Mag and Mag Prime need an EHP Boost

[Almagnus1]

So spinning a thought off from another thread, but after looking at the data that was provided on the dev stream a while ago, I'm wondering if increasing the base EHP of Mag (and Mag Prime) would help the newer players stick with Mag longer.  What I'm thinking is:

• Mag's HP increases to 100, up from 75.  (Mag Prime's HP is 100)
• Mag Prime's Armor increases to 100, up from 65 (Mag's armor is 65).
• Mag and Mag Prime's shields stay the same at 150.

IMO Mag and Mag Prime are far too squishy, especially since Mag is supposed to be a starter frame.  Mag doesn't have a shield to hide behind (unlike Volt) and also doesn't have the EHP to shrug off most attacks like Excal.

[NinjaZeku]

4 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Mag doesn't have a shield to hide behind (unlike Volt)

Magnetize is kind of a shield.

Mag's got a variety of (damage and) CC abilities to help keep her safe,
she's just less of a "stand there and take it" kind of Frame compared to Excal / Volt.

[Almagnus1]

2 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Mag's got a variety of (damage and) CC abilities to help keep her safe,
she's just less of a "stand there and take it" kind of Frame compared to Excal / Volt.

That's a problem for a starter frame (but not for one that's acquired later on) as starter frames need larger margins of errors because new players shouldn't be expected to be good enough to not need the safety margins.

[CaptainMeowth]

What's EHP ?

[Almagnus1]

For reference, here's an EHP table of all three starters and their respective Prime/Umbra frames (sans Excal Umbra cause it's a founder exclusive and something a non-founder should ever be able to get ahold of).

Name	HP	Shields	Armor	L30 HP	L30 Shields	EHP
Mag	75	150	65	225	450	723.75
Mag Prime	100	150	65	300	450	815
Mag (Suggested)	100	150	65	300	450	815
Mag Prime (suggested)	100	150	100	300	450	850
Volt	100	150	15	300	450	765
Volt Prime	100	150	100	300	450	850
Excal	100	100	225	300	300	825
Excal Umbra	100	100	300	300	300	900

 

EHP (or Effective Hit Points) is a way to gauge how much HP you actually have, taking Shields, Armor, and HP into account.  The math for this is:

L30 HP = 3 * HP

L30 Shields = 3 * Shields

EHP = L30 HP/(1 - Armor/(300 + Armor) ) + L30 Shields

Something to keep in mind with the above math is that armor value is the most significant value here, with HP following closely behind it.  Shields don't really matter that much, especially when you factor in Vitality and Steel Fiber which change the L30 math to be 7.4* HP and Armor to be 2.2 * starting Armor.

There's an EHP calculator at https://github.com/cmd430/Warframe-EHP-Calculator (also https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5qo4fw/utility_ehp_calculator_for_warframe_pet/ ) that will help shed more light on this.

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Almagnus1

[motorfirebox]

I've always thought Mag's current shields should act as armor at 50% efficiency. So if she's undamaged and running a max Redirection (2430 shields unless I misremembered something), she effectively has 1280 total armor when it comes to stuff like Toxin and Slash procs. This makes Polarize a much more important ability.

[Almagnus1]

5 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

I've always thought Mag's current shields should act as armor at 50% efficiency. So if she's undamaged and running a max Redirection (2430 shields unless I misremembered something), she effectively has 1280 total armor when it comes to stuff like Toxin and Slash procs. This makes Polarize a much more important ability.

The problem with shields is that there's no real way to make them sturdier, nor is there a "break point" or some other mechanic where excess damage to the shields is shed instead of being applied to the warframe.  That's part of what makes shields just worthless when it comes to EHP as you can gain so much more by going with HP/Armor than you will ever going with HP/Shields once your base armor crosses a specific threshold (which Excal does).

So to tie it back to what you stated, is that assuming that the armor value would drop as the shields deplete?  If that's the case, the ability isn't going to work like you think it will... but it would be interesting to have Mag get a new passive where her armor value is applied to her shields.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Almagnus1

[felixsylvaris]

I am not sold for this. There is some fun in fact that Mag has big shields but low health/armour, and some other frames have big armour.

But i have no idea what could be done with it, other than Primed Redirection, or mod reducing incoming damage when shields are active. But that would be OP and power creep and destroying the warframe.

I am ok that some frames are squishy caster frames as long as abillities of mag are not bad at all. However would love to see some pimps:

• Pull energy orb creations happens based on body affected and does not demand killing with pull itself
• Each magnetic abillity has status chance
• Crush creates shards too
• Pull uses spare shards for bonus slash damage
• Mag passive happens during aim glide

Especially the lack of free energy orbs i find distrubing.

