DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"

[ryamadeus]

The game is fantastic, I took a 3 year hiatus and recently came back after the Tenno-con announcement and I've had a lot of fun, bought the prime un-vaulting and I'm buying the prime access next week. Very excited. I'm still finishing all the quests and I just did The War Within last night and god damn was it good. I love everything about the lore of the game. It's insanely good. There is still a lot to go, but I'm afraid to get there because even though I have a lot of fun I can't help but ask every time I make a new frame or a weapon: "what's the point" I know the point is to farm, to farm more, but it feels somewhat empty and I'm afraid to get to a point in which I just don't feel like doing it anymore. 

I know this game isn't considered an MMO by a lot of people and I think even by the Devs, but it looks a lot like one or rather, feels a lot like one. I play WoW a lot and have played WoW for a long time, and while I'm on a break right now after raiding the entirety of the last expansion "Legion", i'm excited for the new one coming in 2 weeks. But what keeps WoW players going is the knowledge of there being a "raid" coming, so that motivates them to do the current raid, gear up, do mythic+ dungeons and gear up, obtain new stuff, new levels in their weapon or legendary items and get ready for the next raid. 

I really feel we need that in Warframe. Now I know there was Law of Retribution and it was removed, mostly because neither the players wanted to do it and because they didn't like it. But with a constant influx of small raids, it would motivate the veterans and high end players GREATLY to keep playing and playing, and to think the game has done anything but grow without them is impressive, I think with proper raids it would become one of the best games in the MMO market ever made. Without a doubt.

IMO, a good Warframe raid would need:

a) a unique, non-procedurally generated small map, with unique visuals.

b) gauntlet rooms that act as mini-bosses

c) at least 3 challenging bosses that are visually impressive, have an interesting "mechanic" and ideally big, like Lephantis. 

d) You'd need someone with a tanky-frame and a healing frame that can keep the bosses attention, while the other 6 people make sure they clear the waves of adds while doing damage to the boss itself. (For the aggro mechanic I'd have the "tank" hit a certain spot added in the boss that doesn't do damage, but "pisses" him off, so the Boss will stay on him at all times)

e) there need to be big, good rewards. Something like, maybe prime frame/weapon blueprints, a small scenario-quest given as a reward to obtain a really good-unique, maybe riven mod. And also a main quest that, at the end of it, it will give you maybe a big prime frame or weapon, cosmetic, you name it, but it require you to complete the raid 8 times, with a weekly lockout, so 2 months. 

 f) Since this would act as the absolute end-game, maybe have it only open to MR18+, maybe a certain amount of Focus acquired, star chart completed, etc. You name it. Point is, the player would've have to explore almost absolutely every aspect of the game before attempting this "challenging" end-game content.

I know I may seem entitled, but I'm sorry if I do so, I don't mean to, I just really love this game, but the thought of having something like this in the game makes me excited even though it doesn't exist. I think it would elevate the game to something never seen before, people would come back, newcomers will be even more excited and the game will grow, I'm sure. I know I'm a nobody-no name noob that thinks he knows it all, I don't, this was just my opinion after all. 

 

[FierceRadiance]

From your description, it sounds a lot like you're advocating for "World of Warframe".

Just saying...

[ryamadeus]

Just now, FierceRadiance said:

From your description, it sounds a lot like you're advocating for "World of Warframe".

Just saying...

Right, but I'm not asking for a big world or... like, quests in that big world. All I'm saying, the "holy-trinity" concept of MMO-RPG raids is a good concept, the idea of a group effort and contribution to defeat an enemy that is bigger and more powerful than you works well and it's not only in World of Warcraft. I mean destiny has some form of it, and nobody can deny that's probably the only good part of that game. And aside from the game-play aspect of "group effort", also the motivation is a big thing, the idea of "i'm doing this raid to prepare for the next one" and so on and so forth. That gives you an end-goal and I feel Warframe still needs that. There are goals in the game, you can pretty much do whatever you want, however you like, you can just dedicate yourself to fashion-frame and have a hell of a time, but for some others, an actual end-goal would motivate them greatly and would help the game grow even more. 

