Warframe Chat Moderation: Assessment and Renovation

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

9 hours ago, Sean said:

As I stated above, people should be given the tools to defend themselves.

We already have filters.  It's not enough.  Filters put the onus on the people who are being attacked by slurs to do something about the slurs instead of heading off those slurs at the source.  Why should people have to remove slurs from their own chat while leaving people free to splash slurs all over the chat?  Additionally, what about the people who avoid the filter I, or someone else, has set up?  Now, I have to update my filter.

9 hours ago, Sean said:

Any word or phrase, regardless of length, would simply be changed to ****.

Simply not good enough.  It can often be inferred what was being said even if you change the word to stars.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

i support having more information about WHY and WHAT caused said bans, because as most people stated, there's need context to things.

Theres also the filter option inside the game chat options
Couldn't DE plain and simply work more on that filter and during some update auto activate said filter for everyone?
Then people would be able to deactivate it if so they wanted.

besides everything states that WARFRAME is, or at least its supposed to be, a mature game right?  
or should we also bleep everything Deadpool says in the movies, because someone may not like it or feel offended by it? 

 

[Marcooose]

Friendly reminder to all in this thread, just because you are discussing chat moderation, it does not mean you can repeat the words that are bannable offenses in chat or on the forums.

I have cleaned up the comments that contained the swearing but try to leave it out moving forward!

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Friendly reminder to all in this thread, just because you are discussing chat moderation, it does not mean you can repeat the words that are bannable offenses in chat or on the forums.

I have cleaned up the comments that contained the swearing but try to leave it out moving forward!

Thanks for keeping up the good work!

As much as i would like to discuss the banned words, this is no place for that and i want it to stay that way.

[Fallen_Echo]

Because many may not read the start of the thread heres a link:

Please try to refrain from discussing what is and why is banned and keep this thread clean.

Our goal here is to improve the automatic and the human moderation.

The keywords are:

1. Punishments
2. The right to make a mistake
3. Report functions
4. Chat handling
5. Bot AI update
6. Information and the ability to see throught causes and effects

Here are some other keypoints worth talking and reading about:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005795-warframe-moderation-assessment-and-renovation/?do=findComment&comment=10126134

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005795-warframe-moderation-assessment-and-renovation/?do=findComment&comment=10126474

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005795-warframe-moderation-assessment-and-renovation/?do=findComment&comment=10155422

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

i support having more information about WHY and WHAT caused said bans, because as most people stated, there's need context to things.

Theres also the filter option inside the game chat options
Couldn't DE plain and simply work more on that filter and during some update auto activate said filter for everyone?
Then people would be able to deactivate it if so they wanted.

besides everything states that WARFRAME is, or at least its supposed to be, a mature game right?  
or should we also bleep everything Deadpool says in the movies, because someone may not like it or feel offended by it? 

 

Wouldn't work. 

Yes populating the filter list with the same phrases as the bot and setting the default to on, is an option, but you can easily see how many people find ways around the bot already. Having the filter alone wouldn't mean that our problems are solved any more than the bot currently does. Better to cut the problem out root and stem: if people cannot accept the rules, then they will live with the consequences. 

 

Being mature doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want. It also means you respect others and the limitations put on our behaviour, even if you disagree with them. Even children learn that there are rules that apply in society that may not apply at your home. 

This thread is not a discussion about what should be allowed. It's about what we can do to make the system better, help people to learn what is and isn't allowed, and punish those who go out of their way to break the rules. Fallen_Echo gave some useful links above, please try to check out the first post. You will find that it's is a pretty comprehensive set of suggestions. You might even find bits that you think should be implemented.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Wouldn't work. 

Yes populating the filter list with the same phrases as the bot and setting the default to on, is an option, but you can easily see how many people find ways around the bot already. Having the filter alone wouldn't mean that our problems are solved any more than the bot currently does. Better to cut the problem out root and stem: if people cannot accept the rules, then they will live with the consequences. 

 

Being mature doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want. It also means you respect others and the limitations put on our behaviour, even if you disagree with them. Even children learn that there are rules that apply in society that may not apply at your home. 

This thread is not a discussion about what should be allowed. It's about what we can do to make the system better, help people to learn what is and isn't allowed, and punish those who go out of their way to break the rules. Fallen_Echo gave some useful links above, please try to check out the first post. You will find that it's is a pretty comprehensive set of suggestions. You might even find bits that you think should be implemented.

what makes u think i didnt? i even said that i agreed with a LOT of suggestions in this thread, so what gives?

mine would be an all solving solution? of course not, but would be a faster one until a better one was defacto implemented
Sure, i know what mature means, but hard to agree to some of the specific terms and words giving bans all around when in a lot of other things with "Mature Content"  like Deadpool which i had just used as example before, but could list a lot of another ones, thats not a big deal.

Also even in some Tweets from DE staff  theres jokes with the same words and terms which are banned from the game. Like with the "Nezha" joke.
But ingame it doesnt feel like mature, feels more like PG13. Could also just change the game classification if thats actual the case.

