Mag and Mag Prime need an EHP Boost

[DatDarkOne]

33 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So... what's your take on Volt?

The suggested stat tweaks bring Mag Prime up to Volt Prime's EHP, despite vanilla Mag having more EHP than vanilla Volt (and vanilla Volt could probably use an armor bump as well).

I don't really care for playing Volt.  I can't really narrow the reason down other than I like some other frames way more.  

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 2018-09-05 at 7:01 PM, Almagnus1 said:

You need to go read http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Shield#Overshield

Or let me quote that for you because you probably won't:

Quote

Overshield are extra shield points on top of the normal maximum shielding, which are acquired through the use of active shield restoration items or abilities that would restore shields beyond the Warframe's maximum shield capacity. Unlike normal shields, overshields do not regenerate, and instead stack on top of normal shielding, allowing even those with low maximum shield values to gain substantial shield defenses. Overshields have a maximum value of 1,200 regardless of source, and will remain for as long as the Warframe's shields do not drop to its normal maximum capacity. The player's shield counter changes from blue to purple while possessing overshields. Overshields can be obtained from:

Overshields don't do squat for damage reduction - so quit making stuff up to attempt to strengthen your argument.

I am assuming you didn't read my post or you have no concept of how Damage Reduction from Link/Blessing/Eclispe/Shatter Shield/Warding Thurible/Pacify...

Damage Reduction from these Abilities also apply to shield & Overshield values. 

✓ 75% Damage Reduction from Blessing applies to Shields, Overshields, Health(on top of the damage Mitigation from Armor), and Energy health (if Quick-Thinking or Gladiator Finesse are used. Energy health is also protected by armor stats).

That "bolsters" Shields by minimizing the amount of damage the Shields take due to the damage being reduced.

 Aka : Damage Reduction can be seen as 'Armor for Shields'. (It can also be seen as an additional Armor layer for normal Health & Armor values.)

 

To reiterate my earlier post: allowing Mag Polarize Shards to grant Damage Reduction would make her more tanky. 

The Overshields would act as a larger hit-point value being protected by the Damage Reduction of the Shards.

 

 

Why do you believe that ability Damage Reduction does not apply to Shields or Overshields??

@taiiat

Am I wrong in believeing ability damage reduction applies to Shields and Overshields?

 

[RealPandemonium]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Am I wrong in believeing ability damage reduction applies to Shields and Overshields?

DR is DR.  People just fetishize the armor stat for some reason, which makes them hate shields irrationally despite their reducing thousands and thousands of points of damage over the course of a mission.

[Andaius]

On 2018-09-02 at 6:24 PM, CaptainMeowth said:

What's EHP ?

Effective Hit points. It's basically the amount of damage a frame can take considering all it's defensive measures. (hp, shields, armor)

Edited September 7, 2018 by Andaius

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

I am assuming you didn't read my post or you have no concept of how Damage Reduction from Link/Blessing/Eclispe/Shatter Shield/Warding Thurible/Pacify...

Damage Reduction from these Abilities also apply to shield & Overshield values. 

✓ 75% Damage Reduction from Blessing applies to Shields, Overshields, Health(on top of the damage Mitigation from Armor), and Energy health (if Quick-Thinking or Gladiator Finesse are used. Energy health is also protected by armor stats).

That "bolsters" Shields by minimizing the amount of damage the Shields take due to the damage being reduced.

 Aka : Damage Reduction can be seen as 'Armor for Shields'. (It can also be seen as an additional Armor layer for normal Health & Armor values.)

 

To reiterate my earlier post: allowing Mag Polarize Shards to grant Damage Reduction would make her more tanky. 

The Overshields would act as a larger hit-point value being protected by the Damage Reduction of the Shards.

 

 

Why do you believe that ability Damage Reduction does not apply to Shields or Overshields??

@taiiat

Am I wrong in believeing ability damage reduction applies to Shields and Overshields?