[Dreadwire]

Fashion frame is the end game

[LupisV0lk]

For there to be the end game that people clamour for, we'd need some massive balancing updates and then people would be mad when said end game posed a challenge.

[SnuggleBuckets]

An end goal is not ideal for free-to-play open-ended games, It's rather fortunate that the ongoing quests have struck so well with the format.
But what could help in lessening the impact of the daily grind, of running in place but feeling like you made no progress, would be some minor implementations of rogue-lite systems.
Not the brutal difficulty or one life system, but building upon the procedural level creation to create dynamic self-contained "dungeons" or missions, with more secrets, exploration, mini buffs, mini bosses, to really give you the feeling of having discrete "runs" that you can repeat, but feel like you did something more unique on a single run.
Currently there's the ingredients for it, but they are a bit vaguely implemented.

[FierceRadiance]

Not disagreeing with you, OP, in principal. But while WF used to be co-op, any more IMHO most missions are nothing more than 4 players Soloing together - there's very little in the way of co-op, like you describe. I think in WOW because of the culture of the game it's understood that you need a certain mix of roles in order to be successful. But in WF nowadays, everybody seems willing to kite the missions, kill only when they have to, grab the Sparklie reward and get the hell outta Dodge. Players leave teammates behind at elevators all the time, and some even let let teammates die rather than run back and rez them. WF is very much an "I got mine, you get yours" environment right now. So I don't know if the whole idea of forcing players who are used to running PUG missions as 'Solos-with-an-audience' (as it were), to set aside their own personal goals and work together, as they do in WOW, for the success of the mission would succeed in WF.

Edited July 28, 2018 by FierceRadiance

[ryamadeus]

1 minute ago, LupisV0lk said:

For there to be the end game that people clamour for, we'd need some massive balancing updates and then people would be mad when said end game posed a challenge.

Right, that's fair, there'd have to be a lot of balancing, but generally what I meant by challenging just content that requires group collaboration, that it would require a lot of new gear to solo or under-man. That's what I meant.

[DrakeWurrum]

Well, I do want to see end-game content, I have issues with your take on it, which does sound like just copy-pasta from WoW... My main beefs from your feedback is as follows:
 

27 minutes ago, ryamadeus said:

d) You'd need someone with a tanky-frame and a healing frame that can keep the bosses attention, while the other 6 people make sure they clear the waves of adds while doing damage to the boss itself. (For the aggro mechanic I'd have the "tank" hit a certain spot added in the boss that doesn't do damage, but "pisses" him off, so the Boss will stay on him at all times)

No thanks to this. I'd rather have strategic objectives that push teams to work together (or split up) based on objectives we already see in the game, with the kind of group-play that is already encouraged, allowing the normal solar map to actually train players for the end-game.
Also, the holy trinity crap gets honestly VERY droll and is way over-used.

27 minutes ago, ryamadeus said:

e) there need to be big, good rewards. Something like, maybe prime frame/weapon blueprints, a small scenario-quest given as a reward to obtain a really good-unique, maybe riven mod. And also a main quest that, at the end of it, it will give you maybe a big prime frame or weapon, cosmetic, you name it, but it require you to complete the raid 8 times, with a weekly lockout, so 2 months.

No to all of this. I do not want the game to have a gear treadmill that forces old content to be obsolete. Power creep is absolutely BAD for content in my book.

The only reward system that will ever work for Warframe are cosmetic rewards (skins, sigils, orbiter/dojo decorations, armor sets, operater suits, etc) that exclusively come from the end-game content. This is what creates incentive, so long as the cosmetics look good. The reward system also shouldn't be RNG loot drops, but come from a merchant who sells the goods in return for some sort of standing or unique resource that's rewarded specifically by the end-game content. This standing or resource should be universal across all forms of end-game content, allowing players to hoard it if there ends up being cosmetic rewards that don't appeal to them.
The only non-cosmetic rewards I would find acceptable are: pre-built versions of Forma, Orokin Catalysts/Reactors, Exilus Adapters, Ayatan Sculptures, and perhaps even more rare resources (Orokin Cells, Argon Crystals, Mutagen Samples, etc) - then people who don't "have everything" can still get something out of without power creep.
It would be even better if the content is cycled/changed regularly, like every 2 months as you say, so that these rewards become limited-time-only, allowing for them to feel even more special to those who did get them.

