Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[rune_me]

4 hours ago, angias said:

Giving the opportunity to those who think she is op to see this thread.

Either changing their mind or allowing them to give good argument. (would be quite surprises)

I somehow doubt they'd bother reading through 11 pages of people insulting each other on the internet 

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

5 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I somehow doubt they'd bother reading through 11 pages of people insulting each other on the internet 

They probably started to read then saw there was a  person disagreeing with them and ignored the rest of the post and all others that are similar

[failedtodiet]

21 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Whoa whoa whoa whoa WHOA.

There you go again, twisting my words.

Or, more accurately, misunderstanding them I guess.

 

I didn't say "half of the frames in the game have multiplicative bonuses". I said MORE than half DO NOT.

In fact, it's probably something like... 3-5 frames DO? And Saryn is one of them.

 

What post did I ignore? Show me and I will directly address it. I felt I was doing a good job at responding. (Keep in mind, I was not in this thread from the start. I came in late and didn't wanna read 9 pages of BS. But that being said, I implore you to show me a post you want my response for.)

 

As for the build, let me just tell you that 175% Efficiency is not needed. When was the last time you went OOM spending 6 energy per spell?

ALL of that unused energy directly represents stats that you're missing out on.

Yep, maybe i used to facts. So i understand your post differently from what you're trying to say. 

Since this topic contains alot of BS, i can agree on not swimming through 11 pages of BS just to get somebody to understand what they don't want to. 

On the build: Frankly, i'm trying to get you to post your 230+ str build so everyone else can see how well it do, which contents that build is good at and what has to be sacrifice in the build. There is no superduper one build kill all with Saryn but you can have different builds for almost every situations. Few frame can do that and that's why she's so good.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

On 2018-08-18 at 11:13 PM, Kraythax said:

Yes. Same in survival, defense, mobile defense. Any time enemies are clustered she is STUPID op.

I know the saryn players would object to this post but its what I feel.

She’s not op at all. Just because you see a bunch of dmg numbers. Doesn’t mean she’s a powerhouse. I just thinks she great at stripping armor. Her kit could’ve been for another new frame in my opinion and had her continue to spread Toxin tbh

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

Here's a Pro-Saryn argument: Yes, she is OP, but the real problem is not her OP-ness; the real problem is that right now she is the only frame that can do all that damage and survive in ESO. I'm always reviving Equinoxes, Rhinos and Limbos. Saryns bleed out too, but not as much because her powers are more immediate. We don't need more nerfs, we need some buffs not only to damage but to overall frame survivability to other warframes. In short, make other warframes viable for difficult content like ESO.

An observation: I noticed that if I spore and let my squad mates do the killing, my damage goes sky-high and it lasts longer. It's a mixed bag whether or not I come out on top in kills at the end, but that damage stat usually goes to the Saryn in the squad.

[4thBro]

58 minutes ago, (XB1)Cash201293 said:

She’s not op at all. Just because you see a bunch of dmg numbers. Doesn’t mean she’s a powerhouse.

Let me just stop you right there.

 

How, then, might one define "powerhouse"?

 

50 minutes ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

Here's a Pro-Saryn argument: Yes, she is OP, but the real problem is not her OP-ness; the real problem is that right now she is the only frame that can do all that damage and survive in ESO. I'm always reviving Equinoxes, Rhinos and Limbos. Saryns bleed out too, but not as much because her powers are more immediate. We don't need more nerfs, we need some buffs not only to damage but to overall frame survivability to other warframes. In short, make other warframes viable for difficult content like ESO.

An observation: I noticed that if I spore and let my squad mates do the killing, my damage goes sky-high and it lasts longer. It's a mixed bag whether or not I come out on top in kills at the end, but that damage stat usually goes to the Saryn in the squad.

This is the first logical pro-Saryn post. I don't really have any complaints about this post.

I even recently vendored off Ember because she's just so bad. A frame I used to primarily play.

I have also recently been exploring Mirage. But she's also just too insanely squishy. I feel like I can't play her anymore. In theory her Eclipse buff could give her 95% damage reduction. But that buff is INSANELY unreliable.

