Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[Pyus]

1 hour ago, rune_me said:

Again with this. Why should he stop? 

Again, I disagree with him, but why on earth should he stop? He is perfectly allowed to post his opinions here. If he feels that limiting how you play the game makes the game better, he is perfectly allowed to try and influence DE to limit the way you play the game. Your way of playing the game is not important to him, me or anyone other than you.

I don't want maiming strike nerfed, because it's part of my playstyle. But unlike most people posting in this thread, I'm not so arrogant as to assume that my playstyle is more important than other peoples opinions.

Because crying for nerfs hurts the game more than it helps it. That's why he should stop. It's a race to the bottom. There will always be something that is widely accepted and used by a good chunk of the player base if we always nerf the top dps builds into the ground you get "reworks" like ember that made her next to useless. He is directly attacking a play style that many people use because he claims that it has an negative impact on his game play, however my point still stands if the mission objective is met then why does it matter if he did not do top dps? 

It's part of this whole culture that views everything that is non-conforming as Toxic, I hate to say it but players need to get good or enjoy swimming in the ocean of mediocre play styles. 

[rune_me]

4 minutes ago, Pyus said:

Because crying for nerfs hurts the game more than it helps it. That's why he should stop. It's a race to the bottom. There will always be something that is widely accepted and used by a good chunk of the player base if we always nerf the top dps builds into the ground you get "reworks" like ember that made her next to useless. He is directly attacking a play style that many people use because he claims that it has an negative impact on his game play, however my point still stands if the mission objective is met then why does it matter if he did not do top dps? 

It's part of this whole culture that views everything that is non-conforming as Toxic, I hate to say it but players need to get good or enjoy swimming in the ocean of mediocre play styles. 

Ember is not next to useless. Only if you relied on WoF which was a crappy ability anyway. I always played my ember as a melee with a fire-based weapon (Silva & agis) boosting damage with accelrant. She kills lvl 150 heavy gunners in seconds. The nerf has changed nothing for me.  

Just because many people use something doesn't mean it should be protected or it is a good playstyle, though. Many people really like Justin Bieber. As a maiming strike user, I'm not afraid to admit, that maiming strike is the Justin Bieber of Warframe. It's the definition of talentless and medicore playstyle. Which is why I like it, I guess.

[Vindicus8235]

On 3/15/2018 at 8:31 PM, Pyus said:

It's part of this whole culture that views everything that is non-conforming as Toxic, I hate to say it but players need to get good or enjoy swimming in the ocean of mediocre play styles. 

It's not like maiming strikers are some kind of hipsters with wildly eccentric tastes and a discerning palate that will only accept water from a specific spring in the mountains of Fuji that is infused with esoteric supplements nobody has ever heard of.  The playstyle of spamming 1 key to spin through the mission and win is ubiquitous at this point, making using it quite conformist indeed.  How does one "get good" at pressing one macro key repeatedly?  You would have to be bad at it before you could get good at it.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Vindicus8235

[rune_me]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Weak players in general want nerfs

Not even remotely true. Weak players are the ones crying when something gets nerfed. The players who can't kill anything if they don't have maiming strike so they desperatly don't want it to be nerfed, The players who only ever played ember WoF build because it meant they din't have to do anything that required them to be good at the game, so when she gets nerfed they are lost.

[sleepychewbacca]

22 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Not even remotely true. Weak players are the ones crying when something gets nerfed. The players who can't kill anything if they don't have maiming strike so they desperatly don't want it to be nerfed, The players who only ever played ember WoF build because it meant they din't have to do anything that required them to be good at the game, so when she gets nerfed they are lost.

I agree with this to a degree. While I may disagree with the rational behind Ember's nerf and this proposal to Maiming Strike, it's not as if Warframe becomes completely unplayable. 

Whether we agree or disagree with a nerf, we should be able to bounce back from a change, and work around it. Yes losing something we were fond of sucks. Yes seeing certain people in the community gloat about it is aggravating. But that does not mean the game has failed. Change is frustrating, and it takes time to get used to things. 

But it's ultimately on ourselves if we cannot adapt. 

[freeKappa2014]

4 hours ago, rune_me said:

Ember is not next to useless. Only if you relied on WoF which was a crappy ability anyway. I always played my ember as a melee with a fire-based weapon (Silva & agis) boosting damage with accelrant. She kills lvl 150 heavy gunners in seconds. The nerf has changed nothing for me.  

