Sortie slowly becoming trivial

[RX-3DR]

2 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

The objective is to provide an environment where you need to plan ahead and have an answer ready for the combination of modifiers and factions.

For example, imagine an Eximus Stronghold + Elemental Enhancement conbination. Now your Volt is unable to damage any Alloy armoured enemy and your Saryin cannot deal damage through Proto shielding. That's a problem, you need a solution. 

But that wasn't what i meant at all, I'm not advocating for no-abilities or total nullifying scenarios. 

Also, I think Eidolon meta is way more interesting than any other current meta. There are a LOT more setups there. Lemme run you through frames that work:

I think not. Imagine if Nightmare Sorties were to exist, and the enemies were lv 150-225-300 and each mission had a pool of 2 modifiers taken from both the Sortie pool and the Nightmare pool. And imagine Nightmare Sorties prevented usage of gear like ESO does.

While Limbo can make it hard to have fun in any kind of defence, what if it was on energy reduction + energy vampire?

Also again if you want to trivialise stuff you can do it at lv 50 and at lv 500 and nothing changes. But adding harder modifiers on top of harder enemies makes it harder to trivialise stuff, or at least makes it so that you have to rack your brain to come up with the best solution each time, which on its own would be a great thing. 

And again, people who cheese cheese at any levels. I'd really like to have a place where i can test non braindead cheese stuff. If people want to cheese it mroe power to them, but a proper set of condition and missions would make it a lot harder to just sneeze your way through it with a random meta cheese setup you copy pasted from a youtube video. 

That said in an imaginary word where Nightmare Sortie exist, something that locks into the choice of frame and weapons you make at the beginning (only for those 3 sorties mind) would be a good way to have you properly plan ahead and think about what to bring and what to do.

While i agree that pleasing EVERYONE is impossible, there are imo many ways to please the majority of people. 

Just going to highlight a few quotes which I find to be particularly outstanding.

Imposing Restrictions without Restrictions

There is a very glaring contradiction here in regards to no-abilities/Nullification when you're going to praise Eidolon meta and virtually no-Energy mode with Energy Reduction + Energy Vampire mode. While it isn't blanketing the entire map within a Nullifier's bubble, it is still selective nullification.

In the case of Eidolon meta, it has completely devalued all CC/AOE abilities in favor of damage buffs, status immunity and damage negation. While you might be able to argue that Vauban is still usable, he is functionally a blank slate at that point because his abilities have been completely devalued. In the case of Energy Reduction + Energy Vampire mode. This is basically just saying 0 Energy mode which, sure, you technically aren't restricted from using abilities, but functionally, it is as good as disabling all Abilities that cost more than the value of an energy source.

Difficulty can be easily achieved by imposing a lot of restrictions but you are sitting on both sides of the fence here on the subject. You clearly don't want the game to just go "GUNS ONLY, REMOVE ALL ABILITIES", but at the same time, you're supporting the idea of basically functionally disabling all abilities. This is one of the reasons why a satisfactory solution is never achieved, people who constantly say they want more difficult content usually bounce back on decisions made to limit the players so that other changes can actually come to fruition. This has been discussed quite a lot recently when someone brought up the topic of smarter AI. Smarter AI itself is not worth anything if we leave the game in its current state because they would never get the opportunity for it to bear fruits in 90% of games.

The Eximus + Elemental Enhancement Scenario 

This is quite a pointless scenario because only prevents one method of cheesing the game but still allows for all its difficulty to be removed. A large-radial disable skill would still work perfectly fine, resulting in both conditions being nothing more than just being extra Affinity and extra EHP for the enemies. This has always been the big problem with difficulty which yourself admit, that people will cheese the game regardless of levels. The game is only harder if you're a person who only has a hammer in his toolbox. I don't think that many players are that deficient that they would continue using Saryn in that situation.

