Rest in peace Wukong pocket nuke

[StabbyTentacles]

53 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Wukong has no place in this game besides the fun that some of us have with him, and believe me, I have fun with him. I can say with almost utmost certainty that I have more kills with Primal Fury than, well, anyone else in this thread. However just because that is, to me, the single most fun ability in the game however doesn't mean I'm blinded to the fact that it's not ''good'', and that when you're looking for 4 frames that you want to bring to the top tier of content it's easy to consider Wukong ''unusable''.

Hopefully the recent surge of Wukong threads will push DE into finally addressing him, I've gotten 1 damn buff in the 2 and a half years he's been in the game, and that was to make Iron Jab add to the melee combo metre... Not even to benefit from it, just to add to it.

Thanks man. I really want to use him, (mainly cause I want a new toy) it's just hard to get enthused the way he stands atm.

I'm hoping DE too will see the opportunity they have with Wukong, he's the monkey king damnit!🤩

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

I think you're stressing out too much over their use of ''unusable'' if I'm honest. It's fairly clear that they mean ''not as viable an option''.

And he really isn't. Wukong is not a viable option when compared to other frames. I have a nice Chroma build that not only allows me to tank Elite Onslaught, but I can make my entire team tank Elite Onslaught whilst dealing increased weapon damage. There are Rhino players capable of getting thousands upon thousands of health on their Iron Skins, meaning that not only are they tanking but they can also damage buff and CC for the team. Wukong is simply not a good option for tanking, because not only is his tanking selfish but he lacks anything else that benefits the team.

If you're using Wukong for damage (like I do) then unfortunately a standard melee weapon will outdamage him over time due to their access to Rivens, acolyte mods and generally better range, not to mention all the frames that simply do damage better, like Mesa or Equinox.

Wukong has no place in this game besides the fun that some of us have with him, and believe me, I have fun with him. I can say with almost utmost certainty that I have more kills with Primal Fury than, well, anyone else in this thread. However just because that is, to me, the single most fun ability in the game however doesn't mean I'm blinded to the fact that it's not ''good'', and that when you're looking for 4 frames that you want to bring to the top tier of content it's easy to consider Wukong ''unusable''.

Hopefully the recent surge of Wukong threads will push DE into finally addressing him, I've gotten 1 damn buff in the 2 and a half years he's been in the game, and that was to make Iron Jab add to the melee combo metre... Not even to benefit from it, just to add to it.

listen. I'm not saying he doesn't need work, but unusable? i think not. not viable for high lvl content? he can do sortie np. DE doesnt balance warframe around enemy lvl 200+ people keep getting this point twisted. all frames falloff at some point. it is just different for each one when that happens. not every frame needs to have team based powers. i am absolutely ok with frames that don"t because squad make up is 4 people. if a person brings a frame that can kill to the squad, hes contributing to the team. if they bring one that cant kill but can CC, hes contributing to the team, ive had to carry people in nightmare with wukong several times as im sure you have as well.

wukong has no need for high range CC because of 2 simple things. Defy, and cloud walker renders the need for CC invalid, and his block combo on primal fury ragdolls in a good AOE. if they rework his kit i wont complain but i do like him as he is now. i have all 35 frames and never once have i ever thought or said "this frame is unusable so i wont take it into a mission" but thats just me.

Edited May 6, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[main_antagonist]

Press F to pay respects

[DeMonkey]

28 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

listen. I'm not saying he doesn't need work, but unusable? i think not.

I'd like to refer you to my previous post.

''I think you're stressing out too much over their use of ''unusable'' if I'm honest. It's fairly clear that they mean ''not as viable an option''.''

29 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

not viable for high lvl content? he can do sortie np

I'd like to refer you to my previous post. I also didn't state that Wukong wasn't viable for high level content.

''Wukong is not a viable option when compared to other frames''

I then listed the reasons why Wukong isn't a viable pick over other frames, namely Rhino and Chroma who will each tank just as well whilst doing far more. If you're wanting to tank for your team and you pick Wukong, you hurt the team. If you're wanting to do DPS and you pick Wukong, you hurt the team. 95% of the time that's irrelevant, but it's still a factor.

31 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

DE doesnt balance warframe around enemy lvl 200+ people keep getting this point twisted.

I didn't state DE balance the game around level 200.

34 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

not every frame needs to have team based powers.

I didn't state that every Warframe needs team based powers. I'm noticing a pattern here.

