread and cause panic to multiple enemies. I agree with this one.
• Cold - maybe a minor DoT in addition to the slow, in terms of cold damage. like hypothermia. Or perhaps an initial root that decreases over time as the enemy defrosts?
• Toxin - doesn't really need changes. It's fine as it is.
• Electric - Is fine as it is. AoE damage and stun is ok

3. Combined elements

• Magnetic - bullet attractor effect for some duration in addition to damaging shields. Attracts enemy fire as well.
• Corrosive - doesn't really need a change, but perhaps it can strip armor over time (like how trinity's EV works on health), stacking. If the enemy has no armor left it instead corrodes flesh doing DoT. But actually it's OK and I wouldn't like to change it.
• Gas - doesn't really need a change IMO.
• Radiation - seems ok, although perhaps weaken the affected to damage?
• Blast - not just an AoE impact. Make it do damage in the AoE. It's an explosion come on.
• Viral - doesn't need changes TBH, except that enemies should not get all their health back after the effect ends, but over time after the effect ends, like how you need time to recover, and how repeated infections will kill.

4. Special

• Finisher - unchanged
• Void - ignores armor, but not shields. Disables Eximus Auras on proc and straight up burns percentage HP/Shields.

Puncture- yeah @Neightrix and i where discussing it earlier, with some careful oversight from DE and some (if necessary) changes to the percentages, it could work out to be "equal but different" to slash
Impact- I must say, the fact that certain abilities aren't interrupted by knockdown is a bit silly in my book; a heavy gunner doing a radial slam whilst sprawled out on the floor is comical, at best.
Cold- hmm, we'd probably want to avoid having too many DoT effects, maybe instead repeated cold procs freeze their feet to the ground? to prevent them from moving but would not prevent ranged attacks would avoid taking the fame away from frost's ability to totally freeze enemies whilst still adding something more than just "slow-em-down" (though that is already pretty cool! haha, ba-dum-tss!)
Magnetic- hmm, not bad, though we wouldnt want to take too much away from mag (lord knows she needs all she can get)
Radiation- yeah, or just weaken them to each others damage, because as it stands its less "hey cool the enemies are fighting each other" and more "hey cool the enemies are not fighting me" which is basically just every crowd control.
Blast- yeah, true
Void- i actually totally forgot this one! Status effects aside, id just love to see a percentage of the damage dealt ignore shields/armour when landing headshots, after all, the void has some pretty mind-crushing effects lore-wise, why not make that a part of gameplay?

 

@FAZZWARFRAME

Spoiler

6 hours ago, FAZZWARFRAME said:

impact - add a chance to disarm the enemy

puncture - add punch through, as in shooting at an puncture proc'd enemy will have your bullet go through to hit another enemy behind, even if your weapon does not have punch through.

Impact- or have the buildup that DE suggested end in disarming instead of/as well as knockdown?
Puncture- excellent idea on its own!

 

@peterc3

Spoiler

5 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Into the trash it goes.

Not to be overly harsh, but this is not how this will go.

oh cmon! powerful, armour ignoring DoT will always be useful, my aim is to atleast let people go "hmm, today i might bring a puncture centric status weapon" and have it not be a terrible idea.
I mean, Slash damage's raw power is so great that it is considered by many to be the only viable IPS damage type, and that shouldn't be the case, should it?

 

@Fallen_Echo

Spoiler

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Reworked them a bit and added new suggestions. Some of them are reworded and each of them got a new bonus effect. The 100% status chance bonuses are avaible at lower status too they are increasing from 0% to their mentioned value. For example the impact bonus at 10% status chance has 1% chance to proc.

 

Impact: Deals +50% damage to targets affected by crowd control effects., at 100% status chance has 10% chance to proc Bone shatter. Bone shatter decreases movement speed by 25% and causes a single slash proc.
Puncture: On proc decreases enemy resistances by 5% and increases enemy weaknesses by 5%. Stacks 3 times, at 100% status chance every shot what procs puncture has 10% chance to gain infinite punchtrought and every hit has 5% chance to proc impact.
Slash: At 100% status chance every shot has 10% chance to proc Heavy cuts. Heavy cuts deal 60% base damage for 3 sec as finisher damage (cannot be increased in lenght) and has 10% chance to proc puncture.

 

Heat: Each enemy has 50% chance to proc heat on an enemy within 1.5 meter on every tick. The secondary heat procs lose 10% damage on each spreading. At 100% status chance every heat proc has 5% chance to create an explosion in 2m range dealing 50% base damage.
Cold: At 100% status chance has 10% chance to completely freeze an enemy. Frozen enemies take +50% damage from impact, blast and puncture damage, freeze has maximum 4 sec duration.
Electric: At 100% status chance every electric proc has 20% chance to proc a combined element if a player shots at the target with any base element.
Toxin: Stacks and each new proc refreshes the duration of the proc. At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc Brain damage. Targets with brain damage suffer accuracy penalty and randomly stop action.