Somehow Targeting the Meta Without Solving the Meta Problem

Now onto the next, increasing enemy levels and adding extra conditions itself is not an indicator of difficulty by itself. You mentioned it yourself that if people want to trivialize things, it would happen at whatever level meaning the difficulty at the lower bracket is going to remain that low. Yes, it might be harder to trivialize things but that depends on exactly what the conditions are, which then goes into the problem I pointed out above, and that is that you are encroaching into the problem of ability nullification and removing functionality away from players. Ultimately, it would almost always be possible to trivialize things unless the restrictions are extremely harsh which means the difficult can be reduced to rock bottom.

To point out a really odd statement as well, the thing about a random cheese meta is that in almost every situation, it is more effective than a complicated strategy. Take for instance, no matter what mission it is, unless you are specifically preventing a Limbo from using Cataclysm and Stasis in a Mobile Defense mission, it will always end up as the copy paste meta that everyone will bring. In most cases, the most common one is the highest value for the lowest input, that's why they become the meta in the first place. So the assumption that any changes outside of just preventing that meta would somehow prevent people from copying the easiest shortcut to a problem is nothing more than an idealistic dream.

A good case example would be Condition Overload vs Maiming Strike. Unless you're specifically preventing or adjusting the mechanics of Maiming Strike and Spin Attacks, it would still be used to clear Extermination missions rapidly because it scales faster and it scales with crowds. The only stage condition that would prevent Maiming Strike from working in comparison to Condition Overload is if you had something very intrusive like Critical Negation, Combo Negation or No Sprinting, resulting in preventing Slide Attacks. End of the day, the most popular meta would often be unaffected.

On the topic of locking selections into a set of mission, while this is potentially a valuable idea, it is completed devalued by certain abilities. This would make sense in a lot of abilities are pulled down from what they currently do but without any fundamental changes, it would do little to actually affect the bottom of the difficulty scale. In a game where a single player can completely disable the map, completely wipe the map, or negate a large amount of damage, coordinated and well-balanced teams don't make as big of a difference as you are hoping. 

 

Ultimately, all of this is just pushing towards a meta-cheese gear check of pushing players to find the combination of easy-play meta to complete the mission with little effect in making the actual gameplay more engaging and challenging. In relation to a player, difficulty currently scales from being borderline impossible by bringing in the worst gear and mods to Mirror's Edge tutorial level with certain builds. Most of these changes would have almost no effect at the bottom but would severely impact people outside of the meta. 

I think there is a very big disconnect here on exactly how raising the levels would negatively impact players. Use Octavia without her permanent invisibility against level 100+ enemies and you would see the problem really quickly. Raising levels only boxes players further into relying on the easiest meta. The difference between a level 100 Heavy Gunner and a level 250 Heavy Gunner is just a matter of how many more bullets you need to kill it if you're permanently invisible or negating 99% of damage, but outside of those two cases, it just puts players in a spot where they either need to somehow avoid almost all damage which is realistically impossible, or fall in line with the meta. It goes way beyond the line of it being challenging to just being a pain in the ass.

I don't think your solution would even please the majority. Within a matter of weeks, it would come back that Nightmare Sorties are nothing more than filler for "real end-game" because all the core problems aren't being addressed without heavy restrictions. If you have heavy restrictions, it hurts player choices.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Flandyrll

[-SR-Nellielsg]

I came to realise, Loki, slova/limbo and mesa are my sortie frame.

[angias]

My original point was that sortie become more and more trivial, it has nothing to do with skill, the powercreep keep increasing.

This effect has slowed down because of the content draug.

The difference between sortie and the core game difficulty decrease, has the title say: more trivial.

I think it's a bad thing but if everyone is fine with this.

New content will surpass sortie in chalenge and sortie will become a glorified alert.

The reward from sortie will maybe be moved to a more chalenging activity.(or not)

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, angias said:

My original point was that sortie become more and more trivial, it has nothing to do with skill, the powercreep keep increasing.

This effect has slowed down because of the content draug.