Just because many people use something doesn't mean it should be protected or it is a good playstyle, though. Many people really like Justin Bieber. As a maiming strike user, I'm not afraid to admit, that maiming strike is the Justin Bieber of Warframe. It's the definition of talentless and medicore playstyle. Which is why I like it, I guess.

lol what so just because you played her at something as mediocre as a melee that means she isnt trash? Bro you could use those weapons and get better results with other frames and you will be better in every other way frames are tankier and faster and stronger and much more fluent at that thing you mentioned she is dead her main use got gutted and replaced by a better frame and the nerf achieved nothing but killed her. People can play excalibur unmodded that doesnt mean if DE removed all his mod slots and thats considered fine because you could do stuff without mods. And why are you talking about justin beiber, you arent proving anything by mentioning him. And what in gods name do you mean by "talentlesss and mediocre  playstyle" in a god damn video game where your repeat the same thing over and over from day 1 to day 1 thousand where warframes have 4 button most of them arent even worth pressing. I am now genuinely curious as to what you consider a talented and exception playstyle. People like you calling for nerfs are bad for game because you have no foresight what exactly is your endgoal? You nerf one thing the next best takes it place where exactly do you want them to stop?

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, freeKappa2014 said:

People like you calling for nerfs are bad for game because you have no foresight what exactly is your endgoal?

People like me? I haven't called for a nerf. In fact if you had read the thread you are posting in, you'd see that I have repeatedly said I was against a nerf.

1 hour ago, freeKappa2014 said:

And why are you talking about justin beiber, you arent proving anything by mentioning him. And what in gods name do you mean by "talentlesss and mediocre  playstyle" in a god damn video game where your repeat the same thing over and over from day 1 to day 1 thousand where warframes have 4 button most of them arent even worth pressing.

Erh, I wasn't. I was replying to someone else who was talking about mediocre gameplay. That's two mistakes you made already. You can have spared yourself both if you had actually bothered to read my posts before replying to me. It's hard to take anything you say serious when you obviously don't even know what you are replying to.

1 hour ago, freeKappa2014 said:

And why are you talking about justin beiber, you arent proving anything by mentioning him

Yes I am. It just went over your head. Which is hardly a surprise to anyone here.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

3 hours ago, rune_me said:

Not even remotely true. Weak players are the ones crying when something gets nerfed.

"Weak" players can be found on both anti-nerf and pro-nerf.

This nerf request for example, is a "weak" player asking to have his own needs met and acting like it's the elephant in the room, even though basically everyone is telling him it's not a problem. There are people who just want something nerfed so they can feel superior.

[vvhorus]

15 hours ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Not to get off topic but are you the same vvhorus from the Division forums? If so glad to see you here!

The one and only!   What's your nick over there?

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

8 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

The one and only!   What's your nick over there?

eckLub

[CityOfTrees]

Hi, I'm gonna chime in here and say that maiming strike is just bad design. I'd like to see this mod dissappear, but I know it probably won't.

That aside, I don't see why you'd want to specifically nerf range or maiming strike (since it isn't going anywhere).

Cheerio.

[vvhorus]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

eckLub

Yep! Welcome! Glad to see you here!

[freeKappa2014]

lo

11 hours ago, rune_me said:

Yes I am. It just went over your head. Which is hardly a surprise to anyone here.

no i know you called him talentless as a comparison but its not a valid one.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

15 hours ago, sleepychewbacca said:

I agree with this to a degree. While I may disagree with the rational behind Ember's nerf and this proposal to Maiming Strike, it's not as if Warframe becomes completely unplayable. 

Whether we agree or disagree with a nerf, we should be able to bounce back from a change, and work around it. Yes losing something we were fond of sucks. Yes seeing certain people in the community gloat about it is aggravating. But that does not mean the game has failed. Change is frustrating, and it takes time to get used to things. 

But it's ultimately on ourselves if we cannot adapt. 

Indeed, when mag was initially changed and bullet attractor became magnetize everyone whined for ages... While a few of us realized she was so much better. Now, shes a gawd... Just want her 3 to effect infested in some way. Otherwise shes perfect.

That wasnt Nerf though.

