Please remove Limbo's potential to troll with this simple fix

[PhantomRen]

I'm sick and tired of getting rude, uncooperative Limbo players on my team that troll everyone and make the mission more difficult and frustrating. Listen up everyone, DE has removed abilities and interactions that could be used for trolling in the past. Remember old Mag, who could pull teammates over and over again? Well back in the day, most Mag players were nice people for a while, until more and more started trolling by yanking their teammates and the ability was eventually reworked. They also removed the ability to proc radiation on yourself, which is another huge way players could troll their teammates. And here's how we can change Limbo in a way that COMPLETELY removes his trolling potential 100% without nerfing him, without making him less fun to play, a change that will make everyone like Limbo 10x more than they currently do. One simple solution that can change EVERYTHING.

 

Change Limbo so that when bullets, projectiles and so on get frozen in his time rift, players can force their bullets/projectiles to resume traveling by using the aim button.

 

Now while this change sounds simple, I am by no means an expert on coding and developing video games. But this is the only way we can fix Limbo without making him worse. I don't want a warframe to get nerfed just because too many people troll with it, but if this change goes through I guarantee NOBODY will ever complain about Limbo ever again. He'll still be useful, he can still create a big bubble where enemies can't move or attack, but players will still be able to kill enemies and enjoy themselves. It's unfair how players are forced to use melee weapons to kill enemies in the rift, not everyone enjoys that play style or wants to have to bring a top tier melee weapon with them at all times for the off chance they find a Limbo. There is absolutely no reason to disagree with this change, unless you're a troll, because it benefits both the people who hate Limbo as well as those who enjoy Limbo. Let's change Limbo from a troll frame to a nice defense frame. Put an end to trolling. With this change, both Limbo and his teammates will be able to enjoy the unique mechanics of his time rift, and players who just want to kill enemies can simply look down their weapon's sights and shred enemies without being hindered. It's not a buff or a nerf, it's a quality of life change that's sure to generate plenty of positive feedback. Most of us can kill the enemy in one or two hits and we don't need a big time rift stopping us from doing our jobs.

[(XBOX)Xorthromauth]

I don't disagree with the change, it is nice, but it isn't the main problem with Limbo trolls. I'd say the main problem is being continuously thrown in and out of the rift, or (personally) having all enemies in an area put in stasis over and over so they can't be killed, but that's my opinion.

[Aldenshae]

This is a surprisingly succinct tweak that doesn't require a total rework.  It doesn't solve the problem of which side of the rift you're on (which I still feel can be solved with an unambiguous visual tweak) but it mitigates Stasis issues without fundamentally changing it.  I approve of this idea.  Aim to "opt out" of Stasis, or don't aim and set up volley shenanigans.  Very nice.

[Insizer]

This is certainly an interesting idea, one that I would at least test in house first if I was a dev, but I'm not.

On the subject of Stasis though.  From my experiences as a Limbo main it seems that the issue is not so much Stasis, but rather Cataclysm.  Frankly, its default range is too damn big.  Stasis on its own isn't all that disruptive.  However it's disruptiveness is multiplied by Cataclysm and the size of the area it can lock down.  If Cataclysm is the size of half of a tile or more then your allies don't have nearly that much freedom and are forced to deal with Cataclysm and any active Stasis and just get upset because they: are being prevented from doing their own thing, can't immediately kill large numbers of enemies, have to slow down and hunt for frozen enemies in such a large area, are being "forced" to use their melees, not being able to escape the rift as they please, and have to adapt their playstyle based on the whim of someone who won't talk.  However, if Cataclysm is small then fewer enemies are affected and allies can avoid the effects of Stasis much more freely.  That's why imo they should make it the size of Frost's Snowglobe.  There are a few more edits to Limbo I would like to see done, but that's for another thread.