Also, the end-game content should have absolutely NO bearing on the game lore. It should be considered optional content that players aren't required to complete in order to experience the game story. This is one of my biggest beefs with MMORPGs.

Final note for this point: I do not want weekly lockout, "Let's meet 10 hours a week, clan!" content. Not one bit. Warframe is a casual game, and the end-game content, even if it's aimed at "hardcore" veteran players, needs to account for that. At the most, any kind of end-game content should be 1 hour runs or shorter, cut up into 10-20 minute mission/objective segments.

Edited July 28, 2018 by DrakeWurrum

[Legion-Shields]

...

Edited July 28, 2018 by Legion-Shields

[Dragoncroac]

I played WoW some years ago. What you say about warframe was what i think from wow. Just farm items to farm more items to be able to farm another item. The diference (for me) it's that if you level up a tanky and you wanna play a healer, you need to level another character. You last many hours doing that on wow and less than 1 hour on warframe.

For your raid sugestion, you are just saying that you want wow raids on warframe, but there aren't the same rols as there are in wow. A tanky... How do you want to tank in warframe?. There are only one weapon with something similar to taunt to get the aggro, so... No, I don't think that would work.

The goal in warframe is the same as pokemon games: "Gotta Catch 'Em All". All weapons, warframes, sentinel, archwing... And raids don't gonna change it. Would be a nice addition, but they doesn't need to be wow raids. Actually railjack looks pretty cool as a "cooperative" game mode.

[DrakeWurrum]

21 minutes ago, Dragoncroac said:

Actually railjack looks pretty cool as a "cooperative" game mode.

I am desperately hoping they can effectively make it a good end-game co-op mode. It's clear they intend to make the Railjack missions strategically complex, relative to "defend this computer" or "Kill them all!"

Or at least it can be tuned up to more difficult design after going to Tau, if nothing else.

Edited July 28, 2018 by DrakeWurrum

[ryamadeus]

18 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Well, I do want to see end-game content, I have issues with your take on it, which does sound like just copy-pasta from WoW... My main beefs from your feedback is as follows:

Well, to be clear, the raid I'm describing, yes, it sounds a lot like World of Warcraft, but every MMORPG has raids that sound like this. The concept is the same, but how is implemented depends on the game and their own combat and mechanic systems.

Quote

No thanks to this. I'd rather have strategic objectives that push teams to work together (or split up) based on objectives we already see in the game, with the kind of group-play that is already encouraged, allowing the normal solar map to actually train players for the end-game.
Also, the holy trinity crap gets honestly VERY droll and is way over-used.

Strategic objectives and splitting up: that's the idea. But you need bosses to make a trial or raid feel like a raid. The point of a raid is to obtain the treasures inside a fortress and is guarded by dangerous and powerful enemies. The reason why raid is group content is because these enemies are bigger and have a higher level than you, the holy trinity is not overused, it's literally how people ovecome conflict and/or challenges in the real world, but instead of a tank, a DPS or a healer, you have a team of people with different knowledge collaborating so they can solve those challenges from different ends. One provides support while others directly attack the conflict. It's a concept that transcends MMOs, it can't be overused. 

Quote

No to all of this. I do not want the game to have a gear treadmill that forces old content to be obsolete. Power creep is absolutely BAD for content in my book.

We already have power-creep though. And as far as I know, old content can't be made obsolete due to alerts, BUT, I know that a week into the game, half way thorough the star chart I was already ignoring most of the alerts that happened before phobos, unless they had endo. Content is going to be avoided by players with more playtime naturally, it's nearly impossible to create organic-immortal content to be fair, although DE have made a great job in that regard. 

Quote

The only reward system that will ever work for Warframe are cosmetic rewards (skins, sigils, orbiter/dojo decorations, armor sets, operater suits, etc) that exclusively come from the end-game content. This is what creates incentive, so long as the cosmetics look good. The reward system also shouldn't be RNG loot drops, but come from a merchant who sells the goods in return for some sort of standing or unique resource that's rewarded specifically by the end-game content. This standing or resource should be universal across all forms of end-game content, allowing players to hoard it if there ends up being cosmetic rewards that don't appeal to them.