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by felixsylvaris

[Almagnus1]

22 minutes ago, felixsylvaris said:

I am ok that some frames are squishy caster frames as long as abillities of mag are not bad at all.

While I generally am fine with that as well, IMO they shouldn't be starter frames.  Trinity is a good example of a very squishy warframe that's also a very powerful support frame... however Trinity is acquired near the end of the star chart as Trinity is clearly not intended to be used without having a lot of mods to back up her abilities.

 

 

[felixsylvaris]

Starting frames are complex topic. Since some players always (in any game) pick assasin or mage or cleric so they know what is the price.

I would be ok if the roaster was enhanced with Ash, Rhino or Oberon.

Mag was my starting frame, and nobody told me it was bad choice, so it was ok.

Right now she has nice feature of CC power of pull (at least for starchart), and mass destrucion of Polarize as well as free restore shields, and we have a lot of shields. So at least for starchart it is good enought, you can even transition to Magnetize or fracturing crush for some higher levels. BUt it is personal preference.

[(PSN)teacup775]

Yet Mag can destroy Hydron, ESO and god knows what else. One syndicate mod has her nerfing enemy attacks.

She’s plenty strong and like Nova, but much less squishy, is a glass cannon.

[CaptainMeowth]

The only thing I really fear will playing Mag is poison damage from infested. And those really start to hurt at medium/high level.

I'm glad I picked up Mag as a starter. A good damage dealer, that can self-heal, and can collect more loots with her passive... I'm MR 24 now, and she's still one of my main.

[EinheriarJudith]

38 minutes ago, CaptainMeowth said:

The only thing I really fear will playing Mag is poison damage from infested. And those really start to hurt at medium/high level.

I'm glad I picked up Mag as a starter. A good damage dealer, that can self-heal, and can collect more loots with her passive... I'm MR 24 now, and she's still one of my main.

mag is very weak to infested but we have other warframes for that like ember or octavia etc. mag definitely blows up corpus, grineer, and corrupted though. on this account she was my starter never looked back ^_^.

[Wildcardgsx]

Something NEEDS to be done with Mag.  Mag is an amazing Frame but is so seriously squish. This can only be compounded for new players that dont have augments or tenno schools to help them to keep doing damage.

I can remember Very well when I started playing this game getting frustrated and giving up on the game back in 2013 because I couldn't get or find energy, this coupled with a already squish frame resulted in me walking away from the game for several years. 

Again I love Mag, she can be incredibly strong in the right circumstances but out side of those few times when you would take her specificly her potential is for a lack of a better word Lack Luster.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Wildcardgsx said:

Something NEEDS to be done with Mag.  Mag is an amazing Frame but is so seriously squish. This can only be compounded for new players that dont have augments or tenno schools to help them to keep doing damage.

I can remember Very well when I started playing this game getting frustrated and giving up on the game back in 2013 because I couldn't get or find energy, this coupled with a already squish frame resulted in me walking away from the game for several years. 

Again I love Mag, she can be incredibly strong in the right circumstances but out side of those few times when you would take her specificly her potential is for a lack of a better word Lack Luster.

not using the basic mechanics of the game to avoid damage/death is not a mag problem. the tutorials need to offer more situations to teach things better.  chosing mag is like chosing any mage in a game. when you pick a mage you know its going to be squishy. the answer is not to make the mage into a warrior you simply dont chose mage. mag was my starter and i had no trouble getting along on this acount that was from scratch so long ago. im also the type that looks for information to understand things better. are you telling me new players cant be bothered to try to learn things and should just be handed a frame that is over the top?

[felixsylvaris]

Is Mag very squishy right now? Not really. Shield restore helps, and you can do things with redirection. Mag benefits from Primed Vigor (you get your massive shields to restore, but also some health for status effect). But primed vigor is locked behind login rewards. Locking mods beyond login rewards was really one of worst decisions. You can even get overshield.

Major problem is that in practice pull does not create enought energy orbs. Since damage is rather low, so killing something exacly with pull is low chance. It should work somehow else. The gamestyle burn a lot energy, but gain some back, is ok. However there is no energy back.

There is also a case that you probably want Counter Pulse augment always, and it is important tool to offset squishness. Maybe Counter Pulse should be part of basic kit, but magnetic outburst of Polarize should be buffed and move as mod, since enemies are not always packed in gangs.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by felixsylvaris

[KingOfPredators]

Mag got "rework" so I doubt mag will get anything in a while. The only good thing from so called rework was added survivability from deeper energy pool. Also, because mag's abilities are quite expensive, mag needs constant flow of energy and that is what players who just started playing the game do not have.