On another note, one can disagree with your idea without wanting to preserve the trolling capability of Stasis.  Frankly, I am a bit worried about Stasis becoming too powerful if allied bullets can fly during Stasis.  That's why I won't sign on immediately, rather I think, as I stated above, that the idea should first face an in-house "cheese" test to see how possibly broken it is.  Also, Limbo is a good defense frame already (but I doubt you were insinuating he wasn't). 

Finally, abilities are not affected by Stasis, just like melees.

 

EDIT: Another interesting idea is to have a delay between undoing Stasis and enemies getting unfrozen.  This would allow Limbo's to untoggle Stasis to effectively dump the built up shots (into the enemies your allies were shooting) and then reactivate Stasis without compromising the CC and safety gained from freezing enemies.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Insizer
added more

[DaftMeat]

The only real fix Limbo needs: Stasis should only freeze enemies, not weapons fire. If people wants their projectiles frozen, turn that into an augment that affects the Limbo player only (so they can slot it if if they want that feature).

Done.

P.S.: As a bonus, Rift Surge should be a team buff.

[NeoSmile]

WOW

i read the tittle ''Please remove Limbo's potential to troll with this simple fix'' and thought to myself ''another person who does not know limbo ranting a stupid idea to break limbo''

then i read your post about using aim to be able to shoot without being affected by stasis

and i thought ''this is actually a pretty good idea''

just a question about what you stated

37 minutes ago, PhantomRen said:

Change Limbo so that when bullets, projectiles and so on get frozen in his time rift, players can force their bullets/projectiles to resume traveling by using the aim button.

does it mean whilst aiming/shooting or after shooting activate by aiming (either way, as an actual non trolling based (i only sometimes troll in the forums (not in game)) limbo player i really like this idea (but maybe make it the interact button (if the latter) as aiming is sometimes required for those ''awesome'' setups (espescially the za warudo ones)))

 

sadly thoug trolls will always find a way to have a laugh (like a speed nova in a grineer mobile defence (not sure if i should post this idea (too late now)))

 

ps. as you might have noticed about the rest of my post that thought i had in the beginning was removed instantly when i read your post

[Insizer]

4 minutes ago, DaftMeat said:

The only real fix Limbo needs: Stasis should only freeze enemies, not weapons fire. If people wants their projectiles frozen, turn that into an augment that affects the Limbo player only (so they can slot it if if they want that feature).

Done.

P.S.: As a bonus, Rift Surge should be a team buff.

That would be incredibly broken imo given the massive range of Cataclysm.

[DaftMeat]

Just now, Insizer said:

That would be incredibly broken imo given the massive range of Cataclysm.

Then adjust the range. IMO, it's ridiculously large already.

[Insizer]

Just now, DaftMeat said:

Then adjust the range. IMO, it's ridiculously large already.

I agree, the range ought to be nerfed to the size of Snowglobe.  Tbh, that would be the first stasis "fix" I would try out.  I've only found one instance where that kind of massive range is preferable: kuva missions to allow your team to focus on the fatties and the kuva gathering.

[EDM774]

Why does everyone run max range cataclysm builds? I keep mine between 70 and 90% range and it starts about as big as max range snow globe and shrinks to a size covering a one man standing in front of a MD console. If everyone's ideas of nerfing his range to the ground goes trough, my perfect catastasis build will be ruined.

I do want to note I almost never play in pubs with top hat man and even If i do have to go to a pub match I choose another more suitable frame.

[SweatyFalcon]

50 minutes ago, (XB1)Apollyon VII said:

I don't disagree with the change, it is nice, but it isn't the main problem with Limbo trolls. I'd say the main problem is being continuously thrown in and out of the rift, or (personally) having all enemies in an area put in stasis over and over so they can't be killed, but that's my opinion.

Just roll then
It's so easy to get out of the rift
And if the Limbo freezes the enemies, go look for new ones
Not that hard

[Insizer]

13 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

Why does everyone run max range cataclysm builds? I keep mine between 70 and 90% range and it starts about as big as max range snow globe and shrinks to a size covering a one man standing in front of a MD console. If everyone's ideas of nerfing his range to the ground goes trough, my perfect catastasis build will be ruined.