 

 Blast: At 100% status chance a blast proc has 5% chance to decrease enemy armor by 10 permanently.

 Corrosive At 100% status chance has 5% chance to create a small puddle of acid, dealing tick based damage every sec. Once the enemy leaves the puddle the tick stays active for 4 sec.

 Gas Now ticks gas and not toxin damage. Gas bypasses armor but not shields. At 100% status chance every gas cloud has 5% chance to turn into an unstable gas cloud. Shooting this cloud makes it explode dealing the shots damage in 4m range.

 Magnetic Now permanently decreases shields by 25%. At 100% status chance every magnetic proc has 5% chance to cause gun jamming and to make robotic enemies attack everybody permanently.

 Radiation At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc void anomalies. When an enemy gets anomaly procced he will be affected by a random elemental cloud with 100% proc chance what stays active for 5 second and follows the said enemy. (see examples at sorties of what i imagine here)

 Viral At 100% status chance has 5% chance to proc Helmith infection. An enemy procced with Helmith infection grows infected layer on itself quickly and as long as its alive it will act as an ally of the Tenno. Only 1 target can be infected at any time to dispose unneeded allies press X on the target so Helmith can consume him.

this is a great wall of excellent ideas, good job.
maybe the little bonus effects could gain enhanced benefits from status chance over 100% (10% at 100%, 15% at 105%, 20% at 110% ect)?
Though i do fear that slash would still be the go-to for high level content, unless your opponent has a weakness to puncture that could be exploited with its proc

 

@BBaw

Spoiler

2 hours ago, BBaw said:

Physical damage is unbalanced.  As the main damage type on the majority of the weapons in warframe this needs to be balanced among itself before elemental effects should be looked at, in my opinion.  The reasoning behind this is you would want to avoid a possible cascading effect of imbalance going from physical > elemental > combined and their associated relationships.  Something you might inadvertently get by trying to change everything at once, which would force them to wipe the slate clean again.  I would love to be able to say "Well that would never happen!"  or "We can always see this coming!" but due to the shear number of different effects (13 damage types) and their possible combinations I would say thats a lotta wishful thinking.

So we need a physical balance first.

So what is making physical damage unbalanced.. Quite simply, its not the amount of damage so much as it is the way we play the game.  We can get away with ignoring the effects of Impact and Puncture and focusing on Slash damage because of the type of content we are faced with. There is no penalty for gravitating towards more damage, and slash simply does more damage.

Keeping that in mind there is only one way to balance the 3 physical damage types, they all have to do equal damage.   Either slash gets nerfed down to the same damage as impact and puncture or impact and puncture are brought up to speed on their damage potential.   The way the game is designed right now and with how everyone plays it,  that is the only answer.  If there was a need for Impact CC or puncture damage reduction the case would be different but with the current way we play the game there is literally no need for it whatsoever.  

My answer is pretty simple and while it will have implications on game play I believe it will be the easiest way to go about it without throwing the entire community into a twit.

a)  Leave slash damage alone, otherwise face the wrath of all the slash loving people in the world and listen them talk about how you broke their game.

b)  Give impact an additional single target damage proc,  like slash but direct damage instead,  make this proc effect health directly, bypassing armor and shields in the same way slash does.

c)  Give puncture the ability to remove armor in much the same way the Shattering Impact mod works.   Might need to remove that mod from the game afterwards.

Now everything is more closely balanced to the completely overpowered nature of slash damage.

My suggestions are, in my mind, completely broken and if I had any sense I wouldn't add them to the game I would simply nerf slash damage to where it needs to be (more akin to a toxin damage proc affected by armor) and then tackle the issues of elemental damage types, because that would be the most sensible thing to do.  I am fairly certain that will not be the case, though.   Too much hype surrounding the words "Damage 2.5"  is gonna put the fear of backlash into the decision making process and I'm afraid something ridiculous is going to be the result, leaving a little bit of sensible adjustment just kinda dangling in the wind.  

To be perfectly honest also... I could simply care less if they adjusted it at all.  I would just like to see them focus on bringing out some higher ranged content to take advantage of the massive amount of damage we can already do even without slash being involved.  If it wasn't for the fact that someone decided Khora was gonna be the master of the 3 physical damage types,  that might just very well be the case.   In that regard I would simply just make Khora the master of Slash / Corrosive / and Radiation instead.  

 

I, personally, am ok with bumping impact and puncture up to the level of slash, but something would have to be done with the 4x IPS proc weighting (maybe reduce it to 2x?)
Otherwise some nifty ideas here!

im going to add these ideas to the altbox!

[Guest]

The 4 times IPS weighting has to go. As much as I love the crazy amounts of slash procs coming from my Astilla and Tigris Prime, they aren't stripping armor as fast as I like them to.

2 times is more reasonable but I rather have normalisation. Isn't it weird when a majority radiation weapon like the Cycron , or a high viral weapon like plague zaws are not doing a lot of what they are meant to do?