 

So you're basically right. Saryn is OP, but at the same time, Warframe is kind of "Battle of the OP's". Except, unfortunately, some frames are still designed without that in mind. There's content that requires OP, but then the "fair" frames can't really participate. (And some frames are just downright bad.)

 

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You shouldn't be having to revive Rhino's, though. They're doing something incredibly wrong.

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, failedtodiet said:

Correct me if i'm wrong. Is he implying that all other warframes damage bonus is only additive ? So without giving any specific or realistic numbers, as far as my broken engrish goes, I understand that he tried to say that Saryn's buff is far more potent than every other frame's buffs.

The bolding of the text was unnecessary, granted, that's just the way they are I guess.

However I'm sure all they meant was that not every frame has the ability to press a button and multiply their weapon damage. A base Toxin Lash will almost triple your per shot damage if you take into account the DoT.

Excalibur, Zephyr, Volt etc. Whilst they might have means to increase certain damage, it's either for a single weapon type (Blind) or requires you to be in a certain location (Electric Sheild). How many frames can simply press a button and buff the damage of all their weapons and continue as they were. 

For arguments sake, not even Chroma can do this, as whilst his Vex Armour requires multiplication the manner in which it stacks with the rest of his kit is additive.

For example,

Toxin Lash: Total Damage x (1+30%).

Vex Armour: Base damage x (Vex Armour + Serration).

Unlike Toxin Lash which is a simple multiplication, Vex Armour's value is added to whatever other base damage mods you already have. You cannot multiply base or total damage by Vex Armour's stat to get the answer.

[failedtodiet]

18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

The bolding of the text was unnecessary, granted, that's just the way they are I guess.

However I'm sure all they meant was that not every frame has the ability to press a button and multiply their weapon damage. A base Toxin Lash will almost triple your per shot damage if you take into account the DoT.

Excalibur, Zephyr, Volt etc. Whilst they might have means to increase certain damage, it's either for a single weapon type (Blind) or requires you to be in a certain location (Electric Sheild). How many frames can simply press a button and buff the damage of all their weapons and continue as they were. 

For arguments sake, not even Chroma can do this, as whilst his Vex Armour requires multiplication the manner in which it stacks with the rest of his kit is additive.

For example,

Toxin Lash: Total Damage x (1+30%).

Vex Armour: Base damage x (Vex Armour + Serration).

Unlike Toxin Lash which is a simple multiplication, Vex Armour's value is added to whatever other base damage mods you already have. You cannot multiply base or total damage by Vex Armour's stat to get the answer.

As you can see, my post is not to arguing about the math. It's clear as day that add 30% more is the same as multiply by 1.3. So you can use whichever you prefer. But sometime ill informed people can get the wrong idea based on overexaggerate words.

if Saryn has Chroma's survivalbility then she does deserve a nerf, in this case, she's not. Saryn is a caster, if you choose to take advantage of condition overload and use her as a toxic Slash melee frame then it's high risk - high reward and very active gameplay, nothing like press one button then everything dies. Toxic slash is powerful, but the problem lies in Condition overload.

At this point i would suggest to nerf Condition overload, but that will affects a lot of frames. A better choice is to ask for re balance/buff outdated frames. With no end-game to balance stuff around, that's a logical choice as everyone in this game is slowly but surely progress to higher tier gameplay. Does anyone here want to fight level 50 star map for forever ? 

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, failedtodiet said:

As you can see, my post is not to arguing about the math. It's clear as day that add 30% more is the same as multiply by 1.3. So you can use whichever you prefer. But sometime ill informed people can get the wrong idea based on overexaggerate words.

I know, I was just trying to explain a little more in depth why not all frames can be considered to have multiplicative damage in the same manner that Saryn has, and why it was perhaps exclaimed in the way it was.

I mean, I do agree that it didn't need to be in bold, in fact it didn't really need to be stated in the first place given there's nothing it could be but multiplicative, but oh well.

We live and learn.

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

For arguments sake, not even Chroma can do this, as whilst his Vex Armour requires multiplication the manner in which it stacks with the rest of his kit is additive.

