Is Threre Really any Point in Picking Light Side and Dark Side?

[Pizzarugi]

19 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

You're not understanding that this is not based on the western philosophy of good and evil. Yin and Yang represent Discipline and Passion - passion being the spirit, the emotion, the mind, and Discipline being the physical, the here-and-now, the body. 

Western concepts of virtue (those being Prudence, Courage, Temperence, Justice, Faith, Hope, and Charity) have no bearing on Warframe. Instead, the morality of Warframe is based on whether you follow earthly discipline or spiritual flame. 

That doesn't change what I said though, the sides have clearly been defined in previous quests that utilize this system, and it's jarring to see that changed in the Sacrifice. The dialogues and actions you make in it don't match what you've done prior in the same path, thus I'm convinced it's bugged.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[Aleksi134]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

I think all the dialogue in the Sacrifice is bugged, and it still bugs me since I finished it. The War Within clearly made the light side be the good and virtuous while the dark side be impulsive and radical. For example, you can choose the light side and say you held out hope when the adults broke through, tell Teshin to let the Elder Queen live despite everything she did, and destroy the kuva at the end. Those sound like merciful and virtuous traits for the light side.

And lest I forget: There's also the Glast Gambit quest. The light side once more showed mercy by curing the child of the virus. Up until the Sacrifice, there has been no deviation from the light and dark path in terms of outcome.

Sacrifice spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Suddenly, the Sacrifice rolls out, and the light path chooses wrath to fuel you, have Ordis replay the Lotus saying "the war without and the war within", and telling Ballas to squirm like the maggot he is. None of those sound virtuous nor merciful when compared to the War Within. I feel like the dialogue choices were swapped by accident.

I still chose them, because I'm a good boi, but I still feel like they're not appropriate to the path.

 

Yes because a white background on fire means "good".

[Kuettbullen]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

That doesn't change what I said though, the sides have clearly been defined in previous quests that utilize this system, and it's jarring to see that changed in the Sacrifice. The dialogues and actions you make in it don't match what you've done prior in the same path, thus I'm convinced it's bugged.

In traditional Yin and Yang, Yang (white) is associated with positivity, activity, and the sun. But it's also associated with strength, dominance and hardness (as in unbending and inflexible)
Yin (black) is associated with the moon, softness and passiveness. But also covertness, sinisterness and treachery.

With that in mind it's easy to think they got the choices wrong in the quest, but since Steve has confirmed it's more yin and yang rather then good and evil I think they nailed it.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Kuettbullen

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

I believe it will tie into an ultimatum that the Tenno are gonna have to decide about one day in the future. 

[Vanille]

It's just for immersion and RP (for now? who knows). Some people like to role play and want their characters to be good, bad or neutral. It also gives us some some dialog changes in cutscenes. And for those who don't care about the above, it's just a profile icon.

[(XBOX)Let Driscoll]

4 hours ago, Aleksi134 said:

Well they might give it a purpose. But for now it just means your operators personality essentially. And how helminth reacts to you changes based on this aswell.

Cool. Haven't seen that mentioned yet.

[(XBOX)Let Driscoll]

I don't know how it will affect the future but like some here have stated, it might just be your frame of mind. I lean more towards the darker side due to personal reasons and a cynical and irritable outlook on the rest of the world.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

(SPOILERS)

First post on the forums, Its a question that they have discussed where DESteve has said that they do want it to be meaningful but I think they havent found a way for it to be yet. He referenced another game(cant rememeber the game or the stream he discussed it) but its just how they want to impliment it.

Im still curious on how the Kuva decision at the end of the War With will play out it because it had absolutly no involvement in The Sacrifice....and its still something I want to know how its going to effect you....I drank it so it better have a role to play in the future.