No, I merely pointed out that everything Wukong does can be done just as well if not better by other frames, said frames also benefit the team on top of that.

35 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i am absolutely ok with frames that don"t because squad make up is 4 people. if a person brings a frame that can kill to the squad, hes contributing to the team. if they bring one that cant kill but can CC, hes contributing to the team, ive had to carry people in nightmare with wukong several times as im sure you have as well.

I'm confused, first you say that it's okay for a frame to not actually benefit the team, but then you list acceptable contributions.

The thing is, that at higher levels Wukong doesn't kill nearly as fast as other frames, so that's the killing contribution out.

He can't reliably CC with any of his abilities, and even Exodia hunt has a short range, so that's the CC contribution out.

All he can do is take damage, and nothing else. Something that other frames can do just as well in the sub-level 200 content we are balanced around. Being a revive bot is not an acceptable contribution, imo.

40 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

never once have i thought or said "this frame is unusable so i wont take it into a mission" but thats just me.

Nor have I, but my point still stands. Wukong is, comparatively, the least useful frame in this game. You're getting overly worked up about the use of ''unusable''.

[EinheriarJudith]

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'd like to refer you to my previous post.

''I think you're stressing out too much over their use of ''unusable'' if I'm honest. It's fairly clear that they mean ''not as viable an option''.''

I'd like to refer you to my previous post. I also didn't state that Wukong wasn't viable for high level content.

''Wukong is not a viable option when compared to other frames''

I then listed the reasons why Wukong isn't a viable pick over other frames, namely Rhino and Chroma who will each tank just as well whilst doing far more. If you're wanting to tank for your team and you pick Wukong, you hurt the team. If you're wanting to do DPS and you pick Wukong, you hurt the team. 95% of the time that's irrelevant, but it's still a factor.

I didn't state DE balance the game around level 200.

I didn't state that every Warframe needs team based powers. I'm noticing a pattern here.

No, I merely pointed out that everything Wukong does can be done just as well if not better by other frames, said frames also benefit the team on top of that.

I'm confused, first you say that it's okay for a frame to not actually benefit the team, but then you list acceptable contributions.

The thing is, that at higher levels Wukong doesn't kill nearly as fast as other frames, so that's the killing contribution out.

He can't reliably CC with any of his abilities, and even Exodia hunt has a short range, so that's the CC contribution out.

All he can do is take damage, and nothing else. Something that other frames can do just as well in the sub-level 200 content we are balanced around. Being a revive bot is not an acceptable contribution, imo.

Nor have I, but my point still stands. Wukong is, comparatively, the least useful frame in this game. You're getting overly worked up about the use of ''unusable''.

not a viable pick is just opinion.

didnt say you did. i was expressing my opinion about the matter.

if any frame can do something better than another frame everyone would be playing that one frame... and their not.

i was merely stating they don't need to have "team based powers" to be considered contributing. a frame not needing team based powers is not the same as saying they dont contribute because of this.

also take note im not accusing you of saying anything.

unless the definition of unusable has changes it means: not fit to be used.  which is the context they are using and that ive called out to be untrue.

anything else? we just disagree on points im fine with that. but nothing more need be said. the op is salty about them taking away something completely broken and then saying it was his only use which i almost have no words for.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

not a viable pick is just opinion.

I'll refer you to my previous post, again.

28 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

It's fairly clear that they mean ''not as viable an option''.''

Which is not an opinion, it's a fact.

If a frame can do the same job, except better and then also benefit the team in other ways it is a far better pick for the team.

6 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

unless the definition of unusable has changes it means: not fit to be used.  which is the context they are using and that ive called out to be untrue.

Like I said, you're far too stuck on that single word. Every frame is usable, no rational thinking human would think otherwise, therefore that was clearly not what they intended to mean.

Useful, viable etc are far more likely to be the meaning, especially when taking context into account.

9 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

the op is salty about them taking away something completely broken and then saying it was his only use which i almost have no words for.

Because, quite frankly in the grand scheme of top tier content, that was his only use. I didn't like it, I certainly didn't use it. But that was the only reason he was a valid pick for running longer Onslaught missions. Without it, he really has no use. 

Look at it like this, you're limited to 4 frames for a mission. If you bring Wukong that means you have taken up a slot that could have been used by a frame that isn't trash, like Rhino, Chroma, Saryn etc.

So, in that same vein if you're wanting to build a team for Onslaught you will never want a Wukong, because it hurts the composition as a whole by bringing absolutely nothing to the table.