For example,

Toxin Lash: Total Damage x (1+30%).

Vex Armour: Base damage x (Vex Armour + Serration).

Unlike Toxin Lash which is a simple multiplication, Vex Armour's value is added to whatever other base damage mods you already have. You cannot multiply base or total damage by Vex Armour's stat to get the answer.

Not true. Toxin Lash doesn't actually increase your damage. It just gives you 100% toxin procs and the damage shown is the percentage of how high the toxin ticks will be.

Ember's accelerant however is multiplicatively for heat damage. And so are all the elemental %-dmg increase augments for frames' 1st abilities.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Not true. Toxin Lash doesn't actually increase your damage. It just gives you 100% toxin procs and the damage shown is the percentage of how high the toxin ticks will be.

Can anyone confirm and/or prove this? Because if that's the case then the wiki is misleading as hell given it states several times it adds damage directly to the attack followed by a proc.

[Xirka]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Can anyone confirm and/or prove this? Because if that's the case then the wiki is misleading as hell given it states several times it adds damage directly to the attack followed by a proc.

Toxic Lash

You’ve told us that having Toxic Lash limited to Melee was too restrictive and was simply not compatible with a broader variety of playstyles. So we’re sharing its Toxin with the lot of your Arsenal! Toxic Lash’s Toxin damage buff in Saryn’s revisit is now granted to ANY weapon in your Loadout (Primary, Secondary, and Melee). In maintaining its roots, the damage buff on Melee weapons is doubled. 

• With Toxic Lash active, your weapons will trigger Toxin Status Effect on any damage instance. 
• Increased the duration from 30 seconds to 45 seconds. 
• We’ve maintained Toxic Lash’s ability to spread Spores to nearby enemies by dealing damage while active. 
• With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increased duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is no longer as Energy-hungry as she used to be, so we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.   

 

It does increase damage.

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, Xirka said:

It does increase damage.

Anyone can copy something that somebody has(n)'t tested.

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Can anyone confirm and/or prove this? Because if that's the case then the wiki is misleading as hell given it states several times it adds damage directly to the attack followed by a proc.

Sure thing.

No Toxic Lash:

Spoiler

With Toxic Lash:

Spoiler

 

[seprent]

bit of wild data i tried to compare them so i just hit them once with out lash and then with lash 

https://imgur.com/a/rCiFuRb

im bad at taking screen shots really quick so might be bad

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, Xirka said:

It does increase damage

That's what I thought, it's listed as "maintaining it's damage buff" with a separate bullet point for "guaranteed proc".

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Sure thing.

Is your proof the fact that their health doesn't go down more or something?

Because 58 damage ticks against level 155 Healers aren't going to make a noticeable difference.

Or is it the fact that the numbers aren't 30% of the weapons damage?

In which case you have to consider that toxin only does half damage to ancients and crit appears to not apply to the procs.

A far simpler test would be against a Corpus Technician or something and see if you deal immediate health damage of a value greater than the proc that follows.

[NoOneEverSaid]

She is only good for ESO nothing else.

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That's what I thought, it's listed as "maintaining it's damage buff" with a separate bullet point for "guaranteed proc".

Is your proof the fact that their health doesn't go down more or something?

Because 58 damage ticks against level 155 Healers aren't going to make a noticeable difference.

Or is it the fact that the numbers aren't 30% of the weapons damage?

In which case you have to consider that toxin only does half damage to ancients and crit appears to not apply to the procs.

A far simpler test would be against a Corpus Technician or something and see if you deal immediate health damage of a value greater than the proc that follows.

The damage (look at the crit) is exactly the same. So like i said, you won't get Total Damage multiplied by 30%, you will just get guaranteed toxin procs that scale off your toxin mods, base damage and crit damage mods and of course your power strength. While it IS an increase in damage in the way of DoTs, it's not a multiplicator to your total damage.

[DeadNightGenesis]

I think saryn is fine. Tried using saryn frame - was successful but wasn't for me. On onslaught - yes she is quite OP mostly only in first 6 instances. 

[DeMonkey]

15 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

The damage (look at the crit) is exactly the same.