Edited September 17, 2018 by -.SP.-G43riel

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 minutes ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

what makes u think i didnt? i even said that i agreed with a LOT of suggestion in this thread so what gives?

I got the distinct impression that multiple threads had been merged based on the posts on the previous page. Given the fact that this one wasn't ever about what should and shouldn't be allowed (and we've actually had clear instructions not to try and go down that road), which was something a part of your response was heading towards, I figured you were joining us from the other branch. (I don't really understand why they were chucked in here if that's what was done and I don't know how that'll work out.) 

You only spoke about supporting having information about what caused the ban which was only a small piece of what Fallen_Echo mentioned as part of the proposed system. It's actually supposed to be a part of the current system, and it was mentioned on the last page as well. 

There wasn't any intention of bashing you, this thread just gets a lot scrutiny (as you can see above) because we've all seen too many go astray and get shut down and some of us don't want to see that happen because the suggestions do stand a chance of making the system better for all of us if they do decide to use them as a framework for improvement. If you have read Fallen_Echo's original post, you have my apologies. 

[CupcakesMoo]

With everyone going on about how they got banned in region chat I wonder if they will keep posting about their chat bans if we

A: Had a way to have the line that got them banned appear under their post.

B: Moderators don't lock the threads and instead let the community judge the person for what got them banned.

I wonder if this could stop the "I got banned" spam on the open forums? 

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, CupcakesMoo said:

I wonder if this could stop the "I got banned" spam on the open forums? 

No it wouldn't because people just can't behave. They are animals. Even if they knew what they did wrong, and most people do know that, they would always argue that it's not that bad...

Spamming the forums should just prolong the ban.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

10 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Simply not good enough.  It can often be inferred what was being said even if you change the word to stars.

Seriously, dude? It's enough for everything else, like TV bleeps.. Just because you have masterful inference, doesn't mean that everyone else has to suffer. Also, so what if someone can infer what the bad word is? The word still isn't appearing on your screen, and you can't be totally sure of what it actually is, so what more do you want? Normal **** censoring is perfectly fine. 

Also, while you're here, how come you ban people without giving any explanation? I've posted screenshots of DE employees saying that moderators have to give explanations, and that you've been reminded as such. Did DE not actually tell the mods this, or did you just ignore it? In a thread about assessing and possibly renovating warframe moderation, I think that this is very important and very relevant. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by (XB1)Erudite God

[Voltage]

I think the best solution is adding a line to the kickbot that says "Please visit Warframe support. The matter should not be brought to the Forums."

Anyone who posts their ban on the forums will endure consequences for not reading.

Clarity should be the only addition to the moderation system, and I think public judgement is not a good route to take.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Voltage

[Sean]

11 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

We already have filters.  It's not enough.  Filters put the onus on the people who are being attacked by slurs to do something about the slurs instead of heading off those slurs at the source.  Why should people have to remove slurs from their own chat while leaving people free to splash slurs all over the chat?  Additionally, what about the people who avoid the filter I, or someone else, has set up?  Now, I have to update my filter.

Simply not good enough.  It can often be inferred what was being said even if you change the word to stars.

You simply do not understand what I'm suggesting.

I've gone through this with you before and made it as plain as possible, but you repeat the same things that run counter to what I say.

I'll explain this one more time for you, but if you continue to try to repeat replies that looks like you are intentionally trying to by ignorant, then I am done replying to anything you say as honestly at that point it just simply isn't worth my time as you would have proven to just want to try and read things incorrectly.

Current filters do the following:

• Show above the chatbox.
• Removes the entire line of text.
• Can often be reset without reason.
• Affects one chat at a time.
• Are really only useful for Trade Chat.

 

What I'm suggesting:

• Implement a system that allows people to add words, phrases, and their variations to a proper blocklist, including words that the bot cannot detect as it would be "too much" to be applied to everyone globally.
• Would only remove the actual word / phrase, NOT the full line.
• Would be within the actual Settings and allow parents to lock it to prevent their children from editing it.
• Affects ALL chats, including squad and clan.

You obviously didn't read where I said it would be **** regardless of length.

You could say something that was actually 6 characters and it would just become ****.
Something 3 characters? = ****
Something 20 characters? = ****

Hell, could even just do {*} for everything/anything that gets removed.
People should be given the tools, hiding behind a faulty automated system does not help anyone.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Sean

[GinKenshin]

I'd rather they just make a megathread of complaints and traps, it'll make it easier for me at least to follow it and get a laugh or two from it 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

44 minutes ago, Sean said:

snip

Friendly advice, cut down on the spaces between lines. You're kinda going overboard lol

[Sean]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

Friendly advice, cut down on the spaces between lines. You're kinda going overboard lol

lol... oops...

going to fix.

 

 

Edit: and fix'd.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Sean

[terrorBOOKs]

I fear for the road WARFRAME is heading and one of the reasons is some of its members reactions to situations that worry the community. I made a post about censorship scaring new players on a rated M game. I for one agree to all that has been said about the problems of mods. My question is... what will DE do if the community starts a backlash?