Same reason why people might say that ''Magnum Force'' isn't usable, it is usable yes, but you hurt your pistol build as a whole by bringing it since it has reduced damage (compared to other mods) and reduced accuracy. If you're wanting to be even remotely efficient it is not usable.

Sod it, you know full well what they meant. If you want to get stuck on that single word then whatever.

[MiraClena]

9 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

but unusable? i think not. not viable for high lvl content? he can do sortie np.

That's a kinda unfair condition because you don't really need much commitment to start doing sortie with any warframe without using any ability. Going by your condition, if DE released a warframe with 0 ability and similar stat to other warframe, that is still a usable warframe and no balancing is needed.

I started playing 3 weeks ago and I can absolutely enter sortie with any warframe because you just don't need to use the ability, only the weapon/mod matter.

It still doesn't change the fact that Wukong is much below other warframe in terms of functionality.

Edited May 6, 2018 by MiraClena

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

18 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Paracistic eximuses, it becomes extremely hard to keep up any channelled ability when these guys start to swarm.

Ya know.  I've been playing Warframe for so long.  And I'm just now realizing that infested spawn 5x more of those kind of guys compared to the other factions.

[Fallen_Echo]

41 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Ya know.  I've been playing Warframe for so long.  And I'm just now realizing that infested spawn 5x more of those kind of guys compared to the other factions.

Thats because every infested unit can spawn as paracistic eximus and the chargers what are the most common unit can only become sanguine or paracistic eximus. This makes it sure that every second infested eximus is paracistic.

[Fallen_Echo]

5 hours ago, MiraClena said:

That's a kinda unfair condition because you don't really need much commitment to start doing sortie with any warframe without using any ability. Going by your condition, if DE released a warframe with 0 ability and similar stat to other warframe, that is still a usable warframe and no balancing is needed.

I started playing 3 weeks ago and I can absolutely enter sortie with any warframe because you just don't need to use the ability, only the weapon/mod matter.

It still doesn't change the fact that Wukong is much below other warframe in terms of functionality.

Spot on, if they would remove the rank30 limitation from the sorties im sure we could finish it with rank1 frames too with the right weapons.

A frame to be useful either needs to strongly support the team or be able to go and finish high level areas on its own.

[DjKaplis]

Wukong is very much usable guys. Tank - best tank in game, cmon, defy with lot of duration. Problem is of course that enemy aggro doesn't quite work as in some other games so holding block with guardian derision doesn't quite make sense. As you would be doing only that.

But because he is so hard to kill if you take a very strong weapon with him he can deal quite a lot of damage to high level enemies as he doesn't really have to worry about getting shot. Search Summit Wukong void survival solo video if you don't believe.

But what many might say and I agree - he isn't very fun with basically only one useful / good ability... That's why we need his abilities revisited and made more synergysing with each oher.

[MiraClena]

20 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

Wukong is very much usable guys.

I think the problem here isn't about him being usable. Every warframe (even one with no ability) is usable with enough weapon/mods, the thing is he don't scale as good as other warframe given equipment of same value, and he is not better when you don't have much mods.

I'm not even sure if Defy is the best tank ability when all you need is multiple energy drain unit to completely shut this down. He don't last as long as other tank warframe to remove those units.

Also, what's the purpose of tanking damage anyway if you can completely mitigate them through other means.

Edited May 6, 2018 by MiraClena

[DjKaplis]

5 hours ago, MiraClena said:

I think the problem here isn't about him being usable. Every warframe (even one with no ability) is usable with enough weapon/mods, the thing is he don't scale as good as other warframe given equipment of same value, and he is not better when you don't have much mods.

I'm not even sure if Defy is the best tank ability when all you need is multiple energy drain unit to completely shut this down. He don't last as long as other tank warframe to remove those units.

Also, what's the purpose of tanking damage anyway if you can completely mitigate them through other means.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you haven't done high lvl content (300+) much or at least not with Wukong? High level content is exactly when he starts to shine. In terms of survivability Chroma, Rhino and even Nidus don't even come close. This can be quite useful in many situations.  You can get kills on infinitely high lvl enemies with covert lethality dagger. With all frames ofc. Just that not all survive if enemies hit you. So yea maybe not the best but for sure better than most against high lvls. (Sorties or onslaught isn't high lvl)

Well, you can see some videos on YouTube with Wukong against high lvl enemies if you are interested. Anyway I agree with OP that Wukong nuke build should stay because that gives more ways to play him so less boring. And abilities need improvements because relying only on one ability when playing him is not too good design.