Still, by utilizing magnetize and pull, you can avoid most of the damage. Polarize is slow to rely on augment and magnetize have better augment anyway, especially if you mod mag for 200% strength. Crush is terrible as always, even with overshields use it only if you know you can regain energy quickly.

[ShortCat]

20 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

So spinning a thought off from another thread, but after looking at the data that was provided on the dev stream a while ago, I'm wondering if increasing the base EHP of Mag (and Mag Prime) would help the newer players stick with Mag longer.  What I'm thinking is:

IMO Mag and Mag Prime are far too squishy, especially since Mag is supposed to be a starter frame.  Mag doesn't have a shield to hide behind (unlike Volt) and also doesn't have the EHP to shrug off most attacks like Excal.

Over the time Mag evolved from an effective Corpus murderer (what reserved her spot as a starter, I assume) into a Frame with complex skillset that requires advanced understanding of game mechanics and modding. Right now Mag is an excellent Frame at all stages of the game, that offesr more than one playstyle and enough room for personalized tweaks.

As a result, I do not see how an EHP increase, especially by this neglectible amount, can help new players. The issues lies somewhere else: she is just not newbfriendly. Thus it would make more sense to introduce a new starter frame. I would suggest Nyx. She is female, can be aquired fairly early, has a simple playstyle and works with basic mods, moreover she would cover a CC setup among the starters.

[Anthraxicus]

On 2018-09-02 at 8:06 PM, felixsylvaris said:

I am not sold for this. There is some fun in fact that Mag has big shields but low health/armour, and some other frames have big armour.

But i have no idea what could be done with it, other than Primed Redirection, or mod reducing incoming damage when shields are active. But that would be OP and power creep and destroying the warframe.

I am ok that some frames are squishy caster frames as long as abillities of mag are not bad at all. However would love to see some pimps:

• Pull energy orb creations happens based on body affected and does not demand killing with pull itself
• Each magnetic abillity has status chance
• Crush creates shards too
• Pull uses spare shards for bonus slash damage
• Mag passive happens during aim glide

Especially the lack of free energy orbs i find distrubing.

 

If shields were useful, that would be a plus. But shields are pretty much useless. Doesn't prevent damage to health (gas, slash) and the game doesn't have shield gate to prevent one-shots.

[Almagnus1]

Quote

As a result, I do not see how an EHP increase, especially by this neglectible amount, can help new players. The issues lies somewhere else: she is just not newbfriendly. Thus it would make more sense to introduce a new starter frame.

This is not a trivial EHP upgrade, as the numbers upthread are just the base values...  So why don't we look at the EHP calculations when Vitality, Redirection, and Steel Fiber are factored in?  (full spreadsheet is at https://1drv.ms/x/s!Agb7PTZ7Ja1FmMZYdf3XV16pB36EBQ )

Name	Base HP	Base Shields	Base Armor	Base EHP	R	SF	V	R+ SF	R+V	SF+V	R+SF+V
Mag	75	150	65	724	1384	778	1126	1438	1786	1258	1918
Mag Prime	100	150	65	815	1475	887	1351	1547	2011	1527	2187
Mag (Suggested)	100	150	65	815	1475	887	1351	1547	2011	1527	2187
Mag Prime (suggested)	100	150	100	850	1510	960	1437	1620	2097	1708	2368
Volt	100	150	15	765	1425	782	1227	1442	1887	1268	1928
Volt Prime	100	150	100	850	1510	960	1437	1620	2097	1708	2368
Excal	100	100	225	825	1265	1073	1595	1513	2035	2206	2646
Excal Umbra	100	100	300	900	1340	1230	1780	1670	2220	2594	3034

 

So the numbers you'd actually use are:

Name	Expected EHP
Mag	1786
Mag Prime	2011
Mag (Suggested)	2011
Mag Prime (suggested)	2097
Volt	1887
Volt Prime	2097
Excal	2206
Excal Umbra	2594

Those are gotten by running either Redirection + Vitality, or Vitality + Steel Fiber in the case of Excal and Excal Umbra

Quote

I would suggest Nyx. She is female, can be aquired fairly early, has a simple playstyle and works with basic mods, moreover she would cover a CC setup among the starters.

