Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

28 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The moderators are there to keep people from getting into personal and divisive matters.
Issues like religion, sexuality and gender, and politics, are always divisive, and get personal more often than not.

In creating a game experience where players don't have to deal with that, we must accept some boundaries.
It's what makes our community a place that is inclusive and respectful for anyone of any background.
..unless your background is entirely in based smarmy jokes, competitive divisive language, and edginess.

This is not intended to be the freest form of expression.
This is meant to be a video game experience, that is aside and outside of personal and emotionally charged matters.
All players can benefit from this.
Not all players benefit from treating region chat like 4chan.
You can meme on Hundreds of Thousands of other places on the internet.
This place isn't that forum. This place is a video game experience.

Uh... OK? 

 

But that's not really related to the suggestions that were originally made. The intention here isn't to remove moderation from the chat, or change the  trigger list. It's about a suggestion for altering what happens when you run into trouble. Because while the bot works, there is room for improvement. 

 

One literally calls for incremental bans, potentially lasting much longer than what we already have for repeat offenders, so it's not about wanting less punishment. 

 

[Gizardpuke]

i see there was another conversation about over censoring chat. wrong words were spake, and someone got the boot.

i read those threads, and pick up on some interesting things in them.

 

in the latest one, someone mentions being able to "self filter / moderate chat".

lets kill that one now, when has anyone ever seen this actually work? fact is, it never works. why?

1 - every human on the planet is a [bleeping] [bleep]hole. thats why.

allowing people to self moderate is a fail of epic proportions, and simply doesnt work. 

we're all prone to doing stupid [bleep]. even me. and im often described as having no filter. and what i mean by that is, i swear a lot. i try to not use derogatory words as often as i can, but in the act of being a [bleeping] stupid human, and luckily in the confines of my computer monitor, sometimes dumb [bleep] blurts out. 

 

even letter mentions at the bottom, as per my subject title, "ignorance is no excuse". 

now i expect this to spark a reasonably heated conversation, which will eventually get the thread locked. 

i have no problem with this. but this is just me saying, that DE has the right to censor what they decide to censor. 

[Sean]

Quote

To start, will just be laying some ground rules:

• No spam.
  • This can be anything that isn't constructive to the topic regardless of your stance.
  • Spam posts will be removed by the Forum Moderators.
  • Spam does not help your argument and only looks childish.
• Follow the forum guidelines.
  • https://forums.warframe.com/guidelines/
• Be respectful.
  • Even though it's in the Guidelines, still needs a mention that just because you may not agree with someone does not mean you should just mindlessly insult them.
  • Constructive criticism will always be fine

 

 

The KickBot.
The KickBot has gone through quite a few changes since the game was first out. Initially, it was actually pretty balanced, often adhering to a person's choice on the Profanity Filter and kicking those that spammed (the bot would even inform you of the duration of the suspension). The people that didn't care about seeing some minor swear then had the ability to disable the filter. That is how things should happen.

Nowadays you can get banned for even saying the full username of a Partnered Streamer (strangely some chat moderators cheered on turning that word into something bannable) or just using a dumb meme in regards to a warframe (which has no thoughts or emotions)... one that would have faded ages ago if DE didn't create a mountain out of a molehill.

This isn't "protecting" anyone; this is only furthering a bizarre practice of turning normal words into insults as that is ultimately what it does; when a word is considered an insult, then that's all it will be.

People should be given the tools to defend themselves, not have some overzealous system banning over the most mundane of words. I've seen people come on here and try to defend having such a system, but usually their defense falls flat as it simply comes down to how context shouldn't matter.

In the current system, the truly horrible people will already know the ways to be horrible without getting the bot to notice; these people should be reported and ignored. Other people, especially newbies, will come to the game, may say a joke or phrase they saw on an official stream, then find themselves banned as there's no clear line of what is and isn't bannable.

 

The Official Streams.
This is honestly where I have the most issue with. The streams that are headed by the developers and the manager of the community often use words, phrases, and descriptions of warframes that would get anyone else banned in-game. While this is on Twitch, this is still being ran by Digital Extremes, not some random streamer. While I'm personally fine if they want to use childish humor on-camera, the fact that they have systems in place that would penalize those in their community that choose to do the same is just asinine. Going with a "do as we say, not as we do" approach only creates a lack of consistency, especially when you take into account easily sourceable information of negative behavior associated with various GotL where the ToU do not appear to apply.

