Warframe Needs an Endgame

[--END--Rikutatis]

 

6 hours ago, Gofretko said:

Everything in Warframe has to have an option to be played solo. Warframe is not a club for bored veterans or people who have 3 other people to play with 24/7. Even if everybody had these 3 people anytime they need them, we all have bad days when we just want to do something by ourselves while casually sipping a drink and going with our own pace instead of being forced into speed we might find stressing on that particular day. We're humans, not bots.

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I find it appaling that people like you have this opinion that all game modes and every single drop of content in Warframe needs to be soloable. This is the mentality in this community that is slowly killing any sort of challenge or coop in this game. It's just a single player experience now, a bunch of autistic Tennos hopping into missions together without any sort of interaction whatsoever between them save the occasional revive (which isn't even needed cause you have more than enough revives anyway). It's an online persistent game. An MMO-lite. A coop looter shooter. Call it what you want. Coop should have been at the core of the experience. You know? Playing with other people? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should need 3 friends every single time you play. Not at all. I agree with what you said, sometimes you just want to chill and play casually for a few minutes before bed. But that's why 99.9% of the game is already solo friendly. You have the entire game for that. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for WF to not have one or two game modes requiring coop and communication. If you want the rewards you can either conform to coop for that one single game mode or buy the rewards with plat. This is just selfish to the extreme, because some people want to play solo all the time and don't want to make friends or join a clan or recruit in chat, they also don't want the rest of the player base to have the option to access that kind of coop experience (which is a huge reason why many people actually play games like these). You mention WoW, yet look at all the raids and the vast majority of pvp modes (you know, most of what you'd call endgame there). All coop. 

4 hours ago, LupisV0lk said:

Let's not forget that 9/10 times the people who are clamouring for "end game" are highly likely to be the same who'd complain, whine, moan and REEEE at the first hurdle of a challenge.

Really, and where exactly did you get this information from? Because it seems to me it's exactly the other side of the community crying for nerfs when DE implements something even vaguely challenging. 

1 hour ago, HEA-Devazone said:

* 20 min later

"WARFRAME DIDN'T JUST DIE | IT WAS MURDERED!!! - YouTube"

LMAO, this was hilarious ^^

[Gofretko]

@--END--Rikutatis Mate, with all due respect, your comment towards me is mostly assumptions and baseless negativity. :(

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I find it appaling that people like you have this opinion that all game modes and every single drop of content in Warframe needs to be soloable.

I find it appaling that you get so triggered over an entertainment form (a computer game) and how people would like to consume it -- which is an OPTIONAL choice and does not take away anything from you. Live and let live, no?

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

This is the mentality in this community that is slowly killing any sort of challenge or coop in this game.

The fact that DE is sympathetic to "should be able to solo most -- if not all -- of the game" and proves it with their actions says that your point of view is in conflict with DE. Hence you and me arguing about it is 100% pointless.

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

It's just a single player experience now, a bunch of autistic Tennos hopping into missions together without any sort of interaction whatsoever between them save the occasional revive (which isn't even needed cause you have more than enough revives anyway).

Baseless assumption. I am a 38-year old happily married man with a stressful job who absolutely loves being able to progress or farm things in Warframe without dragging my wife into it if she does not feel like doing Vor & Kril 50 times for all Miter parts to drop. It's only common sense.

(Even if there are autistic people in WF I suggest you do some reading about it because it's usually rooted in a childhood trauma and those are extremely hard to overcome even for middle-aged adult.)

I am not offended by you, mind you; I just find it baffling how aggressively you assume and dismiss other people based on nothing more but your fantasy. Don't demean, you gain nothing from it, and you might lose possible valuable future friendships in the process.

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

It's an online persistent game. An MMO-lite. A coop looter shooter. Call it what you want. Coop should have been at the core of the experience. You know? Playing with other people?

Says who? Look at Warframe right now. Only thing I cannot solo right now is Teralyst & Co., and that's because I am lazy and have not tried seriously. Every single other challenge in the game up to that point could be soloed and that's a good thing because it promotes choice and enables different moods to not have the game slam a door in your face.