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

38 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

The 4 times IPS weighting has to go. As much as I love the crazy amounts of slash procs coming from my Astilla and Tigris Prime, they aren't stripping armor as fast as I like them to.

2 times is more reasonable but I rather have normalisation. Isn't it weird when a majority radiation weapon like the Cycron , or a high viral weapon like plague zaws are not doing a lot of what they are meant to do?

yeah the plague zaws are a problem, but thankfully with a beam weapon like the cycron, thanks to the status changes on beam weapons, the status chance can be boosted high enough that 1-off statuses like radiation and viral still happen often enough to be of use

[BBaw]

33 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

The 4 times IPS weighting has to go. As much as I love the crazy amounts of slash procs coming from my Astilla and Tigris Prime, they aren't stripping armor as fast as I like them to.

2 times is more reasonable but I rather have normalisation. Isn't it weird when a majority radiation weapon like the Cycron , or a high viral weapon like plague zaws are not doing a lot of what they are meant to do?

Well the good thing about the viral is it only has to proc once to be effective and since a good status weapon hits many times and quickly then the chance to get a viral proc is pretty decent.  So its working on zaws to be fair.  Its working on mine anyway :P

I also understand that 4x multiplier to physical, its trying to compensate for the fact that elemental is generally calculated as a combination of all the physical damage (the typical base damage on a weapon)  So elemental is generally going to start out at a higher value on your weapon  than any particular physical type.  So, to even it out, they add a multiplier to each physical damage type to boost the proc chance, so physical damage doesn't get left in the dust.   I wouldn't be apposed to seeing it dropped down to 3 or 2, though.  Unfortunately that won't change the way the game is played a whole lot, it'll just boost elemental proc chances a bit.  In a min/max kinda way it'll make a difference and for a few select weapons it will make a difference buuuut overall, naah I'ma still hit stuff and watch it die fairly easily and pretty much the same way.  I might swap a mod to boost a stat once in a while.  The effects, if any where noticeable at all, would probably only be noticeable on a case by case basis per weapon, and probably only on a parsed spreadsheet of some min/maxers catalogue.

Its not a horrible idea, though!  I wouldn't complain too much if it came out under QoL changes at any point.  But its just kinda shuffling status chance around and not really changing the severity of what slash can do.  A 90% slash weapon is still gonna murda murda murda some stuff.  Sorry if this got long winded I kinda does that :<

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

1 hour ago, BBaw said:

Well the good thing about the viral is it only has to proc once to be effective and since a good status weapon hits many times and quickly then the chance to get a viral proc is pretty decent.  So its working on zaws to be fair.  Its working on mine anyway :P

I also understand that 4x multiplier to physical, its trying to compensate for the fact that elemental is generally calculated as a combination of all the physical damage (the typical base damage on a weapon)  So elemental is generally going to start out at a higher value on your weapon  than any particular physical type.  So, to even it out, they add a multiplier to each physical damage type to boost the proc chance, so physical damage doesn't get left in the dust.   I wouldn't be apposed to seeing it dropped down to 3 or 2, though.  Unfortunately that won't change the way the game is played a whole lot, it'll just boost elemental proc chances a bit.  In a min/max kinda way it'll make a difference and for a few select weapons it will make a difference buuuut overall, naah I'ma still hit stuff and watch it die fairly easily and pretty much the same way.  I might swap a mod to boost a stat once in a while.  The effects, if any where noticeable at all, would probably only be noticeable on a case by case basis per weapon, and probably only on a parsed spreadsheet of some min/maxers catalogue.

Its not a horrible idea, though!  I wouldn't complain too much if it came out under QoL changes at any point.  But its just kinda shuffling status chance around and not really changing the severity of what slash can do.  A 90% slash weapon is still gonna murda murda murda some stuff.  Sorry if this got long winded I kinda does that :<

id be perfectly happy to see it drop to 2x, but something else id like to see change is the 30% IPS mods get changed to be like the 60/60 elemental mods to allow a small boost to status chance for those who want to focus on the new IPS procs

[BBaw]

2 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

id be perfectly happy to see it drop to 2x, but something else id like to see change is the 30% IPS mods get changed to be like the 60/60 elemental mods to allow a small boost to status chance for those who want to focus on the new IPS procs

Yea that would be effectively reverting what you just changed in the first part there :P  I completely understand the reasoning, though.  Also there is a slight issue with those mods being of the common variety.  They've sorta trended in what this means,  it wouldn't have the same stat values as an uncommon or rare. 

Like I said I completely understand what you're saying and what the fellow above was saying but, when you put it all together you're basically doing this...

Lowering one thing, and raising another thing, so you can raise another thing to basically put you in almost exactly the same spot.  Its like giving someone directions and telling  them to make 4 left turns.  So all that work to get back to point A.   I'd just leave them alone and tell them to go straight at that point :P

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Puncture shouldn't strip armor. Instead it should proc like gas but damage enemies through armor unlike toxic procs and do extra dmg to armored enemies. As a downside it cannot proc through shields.