 

Filters.
As I stated above, people should be given the tools to defend themselves. Not rely on systems put in place that over-react, this kind of dependence on such systems is also unhealthy for the people it attempts to protect. There is already a Profanity Filter in the game -- expand up on that idea. Combine it with the systems used to make the current chat filters.

The current system already cannot detect most slurs and variations of actual insults. Allowing people to create their own filter would resolve that. Any word or phrase that they feel is insulting to them, regardless of language or background, could then be added to a user's own personal list.

This type of filter could even include a Parental Lock for parents as this would be in its own menu and not just listed at the top of the chatbox. Any word or phrase, regardless of length, would simply be changed to ****. Please note that while the game is "Rated M for Mature", it is rated as such for "Violence, Blood and Gore" with a minor note for "Other: Users Interact", so parents who feel their child is mature enough for a game with blood and gore, but not words that people say, may allow their children to play it (now them finding text worse than gore is a wholly separate topic for discussion).

Other people who do not mind a word (within context) could then have the option to "opt out". This would not mean that what they say (again, within context) would have no repercussions, but just that they wouldn't have to worry about saying some minor word and get banned from it.

 

To summarize:

Give people a choice when it comes to words that can be used in mundane ways, and also have yourselves, and those within your staff, held to the same standards to what is set in place. People should be given the tools to protect themselves and not need an overzealous system to coddle them.

 

I encourage anyone with DE, be it employee or volunteer, to speak their side of the story as transparency in matters such as this can go a long way.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Sean

[Fishyflakes]

How hard is it to not type slurs, seriously.

Enough of this

[Sean]

Just now, Fishyflakes said:

 

Please do not spam.

That is such a minor part and only looks like you have not read the topic.

[Fishyflakes]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

Please do not spam.

That is such a minor part and only looks like you have not read the topic.

You're the one making a "mountain out of a molehill" from what I've read

[Sean]

1 minute ago, Fishyflakes said:

You're the one making a "mountain out of a molehill" from what I've read

 

Nothing wrong with voicing criticism in a civil way to a system that does not appear consistent and appears to have some massive cracks in it.

[Fishyflakes]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

 

Nothing wrong with voicing criticism in a civil way to a system that does not appear consistent and appears to have some massive cracks in it.

There isn't but the idea that 4 friends in a informal sitting needs to be moderated is totally unnecessary imo

[Uthael]

How many of these topics are there?!

... I support all of them. None ask for removal of the filter. Just more lenient filtering or smaller initial punishments.

Granted, if someone would intentionally insult and keep bashing another person, yes. That warrants a long mute or even a ban.

But most of these transgressions are just miniscule in comparison and done without any ill intent.

[Sean]

2 minutes ago, Fishyflakes said:

There isn't but the idea that 4 friends in a informal sitting needs to be moderated is totally unnecessary imo

 

I assume you are referring to the streams?

They are on camera, they are not in an informal sitting, and are in front of 50k+ people.

 

People will look to them as an example, they should lead by example.

[Voltage]

I think you bring up some great points. However, there were several threads merged into one which regards moderation feedback, so you should probably request it is merged as well as it seems moderators are paying attention:

On Topic: I do think moderation could use some much needed improvement, but I would go about it a different way. I would just be more transparent on why you were suspended from chat/the game, not give players an easier time. If players can be taught what they did wrong, they will likely correct their issue or they will be banned another time. Everything below represents my stance on the moderation system and the original comment is within the thread I linked above.

Essentially, small things like these are much needed:

On 2018-09-04 at 5:20 PM, Voltage said:

[DE]Kickbot

The chat bot should have features added to it. [DE]Kickbot should scrub the chat of blacklisted words and send a 24 suspension + warning to the player violating the guidelines on the first offense. Second offense players should be suspended for 7 days. A modified version of the official Warframe guidelines should be linked in chat using brackets. This modified guidelines page should contain a list of terms not tolerated by moderation staff. It should also include the fact that a suspension is a private matter and will not be solved on the Warframe Forums. Support should be mentioned as the proper resource to resolve the issue.