 

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should need 3 friends every single time you play. Not at all. I agree with what you said, sometimes you just want to chill and play casually for a few minutes before bed. But that's why 99.9% of the game is already solo friendly. You have the entire game for that. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for WF to not have one or two game modes requiring coop and communication. If you want the rewards you can either conform to coop for that one single game mode or buy the rewards with plat.

Here in my yes you do a 180-degree U-turn and we are suddenly in agreement, weird.

If there was this 1% of the game which was gated behind coop play then I would absolutely buy the rewards with plat but then I fear that the people like you would scream "they don't deserve the rewards, we worked for them and then they only buy it, is warframe pay-to-win now?!?!", as it usually happens in every game that tries something similar.

Additionally I am sure there are plenty of players who would go berserk at the idea even though I am OK with it, so you will have to take your issue with them because here we are in full agreement.

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

This is just selfish to the extreme, because some people want to play solo all the time and don't want to make friends or join a clan or recruit in chat, they also don't want the rest of the player base to have the option to access that kind of coop experience (which is a huge reason why many people actually play games like these).

You have no right to claim this is selfish for everybody who wants it. You have no idea of people's motivation. You concocted a scenario in your head and are now presenting it as universal fact. Just don't do that. Critical thinking and constructive discussion flies out the window with such blanket statements.

I want to play solo because I am stressed and because I have witnessed the toxicity of group play many times in my life -- in personal endeavors, at work, in games, everywhere you can think of we the people can be in life during any random moment, I've seen that toxicity. Many people are like you describe -- selfish, that much is true. Which does not give you the right to condemn people like me who despise conflict and prefer to keep clear of it to preserve their sanity and peace of mind, as being selfish. Again, I cannot get offended but you are going way overboard here claiming things out of thin air and having zero context of the solo players' motivation.

If gaming is an important part of your life you use to validate yourself then good for you. I am past that phase and don't need the validation. You are looking at this way too seriously and are resorting to doom-saying. Take a chill pill, lean back on your chair and understand it's just a game -- and thus a form of entertainment -- and everybody has equal rights to their way of consuming the entertainment. Your point of view is not more important than others. Our Homo Sapiens ego often has a lot of trouble with that simple idea.

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

You mention WoW, yet look at all the raids and the vast majority of pvp modes (you know, most of what you'd call endgame there). All coop. 

I mention WoW more like a negative example, sorry if that was unclear. Me being forced to tolerate a guy who cannot do the same DPS as my AI pet or as myself scratching my balls and playing with one hand while watching a stream on my other display... is one of the main reasons I left. I don't mind carrying or helping people but when you see the same in 8-9 out of 10 "teams" then it eventually gets to you and you become spiteful: "I ain't spending my precious time to carry a lazy bum, I hope they suffer because they lost a good multi-role player and it will be a little harder for them to leech now". I was feeling like that all the time and one morning I suddenly realized it and simply uninstalled the game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

I am not willing to fight you over this but I will express it as a fact regardless: most humans are indeed selfish and downright horrible in any team setting. There are countless memes about school group projects where one person always does 90% of the job, isn't there? And in almost every work team you have the quiet man or woman who carries most of the work while most of everybody else sips coffee and laughs at the terrace smoking area. Take any random human group and it is very likely that 80-90% of them are leeches in one way or another. At 38 I've seen enough of that to last me three other lifetimes and I am taking special precautions to stay clear of that as much as humanly possible. That's a personal motivation which is specific to my persona and life and it is not up for a discussion -- so people like you going around and claiming that people like myself are "autistic" and make other broad claims just come off as ignorant and quite funny to read. When I mentioned to my wife that apparently we are autistic, she had a good laugh, so something good came out of this after all.

 

Apologies to everybody else for polluting the thread but I have seen an opportunity to provide feedback to a seemingly negative person with the hopes they use it well.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Gofretko
I suck at English

[orangescythe]

@Grofetko

I agree with you. Just one day of attempting to farm Mutagen Samples was enough for me to give up the idea of a solo clan completely. Playing with others even in a pre made group was really painful. Especially since I felt forced to do it.