[Cloud]

On 13/3/2018 at 1:36 AM, Vindicus8235 said:

Can we please talk about the elephant in the room here?  Frames like Ember get World on Fire nerfed because it basically ruins the game for anyone else trying to play.  That was partially true but only worked up to around level 40 mobs.  Now slide attack on the other hand, ruins games up to at least 150 and beyond.  Sorties are a mind numbing bore-fest with a slide attack spammer as there's really nothing left to do since it's a super fast moving screen wide red crit aoe fest.  Please address this egregiously overpowered combo of things for the health of the game.  At the very least cap melee range to a few meters, since you know, it's melee; increase whip and polearm damage to compensate if necessary.  Thanks for your consideration.

You know why people abuse spin attacks and longe range melee? Because melee in this game sucks, plain and simple. There is no reason what so ever to use a melee because guns and abilities do better with much less risks. 

Long ranged spin attacks are the only thing who actually make melees worth something.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Il y a 1 heure, (PS4)big_eviljak a dit :

Indeed, when mag was initially changed and bullet attractor became magnetize everyone whined for ages... While a few of us realized she was so much better. Now, shes a gawd... Just want her 3 to effect infested in some way. Otherwise shes perfect.

That wasnt Nerf though.

It was a nerf to Shield Polarize (now just Polarize) as they removed it's insane power against Corpus and Corrupted. It was enough to insta kill pretty much anything, even on Sortie level and more. It might not be extremely powerfull, but at least it's still a decent skill worth using. 

Mag isn't broken like she was at that time, yet she's still among the strongest casters in the game. It was a nerf from broken against 2 factions to great against all factions, so yeah, can't really say it was just a nerf.

Il y a 1 heure, Cloud a dit :

You know why people abuse spin attacks and longe range melee? Because melee in this game sucks, plain and simple. There is no reason what so ever to use a melee because guns and abilities do better with much less risks. 

Long ranged spin attacks are the only thing who actually make melees worth something.

Melee sucks? Since when? Last time I checked, my Tenora couldn't perform Finishers, nor execute combos with forced procs and bonus damage, nor heal me with Life Strike or Healing Return (or the innate heals of some weapons like the Hirudos and Sancti Magistar).

[Cloud]

1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Melee sucks? Since when? Last time I checked, my Tenora couldn't perform Finishers, nor execute combos with forced procs and bonus damage, nor heal me with Life Strike or Healing Return (or the innate heals of some weapons like the Hirudos and Sancti Magistar).

Do you really bring up finishers as selling point of your argument? Finisher moves are what is more absurd to have in a game like Warframe when an enemy die max with 1-2 rounds of a gun weapon decently built and you are literally surrounded of mobs in frenetic pase missions.

And you know what? Guns do not require combo, do not require to take risks ( so damage) and do not require special condition to unlock superior dps. Try again.

[jfhsanseiIII]

On 3/15/2018 at 8:12 PM, (XB1)Madinogi said:

ok its clear many of you in the camp of "nerf MS" are being very shallow minded in this discussion especially you OP. you people care more about looking through your small view port and refuse to see the bigger picture. 

 

so many have already pointed out. once MS gets nerfed its only going be replaced by something just as potent if not more. thus repeating the cycle until every weapon/mod/warframe is a shadow of its former self and can barely take on lvl 40 enemies. not to mention so many of you seem to forget. their are other mods in the game besides Maiming Strike and Blood rush. just throwing on MS+BR isnt going allow you to all of a sudden begin one hit killing everything you come in contact with in the game. I.E sortie level enemies. you need other damage enhancing mods in order to pull that stuff off. and most likely including a riven mod which is complete RNG in all aspects since you not only need to get the mod to drop for that weapon, but also you need to roll the right stats on it which could take any where from 1 roll (unlikely) damn well into the 100's if not more rolls. thats ALOT of kuva being wasted just to get the right stats on ONE weapon. 

i just bought MS and BR and threw em on my atterax. and just right off the bat im not one shotting anything above lvl 25 with the slide. and certainly not room clearing as many of you seem to suggest. thats because i need more then just those 2 mods on it. which honestly throws out your entire arguments for nerfing the mod. because you have need other stuff you have to go out and get and level up in order to accomplish that. you guys are pretty much punishing players for going so far as to min max their builds to accomplish this kind of thing. devaluing all their time and effort just because you dont like how they play. thats REALLY petty. 

 

and me and others have already told you. if you dont like how others play. you are free to leave and go run the missions solo or with like minded friends. you are not forced into public games (unless DE removed your 3 other lobby settings forcing you into Pubs. but thats a DE problem not a player problem) theres a widely accepted rule in games with PUG features. "Anything and Everything goes" if you join a public match and they are not playing the way YOU want them to. it is not you're right to dictate to them how they should play. you can ask them nicely if they can stop. but they are not required to oblige you. to think they are is just you being insensitive and rather childish. if you dont like how someone plays you are free to leave and start up a solo or private session. 

this mentality is widely accepted among the playerbase but doesnt seem to be accepted by you. 

