CrownOfShadows

Put together a visual to help stimulate the neurons: and also a possible example of how such a thing might work in practice as best I could

This would depend on the exact implementation, number of slots and number of competing mods. If hp mods are also included in the 'defense tree' then that expands the competition, or there are other functional systemic possibilities like I mentioned corruption and valence. It is a danger, I agree, but not an unmanageable one. It's a balance between too much competition and not enough competition. Jugulus, Amar & Carnis mods were mostly DOA because everyone's builds are trying to cram ability range, strength, efficiency, power in with shields, armor, hp, shield recharge (soon) energy economy, augments, etc. Minor mods just never stand a chance of getting into a build. You could fully archive 2/3 or 3/4 of all warframe mods and nobody would notice, or like 9/10 of all exilus mods. The idea is to provide space for these to compete, and to create that by lowering the competition. I suppose you could also divide mods into two categories and only allow 'specialty' mods in the specialized section, not sure, that might be good, might not be. You mentioned the bonuses, and actually I think the bonuses are the bigger problem. Even if the stats are muted in the specialized section, there's no way to mute the bonuses, so there could be bonus overload (depending on implementation). An inelegant solution would be to disable all bonuses in the extended trees, but idk if that's the best way to go about it. Maybe have certain slots in the trees that allow bonuses - an interesting idea actually - as that would prioritize a mod for its bonus rather than its main stats. Well, the idea is that we keep the diversity basically as it is, we just add trees for people to put all the other dozens of mods that are never used. Basically a way for minor mods to compete - not with the big boy mods, but more with each other.

I'm a fan of PvP in WF simply because it would solve DE's content drought problem. In the dead of night when I'm ready to die and I fire up WF I wish there was a mode to jump into and have a good time, but there's not, so I either blur myself into the tedium of a long survival or go play a game that understands activities. Despite all the nay-sayers, I think it can be done in WF to a high level, BUT I do very much doubt that DE as a company has the resolve to maintain a PvP system. They do require constant attention, balancing, and reward refreshes to stay alive. Based on all the content islands and conclave itself, even a spectacular PvP system would probably be abandoned and decay, sadly.

Well I'm not saying get rid of shards. And my proposal still includes an 'open unpartitioned versatile table' as it's core. Also I didn't specify where in the progression such a hypothetical mod specialization tree might occur, it could easily also be an end-game pursuit.

If you think about archon shards... they're basically doing the job mods were meant to. For example, does anybody actually use Natural Talent anymore? I doubt it, shards are doing that mod's job now. Increase ability power? Not mods anymore, now it's shards. Increase hp, armor, energy, shield? Shards, not mods. 1 blue armor shard is more armor than a maxed Steel Fiber (depending on the frame ofc since mod is % not flat). And you can put 5 of them in. And they can be tau. But it's not just shards, it's also arcanes. Arcane Blessing = 1200 hp. How many maxed Vitalities is that? Arcane Guardian is 900 armor... how many Steel Fibers is that? Now, I'm not saying that having 3 or 4 different systems that are all accomplishing the same thing is bad - in fact from a design standpoint I can imagine that it's useful - but I am saying that this really highlights how the mod system has failed us. I think that what the mod system really needs is to have a core section and specializations that branch off of it. What I mean by this is that there should be a core section where all mods compete with each other for premium space (ala 'build diversity'), and then a specialization section for each area, like defense area, an ability area, a resistance area, a utility area, etc. Within these specialized areas mods of the same type would compete with each other rather than with EVERY MOD IN THE GAME> For example, in the defense area, all the armor mods would compete with each other for the available space. So Steel Fiber, Armored Agility, Health Conversion, Gladiator Aegis, Mecha Pulse, Jugulus Carapace, Amar's Hatred, Carnis Carapace, etc would all compete for space in the defense tree (obviously probably not at full strength - the core section would be full strength and the side trees would have modifiers or something, or there could even be full strength, half strength, quarter strength sections, or sections that are 'corrupt' and pit mods against each other or 'valence' sections that hybridize mods [like FF7 materia ha] - just spitballing). The point is, it doesn't matter if we get new armor mods, new health mods, etc... if they're not better than the current top-tier they will never make it into any build. With a specialization system like this we can use mods, retain build diversity, and only introduce minor power creep, as well as create deep 'skill tree' type of builds on frames. What do you think?

Those things, or if they simply showed it on the candidate like they do the weapons. I really struggle to come up with a scenario where RNG is good. It's bad on relics, it's bad on boss drops (and was on archons), it's bad on lichs/sisters, it's bad everywhere and not just in WF, in every game I've ever played that relied on it. The only thing I can think of where it doesn't totally suck and where I don't mind it so much is on resource drops, but when you really need a resource (like say.... tellurium or scintillant) it becomes a bummer then too. The only time RNG works as a healthy mechanic is when no one cares anymore at all.

RNG is such a bad mechanic

Interesting! Valence fusion on steroids. If nothing else, this is a glorious idea for Infested Lich/Sister style weapons if that ever happens.