[MudShadow]

There is end game it's just that players progress past the end game. When you have 1000+ hours on the game you've probably gone past end-game. But If you put yourself in the perspective of a new player however, then there is a lot of content to push towards. I know one co-worker who plays Warframe and has 300 hours on it and still hasn't fully completed the star chart. 

[--END--Rikutatis]

1 hour ago, Gofretko said:

snip

I won't bother going through everything you said, mostly because a good chunk of it is off topic, but the bottom line is: you're saying you just want to play the game the way you enjoy and prefer, which is solo and without having to deal with others. So far, so good. That's perfectly valid.

But on the same token, you don't seem to realize that whenever you comment on a thread like Railjack (which is what started this discussion) to complain to DE that coop is bad and you want it to be solo friendly, yes you are basically trying to deny those of us who like coop and play these online games for coop the opportunity to have that kind of experience in WF. Trials was the only truly coop mode left in WF and it got the axe as we all know. Eidolons is coop if you want to speedrun, but can also be soloed.

So yea, whether you want to admit it to yourself or not, it is very selfish behavior whenever people come to the forums to say things like "WF shouldn't have coop, everything needs to be soloable" (pretty much what you said), or "PVP is bad and should be removed from the game or never touched again" or "good riddance, I'm glad trials were removed, I hated them", or "this game has no room for challenging endgame, we just want our power fantasy". All things you read a lot in these forums whenever someone tries to make a feedback thread to discuss endgame, pvp, coop, raids or whatever. So I'm sorry if I came off too aggressive towards you, it's not personal, I'm just really tired of these responses in every thread here asking for endgame or challenge. Because when you strip it all down, what those people are really saying is: "I don't like coop, pvp, high difficulty or w/e, therefore I don't want DE to implement any of that so that the other players who might enjoy it have a chance to play their favorite game modes as well". 

EDIT: off topic, but just FYI autism has nothing to do with childhood traumas despite what some people might claim. It cannot be "overcome", it's a life condition that you carry with you forever. 

Edited September 15, 2018 by --END--Rikutatis

[(PSN)Crixus044]

21 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Ok....

How do you "improve a.i." ? It's not just some switch they can flip.

How do you just boost enemy levels? what does that do? It'll simply cater to the meta. That's the last thing the devs want to introduce again. There's too much of a disparity in power levels to simply scale enemies.  Either they become unbearable bullet sponges to all but a few frames or one shot all but a few frames.  Sortie level is kind of The Sweet Spot where any frame can do the content.

Maybe you are being narrow minded in thinking that Warframe end game has to be about dark souls difficulty or chasing the meta. It's not. It's about collecting. Zaws, rivens, grinding is the end game.

I'm not sure what you're tryna say here, but I'm respond to the improving AI part with an absurdly obvious example. Have you ever seen the infested spit boogers at you whenever you are jumping too high or stand out of their reach? This was not there before. It was implemented with the sole purpose of negating the old meta of stranding on ledges and never being attacked by infested. This made me feel sorry for infested, because the AI works that if it cannot find a path to its primary target, it'll spit boogers at it. This caused some hilariously easy ways to deal with infested and looked low-grade from the player standpoint.

In defense, sometimes they'd just stand around spitting boogers at the cryopod. Other times, they'd spit at ya from a mile away. Mars' arid desert is a haven for this with all the different elevations. Once infested get within sight, just chill with protective barrier and go to target practice. Why didn't they just fix the AI to create vertical paths? Run on the walls and leap at players? They have the coding. Have enemies think smart, create paths, group with smart combos like having nullifiers sit back and have enemies group up with them instead of a forward charge. I'd like DE to have a test Lab, where they have one player as the tenno and others as the enemies, and see what the enemies would and should be doing. This is some of what i mean.