Human Moderators

To put it simply: we need more. The Forums currently house around 4,232,000 registered members and rising with a peak of just over 157,000 online on August 9th, 2018 as per:

This is an insane amount of players for the handful of active moderators we have. I have witnessed numerous threads that are downright against the Terms of Service and/or Community Guidelines. All I can do is report them and possibly wait hours for the thread to be merged, locked, or even deleted. The most recent example was an extreme amount of threads per hour over the course of a week regarding the proposed Daily Tribute changes. These threads deserved to be merged to the Dev Workshop, but with the limited amount of moderators, the result was General Feedback and General Discussion left cluttered for long periods of time.

The player base is increasing at an alarming rate which is fantastic, but the moderation team needs to keep up. It is essential to recruit more moderators as it reduces the workload for current moderators, and it improves the user experience for players on all platforms. A consistent ratio of players to moderators should be established. Many players are out there that would hopefully be fit for moderating from the perspective of Digital Extremes.

On the topic of automated messages when being banned, an improvement would be similar to this:

On 2018-09-04 at 5:20 PM, Voltage said:

“My account was suspended.”
These threads can be greatly reduced in number if a reasoning for a ban can be added to the current ban message.

Current Message: “Your account has been suspended until January 1st, 2035 for violating the End-User License Agreement/Terms of Service/Code of Conduct.”
Proposed Message: “Your account has been suspended until January 1st, 2035 for violating the End-User License Agreement/Terms of Service/Code of Conduct. This was because <insert general reasoning>. You may contact Warframe Support to resolve this issue and be given more specific reasoning. Do not bring this issue to the Warframe Forums.”

“My access to chat was suspended [for saying X].”
These threads are primarily due to the confusion of being banned with no word on the reasoning, length, and severity of a chat suspension. Going with the ideas proposed above, the changes made to the message will not only help moderators on the Forums, but also teach players.

Current Message: “Your access to in-game chat has been suspended.”
Proposed Message: [DE]Kickbot (in a PM): “Your access to in-game chat has been suspended for <insert duration of ban> for saying: (message break) <quotation of what you said>. (message break) This is unacceptable behavior and violates the [Chat Guidelines] (provides a link to the guidelines). Please visit Support for assistance if the suspension lasts longer than the suspension duration given. Do not bring this issue to the Warframe Forums.

All in all, I think good change can come to moderation should constructive criticism by the masses come into play. The current moderation system has been flawed for almost a year now, maybe more. I have just noticed these trends on the Forums and Reddit over the last 10 months or so.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Voltage

[Fishyflakes]

Just now, Sean said:

 

I assume you are referring to the streams?

They are on camera, they are not in an informal sitting, and are in front of 50k+ people.

 

People will look to them as an example, they should lead by example.

They are great examples.

Region chat could only hope to be as genuine with all the owo, nezha jokes, PM harassment, backseat modding, etc.

[Sean]

12 hours ago, Fishyflakes said:

They are great examples.

Region chat could only hope to be as genuine with all the owo, nezha jokes, PM harassment, backseat modding, etc.

 

I've seen people claim that a lot that has to do with what is bannable is because people sexualize warframes.

...they do that on stream.

 

Spam isn't good to do in-game.

...they actively tell their users to spam.

[Vox_Preliator]

"Consistency"

In-game chat ain't Twitch. 

It is entirely consistent.

[Fishyflakes]

12 hours ago, Sean said:

 

I've seen people claim that a lot that has to do with what is bannable is because people sexualize warframes.

...they do that on stream.

 

Spam isn't good to do in-game.

...they actively tell their users to spam.

You can't possibly think that the problems in region chat are caused by a Bi-monthly stream.

[Sean]

3 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

"Consistency"

In-game chat ain't Twitch. 

It is entirely consistent.

It is them in front and running both areas.

Their behavior is where the lack of consistency lies, not the chat.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Fishyflakes said:

You can't possibly think that the problems in region chat are caused by a Bi-monthly stream.