I actually think this is a great idea and have advocated for it before myself. The reason is that I believe it would Encourage people to set up certain weapons for certain factions Encourage people to use more weapons (instead of taking the Laetum or the Nukor on every mission for example, people would take other interesting secondaries like the Angstrum and the Dual Toxocyst incarnons) Open up the possibility to create enemies that are truly elemental, forcing players to bring anti-element configured weapons to deal with them Open up the possibility for more niche weapons, emphasizing them as tools for specific jobs rather than all trying to do the same thing (the Miter's anti-nullifier feature is a great example of this. Playing vs Corpus, I would carry that in my gun wheel for sure) I'll add that I would really appreciate a feature like this for amps

Hijack is probably the worst to solo. Even with Hildryn and Inaros, the problem isn't so much the drain as it is the enemies shooting the objective. Frames that eliminate or shut down the enemies are almost more valuable than having the tank for the drain, which is why Nova is nice she slows them and if they get too close they can be popped. A max lull build on Baruuk can also work okay, or if you're daring Limbo. Mesa is an option too - anything that can shut down the map and stop them from shooting. I have no idea if Hijack objectives operate the same as defense objectives - IIRC they don't, otherwise Gara would be fantastic for Hijack. Hijack needs an overhaul as a game mode imo.

Can we please get ability stats in our HUD? Current Ability Strength, Range, Duration, Efficiency. It's just some numbers. And armor too.

Like a lot of game modes, such as the Circuit or any endless mission, interception ESPECIALLY, one player leaving tends to start a cascade where everyone just tosses in the towel.

Well, we'll agree to disagree on that.

Well if you're trying to argue that 6 runs with a full squad of radiants is a fair and balanced grind for one item, then those stats are fine. I don't think that's very balanced though. The sheer amount of game time it takes to get 6 radiant relics and a squad with 6 radiant relics each also, plus all the void traces necessary to refine 6 radiant relics in the first place, it's just too tortuous of a grind for ONE item and a complete disrespect of player time.

While the physical model was made larger and more visible awhile back, the actual hit radius remains so small that you can actually physically pass through the model without capturing it. It shouldn't take half a dozen jumps to get the thing.

I'll second everything said here, I used Khora for every SP solo interception & defense & mobile defense too. Being able to cast 2 strangledomes makes her probably the best interception frame.

Yeah it's too rare. When you have a full squad running radiants for half a dozen missions and they still can't get it, there's a problem. It's a problem because of how much time it takes to: get the relics get the traces get the group run the missions Especially in the off-season. If we could please just increase the chance from 0.000000000001% to 0.01% (or better yet do some deep thinking about making the relic system feel better in general) I understand there's supposed to be and should be a grind associated with it, but at some point there's a line, unfair is unfair. To do all that work for nothing sucks and make me absolutely hate it.

Incarnon Mode

Hmm going to have to disagree with this. If Fire Blast and Terrify were on par with Tharros and Pillage I would 100% be using them in my builds. Like I mentioned earlier, I actually was using Terrify on a lot of frames in the beginning, but because of it's various problems was forced to replace it with Pillage or Tharros. If they make secondary advantages to armor strip abilities like we see with pillage and tharros, that also would help diversity. If I'm running a frame that loves shields, such as Mag, Pillage is the better option, because of the synergy. Whereas if I'm running a melee armor frame like Excal then Tharros is more desirable to me. So if they built in things for different play styles then they would be situationally preferred rather than just picking the overall best option. Like if there was an energy-focused armor strip that would be the obvious choice for energy hungry frames. To make this happen they would have to completely refactor the entire game and multiple frame kits. Considering how getting a fix for Hydroid was like pulling teeth, I have a hard time believing they would rebuild the kits of every warframe with an armor strip, much less refactor the entire damage and scaling system. Way way way way easier to just make new enemy types that have a different scaling mechanic than armor. And as long as it's predominantly tied to abilities, I actually think it's healthy in the current system, it breaks up the monotonous slaughter by requiring people to pay attention and react to heavily armored enemies instead of blindly bulldoze through everything.

Yup, still wishing for this or some similar solution, like making all augments exilus or making a helminth system for it, I don't understand why DE doesn't see the pain it creates. While a dedicated augment slot is mild power creep (and nothing at all compared to other ridiculous things they've done - bruh are they really using power creep as the excuse), something like making them all exilus would not be power creep because it keeps them in the build rather than expanding the build space. I can sorta understand saying no to a dedicated augment slot, people should start asking to make them all exilus as I think DE might see the reasonableness of that. (in before the "that's not what exilus slot is for" comment; yeah, but it's still a better use of it than it just being a PSF slot)

It is interesting! Thanks for sharing some of yours. Haha I was going to try that Wrathful Advance Titania for the lolz. Your enthusiasm over Nezha made me want to play him xD Wrathful advance sounds great for Valkyr though - I'll definitely be doing that one. Also seems like it should be good on Wukong too.