The difference between sortie and the core game difficulty decrease, has the title say: more trivial.

I think it's a bad thing but if everyone is fine with this.

New content will surpass sortie in chalenge and sortie will become a glorified alert.

The reward from sortie will maybe be moved to a more chalenging activity.(or not)

So, the issue here is that you, and others who share your pov, are assuming that there AREN'T new players, lower-tier players, still discovering the game.  It is content that THEY will still enjoy, and the new players after them, and so on.

It's not like WF only has the initial playerbase from 5 years ago to please, ya know

 

 

[angias]

Il y a 2 heures, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu a dit :

So, the issue here is that you, and others who share your pov, are assuming that there AREN'T new players, lower-tier players, still discovering the game.  It is content that THEY will still enjoy, and the new players after them, and so on.

It's not like WF only has the initial playerbase from 5 years ago to please, ya know

 

 

You really think i do it for veteran?

Veteran don't play sortie.

It will be mainly beneficial for new player, pushing endgame reward into endgame content, they'll have to play longuer before unlocking easy mode.

This will give them more time to appreciate the game and they will more likely stay more than a few months.

For me and most elite, sortie will stay trivial.

I have brough the subject too early, sortie will fall out of endgame content in around a year.

Judge me if ya want, i think a dificult endgoal is good for new/mid-tier player.

Half of my playtime was spent helping newplayer Discover the game, believe me they need a motivation to stay more than a few month.

Edited August 3, 2018 by angias

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2018-08-03 at 4:17 PM, angias said:

You really think i do it for veteran?

Veteran don't play sortie.

It will be mainly beneficial for new player, pushing endgame reward into endgame content, they'll have to play longuer before unlocking easy mode.

This will give them more time to appreciate the game and they will more likely stay more than a few months.

For me and most elite, sortie will stay trivial.

I have brough the subject too early, sortie will fall out of endgame content in around a year.

Judge me if ya want, i think a dificult endgoal is good for new/mid-tier player.

Half of my playtime was spent helping newplayer Discover the game, believe me they need a motivation to stay more than a few month.

"me and most elite"...... ugh.  Really?  ...stay humble, bud.

And there already IS a difficult endgoal for new players:  Eidolons.  YOU might consider them trivial, but to new players, most of whom don't even know what an Operator IS yet, they're literally impossible to fight.  There's a REASON the PoE was put on Earth.   

New Player: "Man, I just kicked Vor's ass...this is such an easy game.  Oh, neat, next mission node is open wor- WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?!  OMG I CAN'T EVEN HURT IT!

*gets OHKO'd*

This is something to push them to continue down the questline and grow stronger.

People need to keep perspective.  Just because you're at the mountaintop doesn't mean it's not a hell of a climb for those who've yet to set foot on the base of it.

[angias]

Il y a 4 heures, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu a dit :

"me and most elite"...... ugh.  Really?  ...stay humble, bud.

And there already IS a difficult endgoal for new players:  Eidolons.  YOU might consider them trivial, but to new players, most of whom don't even know what an Operator IS yet, they're literally impossible to fight.  There's a REASON the PoE was put on Earth.   

New Player: "Man, I just kicked Vor's ass...this is such an easy game.  Oh, neat, next mission node is open wor- WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?!  OMG I CAN'T EVEN HURT IT!

*gets OHKO'd*

This is something to push them to continue down the questline and grow stronger.

People need to keep perspective.  Just because you're at the mountaintop doesn't mean it's not a hell of a climb for those who've yet to set foot on the base of it.

Well then.

At this point i don't care if sortie become mid-tier.

But sortie rewards are too valuable and will need to be moved to harder content when it come. (Figuring out why i sound like an elitist prick)

If my Idea of making sortie harder is so badly recieved there might be a point on wich i am biaised.

When they launched sortie were fricking hard for me, i have addapted to them way too quickly but this is my opinion of my own evolution has a player.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 hours ago, angias said:

Well then.