Cosmetics are good rewards I agree, but the point of making proper raids would be defeated if they only give cosmetics, since the point is to motivate players to "keep going" because there is going to be something else in the future. 

Quote

The only non-cosmetic rewards I would find acceptable are: pre-built versions of Forma, Orokin Catalysts/Reactors, Exilus Adapters, Ayatan Sculptures, and perhaps even more rare resources (Orokin Cells, Argon Crystals, Mutagen Samples, etc) - then people who don't "have everything" can still get something out of without power creep.
It would be even better if the content is cycled/changed regularly, like every 2 months as you say, so that these rewards become limited-time-only, allowing for them to feel even more special to those who did get them

This is good, I agree, those would be great enough rewards.

Quote

Also, the end-game content should have absolutely NO bearing on the game lore. It should be considered optional content that players aren't required to complete in order to experience the game story. This is one of my biggest beefs with MMORPGs.

Well, I agree and disagree, with fear of making another WoW comparision, Blizzard has "LFR" so casual players can enjoy the game's main arc without having join a high-end guild. But, raids in Warframe wouldn't have to be THAT challenging, think something like the level 3 sortie but taking one step forward, you need potatos in your weapons and frames to survive and stuff like that, but it would be clearable by pugs, but group play with a guild should feel better and more satisfying. 

And even then, you don't need to have the main storyline in it, it could be syndicate storylines or something on the side, but having the raids tied to story would only enhance them. 

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Final note for this point: I do not want weekly lockout, "Let's meet 10 hours a week, clan!" content. Not one bit. Warframe is a casual game, and the end-game content, even if it's aimed at "hardcore" veteran players, needs to account for that. At the most, any kind of end-game content should be 1 hour runs or shorter, cut up into 10-20 minute mission/objective segments.

I agree, the raids shouldn't take longer than 35 minutes to complete, and not much longer than an hour the first time; but the weekly lockout mostly means that, since the rewards were to be good, you can't farm them forever since you will make them obsolete very quick and new players would struggle to find people to do them with. 

[DrakeWurrum]

14 minutes ago, ryamadeus said:

Strategic objectives and splitting up: that's the idea. But you need bosses to make a trial or raid feel like a raid. The point of a raid is to obtain the treasures inside a fortress and is guarded by dangerous and powerful enemies. The reason why raid is group content is because these enemies are bigger and have a higher level than you, the holy trinity is not overused, it's literally how people ovecome conflict and/or challenges in the real world, but instead of a tank, a DPS or a healer, you have a team of people with different knowledge collaborating so they can solve those challenges from different ends. One provides support while others directly attack the conflict. It's a concept that transcends MMOs, it can't be overused.

With the way Warframe is designed, however, group content would not call for the Holy Trinity in order to make group play work.

Take a look at how the Eidolon meta worked out for "roles" - people typically use Volt and Chroma for specifically shooting out Synovia quickly, as well as generally dealing the damage for the group - BUT, the other group members are still capable of hitting really hard with the right weapons. Especially since Volt and Chroma boost damage for their allies, too.
Harrow is a big part of the "meta" for his 4th ability, to specifically counter the magnetic damage from when a Synovia is broken. But with the right Arcanes, this mechanic can also be completely trivialized (100% magnetic resist works!), and this is generally just so people don't have to hide in Void Form as much.
Trinity is usually brought in to help heal up the lures (though I think Oberon can heal them too?). Not sure if there's a way to prevent them from being damaged by the eidolons, unless you just need to be sure to pull them under the shield.