Well, I'm not sure about you, but every time I'm looking for an SP helminth it almost always ends up being an armor strip. Actually, let me manually go and inspect my inventory and get some hard facts, one sec.... Ok, here's a snapshot of how I look today: Banshee: Gloom, she already has an armor strip with her augment, which I use. Gloom is a crutch, but it's about the only thing that will keep her alive in the SP. Baruuk: Tharros, Pillage, Wrathful Advance - I use Tharros the most because I can rely on it as a heal if anything gets through. Citrine: Pillage. She shreds over time fine, but can struggle to melt big units fast enough, and I prefer Pillage over her Crystallize; more reliable and also good extra defense. Ember: already has fireblast. I use Nourish to help her energy. Equinox: Pillage & Gloom on my day builds, Tharros on my crazy fun night build. Excalibur: Tharros & Wrathful Advance Frost: don't play much Frost, I have an old Parasitic Armor build on him I was messing with but if I was to play him for something I'd update his helminth to work around Avalanche OG Gara: Gloom & Eclipse, don't play much Gara though, too painful keeping everything running. Garuda: don't play much Garuda outside of the Circuit, and is one of the rare frames which has no helminth for me as she feels pretty well-rounded. Gyre: Pillage, she really struggles vs armor and is still too squishy for my liking - Pillage solves both of those problems. Hildryn: already has Pillage, I have Elemental Ward for that melty build, and also the Rebuild Shields metamorphosis on my shield goddess build as an experiment. Inaros: Gloom & Blood Altar, because staying alive without shields is hard. If he could heal himself (no, desiccation doesn't do enough) I'd put an armor strip on him (Tharros) Ivara: Perspicacity Khora: Nourish (whip spam), Pillage (strip & safety). Kullervo: Tharros. The heal comes in clutch as his own heal is inconsistent and has a delay, he doesn't really need the armor strip, but it's handy. Mag: I mostly run Mag vanilla, but have two configs with helminth: Pillage and Gloom. Don't use the Gloom anymore. Mesa: Pillage, Blood Altar Mirage: Pillage, Tharros, Gloom. Don't use the Gloom anymore. Nekros: has Terrify. I have Blood Altar, Silence, Gloom, Ensnare and Dispensary builds for him. Nezha: I mostly run Nezha vanilla, but have a Pillage build on him Nyx: Gloom to stay alive & she already has an armor strip. Protea: Pillage, Terrify and Larva Saryn: Gloom, Nourish. Her multipliers mean she doesn't need an armor strip for anything under several hours. Sevagoth: Breach Surge Styanax: already has Tharros, but I have a Pillage build on him too Titania: Thermal Sunder, Gloom Trinity: Dispensary, only use her for Eidolons Valkyr: Tharros, Nourish Volt: Fire Walker, Gloom (don't use anymore), Tharros (been wanting to try the Terrify nuke build but haven't got around to it yet) Voruna: Nourish, Tharros Wisp: Resonator, Roar Wukong: Ensnare (I only use Wukong for Disruption) Xaku: already has the best armor strip, I have Gloom and Pull (for boxing) All the other frames not mentioned I don't play with any regularity. Now whenever someone shows real things like this on the forum it tends to just get criticized, so don't criticize what I do with my frames or why, especially if you aren't willing to show your own. The purpose of this is just to show how incredibly prevalent armor stripping really is (at least for me) when it comes to using helminth. Armor strip is the rule, not the exception. I'm not really trying to say the SP can't be played without armor strip, I'm just saying that when it comes to helminth choices it's almost always armor strip, and the content where that matters happens to be the SP. The only frames for me that don't have an armor strip helminth are the ones that either already have it, can't fit it (Inaros) or don't need it for their playstyle (Gara, Wisp, Titania, Ivara & Wukong) or need protection more than they need to strip armor. I'm just really tired of using Pillage and Tharros on everything. I know, I know "you don't have to do that" yeah yeah. It's just efficiency, like everything build-related it's about what works, many of these are the end result after messing around with a lot of dumb/memey helminths. we've had helminth for a long time now, and I've been using it from the start. After the fun is over, what do you put on that actually matters? Armor strip is just a fantastic tool. Please, just for variety, give us some more options. I don't think making Terrify work on eximus and acolytes (and demolysts) would be broken at all, I think it would barely make it competitive with Pillage and Tharros. There was general outcry about Terrify and Fire Blast not working like the other armor strips in the game when the armor strip rework happened, but DE never did anything. Why do you think that would be broken? EVERY other armor strip works, Terrify and Fire Blast just got inexplicably shafted and that's why they aren't in my builds. I don't really take armor strip to erase the mobs, I take it for the eximus and the other tough enemies - the exact things Terrify and Fire Blast don't work on. Like whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Good changes overall. RIP Combat Discipline.

With the additional 50% DR on shields I'm actually a little worried that they will be too powerful, but we'll see how it plays out.

Haha DUUUUDE, I did that, because there was no helminth back then. It was ROUGH. I ended up going full AP and winning with sandstorm if you can believe it, max range. Then I had the super, super dumb idea of farming out the cosmetics from that mission, thank god I had helminth for that but it was still very miserable. That mission needs a serious QoL pass.