At this point i don't care if sortie become mid-tier.

But sortie rewards are too valuable and will need to be moved to harder content when it come. (Figuring out why i sound like an elitist prick)

If my Idea of making sortie harder is so badly recieved there might be a point on wich i am biaised.

When they launched sortie were fricking hard for me, i have addapted to them way too quickly but this is my opinion of my own evolution has a player.

Indeed, it is relative to each player, but key is they were hard when they started.  That's the same for most players when they first encounter them.

I don't think Sorties need to be harder....I think leaving them where they are as a "rung in the ladder", so to speak, will suffice, and encourage adding -new- higher tier content.  They've hinted that PoV will have higher level bosses, as they even mentioned that during their stream, "Rebecca isn't strong enough yet to handle that".   That's encouraging.


I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to see even harder challenges.  It absolutely would.  I just don't think it's fair, either, to treat current content as if it was -never- hard, or that just because we find it easy, it means it isn't hard for the majority of others, or newer players.

It'd be like "Juggling with 5 clubs is easy for me, and so I don't see why they still sell kits with 3 clubs in 'em.  Should be 5 by default."    It's not considering the relativity of it all.

Anyways, I'm sure many good things are yet to come, and I, for one, really look forward to them, while also still enjoying the current content 🙂

[GunRunnerX]

On 2018-08-02 at 5:28 PM, Flandyrll said:

Thank you for highlighting my point further as to why we should just leave the problem be. That line is the exact problem. Saying that the difficulty needs to be increased has about as much value as saying "give us something to do". What exactly is this something, and what happens when that something is something you don't like? Should we have 50% of enemies beyond a certain point be immune to all Warframe abilities because it is "difficult"? Difficulty is not a value you can just increase or decrease by pressing buttons.

Seriously? Go back and read how ridiculous you sound. A. This is not rocket science.  B. there are plenty of industry examples.  C. It's not my job, your job, or anyone on this forum's job, to design DE's content for them.  D.  Nothing is perfect, lets start with some content and decide after whether it's something "we don't like"

Not even entertaining the rest.  You proved my point, not the other way around.

[angias]

...you know....new and harder content will come, i just wanted sortie to stay above it...we can't nerf everything, so the easy fix is to beef sortie...

[Yasha-7HS]

I mean, there's no way to fix sorties unless DE reconsiders how they make their game "difficult" or address scaling so that level 300 enemies aren't die instantly, take damage forever. 

 

Regardless of that, Sorties have always been trivial. Their challenge was level only, and we had plenty of that before and after with endurance runs. Their reward table is limited by time and chance, so the reward aspect of Sorties means almost nothing. Yes, you can get a legendary core from Sorties, but how many people have? Yes, you can get riven mods from sorties, but that's three more levels of RNG and one level of grind. Endo and Kuva are overwhelmingly high on the table, boosters and BPs pollute it as well. 

I'm one of many people who get on and run Sortie out of habit so I can passively farm endo instead of running the incredibly annoying Arena. Most people have since Sortie season 1. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by ShichiseitenYasha

[GPrime96]

4 hours ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

I mean, there's no way to fix sorties unless DE reconsiders how they make their game "difficult" or address scaling so that level 300 enemies aren't die instantly, take damage forever. 

This is what i hate the most with this game's Enemy Scaling. In the low levels, they would be weaklings that's made out of Paper and at High - Very high levels, they would be One shotting, God - Like spongey enemies. There's no good balance in the scaling so far. 

[GPrime96]

4 hours ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

I mean, there's no way to fix sorties unless DE reconsiders how they make their game "difficult" or address scaling so that level 300 enemies aren't die instantly, take damage forever. 