 

Minor problem with all of those buffs... you're assuming that another frame is in the group with Mag.  That one assumption completely invalidates your entire position.

 

[taiiat]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Why do you believe that ability Damage Reduction does not apply to Shields or Overshields??

Am I wrong in believeing ability damage reduction applies to Shields and Overshields?

yes, ofcourse Damage Reduction applies to Shields. everything but Armor applies to Shields just the same as Health.
so yes, anybody saying that Shields can't get Damage Reduction is just wrong and should start actually playing the game.

and now to catch up on this because i dunno what's going on in here.....

 

- - - - - 

 

yes, for the 2359235269th time, Mag currently being the most complicated and mechanically deep Warframe in the game means Mag hasn't been a good Starter Warframe ever since the last rework Mag received.
the solution to that, is simply for Mag to not be a starter. pick a different Female Warframe to put there instead. could be Ember, honestly. fits the tickboxes that the game is currently ticking - Female, Caster.

 

anyways, i would agree that Toxin and Slash Status is a big Enemy of Mag. take some pick of adding an Ability feature that will protect Mag from these facets to some degree as a reasonable solution.
i've wondered about Mag being able to pick up Armor Shards as well, and them providing protection and them also being 'spent' into Magnetize. i'd be up for Armor Shards functioning sorta like Health Conversion in a way - immunity to Shield bypassing Damage while you have Armor Shards swirling on you, taking any Damage will make a Shard expire half a second later or something.

On 2018-09-04 at 4:54 AM, Almagnus1 said:

All they do is add on points.  To put it rather bluntly, those numbers are peanuts compared to what Inaros will do with an Umbral build sitting at 1055 armor and 7425 HP and no shields... giving 33537 EHP.

and in trade, instead of dealing super high Damage to any Enemy you please, is focused around just being unkillable and applying CC. and nothing else.

On 2018-09-04 at 4:54 AM, Almagnus1 said:

which is a mechanic shields lack and why you will never get a shielded character to have as much EHP as the Inaros example that I linked.

spreading misinformation as much as ever.
see also, my Trinity that regens effective 2350 Shields/sec because of Damage Reduction, and has 23,040 effective Shields and i don't use Overshields - could even have an effective 3312/sec regen if i used double Aegis.

On 2018-09-04 at 4:54 AM, Almagnus1 said:

shields are paper armor in high level content.

 

so is everything else. so Health sucks and is useless too, right? it actually is in that regard - there's no point in using any EHP Mods if you're going to face high Level Enemies because you'll get instantly Killed regardless.
so what's your actual point then?

On 2018-09-05 at 11:01 AM, Almagnus1 said:

and by increasing armor and health in the current system you will actually make Mag a bit tankier.

increasing raw Survivability Stats would make you have higher Survivability?
groundbreaking news.

On 2018-09-05 at 11:01 AM, Almagnus1 said:

forcing a player to bullet jump around

i mean.... are you saying that Players shouldn't be using Parkour?
the Movement System in the game that is the strongest form of Damage Reduction that exists?
...

15 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

that stuff isn't basically stunned indefinitely so in my book, Pull isn't a CC skill.

 

so CC has to be permanent to useful.
therefore that means......

Atlas, Banshee, Ember, Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Gara, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Khora, Limbo, Loki, Mesa, Mirage, Nekros, Nid.....
wait a second i'm going to list off every single Warframe in the game because there is no permanent effect in the game except for any form of Disarming.

yet again, mag has 2 baked in forms of CC (Crush is like half CC as it is natively) with Augments to let all 4 Abilities be CC.
'not infinite Duration' is a pretty terrible excuse.

15 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

which may also be because a tankier warframe is a bit more fun than a squishy one.

or because when you have few if any of the Ability modifying Mods, and also very little Energy, that increasing your raw EHP is basically your only form of progression for your Warframe so you take it because if nothing else you're harder to Kill even if you have almost no Mods and you can rarely use your Abilities.

 

- - - - - 

 

alright take care, bye.