 

so in the midst of all this. i ask why is it ok for you dictate how other people should play when you yourself hit that join button on a public lobby knowing full well you are running the risk of getting teamed up with people who play a certain way you do not like. all of this is a YOU problem. because you dont like how others play. doesnt mean they need to be punished for it. that is selfish and childish thinking. 

 

for me its absolutely Ludicrous that things are getting nerfed in a bloody PvE game. 

A lot of mental gymnastics going on here.

If an item can be built in a way as to minimize input from the player and reduce the amount of input from players. Then add in the factor that other players also lose their ability to interact with the game then you’ve a problem.  

If there were a more powerful way to do it, people would be doing it already.  

Balance is a constant job in games like these.  I made the point earlier but it needs to be said again. Life is a lot like that.  You have to adapt.  Yea.  players will move onto the next most powerful thing and yes if it proves to minimize the input of players then it’ll probably get balanced as well.  

I don’t think players have a problem with powerful items.  They’re great.  The Tigris is arguably the most powerful weapon in the game.  However, most people don’t use it because it doesn’t minimize the need for input by players the way an MS Atterax build does.  I find the entire “thus repeating the cycle until every weapon/mod/warframe is a shadow of its former self and can barely take on lvl 40 enemies” intellectually dishonest, unoriginal, and puerile at the very least.  

Arguing that it isn’t powerful until you mod it properly is a moot point.  That’s true for everything. 

Finally, if there’s one thing that is the best in a PVE game that outperforms everything else, why use anything else? People shouldn’t have to logout because they see someone has something that will prevent them from interacting with the environment.  It is a game is it not? I okay games to play the game.  I want to have fun.  I don’t find playing or watching S2W fun or engaging and I don’t think many other people do as well.  Therefore I see that as gamebreaking.  Same for anything else that essentially works as a nuke.  Now if someone logged in with a Tigris and proceeded to destroy everything, then I would only have one complaint, and it would look like this “I need to step up my game.”

If you want to be OP then be OP with skill not with a gimmick.  

Edited March 17, 2018 by jfhsanseiIII

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

15 minutes ago, Cloud said:

Do you really bring up finishers as selling point of your argument? Finisher moves are what is more absurd to have in a game like Warframe when an enemy die max with 1-2 rounds of a gun weapon decently built and you are literally surrounded of mobs in frenetic pase missions.

And you know what? Guns do not require combo, do not require to take risks ( so damage) and do not require special condition to unlock superior dps. Try again.

Guns require ammo. Melee doesn't. Combo counter with guaranteed status (weeping wounds) and crit (bloodrush) and no riven insures melee is the single most effective dmg dealer in the game. Ever had ur combo counter past x5? Nothing can stand against it... Anything of any lvl takes a dirt nap. Also gladiator mods are epic.

Guns cant begin to compete, period.

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Cloud]

Just now, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Guns require ammo. Melee doesn't. Combo counter with guaranteed status (weeping wounds) and crit (bloodrush) and no riven insures melee is the single most effective dmg dealer in the game. Ever had ur combo counter past x5? Nothing can stand against it... Anything of any lvl takes a dirt nap.

Guns cant begin to compete, period.

really ammo? I don't even remember when I runned out of ammo in this game.

Yeah sure, I highly agree with that, nothing can compete with melee dps, but when you restrict all that damage to few enemies is like using a nuke to kill a rat. That's why people abuse spin attacks, they permit to use all that massive damage against more enemies in a restricted area of no more than 20 meters (for the most ranged melees) and permit to do it in a very good time proficiency way. 

You could give me a gamebreaking melee with black crit but it will be always worst against a gun or ability which can use half of that damage but against more than triple the targets.

Moreover there is no content which goes beyond lvl 80-100 worth of doing, so you don't really need apocalictic damage. Proficiency will always win.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 13 minutes, Cloud a dit :

Do you really bring up finishers as selling point of your argument? Finisher moves are what is more absurd to have in a game like Warframe when an enemy die max with 1-2 rounds of a gun weapon decently built and you are literally surrounded of mobs in frenetic pase missions.