This is what i hate the most with this game's Enemy Scaling. In the low levels, they would be weaklings that's made out of Paper and at High - Very high levels, they would be One shotting, God - Like spongey enemies. There's no good balance in the scaling so far. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 hours ago, GunRunnerX said:

Seriously? Go back and read how ridiculous you sound. A. This is not rocket science.  B. there are plenty of industry examples.  C. It's not my job, your job, or anyone on this forum's job, to design DE's content for them.  D.  Nothing is perfect, lets start with some content and decide after whether it's something "we don't like"

Not even entertaining the rest.  You proved my point, not the other way around.

...and yet, here we are...telling DE how to design their content.  >.>

[BDMblue]

Sorties were hard when you started them but once your up to par with mods and arcanes on top of that it’s just overkill.

 

the 20/% 600 armor for 20 second arcane makes all sorties but rad easy. Rads just hard because pritty much all frames osk all frames. Tho rads an insanely easy solo.

[Daffan]

On 2018-08-02 at 7:38 PM, KargorX said:

Talk about yourself. With the enemy levels displayed on Navigation, additional difficulty modifiers, and bosses -- I'm not even considering trying this. These are waaaaaaay out of my league, I'd need NASA to even see the door.

 

I haven't even played a "sortie" and even I know that's just wrong.

For both mission types, you need to GET there first. You know, the trash mobs on the way that start getting real difficult at level 30-40, and they are level 100 now?

For Spy missions, T3 seems to be more challenging than T2 already. I'm tripping alarms way more often, possibly because enemies see better than they used to. I can't imagine a level 100 Spy mission would just say the same as even a T3.

For Rescue missions, I seem to remember reading that the kill timer is started right away. While this means I don't have to try to avoid being seen, it also means I have to fight level 100 dudes right away, and I'm pretty sure they also upscale the wardens accordingly.... and those are already beefy even on normal levels.

>>>> Defense is way to easy cause we can just revive the dude.

Really? That must be a new game mode then. All the Defenses I've ever seen just go "game over" when the thing is destroyed. Considering the difficulty I had on Aten (after restarting it to get rid of Vor), which is "only" level 40-45, a level 100 would be very short.

Instead of adding more high level trash, they should consider making the game more interesting for people that don't already have all the uber-gear to one-shot level 500000 bosses  Go play your Elite Sanctuary -- it has "Elite" in the name, so all us noobs won't be there -- or whatever you guys do when you're not complaining about the game being too easy. 

If you have not done it, please don't assume everything. Because frankly, it's completely wrong what you have written.

 

 

[DerGreif2]

Am 29.7.2018 um 23:02 schrieb (PS4)vidare:

Sorties could be so much more, but some game modes don't really get harder, like spy and rescue. Those missions don't get harder by raising enemy level or sniper only.

Restrict to non stealth frames maybe?

Survival 10min is also way to easy due to the amount of lifesupport towers, remove them and it instantly would be more challenging. 

Defense is way to easy cause we can just revive the dude.

 

You don't have to overdue it. I would like a hard more for all mission. Like on earth hard mode the enemy's start at level 50 and from planet to planet they go higher. Or just eximus units like in some mission. I love the razor mission in the moment and not for the boss at the end. It's a shame that you can just run through... I wish there were more where that came from. I am MR 13 right now and have 200 hours and I just wish there was a little bit more of those flashy battles.

Edited August 9, 2018 by DerGreif2

[Sahansral]

Two years ago...

Group A: "Yeah rivens. We can do the hardest content with whatever weapon we want. Finally I can take a Lato to sorties and succeed."

Group B: "But rivens will not only empower weak weapons. It's a massive boost to all weapons, also the ones that are strong to begin with. Instead of leveling imbalances, it will trivialize most content."

Group A: "Shut up!"

 

Present:

Group C: "The hardest content has become boring. All the current content the game has to offer is trivial. Give us harder content!"

Group B: "But that won't solve anything. On the contrary, powercreep will narrow down the playable content of the game for you"

Group C: "Shut up!"

 

Soon:

Group A: "The new content forces us to use meta and there aren't enough viable choices for frames, weapons, playstyles. DE, don't limit us!"