[MiraClena]

3 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you haven't done high lvl content (300+) much or at least not with Wukong?

Yup, I never did that high level of mission, and I do agree that Wukong is definitely one of the better choice there.

I'm not really sure if this apply to most player as they can't even use *spoiler mode* yet.

[DeMonkey]

6 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you haven't done high lvl content (300+) much or at least not with Wukong? High level content is exactly when he starts to shine. In terms of survivability Chroma, Rhino and even Nidus don't even come close. This can be quite useful in many situations.  You can get kills on infinitely high lvl enemies with covert lethality dagger. With all frames ofc. Just that not all survive if enemies hit you. So yea maybe not the best but for sure better than most against high lvls. (Sorties or onslaught isn't high lvl)

Well, you can see some videos on YouTube with Wukong against high lvl enemies if you are interested. Anyway I agree with OP that Wukong nuke build should stay because that gives more ways to play him so less boring. And abilities need improvements because relying only on one ability when playing him is not too good design.

If any of this games content were balanced around level 300+ you'd have an argument.

Alas however Elite Onslaught is the highest relevant enemy level we are currently designed to fight, any argument taking endurance into account is utter madness.

[MickThejaguar]

12 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Wukong is very much usable guys. Tank - best tank in game, cmon, defy with lot of duration. Problem is of course that enemy aggro doesn't quite work as in some other games so holding block with guardian derision doesn't quite make sense. As you would be doing only that.

But because he is so hard to kill if you take a very strong weapon with him he can deal quite a lot of damage to high level enemies as he doesn't really have to worry about getting shot. Search Summit Wukong void survival solo video if you don't believe.

But what many might say and I agree - he isn't very fun with basically only one useful / good ability... That's why we need his abilities revisited and made more synergysing with each oher.

A good frame should have both multiple, fully functioning builds that each center around putting power into different abilities, and a cohesive kit that synergizes it's abilities well with each other. Now that Nukong is gone, the only builds that work are Defy/Primal Fury builds. Just to run the whole kit by you, Wukong has a 1st ability that will never be used, a 2nd ability that is his sole redeeming factor, a 3rd ability that has absolutely no place in his kit, and a 4th ability that gets out shined by any melee weapon that can be modded with a maiming strike/Blood Rush build (Or just Blood Rush in general). So out of 4 of his abilities, they only got one right. Wukong is in bad need of some buffs. I'd be happy if they nerfed Defy if it meant the rest of his kit could become functional without it.

[StabbyTentacles]

1 hour ago, MickThejaguar said:

Wukong is in a bad need of some buffs. I'd be happy if they nerfed Defy if it meant the rest of his kit could become functional without it.

I agree completely.👍

Even a deliberate remake.🤩

I also wouldn't mind a reasoned nerf to his Nukong build. Removing any fun/dynamic gameplay seems a little uncaring.😭

[DjKaplis]

Well, taking endurance into account isn't madness because many players enjoy doing that content. Since this new content with Onslaught is again not challenging enough, mission ends because you can't kill fast enough not because your frames can't survive anymore.

However I understand that you were talking about Onslaught before when you said that Wukong is not a good option there and I completely agree on that. Before with glaive nukes he was usable (not too powerful still because of energy usage and high chance to kill yourself). Now he indeed can't be considered among good picks for that game mode at all.

 

And I actually agree with you guys - nuke build could have been reined in by reducing it's power not completely destroyed. And Wukong really needs some attention, people have been asking for his abilities to be improved for years.

[(PSN)jtruong39]

I would rather have an empty Warframe slot than a “regular” Wukong without his glaive nuke build. He’s the most boring character out of them all but I did enjoy using the glaive nuke build with him. It was a BUILD, not a “game breaking” CHEAT. Now, there’s just absolutely no reason to use him and this sentiment is obviously shared across the community. Way to take the fun out of the community. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by (PS4)jtruong39
Addendum

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, (PS4)jtruong39 said:

I would rather have an empty Warframe slot than a “regular” Wukong without his glaive nuke build. He’s the most boring character out of them all but I did enjoy using the glaive nuke build with him. It was a BUILD, not a “game breaking” CHEAT. Now, there’s just absolutely no reason to use him and this sentiment is obviously shared across the community. Way to take the fun out of the community. 

Why would you Nekro this? There's nothing that can be added to this topic.