I do want to note I almost never play in pubs with top hat man and even If i do have to go to a pub match I choose another more suitable frame.

the reason people use max range builds is because they are your average player in warframe.  They are more interested in serving themselves, the rest of the team be damned... more or less.  Large range means more control of everything ideally.  There is very little teamplay in this game, rather everyone is individuals acting towards a similar goal.

I use 46% range to make my Cataclysm around the size of a default Snowglobe, I've only found one instance where max range or more range is preferable: kuva missions.  The low range also buffs my duration and lets me keep Cataclysm+Stasis up for more than a minute which is great for defensive missions.  In my experience, by playing this way, if an ally is getting "disrupted" by my Cataclysm+Stasis then they are going out of their way to get disrupted by it because the effects of it are so localized that it is easy to avoid.

3 minutes ago, _Ruby_Rose_ said:

And if the Limbo freezes the enemies, go look for new ones

It really comes down to the range of Cataclysm.  Very large range/max range builds are nothing but a nuisance and turn a slaughterfest into a hunting game which players don't like.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Insizer

[PhantomRen]

Whoa, it seems like this thread is off to a great start! We're all having some nice, healthy, civil game discussion here. That's great, and I'd now that I'm back for a few more moments I'd like to say a few things in response. I am by no means an expert on Limbo. I've never played or built him before. My knowledge on him is limited, although I have looked at his page on the wiki a few times. If there are other issues with Limbo when it comes to trolling and making the game more frustrating for your teammates, I wouldn't exactly know. All I do know, is that I've been on the receiving end of consistent frustration by having Limbo players make enemies nearly invulnerable, forcing me to use a specific play style (One that I'm not always prepared to utilize) when I can already kill enemies easily with my primary and secondary weapons. If Limbo can troll in more ways than one, it would be nice if we can tweak him further, but for now I believe the most common issue and source of frustration is how his time rift or whatever stops players from killing enemies. One person was confused with the context of my suggestion and how it works, so I'd like to clarify this here.

 

34 minutes ago, NeoSmile said:

does it mean whilst aiming/shooting or after shooting activate by aiming

How my suggestion will work is essentially both ways. If you shoot bullets and other projectiles into the rift, whether you're inside or outside of it, the projectiles will freeze as usual. If you press the aim button after that, your frozen projectiles will then continue traveling their path to damage and kill the enemy. But if you're holding down the aim button while inside or outside of the rift, and you fire your weapon into the rift, anything you're shooting won't become frozen. This way you can hold down the aim button to ignore the bullet freezing mechanic, or only press the aim button after setting up lots of projectiles. So basically, Limbo and his teammates get to decide whenever they want to have their projectiles frozen. You can either kill everything like usual, or mark the frozen enemies for death while you fight enemies outside of the rift during missions where you defend an objective. As usual, the goal is to make Limbo less frustrating to play with so he feels less like a troll character, without nerfing, buffing or reworking him. I'll continue lurking the thread and reading posts, as I'm sure there's a lot more I can learn here.

[Insizer]

1 minute ago, PhantomRen said:

If Limbo can troll in more ways than one, it would be nice if we can tweak him further

The ways Limbo can troll are limited to a number of forms of: banishing allies when they dont want to be banished, banishing enemies your allies are trying to kill, using Cataclysm to "banish" and take control of a large or important area which your allies want to use, and using Stasis when your allies are both in the rift and don't want their shots frozen.

Most of these issues revolve around Limbo biting off more than he can chew via Banish and Rift Surge and taking control of too large an area, all of these issues are fed by excessive range in my experience.  The issues that aren't caused by too much range are caused by: people who will find a way to troll regardless of what is done, people who are inexperienced with Limbo, accidents, newer allies who don't know how to play alongside a Limbo on the most basic levels, and sometimes the allies of Limbo who go far out of their way to get rustled by Limbo or frankly cause trouble as part of some sort of "sweet justice" personal crusade against Limbo users fueled by their own self-importance (I could tell you stories).