Group B: "And so the cycle continues. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

Group A: "Shut up!"

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Sahansral

[angias]

il y a une heure, Sahansral a dit :

Two years ago...

Group A: "Yeah rivens. We can do the hardest content with whatever weapon we want. Finally I can take a Lato to sorties and succeed."

Group B: "But rivens will not only empower weak weapons. It's a massive boost to all weapons, also the ones that are strong to begin with. Instead of leveling imbalances, it will trivialize most content."

Group A: "Shut up!"

 

Present:

Group 😄 "The hardest content has become boring. All the current content the game has to offer is trivial. Give us harder content!"

Group B: "But that won't solve anything. On the contrary, powercreep will narrow down the playable content of the game for you"

Group 😄 "Shut up!"

 

Soon:

Group A: "The new content forces us to use meta and there aren't enough viable choices for frames, weapons, playstyles. DE, don't limit us!"

Group B: "And so the cycle continues. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

Group A: "Shut up!"

 

You know....the first mistake of DE is the broken scalling, the second one is having made damage 2.0 around it, the third one was to pushback damage 3.0

[Sahansral]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb angias:

You know....the first mistake of DE is the broken scalling, the second one is having made damage 2.0 around it, the third one was to pushback damage 3.0

I know.

Although Warframe is overall a great game, it saddens to look at the whole scaling/power creep/imbalance-aspect of it.

[Methanoid]

On 2018-07-29 at 6:22 PM, AJ5511 said:

Lol the problem is that I'm MR 9 XD

that doesnt really mean much of anything, you could be the lowest required MR which is 5 (i got 4 accounts, 1 of which is permanantly MR5 and does sorties np) and manage just fine, mods, mod ranks and forma'd stuff count for more than MR ever will.

Also OP is from 2013, how did sorties only get trivial now and not the instant they appeared, should have had plenty of op frames/gear already capable of facerolling sorties.

[angias]

il y a une heure, Methanoid a dit :

that doesnt really mean much of anything, you could be the lowest required MR which is 5 (i got 4 accounts, 1 of which is permanantly MR5 and does sorties np) and manage just fine, mods, mod ranks and forma'd stuff count for more than MR ever will.

Also OP is from 2013, how did sorties only get trivial now and not the instant they appeared, should have had plenty of op frames/gear already capable of facerolling sorties.

.......this is not new that it is trivial, my original post is about sortie becoming increasingly trivial.......

(Why is everyone assuming that i am an incompetent elitist)

[angias]

Why do i bring the subject now?

Fortuna. Coming after the plains, Fortuna will be most likely harder than it.

For those who had forgoten venus is the second planet in the starchart. that mean that a good portion of the new player will addapt to lvl 80, 30 hours before unlocking sortie.

The plains had an unexpected difficulty, but now we know.

One is the exception, two make the rule, especially if they are the 2 first.

Edited August 9, 2018 by angias

[Methanoid]

1 hour ago, angias said:

.......this is not new that it is trivial, my original post is about sortie becoming increasingly trivial.......

(Why is everyone assuming that i am an incompetent elitist)

I have said nothing of the kind, as time passes, ppl get more stuff, lvl more stuff, everything becomes more trivial, thats why i am surprised at your comment, not at some supposed incompetance but the fact that normal long term progression seems to have been overlooked as the main cause which should be expected.

[angias]

il y a 39 minutes, Methanoid a dit :

I have said nothing of the kind, as time passes, ppl get more stuff, lvl more stuff, everything becomes more trivial, thats why i am surprised at your comment, not at some supposed incompetance but the fact that normal long term progression seems to have been overlooked as the main cause which should be expected.

You are ignoring the fact that the early game content gets harder, there will be barely any difference between Fortuna and sortie.

When i speak about triviality i speak about the perspective of new player.

I don't have the slightest care about it being trivial for me, if i want it to be hard i'll make it hard.

Edited August 9, 2018 by angias