[Almagnus1]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yes, ofcourse Damage Reduction applies to Shields. everything but Armor applies to Shields just the same as Health.
so yes, anybody saying that Shields can't get Damage Reduction is just wrong and should start actually playing the game.

and now to catch up on this because i dunno what's going on in here.....

 

- - - - - 

 

yes, for the 2359235269th time, Mag currently being the most complicated and mechanically deep Warframe in the game means Mag hasn't been a good Starter Warframe ever since the last rework Mag received.
the solution to that, is simply for Mag to not be a starter. pick a different Female Warframe to put there instead. could be Ember, honestly. fits the tickboxes that the game is currently ticking - Female, Caster.

 

anyways, i would agree that Toxin and Slash Status is a big Enemy of Mag. take some pick of adding an Ability feature that will protect Mag from these facets to some degree as a reasonable solution.
i've wondered about Mag being able to pick up Armor Shards as well, and them providing protection and them also being 'spent' into Magnetize. i'd be up for Armor Shards functioning sorta like Health Conversion in a way - immunity to Shield bypassing Damage while you have Armor Shards swirling on you, taking any Damage will make a Shard expire half a second later or something.

and in trade, instead of dealing super high Damage to any Enemy you please, is focused around just being unkillable and applying CC. and nothing else.

spreading misinformation as much as ever.
see also, my Trinity that regens effective 2350 Shields/sec because of Damage Reduction, and has 23,040 effective Shields and i don't use Overshields - could even have an effective 3312/sec regen if i used double Aegis.

 

so is everything else. so Health sucks and is useless too, right? it actually is in that regard - there's no point in using any EHP Mods if you're going to face high Level Enemies because you'll get instantly Killed regardless.
so what's your actual point then?

increasing raw Survivability Stats would make you have higher Survivability?
groundbreaking news.

i mean.... are you saying that Players shouldn't be using Parkour?
the Movement System in the game that is the strongest form of Damage Reduction that exists?
...

 

so CC has to be permanent to useful.
therefore that means......

Atlas, Banshee, Ember, Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Gara, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Khora, Limbo, Loki, Mesa, Mirage, Nekros, Nid.....
wait a second i'm going to list off every single Warframe in the game because there is no permanent effect in the game except for any form of Disarming.

yet again, mag has 2 baked in forms of CC (Crush is like half CC as it is natively) with Augments to let all 4 Abilities be CC.
'not infinite Duration' is a pretty terrible excuse.

or because when you have few if any of the Ability modifying Mods, and also very little Energy, that increasing your raw EHP is basically your only form of progression for your Warframe so you take it because if nothing else you're harder to Kill even if you have almost no Mods and you can rarely use your Abilities.

 

- - - - - 

 

alright take care, bye.

0/10 Please cherry pick again kthxbai

[(PSN)Bulvox1123]

Mag was my starter frame back in November and honestly my lack of understanding of game mechanics and mods made her worse than she actually was. Looking back there was no tutorial really just read wiki and watched YouTube beginner guides. But I never really had any issues with any start chart mission. And now she is by far one of my strongest frames. Just takes work and time as with most of the game. 

And can't find the post now but Trinity is not squishy even with just basic mods she can take more damage than most frames especially at levels new or casual players play at. 20 waves of hydron is not hard and no indication of anything. I'm MR20 and can take any rank 0 frame to level and get more kills than most , just means I'm a try hard and get bored standing. All frames vary and most depend on weapons to take the over the threshold or to another level .

Back to topic then I just don't see fixing mag for beginning players or star chart missions without making her OP. If and a big if they should just pick anew start frame and ember is just as squishy or worse than mag. 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by (PS4)Bulvox1123
Posted early

[Fallen_Echo]

So theres a lot of opposing comments here but i think i have a solution what could make everybody "happy".

Replace Mags passive with the following:

Barrier: Each cast converts 5% of the energy used into 1 stack of barrier energya. The barrier is capatable of blocking 1 single attack using up 20 stacks or 100 damage per stack.