Yes, and behind it are two additional damage sources. One is 56, which is the toxin damage, and one is 28 which is the proc.

You're using the lato vandal, which has a crit multiplier of 2.4.

810/2.4 is 338, assuming that Toxin Lash is based on this non crit value it'll deal about 112 damage on a shot which when halfed (because they resist toxin) is exactly 56 damage.

Hawk pls.

Edited August 22, 2018 by DeMonkey
Wrong term

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Hawk pls.

-_-

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

For example,

Toxin Lash: Total Damage x (1+30%).

These were your own words and i just proved you why this isn't right. If you wanna check damage buffers that actually increase your Total Damage, take a look at Roar or Sonar. Toxic Lash isn't.

Monkey pls..

[Xirka]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

-_-

These were your own words and i just proved you why this isn't right. If you wanna check damage buffers that actually increase your Total Damage, take a look at Roar or Sonar. Toxic Lash isn't.

Monkey pls..

After doing some testing it seems the ability is not functioning correctly in simulacrum. The buff applies /sometimes/ but not always. But there is a damage buff, most noticable when using a melee weapon, since it is applied twice.

Hawk can you try using a melee against some Butchers? That is how I got the buff to show it can work. 

[IceColdHawk]

15 minutes ago, Xirka said:

After doing some testing it seems the ability is not functioning correctly in simulacrum. The buff applies /sometimes/ but not always. But there is a damage buff, most noticable when using a melee weapon, since it is applied twice.

Hawk can you try using a melee against some Butchers? That is how I got the buff to show it can work. 

Last i checked it was the same with melees just that the toxin procs were twice as strong. I've already made a bug report about it a while ago but nothing so far.

Even if it's intended, it's hella misleading..

@DeMonkey Oh look, my build had primed target cracker included. Which means, Toxic Lash doesn't actually take your crit damage mods into account.

Nvm just weird calculation due to toxin procs ticking more than once. Crit mods do help indeed.

Edited August 22, 2018 by IceColdHawk

[Xirka]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Last i checked it was the same with melees just that the toxin procs were twice as strong. I've already made a bug report about it a while ago but nothing so far.

Even if it's intended, it's hella misleading..

Yeah,  it isn't working like it is supposed to. I see more from it out in the "real world" rather than simulacrum, but if you look at what @seprent posted here https://imgur.com/a/rCiFuRb   you can see the multiplier at work. 
"See" might be a generous term, but ... yeah

Edited August 22, 2018 by Xirka

[seprent]

1 minute ago, Xirka said:

Yeah,  it isn't working like it is supposed to. I see more from it out in the "real world" rather than simulacrum, but if you look at what @seprent posted here https://imgur.com/a/rCiFuRb   you can see the multiplier at work. 
"See" might be a generous term, but ... yeah

i like warm kinda prime colors so yeah granted im also not the biggest sayrn player i prefer harrow and i was personally unsure were to test so i went with targets that stand still and dont fight back since i just needed to hit them to see if anything is diffrent if i were weapon testing id be doing it my normal way 

build weapon >level weapon >sim to test build ideas >test build on bombard increasing from levels 20-120>field test build> return to sim if field test didnt feel good > if felt good keep it

but its late and im lazy right now 

[DeMonkey]

11 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

DeMonkey Oh look, my build had primed target cracker included. Which means, Toxic Lash doesn't actually take your crit damage mods into account

I blame the simulacrum.

Seems kinda sketchy that the amount of toxin damage dealt just so happens to match up exactly to your Lato Vandal's damage divided by it's base crit multiplier.

20 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

These were your own words

And you proved them wrong by pointing out that there might be a bug, and therefore means that as far as intended interactions go I only may or may not be wrong, making this all meaningless?

Or by pointing out that crit doesn't affect it, to which I stand by my comment.

Total damage * Toxin Lash.

Crit is Total damage * multiplier.  It just seems to happen further along in the calculation is all.

Furthermore, you explicitly stated that it doesn't add any damage, yet I see no evidence to sugest this.

Take an Opticor unmodded against a Corpus with 300 health, I'm interested to know the result.