Boosting levels hardly caters to the meta, in fact, it'll kill most metas. Of course, there'll always be a meta, but if you think that what's used today is all that can be used in higher levels, i suggest you learn a bit more about the game, and i say this with benevolence. You have some ways to go in learning the game and all its secrets. Any frame and any weapon can and will reach level cap with a smart tactic, a tactic that a vet with the experience and gear required would have? Wait.....has the gear and knows the way? It's as if it is designed for them. Who would've thought? Lol

Sortie is far from the sweet spot. It's considered low for players who've developed the skill, obtained the gear and have the experience to develop tactics to use it. If you don't have it, don't fret, nobody just woke up with it, but it is there and growing, as seen from the massive love of endgame youtubers and their growing discord channels. Why would you leave these players out to dry just because you're not a fan of their needs?

The term bullet sponge has been demoted into something bad, but it really isn't. The correct term is a boxing term we use called tomato cans. If enemies are just a bunch of tomato cans, where they hardly do anything, just taking hits and bleeding out, THEN you have a problem, but a bullet sponge enemy is good to have on the field. Think of it this way, there's multiple facets to difficulty. Each involves a challenge to an aspect of our perks. DPS , EHp, and mechanics. You need a challenge to all 3. Nox are terrific examples of enemies that have all 3 or maybe 2 out of 3. They have the dps, they have mechanical barriers, and they have high health. Does every enemy need to be a nox? That'd be cancer incarnate. But the idea had to be there.

Nullifers are great examples of mechanical difficulty. Improving AI is another. Field Bosses like corrupted vor, lua sentients, and nox are great mechanical challenges. But mechanical challenge isn't everything.

EHp and DPS are opposites. They are the challenge to eachother. Damage challenges ehp and ehp challenges dps. Our dps has gone way out of control, and this is seen by the meta's destruction of CC. Why control when you can kill? This is why enemies that won't just die on sight is a terrific addition. This is easily achievable with a boost to levels. Now, tell me the last time your nidus died in a mission, or a mesa. How is it that Saryn is a suitable tank when she isn't even designed as one? These guys need to fight enemies with more danger, hence an increase in levels fixes this. Afraid of being one shot? There's an app for that, called teammates. One guy has dps, one guy heals, one guy protects. Look at that, it's the holy trinity. We have squads and synergy and it works just as it did before.

Want to do it by yourself? I can dig it. I'm a solo player too, but it's illogical to not expect vastly increased difficulty. It ain't impossible. Watch Summit or Life of Rio on YouTube and twitch. They solo 100 waves of defense or 3 hour survivals with a variety of frames. Now mission duration aside, they publicly show that enemies at those levels are not impossible solo.

Not sure you understand what will come of this. Endgame as a game term is not the same as the dictionary definition. It isn't the end goal (in which your right, grinding is the goal), it's the end level. Collection and decoration is not the final level. The term fashion frame is true endgame started as a joke by Tactical Potato, it isn't a serious phrase. I mean it CAN be for you, in which case, you should have no problem with this addition, but your endgame isn't everyone's endgame. Every player currently can reach MR 24 or 25 with the hundreds of low level missions they have now, and missions with boosted levels ain't gonna change that one bit. This won't change what you can do. It's just an outlet for those looking for it.

For some people, their final level is collection. For other's it's decoration. Some people love endurance running. For some, conclave is all their looking for, while there lives a sect of exclusive duelers. For all these styles, the goal of grinding is easily acheivable for all and as long as it stays this way, there will be no problem, but the outlet is not there for all. Even dojos are getting decorations now. Collection is always gonna be possible. Duelers have the dojo ring and friendly fire simulacrum. Conclavers have conclave, lunaro and now frame fighter. Unless endurance runners have 6+ hours to spare, they don't have an outlet. You think endurance runners are there for the time? I mean SOME are, in which case any endless mission is good for them, but 90% of endurance runners (or players who wish they could be endurance runners) are there for the levels. This outlet with extreme "dark souls difficulty" can be brought in without interrupting the casual community.