(Imagine this as a faint outline on mags body what acts like a secondary healthbar capatable of defending against anything if its powerful enough)

[SenorClipClop]

On 2018-09-03 at 6:03 AM, Almagnus1 said:

after looking at the data that was provided on the dev stream a while ago, I'm wondering if increasing the base EHP of Mag (and Mag Prime) would help the newer players stick with Mag longer

A lack of popularity doesn't mean a frame is bad or in need of improvement. Mag is the least popular starter, but I feel like that's justified and pretty okay. Excal gets the win easy because he's Warframe's poster boy, and Volt is both extensively made videos of (Speed builds, Eidolon hunting etc) and has a similar kind of visceral high-action gameplay that Excal has. Mag sits as a kind of mage with an emphasis on CC and utility, and so naturally she's going to be a little less commonly picked. She's not as direct as the other starter frames.

I think players tend to drop Mag the quickest out of all the starters because out of the 3, she's the hardest to build for to bring out powerful potential. Excal can wipe missions with basic builds (or no build) and Volt does super well with a couple choice mods, but you need a bit of a mod library to have Mag be a contender (multiple Range or Duration mods, and some form of Energy economy, for example). Furthermore, I think Mag's design and gameplay are a little more complicated, and so newer players might not understand her as well. Any way you slice it, Mag is dope, and her lack of relative popularity doesn't really change that.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

Going with the trend of 3 YTers (LifeofRio, Summit, Grind Hard Squad) that suggest the healing specter for Mag for its DR...

There’s also Tavier Corsair, the sortie soloist, who installs 2 arcane guardians (armor) on Mag.

So there may be validity to this proposal if pros are adding DR to their builds. 

 

[Almagnus1]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

Going with the trend of 3 YTers (LifeofRio, Summit, Grind Hard Squad) that suggest the healing specter for Mag for its DR...

There’s also Tavier Corsair, the sortie soloist, who installs 2 arcane guardians (armor) on Mag.

So there may be validity to this proposal if pros are adding DR to their builds. 

 

Which is ironic considering that all I'm suggesting is bringing Mag Prime up to Volt Prime's armor/health/shield stat line and giving vanilla Mag an edge over vanilla Volt... and then all the hate because I'm trying to OP Mag >.>

At least I'm not taking the SJW bent here.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 2018-09-06 at 10:58 PM, Almagnus1 said:

Minor problem with all of those buffs... you're assuming that another frame is in the group with Mag.  That one assumption completely invalidates your entire position.

 

What?

Some of those DR abilities in my post only affect the caster and do not apply DR to Mag, so it would have no affect on Mag being paired with that frame in mission. The list of Damage Reduction Abilities that apply to full Shield & Health value was provided for reference.

 

My suggestion originated with the only change for Mag being instead of Shards adding to certain ability damage numbers, it would create Damage Resistance for Mag.

If the DR cap for Mag Shards was 95, as it is for Mesa  Shatter Shield or Mirage Eclispe (non-Augment), then Mag could apply 95% Damage Reduction to her entire shield & Health pool that would surpass and Armor stat boost but still fit the theme of bolstering through abilities.

Level 30 Mag with 450 normal Shields, 65 armor, and 300 health, would have a starting total effective health pool of  364 health plus the 450 Shields for 814 at the beginning of a mission.

Generating 1200 Overshields brings that to 2014, since total shields would be (1650).

 

TL; DR :

If Polarize had the same Base Damage Reduction of 50 as Mesa Shatter Shield does:

total effective health pool of Mag with Shards creating DR would be 1,608 (if only base 450 Shields, 300 health, 65 armor, 0 mods equipped) and 4,008 ( additional 1200 Overshields, normal 450 Shields, 300health, 65 armor).

 

Spoiler contains Mag solo health calculations with DR from Shards...if Shards was changed to provide Damage Reduction instead of the current extra ability damage.