 

It doesn't help that their behavior would break their own rules.

People will look to them as an example and will base allowable actions on what they do.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Sean

[Uthael]

Receiving a punishment that's too harsh hurts more than whatever was written in the first place. Like knocking someone out for bumping you with a shoulder.

Personally, I never swore in chat. I never do IRL either. But not because I try to be polite, but because I was raised like that (same as everyone in that area). I understand when someone says "*** awesome!" or "**** that, I'm out." and I don't mind the language. Many words are becoming insults. But this is the opposite and should be allowed in some contexts. And even if punished, those punishments shouldn't measure in days.

Off-topic: "a gay person" used to mean "a cheerful/happy person",

Edit: What @Voltage said seems quite reasonable. Have my upvote.

[Fishyflakes]

Just now, Sean said:

It is them in front and running both areas.

Their behavior is where the lack of consistency lies, not the chat.

 

 

 

It doesn't help that their behavior would break their own rules.

People will look to them as an example and will base allowable actions on what they do.

No. People don't "look to them as an example" in region chat.

They are in two completely different settings and have different rules and norms to be following.

[Sean]

1 minute ago, Fishyflakes said:

No. People don't "look to them as an example" in region chat.

They are in two completely different settings and have different rules and norms to be following.

 

Why do you keep bringing in region chat?

That's such a small facet to what is being discussed.

[Uthael]

24 minutes ago, Fishyflakes said:

There isn't but the idea that 4 friends in a informal sitting needs to be moderated is totally unnecessary imo

This, too. If everyone in a squad has everyone else on their friends list, the squad chat should be uncensored.

[Fishyflakes]

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

 

Why do you keep bringing in region chat?

That's such a small facet to what is being discussed.

You don't realize it's the most important?

You even made one of these meme threads that we see every single day and consider the "oh I've been chat banned" a "small facet?"

[TheSteelRat]

having a chat ban for Y time for saying X without saying that "X" is the reason and bad is lasting for Y time , is a bad system.  It also does not allow for feedback, or correction.  We do not even know what is on the "Forbidden" list of words.  it smacks of authoritarian hypocrisy which is one of the worst forms of leadership, the other is doing nothing.  Do something constructive

[Yuri_Doujinshi]

I once got banned for saying a certain word in an unoffensive reference. Another time, I got banned from all chats for 3 days for jokingly saying -- in a relay. I wholly agree that the system is quite often overbearing, and needs some heavy tweaks.

[Edarin]

2 minutes ago, -CM-Kinnison said:

having a chat ban for Y time for saying X without saying that "X" is the reason and bad is lasting for Y time , is a bad system.  It also does not allow for feedback, or correction.  We do not even know what is on the "Forbidden" list of words.  it smacks of authoritarian hypocrisy which is one of the worst forms of leadership, the other is doing nothing.  Do something constructive

Yes, and the main problem regarding those situations is that I've seen a lot of people getting banned over sayings like: "Farming Hydroid is one of the biggest traps in this game" 
I feel about chat restrictions those kind of things are the main problems since small things like those gather the anger of people. Imagine just talking around and you get a ban for no reason.
This is actually the same reason I didn't approach the region chat for more than 1 year or 2. And there are alot of issues with the moderators itself and let's not say that I've seen as well or maybe I should better say I haven't seen lately any of those people that should support new players aka Guides of the Lotus.

Over all the "staff" in this game and the moderation curently has lots of flaws and I'm pretty sure they are aware of those. But they need a plan to change those and solutions for those don't come at you so handy. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

 

8 hours ago, Gizardpuke said:

i have no problem with this. but this is just me saying, that DE has the right to censor what they decide to censor. 

Right, but that's not what this particular thread is about at all. We agree that they can censor what they want to, and we aren't discussing what should or should not be on the list. 

 

This is about how it's done, the automated and human actions, with the aim of a general improvement of the system. Teach new players what is and isn't acceptable, by warning-punishing-explaining. Punish regular and repeat offenders with incremental punishment that goes beyond what we currently have. 

 

The current system is better than nothing, but it's "one size fits all" approach is an issue, especially because trolls are exploiting the system to get new players banned.