[AJ5511]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Cram Duachim said:

Im still curious on how the Kuva decision at the end of the War With will play out it because it had absolutly no involvement in The Sacrifice....and its still something I want to know how its going to effect you....I drank it so it better have a role to play in the future.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, I'm also curious to see if DE has a plan for that, or if they just put it in to make the point clear of which path you choose in the game. Although it does not make sense as to why the people who drank the kuva once are using it on their mods instead of drinking it and using it to be more powerful. If they are to introduce options for players in the game, following a style similar to the nemesis system in Shadow of War would actually give your choices consequences.

[Zyneris]

4 hours ago, Blatantfool said:

DE respects that not all players prefer the same flavors of ice cream so they offer us three instead. It is just flavoring.

Oh god, I'm having flash backs of Mass Effect 3 ending, please NO! *drops to knees and begins to rock uncontrollably*

[Sitchrea]

3 minutes ago, AJ5511 said:

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, I'm also curious to see if DE has a plan for that, or if they just put it in to make the point clear of which path you choose in the game. Although it does not make sense as to why the people who drank the kuva once are using it on their mods instead of drinking it and using it to be more powerful. If they are to introduce options for players in the game, following a style similar to the nemesis system in Shadow of War would actually give your choices consequences.

According to dataminers, that's actually what they're planning to do.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

3 minutes ago, AJ5511 said:

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, I'm also curious to see if DE has a plan for that, or if they just put it in to make the point clear of which path you choose in the game. Although it does not make sense as to why the people who drank the kuva once are using it on their mods instead of drinking it and using it to be more powerful. If they are to introduce options for players in the game, following a style similar to the nemesis system in Shadow of War would actually give your choices consequences.

Its something I really hope gets brought up again....I think its a great opporunity to make a choise have consequences and make choices matter more. Lets hope post sacrifice...this gets answered

[AJ5511]

4 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

According to dataminers, that's actually what they're planning to do.

Nice, let's hope they come through with this. The post has been up for long enough for DE to notice. Thank you guys for all the input so far 🙂

[(PSN)Thefirstsunbro]

its meant to be yin and yang. but what i dont understand is why they flipped it in TWW the light side (aka yang) was the calm and logical choice. but the dark side was the angry and emotional choice "they were like animals. so i hunted." unless im remembering this wrong 

[FlusteredFerret]

4 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

All these people calling middle indifference, it's acceptance, a balance of the two, not a lack of.

Gotta strive to be the balance momma Lotus wanted us to be 😛

I'm totally down with that. 

[Pizzarugi]

3 hours ago, Kuettbullen said:

With that in mind it's easy to think they got the choices wrong in the quest, but since Steve has confirmed it's more yin and yang rather then good and evil I think they nailed it.

I agree on the yin and yang aspect, but I disagree that they nailed it on this one.

Spoiler

Telling someone to squirm like the maggot that they are in the Sacrifice seems pretty opposite to saying you held out hope and avoided the bloodshed during the War Within. Both are very clear differences in mindset.

I'd expect you to tell him to squirm if you also believed the adults of Zariman had become nothing but beasts needing to be hunted down.

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[Beartornado]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)dgc2102 said:

its meant to be yin and yang. but what i dont understand is why they flipped it in TWW the light side (aka yang) was the calm and logical choice. but the dark side was the angry and emotional choice "they were like animals. so i hunted." unless im remembering this wrong 

Yang was not calm and logical in TWW. Holding out hope that someone can be saved in the desperate situation they were in is clearly an emotionally driven decision. The Yin choice was the logical one, even if your parents and the adults of the Zariman are innocent civilians who would not normally act the way they are, your survival comes first, and you will hunt them like the beasts they had become to preserve yourself. Putting yourself at risk because you want to believe they can be saved is undeniably illogical, and absolutely in line with emotional righteousness that Yang displays again in The Sacrifice.

In Sacrifice, Yang is caught up in the emotion of the moment, Ballas is a despicable maggot who did abhorrent things to Umbra and took space mom from you. He's getting what he deserved. Yin on the other hand recognizes that, while there is a bigger picture with finding space mom, he has broken the cycle of suffering that Ballas put Umbra through. You've just stabbed Ballas, there is no need for insult to injury. 