[notlamprey]

33 minutes ago, terrorBOOKs said:

I fear for the road WARFRAME is heading and one of the reasons is some of its members reactions to situations that worry the community. I made a post about censorship scaring new players on a rated M game. I for one agree to all that has been said about the problems of mods. My question is... what will DE do if the community starts a backlash?

So far, we haven't seen any outward sign that anything is being done.

As mentioned in a thread that I think might no longer be publicly viewable, things might be happening internally without us knowing. That's possible, but it doesn't really do anything to make the community feel better.

In terms of backlash, we already had perhaps the biggest wave of backlash that might reasonably be expected - but that was three months ago. Things appear to have cooled back down to a simmer, but the tension definitely persists.

[terrorBOOKs]

I see... such information is useful and I can't find anyone YET to have mentioned it... except you that it 

[Gizardpuke]

18 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

Right, but that's not what this particular thread is about at all. We agree that they can censor what they want to, and we aren't discussing what should or should not be on the list. 

 

This is about how it's done, the automated and human actions, with the aim of a general improvement of the system. Teach new players what is and isn't acceptable, by warning-punishing-explaining. Punish regular and repeat offenders with incremental punishment that goes beyond what we currently have. 

 

The current system is better than nothing, but it's "one size fits all" approach is an issue, especially because trolls are exploiting the system to get new players banned. 

completely agree. in a lot of cases, and this something im reading a lot, a simple sentence is banned because it contains a specific word. when the context of the entire statement should be the reasoning for the ban or suspension. i see trap mentioned a lot. but in the greater context, if the word is used in a way thats not demeaning or insulting, then why are they getting banned?

 

like for frost and the syndicate mod for it that freezes enemies. 

'i got the new frost mod from the syndicates and ran mobile defense and stopped them from claiming the node, with my freeze trap'.

innocent in context, but can get someone banned.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

18 minutes ago, Gizardpuke said:

"i got the new frost mod from the syndicates and ran mobile defense and stopped them from claiming the node, with my freeze trap'.

innocent in context, but can get someone banned.

Does that actually happen? Because we've been told repeatedly that it should not. I'm inclined to believe that it doesn't, but am not interested in testing it (I don't really enjoy playing frost). 

[Gizardpuke]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Does that actually happen? Because we've been told repeatedly that it should not. I'm inclined to believe that it doesn't, but am not interested in testing it (I don't really enjoy playing frost). 

its just an example, it may not happen, but i've seen and heard of people using a simple word in in game chat, and getting banned for it.

where the context of a words use, in the wider sentence can have huge repercussions. 

 

basically for me, it looks like they are banning based on certain words, and not on context. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 minutes ago, Gizardpuke said:

its just an example, it may not happen, but i've seen and heard of people using a simple word in in game chat, and getting banned for it.

where the context of a words use, in the wider sentence can have huge repercussions. 

 

basically for me, it looks like they are banning based on certain words, and not on context. 

Some words, but I used to run a kickbot in a chat system very similar to what I suspect we have. I am inclined to believe that the scenario you're presenting is unlikely to trigger the bot, and if it does happen with a word in the common lexicon, it is likely to be fixed fairly rapidly by human intervention and then won't be an issue. 

 

I consider it a non-issue compared to the other concerns, like newbs being trolled into saying something on the list. 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

Just boycott the region chat, it's like not anything useful ever goes on in the region chat, anyways. Then once region chat is filled with only mods will there be a less demand for mods, and then there will be no need for a region chat, so then admins will delete the region chat due to no one using it.

But to be more serious, you guys are giving the mods more fuel to fight back for "what's right." Let them enforce their flawed system and let them learn the hard way when there's a lack of voice in their playerbase. The best way to protest I think, is a silent one because that's indeed unbannable.

Honestly though, to improve Warframe's region chat, DE should just copy other games in terms of global chat rooms, and only allow the players with an item that typically looks like a speaker horn (which either requires plat, credits, or some currency to obtain them) permission to chat in region chat so players won't be spamming region chat with lack of cost and force players to comment efficiently in region chat because they only have a limited about of horns or whatever to use in global chat.

Both the players and the mods can't handle the current region chat because there's no item/currency cost in trolling, spamming, or even derailing important topics in region chat. We have trade credit tax, but no region chat tax...

If we have some sort of region chat tax, it discourages trolling and spamming...and also gives less work for the moderators (moderators are people, not robots)

I personally see no point in socializing in region chat anyways...players comment so quickly I can barely keep up with the reading, sometimes

Apparently, some players love to voice their opinions in a simple chat box, make them work for it...force them to think more about what they want to say before they waste their "global speaker horns." Hell, it might even force the players to play the game more...and maybe be even more constructive in region chat.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[(PSN)the-creeperman]

4 hours ago, CupcakesMoo said:

With everyone going on about how they got banned in region chat I wonder if they will keep posting about their chat bans if we

A: Had a way to have the line that got them banned appear under their post. 

DE won't even state the reasons for the ban to the offender in region chat so I don't see why they would make an exception on the forums.

4 hours ago, CupcakesMoo said:

B: Moderators don't lock the threads and instead let the community judge the person for what got them banned.

Yes because the mob is a perfectly fair and just means to render judgement on those stupid enough to get banned.