 

Letting Shards 50% DR scale similar to Mesa's Shatter Shield with additive Power Strength would mean 45% Power strength would be needed to hit 95 DR cap.

At 95 DR Cap:

814 starting health would be 16,280 under Shard DR.

2014 health with One Shields would be 40,280.

*That 40k from just getting Powerstrength up surpasses the 33,537 Umbral Inaros. Though Inaros can bolster Armor and also have 50% DR stacked by using Sandstorm. The 50% DR alone would bolster that 33,537 effective health to 67,704.  Scarab Armor would boost Umbral Inaros to 61,875, if Umbral Inaros used Sandstorm while Scarab Armor was up that 50% Damage mitigation would make Total Effective health pool 123,750. 

(So while Mag with Shards DR and Overshields active would beat out a freshly spawned Umbral Inaros; as soon as Inaros uses Scarab Swarm or Sandstorm, he is still another tier ahead. When Umbral Inaros uses both abilities, as Mag would have had used 3&4 to get to maximum Effective Health pool, Umbral Inaros is still way higher in total effective health pool.)

 

That is Mag being by herself and making herself more tanky by bolstering her Shields with Damge Reduction through Shards from an ability. The 50% Damage Reduction at base 100% Powerstrength would make her pretty tanky without being dependent on mods. Having DR from Shards scale additively with Powerstrength would also make is so only a total of 145% Powerstrength would be needed to maximize Shard DR.

Damage Reduction applied to Shields & armor protected health is better than Damage mitigation from Armor only applying to Health.

For the Damage Reduction vs Armor comparison:

50% DR (proposed base Shards DR) is the equivalent damage mitigation of 300 Armor,  but DR applies to both Shield and Health.

At proposed Shards 95% DR Cap, you would need a staggering 5,700 armor (R.I.P. OG Chroma) to have the same 95% damage mitigation. 

For Mag whom is more of a Shields character more so than Health, Damage Reduction across the entire health pool is more fitting than just an Armor stat increase. That way the damage mitigation is applied to entire hit-point pool and not just health, as armor is.

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by (PS4)MrNishi

[(PSN)Chel-El]

It’s not that we are being haters, OP

But we can’t just casually drop or outright ignore other data like Crush overshields, Polarize on demand shield replenish, Mag’s cc capability as survivability, etc to boost the armor argument alone. 

This is not truthful rhetoric and you will not convince others to ignore their own understanding just to acquiesce to a buff. All must be taken into account. 

DR with the healing specter, if it was an innate Mag mechanic would be nice, so it won’t be locked from those who can’t purchase them or don’t even know about their use. Or an entirely new survivability altogether as seen in her overshields rework, that was a nice treat 

[Almagnus1]

3 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

My suggestion originated with the only change for Mag being instead of Shards adding to certain ability damage numbers, it would create Damage Resistance for Mag.

If the DR cap for Mag Shards was 95, as it is for Mesa  Shatter Shield or Mirage Eclispe (non-Augment), then Mag could apply 95% Damage Reduction to her entire shield & Health pool that would surpass and Armor stat boost but still fit the theme of bolstering through abilities.

Level 30 Mag with 450 normal Shields, 65 armor, and 300 health, would have a starting total effective health pool of  354 health plus the 450 Shields for 804 at the beginning of a mission.

Generating 1200 Overshields brings that to 2004, since total shields would be (1650).