That is why in the Yang response Ballas clarifies he is not necessarily pulling all the strings (I am the stone, she is the hand), but in the Yin response he almost sounds endearing regarding our calm composure and treatment of Umbra (Now I know what she sees in you).

The whole point of yin and yang is that it's not good and evil, everyone's missing the point that neither path guarantees any sort of moral superiority. It's merely a way of approaching situations, a method. That's why your alignment will be twisted back and forth if you choose actions based on whether or not you think it's the "good" response, because alignment isn't judging your "goodness", just how you choose to respond to a situation.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Beartornado

[Lawmonark]

8 hours ago, AJ5511 said:

In the end, all warframes are essentially good

If you call being a hired mercenary that kills any faction that has something we need, good.... then ok.

Warframes are not "good" nor are the Tenno.

 

To answer your question, no. It does not currently matter. Another reason it does not matter, the choices of "Good and bad" are bias and not correct.

Spoiler: 

Spoiler

It "The Sacrifice" the the "good" answers were the evil ones. While the "Evil" answers where the nice ones.  The options were Bias and not reflective of the question.  How can telling someone to "Squirm like the maggot they are" be nicer then saying "The cycle is now broken"?

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Krhymez

[OniDax]

34 minutes ago, Krhymez said:

If you call being a higher mercenary that kills any faction that has something we need, good.... then ok.

Warframes are not "good" nor are the Tenno.

 

To answer your question, no. It does not currently matter. Another reason it does not matter, the choices of "Good and bad" are bias and not correct.

Spoiler: 

  Hide contents

It "The Sacrifice" the the "good" answers were the evil ones. While the "Evil" answers where the nice ones.  The options were Bias and not reflective of the question.  How can telling someone to "Squirm like the maggot they are" be nicer then saying "The cycle is now broken"?

 

It's not about good vs evil, nice vs mean, just about different perspectives. That said, in TSD and TWW, the moon choices were the darker, more aggressive choices. In The Sacrifice, the sun choices were more aggressive. Some of them made sense (the first choices between Wrath, Acceptance, and Emptiness made sense to me, despite how aggressive the first choice was, as emptiness involves removing Umbra's last connection to humanity through his memory). But the other two choices didn't make sense given the last two quests, because the moon choice has previously been darker/colder. But in The Sacrifice, the second set of choices has the moon choice focusing on being the Lotus' child, and the third set has the Tenno talking about breaking the cycle. To contrast with other quests, in TWW, the second to last moon choice has you ordering Teshin to kill the Queens (basically making Teshin your servant in that moment). The final choice has you drinking the kuva that is said to give power and immortality. Those are darker choices. Most of the choices in this quest really don't match that at all.

[Streaky_Haddock]

I think the problem is people are having trouble grasping the consistent thread between a clearly binary morality system. People assume it means good and evil and they aren't told otherwise in-game. Some people in the thread are assuming it's an eastern style earthly/spiritual kinda thing, but that's not indicated at all in game.

I thought it was representing rejecting/embracing the void, but I couldn't tell you where the hell I got that notion from either.

I'm tempted to say 'answer the questions honestly or as your character would and that's all that matters' but then that begs the question; what even is the point of having a binary light/dark morality wheel.

[D3M1G0RG0N]

I have a feeling it will come into play in a future quest! If not, for now it's just a nice little badge to put on your profile to announce how edgy (or not) you are :)

[AJ5511]

2 hours ago, (PS4)dgc2102 said:

its meant to be yin and yang. but what i dont understand is why they flipped it in TWW the light side (aka yang) was the calm and logical choice. but the dark side was the angry and emotional choice "they were like animals. so i hunted." unless im remembering this wrong 

Honestly, that did not make sense to me either, and the dialogue which the operators put out are really just distant reminders of the side you picked.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I remember a GDC panel with the creator of Magic The Gather where he gave a retrospective on the lessons learned over 25 years of making magic cards... And one of the cornerstones of the whole talk was how when you design a system or mechanic in a game, you try to build somethjng that what your userbase will understand instinctively, based on our own cultures, experiences and so on.