[dyewithasmile]

2nd day in a row i have spent 24 min failing a triplelyst bounty becuase of a random limbo troll whom did almost everything possible to make us fail... its the official worst case scenario imo.

[Insizer]

1 minute ago, dyewithasmile said:

2nd day in a row i have spent 24 min failing a triplelyst bounty becuase of a random limbo troll whom did almost everything possible to make us fail... its the official worst case scenario imo.

My heart goes out to you... I mean it shouldn't even be that hard to use Limbo effectively for that mission, granted he doesn't add much for the team there.

[PsiWarp]

A good start. It would alleviate Stasis-related grievances for teammates who wish to utilize their guns. Although this is an extra functionality to preserve your team's sanity, it does result in a buff since Stasis also freezes rift-bound enemies in place for up to 91.8 seconds. A counterbalance measure is bound to follow, whether in the form a base duration nerf or other mechanic changes.

Still, I applaud the simplicity of this idea. Not only would it put the control back to the other players' hands, it would also reduce the amount of Stasis breaking from too many projectiles being suspended in the Rift, especially those generated by Sentinels (I love you Artax, but you're not helping!)

[PhantomRen]

2 minutes ago, Insizer said:

The ways Limbo can troll are limited to a number of forms of: banishing allies when they dont want to be banished, banishing enemies your allies are trying to kill, using Cataclysm to "banish" and take control of a large or important area which your allies want to use, and using Stasis when your allies are both in the rift and don't want their shots frozen.

Most of these issues revolve around Limbo biting off more than he can chew via Banish and Rift Surge and taking control of too large an area, all of these issues are fed by excessive range in my experience.  The issues that aren't caused by too much range are caused by: people who will find a way to troll regardless of what is done, people who are inexperienced with Limbo, accidents, newer allies who don't know how to play alongside a Limbo on the most basic levels, and sometimes the allies of Limbo who go far out of their way to get rustled by Limbo or frankly cause trouble as part of some sort of "sweet justice" personal crusade against Limbo users fueled by their own self-importance (I could tell you stories).

That all sounds very interesting, yet unfortunate. Again, I'm no expert on his mechanics but I feel that if my suggestion were to make it into the game, it would get rid of a huge amount of frustration that players have with Limbo. I'm not saying having your shots frozen is the only issue, not only because I asked what other issues were as well as the fact that I was just given proof that Limbo can be troublesome in other ways, but still. I don't know any simple solutions for handling the rest of Limbo's trolling potential. And because you're mentioning range being a crucial part of these other issues, I fear that we might be getting closer to "Nerf Limbo" territory. And I don't want that (Because why should everyone suffer just because some people are jerks) but if any knowledgeable individuals would like to discuss that in this thread, it's fine by me.

 

1 minute ago, PsiWarp said:

A good start. It would alleviate Stasis-related grievances for teammates who wish to utilize their guns. Although this is an extra functionality to preserve your team's sanity, it does result in a buff since Stasis also freezes rift-bound enemies in place for up to 91.8 seconds. A counterbalance measure is bound to follow, whether in the form a base duration nerf or other mechanic changes.

Still, I applaud the simplicity of this idea. Not only would it put the control back to the other players' hands, it would also reduce the amount of Stasis breaking from too many projectiles being suspended in the Rift, especially those generated by Sentinels (I love you Artax, but you're not helping!)