I'm not even sure if you fully understand what you're talking about. Finisher, less effective than 2 rounds of a gun? You'll need to be more precise on what weapon you're using, because unless it's a Tigris on steroid, a Lanka in a Mag bubble or an Opticor with some insane Riven, I don't see how 2 shots can outperform a Finisher.

il y a 2 minutes, Cloud a dit :

really ammo? I don't even remember when I runned out of ammo in this game.

Yeah sure, I highly agree with that, nothing can compete with melee dps, but when you restrict all that damage to few enemies is like using a nuke to kill a rat.

Try to use something else than a Carrier with an ammo efficient weapon next time, and we'll see if you remember. 

Guns are just as limited in targets than melees, if not more. You can't hit multiple ones unless you have some PT, in which case you might hit 2-3 if they're lined up, but with melee you can hit all the enemies within range on every hits, so if you are using a Hammer/Heavy Blade/Whip-Blade/Polearm/etc., you can hit just as many targets if not more. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

32 minutes ago, Cloud said:

really ammo? I don't even remember when I runned out of ammo in this game.

Yeah sure, I highly agree with that, nothing can compete with melee dps, but when you restrict all that damage to few enemies is like using a nuke to kill a rat. That's why people abuse spin attacks, they permit to use all that massive damage against more enemies in a restricted area of no more than 20 meters (for the most ranged melees) and permit to do it in a very good time proficiency way. 

You could give me a gamebreaking melee with black crit but it will be always worst against a gun or ability which can use half of that damage but against more than triple the targets.

Moreover there is no content which goes beyond lvl 80-100 worth of doing, so you don't really need apocalictic damage. Proficiency will always win.

U obviously dont use gun blades. Redeemer can one shot vay hek sortie 3 with no riven.

Sarpa can vor n lich krill sortie 3 with ease. Melee is so much more powerful than guns.

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Vindicus8235]

6 hours ago, Cloud said:

You know why people abuse spin attacks and longe range melee? Because melee in this game sucks, plain and simple. There is no reason what so ever to use a melee because guns and abilities do better with much less risks. 

Long ranged spin attacks are the only thing who actually make melees worth something.

If you'd said guns are stronger than melee against Eidolons and a handful of other encounters in the game I'd agree, but in basically any other context that statement is so far disconnected from reality that it's difficult to comprehend how you arrived at such a conclusion.

[UrielColtan]

On 3/12/2018 at 7:36 PM, Vindicus8235 said:

Can we please talk about the elephant in the room here?  Frames like Ember get World on Fire nerfed because it basically ruins the game for anyone else trying to play.  That was partially true but only worked up to around level 40 mobs.  Now slide attack on the other hand, ruins games up to at least 150 and beyond.  Sorties are a mind numbing bore-fest with a slide attack spammer as there's really nothing left to do since it's a super fast moving screen wide red crit aoe fest.  Please address this egregiously overpowered combo of things for the health of the game.  At the very least cap melee range to a few meters, since you know, it's melee; increase whip and polearm damage to compensate if necessary.  Thanks for your consideration.

You're just assuming everyone has maiming strike, one of the rarest mods in the game that can't be actively farmed until the specific acolyte comes back, and requires multiple mods and especially Blood Rush, to make not barely above average. If its also so accessible and OP, then I presume you also have access to such builds to kill your fair share..

Nerfing Maiming won't solve your dilemma anyway, as there are rivens that mimic what it does. Nerfing range too, is a bad option, to the point that you might as well be using your fists(Or in other words, no melee at all.).  Expanding the melee options and how combo multiplier is built, can help diversify things at the very least(Aside from you taking some initiative to recruit your own team instead of expecting catering in Pub), though I must stress that, this is a horde game, not a one on one. A player should be able to take out groups of enemies with their tools and especially rare/exclusive mods, and the devs should honestly also lay off the enemy spawn cap, used to be way more enemy spawns. Sorties are also better containment cells for that sort of thing as people tend to want to  get those done quick(Especially during those 10 waves of the derpy-Operative defense.) so they don't have to worry about missing it later when next rotation comes around, and the frames are either nerfed or the enemies are either enchanced in some way in these with potential oneshots of their own, from all angles.

Edited March 17, 2018 by UrielColtan

[Jim22]

Please tell me why you hate this mod so much that it needs to be nerfed.

In my opinion I don't think it needs to be nerfed because it's only good on whips and polarms. Also it isn't really that good at high level missions condition overload is way better for that.