Everyone understands Good and Evil. Light and Dark. Everyone understand that a flying creature cannot be reached by a non-flying creature that doesn't have ranged attacks or weapons. You don't have to explain for hours what a zombie does, there's a big, shared pop culture most people have that make them understand instinctively that it's a reanimated dead thing that will try to eat you.

Case in point, I feel the "Light/Dark" system worked as intended in all previous cinematic quests, and it worked totally differently in "The Sacrifice".

I also felt the options had been inverted by mistake, and was forced to choose dialogue options I didn't like because I wanted to stay "Dark" , even though the dialogue options that sounded cool and evil were "Light". In fact, I actually chose options I didn't like because I wanted to retain my dark alignment, that to me tells me the options were misplaced or wrong. Telling Ballas the circle was broken when I wanted to tell him to squirm like a worm because I wanted to stay Dark sucks.

I get the Yin and Yang thing... That said, I feel going against to commonly shared and understood concept of light and dark in a morality system is a mistake, exactly what the Magic the Gathering creator warned about when designing game mechanics. If Your game mechanic is obtuse , hard to understand and defies the common undertanding, people will either misunderstand it or consider it as broken. No use a fighting against a whole fanbase of people who grew up watching Star Wars and whose understanding of light and dark is rooted in occidental religion and philosophies.

Then again, can't stop DE from creating something called a "Zombie" and designing it like a Japanease Schoolgirl, just don't be surprised if people are surprised when the Zombie notices the sempai and wears a miniskirt.

Edited June 19, 2018 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Urlan]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

I remember a GDC panel with the creator of Magic The Gather where he gave a retrospective on the lessons learned over 25 years of making magic cards... And one of the cornerstones of the whole talk was how when you design a system or mechanic in a game, you try to build somethjng that what your userbase will understand instinctively, based on our own cultures, experiences and so on.

Everyone understands Good and Evil. Light and Dark. Everyone understand that a flying creature cannot be reached by a non-flying creature that doesn't have ranged attacks or weapons. You don't have to explain for hours what a zombie does, there's a big, shared pop culture most people have that make them understand instinctively that it's a reanimated dead thing that will try to eat you.

Case in point, I feel the "Light/Dark" system worked as intended in all previous cinematic quests, and it worked totally differently in "The Sacrifice".

I also felt the options had been inverted by mistake, and was forced to choose dialogue options I didn't like because I wanted to stay "Dark" , even though the dialogue options that sounded cool and evil were "Light". In fact, I actually chose options I didn't like because I wanted to retain my dark alignment, that to me tells me the options were misplaced or wrong. Telling Ballas the circle was broken when I wanted to tell him to squirm like a worm because I wanted to stay Dark sucks.

I get the Yin and Yang thing... That said, I feel going against to commonly shared and understood concept of light and dark in a morality system is a mistake, exactly what the Magic the Gathering creator warned about when designing game mechanics. If Your game mechanic is obtuse , hard to understand and defies the common undertanding, people will either misunderstand it or consider it as broken. No use a fighting against a whole fanbase of people who grew up watching Star Wars and whose understanding of light and dark is rooted in occidental religion and philosophies.

Then again, can't stop DE from creating something called a "Zombie" and designing it like a Japanease Schoolgirl, just don't be surprised if people are surprised when the Zombie notices the sempai and wears a miniskirt.

Very well said, that was my experience with the Quest as well, but I ended up insulting a man who was bleeding to death where before I was the one trying the 'good guy approach'. The only thing I can figure from the narrative is we are losing track of our compass or that it out of universe was a mistake. I would still like to keep my alignment option though if changed though, just those lines didn't belong in the already established Sun karma choices.

[SPplayer76]

If there ends up being no consequence or reward for these light dark decisions, then I'd call it a great morality system. I'm super put off by morality systems that have prizes because it means that there is a way to "win" the morality system, as well as ways to do it "wrong."