That's part of the problem with Overshields, they look like they're really good in a vacuum, but if you factor in Vitality and Redirection (as I did earlier in the thread with this table with the R+V column😞

On 2018-09-03 at 10:35 PM, Almagnus1 said:

This is not a trivial EHP upgrade, as the numbers upthread are just the base values...  So why don't we look at the EHP calculations when Vitality, Redirection, and Steel Fiber are factored in?  (full spreadsheet is at https://1drv.ms/x/s!Agb7PTZ7Ja1FmMZYdf3XV16pB36EBQ )

Name	Base HP	Base Shields	Base Armor	Base EHP	R	SF	V	R+ SF	R+V	SF+V	R+SF+V
Mag	75	150	65	724	1384	778	1126	1438	1786	1258	1918
Mag Prime	100	150	65	815	1475	887	1351	1547	2011	1527	2187
Mag (Suggested)	100	150	65	815	1475	887	1351	1547	2011	1527	2187
Mag Prime (suggested)	100	150	100	850	1510	960	1437	1620	2097	1708	2368
Volt	100	150	15	765	1425	782	1227	1442	1887	1268	1928
Volt Prime	100	150	100	850	1510	960	1437	1620	2097	1708	2368
Excal	100	100	225	825	1265	1073	1595	1513	2035	2206	2646
Excal Umbra	100	100	300	900	1340	1230	1780	1670	2220	2594	3034

All that's really doing is increasing the EHP by about 50% at best.  The real problem lies in that 1650 shields + overshields not having any DR, which is why doing something like deleting the garbage passive and replacing it with something like "Mags armor applies to shields" would also greatly improve the EHP as suddenly Mags ability to inflate her HP with overshields becomes incredibly valuable compared to pretty lackluster as it is now.

I'm gonna skip out on the rest of your post as you're not fully understanding how I'm getting these EHP numbers, as Inaros's EHP is already calculating in the Scarab Armor (4), and armor scaling doesn't work the way you are trying to simplify it to be. You really need to go get the EHP calculator from https://github.com/cmd430/Warframe-EHP-Calculator/tree/master/Warframe EHP Calculator v2/bin/Debug and work with it to see what I mean.  Source code is also in that same repo so you can pull the math from it as well, and cross check it against the math that's on http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Shield and http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Health

[Almagnus1]

What I find funny is that the person who wrote this:

On 2018-09-05 at 9:32 PM, (PS4)Chel-El said:

I can’t take this topic srsly anymore, for the lack of imagination and interpretation. Bye 

Keeps posting in this thread....

Quote

But we can’t just casually drop or outright ignore other data like Crush overshields, Polarize on demand shield replenish, Mag’s cc capability as survivability, etc to boost the armor argument alone. 

And I keep pointing out (and you keep ignoring) that Overshields just add a single point of EHP and often have preconditions on them so unless you're Trinity (or playing hide and seek with the enemy) you generally aren't stacking them.  Mag's CC is a joke because it only last maybe 10 seconds at best and cannot be extended by duration.

The biggest problem with shields is the magnetic damage type which reduces shields by 75% when the status procs - which means if an Ancient Disruptors ( http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_Disruptor ) gets the drop on Mag, Mag is screwed.  Not to mention that certain doors in Grineer ships are the bane of Mag's existence, like the lakes out on the Plains. and may the Void help Mag players if DE decides to introduce another enemy with Magnetic damage.

Quote

DR with the healing specter, if it was an innate Mag mechanic would be nice, so it won’t be locked from those who can’t purchase them or don’t even know about their use. Or an entirely new survivability altogether as seen in her overshields rework, that was a nice treat 

Maybe the better question to ask is "why is this healing specter even necessary in the first place?"

Maybe it's because Mag Prime needs to have Volt Prime's EHP, and vanilla Mag needs an EHP boost?

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Almagnus1

[(PSN)Chel-El]

I dropped the data that favors your study as a good gesture to the topic. Don’t shoo me now because I call out on some bias, that’s biased lol 

[(PSN)Bulvox1123]

To say Mags CC is a joke is a joke right? All 4 off her abilities are cc and if you can't kill things fast enough or move enough to not die that's not mags lack of anything it's lack of experience or weapons. 