So, while there are indeed "support" roles in the main meta, that's just because of how the eidolon fight was designed, and one way players decided on countering those specific mechanics for speedruns. Not because the group needs support frames to keep from dying. (note: everybody has access to gear restores, and enemies often drop red/blue orbs)

It wouldn't be tough to build a 4-man group with no healing frames and still have an interesting boss-fight encounter in other content. Warframe co-op play could instead be objective-focused. Maybe the group needs to split up. Have somebody go hack some consoles while the rest run through a gauntlet (and even use those consoles to provide assistance to the rest of the group from a distance, like opening doors, wiping out the especially tough rooms, etc). Maybe you have to defend multiple objectives at once, too far away to just run back and forth between them (without specifically using Volt or Nova, for example). The possibilities in Warframe do not have to be limited by the age-old Trinity, as this isn't a standard RPG.

Typically when content does call for specific frames or specialties, it's something like needing a Snow Globe to help defend an objective, or needing good CC on eximus units so the group doesn't get melted by one crazy-strong bombard, or using the Volt shield to help block damage while rezzing a team-mate. Too many studios fail to be creative in content design and just use the tried-and-true.

DE doesn't do tried-and-true.

Edited July 28, 2018 by DrakeWurrum

[ryamadeus]

15 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

With the way Warframe is designed, however, group content would not call for the Holy Trinity in order to make group play work.

Take a look at how the Eidolon meta worked out for "roles" - people typically use Volt and Chroma for specifically shooting out Synovia quickly, as well as generally dealing the damage for the group - BUT, the other group members are still capable of hitting really hard with the right weapons. Especially since Volt and Chroma boost damage for their allies, too.
Harrow is a big part of the "meta" for his 4th ability, to specifically counter the magnetic damage from when a Synovia is broken. But with the right Arcanes, this mechanic can also be completely trivialized (100% magnetic resist works!), and this is generally just so people don't have to hide in Void Form as much.
Trinity is usually brought in to help heal up the lures (though I think Oberon can heal them too?). Not sure if there's a way to prevent them from being damaged by the eidolons, unless you just need to be sure to pull them under the shield.

So, while there are indeed "support" roles in the main meta, that's just because of how the eidolon fight was designed, and one way players decided on countering those specific mechanics for speedruns. Not because the group needs support frames to keep from dying. (note: everybody has access to gear restores, and enemies often drop red/blue orbs)

It wouldn't be tough to build a 4-man group with no healing frames and still have an interesting boss-fight encounter in other content. Warframe co-op play could instead be objective-focused. Maybe the group needs to split up. Have somebody go hack some consoles while the rest run through a gauntlet (and even use those consoles to provide assistance to the rest of the group from a distance, like opening doors, wiping out the especially tough rooms, etc). Maybe you have to defend multiple objectives at once, too far away to just run back and forth between them (without specifically using Volt or Nova, for example). The possibilities in Warframe do not have to be limited by the age-old Trinity, as this isn't a standard RPG.

Typically when content does call for specific frames or specialties, it's something like needing a Snow Globe to help defend an objective, or needing good CC on eximus units so the group doesn't get melted by one crazy-strong bombard, or using the Volt shield to help block damage while rezzing a team-mate. Too many studios fail to be creative in content design and just use the tried-and-true.

DE doesn't do tried-and-true.

You're right, it shouldn't need to be limited to the trinity since Warframe is different and something a lot more interesting could done in that regard, and if they weren't a lot of balancing would have to be done and that would create a lot of headaches not only for the devs but to the players as well.

What you say though, is completely true, but I still believe that there should be 2 or 3 bosses in those trials, that while don't require a healer or support, at least provide a challenge, maybe a mechanic that if done wrong penalizes your damage or having to parkour while shooting at it, who knows, I'm no expert in this and maybe I just can't think of anything other than WoW when it comes to raids, but at least we agree that raids in this game would be a fantastic thing to have and a great end-goal to look forward to. I mean, the motivation could literally just be the requirement to enter: you require a certain amount of mastery rank or maybe a key given by the previous raid that drop in equal fragments and take 8 weeks to obtain and that's why people would do it and look forward to the next one, while the bosses and completion of the raid drops Forma, Catalysts, maybe a prime weapon blueprint and cosmetics. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by ryamadeus

[aswitz87]

Wouldn't they need to actually finish the game before working on actual endgame?

Game isn't done yet.  Still story to tell.

[DrakeWurrum]

14 minutes ago, aswitz87 said:

Wouldn't they need to actually finish the game before working on actual endgame?