Nyx suffers from the problem that DPS is a better CC than CC - that and her skill set is a hot mess.  Nyx badly needs a rework, but as she isn't a starter warframe, IMO Mag needs more attention first.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Almagnus1

[TheGrimCorsair]

She's fine and doesn't.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

this is the third YT guide I’ve seen that recommends a healer specter to complement a Mag build. As it turns out, the healer debuffs damage for both health and shields. 

Even if this is a cool synergy, we can ask why Mag has to pull that off while other frames don’t. 

As for OP’s concerns that Mag starters are struggling with survivability someone mentioned being a squishy frame sets you up to adapt with other mechanics that can offset that squishiness and I agree- rolling, defensive parkour, constant cc, positioning behind bubbles or walls, healer specter, shield replenish.

The shield replenish itself is tricky territory, as Mag is effectively using energy to boost or refill shields- that can skew numbers when you compare her to frames that don’t regenerate 

Edited September 4, 2018 by (PS4)Chel-El

[Almagnus1]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

<video>

Dear god... why do all of the Mag videos you post have to have either grating personalities or robovoices >.>

Quote

this is the third YT guide I’ve seen that recommends a healer specter to complement a Mag build. As it turns out, the healer debuffs damage for both health and shields. 

Even if this is a cool synergy, we can ask why Mag has to pull that off while other frames don’t. 

That's kinda what I've been looking at, as needing a healing specter shouldn't be as mandatory as it is implied to be in a lot of the Mag videos I've seen.  To me, that indicates an implicit problem with Mag herself, as she just doesn't have the baseline EHP she needs to.

Quote

As for OP’s concerns that Mag starters are struggling with survivability someone mentioned being a squishy frame sets you up to adapt with other mechanics that can offset that squishiness and I agree- rolling, defensive parkour, constant cc, positioning behind bubble or walls, healer specter, shield replenish 

And more EHP is going to help with that because when they screw it up, that's the difference between being able to take the hit and dying on the spot.  When talking about a starter frame, you've got to go with the assumption that the player is going to start off bad (because, to be honest, we were all bad when we started playing warframe), and eventually get good.  If a player is getting killed too often they're either going to drop the warframe, or go with another one that lets them survive.  In that perspective, while experienced players are going to be able to maximize the stats... so newer players need the extra breathing space on the starter frames.

Quote

The shield replenish in itself is tricky territory, as Mag is effectively using energy to boost or refill shields 

That's just it with shields... there's very few mechanics that can make shields tankier that Mag has access to, specifically the only things that can affect shield damage absorption are Frost's Avalanche, Nezha's Warding Halo, and Rhino's Iron Skin.

I mean, Fast Deflection (shield recharge) looks like it should be good on paper... but it's really not because the shields aren't really all that tanky compared to HP because there's no way to apply an armor like stat to the Shields (which is something that's really well suited in another thread).

Edited September 4, 2018 by Almagnus1

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 2018-09-02 at 3:15 PM, Almagnus1 said:

That's a problem for a starter frame (but not for one that's acquired later on) as starter frames need larger margins of errors because new players shouldn't be expected to be good enough to not need the safety margins.

Overshields are also a part of the effective health pool equation.

With new players being more prone to either spamming the 1st ability they learned how to use or only spamming their 4th ability. Mag does get Tankier using her 4th ability.

I am not opposed to Mag getting Zephyr level of health pool and Khora levels of Armor, although I don't think it would change how new players perceive Mag even with 275 Armor and 450 health at level 30.**

[(PSN)MrNishi]

29 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's just it with shields... there's very few mechanics that can make shields tankier that Mag has access to, specifically the only things that can affect shield damage absorption are Frost's Avalanche, Nezha's Warding Halo, and Rhino's Iron Skin

Ancient Healer Specters, Trinity Blessing, Oberon Hallowed Ground (Due to no Slash or Toxic status bypass of Shields to health...thus making Mag's Shields buffed as being her actual life pool which she can recharge/Overshields with energy at will)

For Frost and Nezha to assist in protectection both need their Augments: Icy Avalanche and Safeguard.

Amesha - in POE and Fortuna can bolster Shields with either Benevolent Decoy direct cast like Safeguard Warding Halo Nezha, Status immunity like Hallowed Ground from Warding Grace Aura, or full invulnerability until energy is full from Vengeful Rush Aura.

 

*Not sure why you have Iron Skin as a way to bolster Mag's shields...

Fast deflection on Mag would be a joke..only because she can bypass the Shield recharge delay with 2 Ability casts that instantly generate Shields. Not including Sentinel precepts like Guardian or Shield Charger.

Wyrm Negate, Raska Protect, and Taxon Molecular Conversion also being Shield boosting.

Edited September 4, 2018 by (PS4)MrNishi
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