And DR is not required unless you plan on doing long endurance runs. Eventually every frame with get one shot in endurance. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

4 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's part of the problem with Overshields, they look like they're really good in a vacuum, but if you factor in Vitality and Redirection (as I did earlier in the thread with this table with the R+V column😞

All that's really doing is increasing the EHP by about 50% at best.  The real problem lies in that 1650 shields + overshields not having any DR, which is why doing something like deleting the garbage passive and replacing it with something like "Mags armor applies to shields" would also greatly improve the EHP as suddenly Mags ability to inflate her HP with overshields becomes incredibly valuable compared to pretty lackluster as it is now.

I'm gonna skip out on the rest of your post as you're not fully understanding how I'm getting these EHP numbers, as Inaros's EHP is already calculating in the Scarab Armor (4), and armor scaling doesn't work the way you are trying to simplify it to be. You really need to go get the EHP calculator from https://github.com/cmd430/Warframe-EHP-Calculator/tree/master/Warframe EHP Calculator v2/bin/Debug and work with it to see what I mean.  Source code is also in that same repo so you can pull the math from it as well, and cross check it against the math that's on http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Shield and http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Health

Giving Mag a passive that only allows "a type of Armor for Shields" would be a downgrade over changing Shards to provide a Universal DR that applies to both Shields and Armor protected Health.

Also the same reason an armor boost on Mag would be less of a Total Effective Health boost than a DR application to both her Shields and Health.

My whole argument is to have Shards be changed to apply DR rather than additional ability damage.

So why are you saying this:

4 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

The real problem lies in that 1650 shields + overshields not having any DR,

???

I have repeatedly said to apply DR with Shards, so that Mag's Shields would be bolstered along with her health pool. DR from Shards would also be better than Armor since DR is not bypassed by Bleed procs like Armor can be and thus is more reliable.

Are you seriously not reading my posts?

[Leqesai]

I actually like that some frames are squishy. It adds a small layer of difficulty to an otherwise ridiculously easy game. I have fallen asleep in missions before due to the general lack of challenge. 

 

Only real challenge here is the stupid weak point mechanic bosses have. That coupled with a few ohko moves that kill most frames outright. 

[Ahkilleez]

Mag should remain relatively squishy as a caster frame.  That said...she needs to be a more effective and efficient casting frame.

A couple of suggestions come to mind.  

#1 would be that Mag should have by far the largest energy pool.  It would make Quick Thinking viable at high levels, but it wouldn't get out of hand because QT drains energy so quickly as it is.  If Inaros can get upwards of 7k health I think we can give Mag a 1,100 or 1,500 energy pool.

#2 would be that polarize should wipe out Nullifier bubbles.  Even if the cost were raised it would become an invaluable asset against Corpus and Corrupted...especially at higher levels.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ahkilleez

[(PSN)Bulvox1123]

1500 energy?? I run without primed flow /flow with little issues just using zenurik and no arcane. Still not sure why mag is even up for debate other than yes more complicated than the other 2 starters but she is still top tier frame . 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 2018-09-07 at 1:04 PM, Almagnus1 said:

'm gonna skip out on the rest of your post as you're not fully understanding how I'm getting these EHP numbers, as Inaros's EHP is already calculating in the Scarab Armor (4), and armor scaling doesn't work the way you are trying to simplify it to be. You really need to go get the EHP calculator from https://github.com/cmd430/Warframe-EHP-Calculator/tree/master/Warframe EHP Calculator v2/bin/Debug and work with it to see what I mean.  Source code is also in that same repo so you can pull the math from it as well, and cross check it against the math that's on http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Shield and http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Health

From cross-reference wiki page

Damage Reduction= (Net Armor) ÷ (Net Armor +300)

Effective Health=(Nominal Health) ÷ (1−Damage Reduction)

Because normally shield have no Damage Reduction they would 1 minus 0 in denominator,  hence 1200 Overshields would only normally be 1200 hit point of effective health. 

With 95% DR from Shards, the denominator would be 1 - 0.95, which equals 0.05; 1200(Overshields) ÷ by 0.05 = 24,000

So adding 95% damage reduction to 1200 Overshields increases the Total effective health to an additional 24,000.