Thank you for your kind words. Well, the reason why I see it as less of a buff and more of a quality of life change, is that technically the people who say "Just use melee" are right. After all, there are a handful of melee weapons out there that can annihilate crowds of enemies. Although... I think if we talked more about that subject, we'd end up delving into the "Slide attack meta" and have a discussion about how overpowered that is. Still, the fact that stasis forces allies to use a specific play style that they won't always be prepared to utilize isn't fair, and if making this change means Limbo has to get nerfed or tweaked in a very slight manner, then I suppose it would be for the greater good. Besides, Limbo players that use this annoying stasis build tend to bring extremely powerful melee weapons anyway, running around and annihilating enemies both inside and outside of the rift. Duration sounds like a good way to go on about this though because 90 seconds of stasis is a bit extreme. My point remains though, and I strongly think what I've brought to the table will be an excellent way to start handling the issue. Here's hoping DE is willing to acknowledge and test this idea.

[IfritKajiTora]

Today on sorties we waited 3 minutes until limbo realized that we can't put datamass into mobile defense console because of his cataclysm.

[peterc3]

This isn't simple.

2 hours ago, PhantomRen said:

I guarantee NOBODY will ever complain about Limbo ever again.

You can't make this guarantee.

The whole point of Stasis is that you can set up shots and enemies are completely frozen. In return, you only have free use of your melee and frame abilities. Free use of a Tigris P while immune to nearly everything and all enemies frozen if they get near you is beyond broken and there would have to be a nerf to its effectiveness.

[Insizer]

1 hour ago, PhantomRen said:

That all sounds very interesting, yet unfortunate. Again, I'm no expert on his mechanics but I feel that if my suggestion were to make it into the game, it would get rid of a huge amount of frustration that players have with Limbo. I'm not saying having your shots frozen is the only issue, not only because I asked what other issues were as well as the fact that I was just given proof that Limbo can be troublesome in other ways, but still. I don't know any simple solutions for handling the rest of Limbo's trolling potential. And because you're mentioning range being a crucial part of these other issues, I fear that we might be getting closer to "Nerf Limbo" territory. And I don't want that (Because why should everyone suffer just because some people are jerks) but if any knowledgeable individuals would like to discuss that in this thread, it's fine by me.

Don't worry, I'm not jumping down your throat or anything.  And I too don't want to enter that territory.  Honestly, as of right now this is a rather civil thread.

[(PSN)TertulSee]

I laugh at your foolish “problem” compared to the others he has. Not only can he stop bullets, he can also prevent you from starting mobile defense, hacking consoles, picking up items and a variety of other things that will hinder your gameplay. What I would suggest is to be able to exit the Rift while in Cataclysm for other players besides Limbo. This would be OP if Limbo had that option but it’s still better than being unable to progress indefinitely.

[EDM774]

I just had this crazy idea that could be a workaround for all potential involuntary banishes or misuses of the max range catastasis builds or limbo Trolls in general. What if DE adds some sort of gimmick to the operators (since they are unaffected by any warframe abilities), Where the operator goes back and shoots a special void energy charge at his/her frame and that gives it the operator's ability immunity for a period of time. For example Limbo catastasis locks the whole map, no problem pop into your kid let him tweak your frame go back and all effects of the catastasis don't apply to you for X amount of time. And you can freely shoot enemies or melee them if you want wether they are in stasis or not (just like operators can)

[Arzurag]

Players are the problem, not the frame but let´s change the frame to prevent players from being a problem.

[Pizzarugi]

18 hours ago, EDM774 said:

Why does everyone run max range cataclysm builds? I keep mine between 70 and 90% range and it starts about as big as max range snow globe and shrinks to a size covering a one man standing in front of a MD console. If everyone's ideas of nerfing his range to the ground goes trough, my perfect catastasis build will be ruined.

I do want to note I almost never play in pubs with top hat man and even If i do have to go to a pub match I choose another more suitable frame.

 

On 3/2/2018 at 6:50 PM, Pizzarugi said:

And if the only "good" Limbo player is the one that has to play a very specific mod build to not disrupt the rest of the team, the problem is on Limbo. If people want to lock down entire rooms with a bubble, they should be able to, but they can't because stasis is disruptive to everyone.