Game isn't done yet.  Still story to tell.

 Endgame doesn't have to be connected to the story. Endgame just implies it's what you do at the "end" of progressing your character.

In the case of Warframe, since we're progressing our collection of equipment, it would be content designed for people with the best mods, maxed out frames and weapons with all the capacity they need, etc...

30 minutes ago, ryamadeus said:

You're right, it shouldn't need to be limited to the trinity since Warframe is different and something a lot more interesting could done in that regard, and if they weren't a lot of balancing would have to be done and that would create a lot of headaches not only for the devs but to the players as well.

What you say though, is completely true, but I still believe that there should be 2 or 3 bosses in those trials, that while don't require a healer or support, at least provide a challenge, maybe a mechanic that if done wrong penalizes your damage or having to parkour while shooting at it, who knows, I'm no expert in this and maybe I just can't think of anything other than WoW when it comes to raids, but at least we agree that raids in this game would be a fantastic thing to have and a great end-goal to look forward to. I mean, the motivation could literally just be the requirement to enter: you require a certain amount of mastery rank or maybe a key given by the previous raid that drop in equal fragments and take 8 weeks to obtain and that's why people would do it and look forward to the next one, while the bosses and completion of the raid drops Forma, Catalysts, maybe a prime weapon blueprint and cosmetics. 

I like what I've seen from DE's boss fights so far, to be honest, though the numbers on them make them trivial.

Not just eidolons. Look at Kela de Thaym. Tyl Regor. Lephantis (or alternatively, Plague Star). Ambulas. They can be pretty creative in mechanics design.

They're not too complex, mind you, but I think they could dial it up a notch if they put their mind to it and really surprise us.

Edited July 29, 2018 by DrakeWurrum

[GenthReborn]

You know what'd be cool? Especially with TNW coming? Open world Battles. Tenno signing into fireteams to grab objectives that effect the wider battle in real time. Launch a full frontal attack on one base to draw the enemies there while a smaller group of stealth frames break into the command center and take out the boss, a third group using Railjack to prevent enemy orbital drops/strikes

[ryamadeus]

10 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

 Endgame doesn't have to be connected to the story. Endgame just implies it's what you do at the "end" of progressing your character.

In the case of Warframe, since we're progressing our collection of equipment, it would be content designed for people with the best mods, maxed out frames and weapons with all the capacity they need, etc...

I like what I've seen from DE's boss fights so far, to be honest, though the numbers on them make them trivial.

Not just eidolons. Look at Kela de Thaym. Tyl Regor. Lephantis (or alternatively, Plague Star). Ambulas. They can be pretty creative in mechanics design.

They're not too complex, mind you, but I think they could dial it up a notch if they put their mind to it and really surprise us.

I agree, they don't nedto be too complex either, the point is to make something that is fun becauseit's challenging, but once you cross that line it becomes not fun at all. Think mythic difficulty in WoW, for example, last year in the raid Tomb of Sargeras, the last boss Mythic Kil'jaden has been the most nerfed boss in history. 

[(XBOX)BowlofTofu]

Sir, have you heard of the Laws of Retribution

[ryamadeus]

Yeah I did, I mentioned it really early on in my OP. 

[(PSN)RhinoCharging00]

The end goal is your awareness, acceptance, and then celebration of your Most High Lord and Saviour, Clem of Grineer.  

[Maggituete]

I feel like the old guildwars Underworld or Fissure of Woe styles might work, but not before balance changes, which would always be required for "endgame"

 

[Nitro747]

There is an endgame. Many of it, actually.

Speedrunning missions. Endurance runs. Eidolon Hunt. SPEEDRUNNING EIDOLON HUNT.

And literally whatever else you can think of. Like in what way you can beat that lvl 100 enhanced elemental damage Sargas Ruk boss fight solo without dying once.

Making bad weapons be endgame viable

And, of course, Fashionframe and Ikeaframe

[Felsagger]

 

 

Do you know which is the goal of Warframe and why is so good? Because the goal of Warframe is to have FUN with other people around the globe.

 

Is there any other better goal?  

Edited July 29, 2018 by Felsagger