 

The math I used in the post follows the equations from what you referenced from wiki:

(Because global Damage Reduction applies to Total Effective health pool after armor calculation, due to it stacking. This you calculate health protected by armor for Total Effective Health pool, then add total shield value which (Inaros being exempt) : This gives Total effective health pool w/Shields before Global DR application. Then you take Total Effective Health w/Shields as numerator in Effective health calculation and denominator is 1 - Global Damage Reduction. Those calculations are correct.

 

To get the same 95% Global Damage Reduction ,which applies to both Shields and Health that is obtainable through abilities....you would need an armor value of 5700.

5700/6000 equals .95 or 95% Armor Damage Mitigation/Reduction

I stand by my statement that allowing Shards to grant Mag Damage Reduction is much better than giving Mag a flat base armor boost.

 

On 2018-09-07 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Level 30 Mag with 450 normal Shields, 65 armor, and 300 health, would have a starting total effective health pool of  364 health plus the 450 Shields for 814 at the beginning of a mission.

Generating 1200 Overshields brings that to 2014, since total shields would be (1650).

 

TL; DR :

If Polarize had the same Base Damage Reduction of 50 as Mesa Shatter Shield does:

total effective health pool of Mag with Shards creating DR would be 1,608 (if only base 450 Shields, 300 health, 65 armor, 0 mods equipped) and 4,008 ( additional 1200 Overshields, normal 450 Shields, 300health, 65 armor).

 

Spoiler contains Mag solo health calculations with DR from Shards...if Shards was changed to provide Damage Reduction instead of the current extra ability damage.

 

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Letting Shards 50% DR scale similar to Mesa's Shatter Shield with additive Power Strength would mean 45% Power strength would be needed to hit 95 DR cap.

At 95 DR Cap:

814 starting health would be 16,280 under Shard DR.

2014 health with One Shields would be 40,280.

*That 40k from just getting Powerstrength up surpasses the 33,537 Umbral Inaros. Though Inaros can bolster Armor and also have 50% DR stacked by using Sandstorm. The 50% DR alone would bolster that 33,537 effective health to 67,704.  Scarab Armor would boost Umbral Inaros to 61,875, if Umbral Inaros used Sandstorm while Scarab Armor was up that 50% Damage mitigation would make Total Effective health pool 123,750. 

(So while Mag with Shards DR and Overshields active would beat out a freshly spawned Umbral Inaros; as soon as Inaros uses Scarab Swarm or Sandstorm, he is still another tier ahead. When Umbral Inaros uses both abilities, as Mag would have had used 3&4 to get to maximum Effective Health pool, Umbral Inaros is still way higher in total effective health pool.)

 

That is Mag being by herself and making herself more tanky by bolstering her Shields with Damge Reduction through Shards from an ability. The 50% Damage Reduction at base 100% Powerstrength would make her pretty tanky without being dependent on mods. Having DR from Shards scale additively with Powerstrength would also make is so only a total of 145% Powerstrength would be needed to maximize Shard DR.

Damage Reduction applied to Shields & armor protected health is better than Damage mitigation from Armor only applying to Health.

For the Damage Reduction vs Armor comparison:

50% DR (proposed base Shards DR) is the equivalent damage mitigation of 300 Armor,  but DR applies to both Shield and Health.

At proposed Shards 95% DR Cap, you would need a staggering 5,700 armor (R.I.P. OG Chroma) to have the same 95% damage mitigation. 

For Mag whom is more of a Shields character more so than Health, Damage Reduction across the entire health pool is more fitting than just an Armor stat increase. That way the damage mitigation is applied to entire hit-point pool and not just health, as armor is.

Math check  when cross referencing wiki :

Initial 804 Total Effective Health w/Shields 

65 Armor/ 365 = 0.178 Armor Damage Reduction or 17.8%

300 health / (1 - 0.178) = 364

364 Effective Health + 450 Shield = 814

+ 1200 Overshields is 2014 total effective health w/Shields.