[AJ5511]

On ‎2018‎-‎09‎-‎13 at 3:15 PM, Ouroboros13 said:

It's FREEEEEEEEEE , just enjoy bro

lol so true, I hate it when people start getting super needy (not talking about endgame), its free to play.... 

[(PSN)Chel-El]

How about Eidolons and Elite SO? Together with Mot and maybe the Index these are the difficult content for me because unlike the OP, I have to carry optimal gear.

If one is tired of winning a marathon, then why not conquer a triathlon amirite? 

And to be fair with the game, 3 months is simply not enough for someone to gauge its content. OP’s pals who left at that time are not at their prime, so we can’t rely on their departure as a sign of anything. 

 

We can’t stop progress. The early high level survival with bosses is coming anyway. 

[LupisV0lk]

8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

We'v HAD challenging and intelligent enemies. theyve been nerfed every time. Even Grineer  grunts had their blunt walls nerfed because people didnt like the instant cover they gave themselves. Their snipers were not only given a laser sight to telegraph (good change), they had their accuracy dropped to nothing. There are many more examples where the community pusshed and pushed until DE nerfs an enemy into becoming a slightly different kind of fodder instead of some that changes the battlefield. 

Im not saying that the same people wanting a challenge are also the same complaining about enemies, but as a whole the community is bi-polar. They want a challenge, but dont want to be challenged. 

Yep, that's pretty much the issue.

[Gofretko]

3 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

But on the same token, you don't seem to realize that whenever you comment on a thread like Railjack (which is what started this discussion) to complain to DE that coop is bad and you want it to be solo friendly, yes you are basically trying to deny those of us who like coop and play these online games for coop the opportunity to have that kind of experience in WF. Trials was the only truly coop mode left in WF and it got the axe as we all know. Eidolons is coop if you want to speedrun, but can also be soloed.

1. I don't "complain" on threads about coop activities and never will. I can tune in and say "gating content behind forced group play is a sure-fire way to invite more toxicity" but in the end it's DE who decides what to incorporate or not.

2. You don't know yet if Railjack's coop is axed. Stop doom-saying.

3. The quotes you wrote do not apply to me, I didn't say those nor did I imply them.

3 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Because when you strip it all down, what those people are really saying is: "I don't like coop, pvp, high difficulty or w/e, therefore I don't want DE to implement any of that so that the other players who might enjoy it have a chance to play their favorite game modes as well".  

Nonsense. Difficulty and solo are not mutually exclusive. You can have difficult content while soloing AND being in coop (sorties are a good example at least for my current progression level; I find them hard alone and I find them hard in a 2-person team). I do like difficulty AND playing solo so your point here is based on a false dichotomy.

You act like other players take away your enjoyment. May I remind you that it's DE who ultimately introduces or removes something from the game? I hear right here in the forums that there are many examples in which DE introduced something even if a lot of players complained. So there's your answer -- no, other players do not take away your enjoyment.

3 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

EDIT: off topic, but just FYI autism has nothing to do with childhood traumas despite what some people might claim. It cannot be "overcome", it's a life condition that you carry with you forever. 

All the more reason not to use autism as a demeaning word for describing the solo players as you did in your previous post, don't you think? "Some autistic tenno..." etc.

You can make arguments without demeaning people.

 

Have a good evening.

[Methanoid]

endgame is unfortunatly going away from warframe to play other stuff and returning later to see what new stuff landed, as with a lot of "always in development" games, endgame simply doesnt happen because as the older players that want more endgame leave, as many or more new players arrive so endgame becomes a thing that just isnt required.  hardcore fans of the game woudl still hang around regardless as with many other games that have or have had the same issue..... for a long time.

At 1 point endgame was either amusing yourself with endless missions or making new challenge accounts like remaining MR0, or going MR5 for the bare minimum for all quests and just seeing what you could do there to keep you in the game, as the gaem is now tho the low MR challenges arent realistic due to changes in the game over time, I'm not sure what other things could be done now other than good old endless survival/def/etc.

It's because people like myself end up on endless missions again in 2018 just like they did in 2013/2014 that i keep hoping for the next "big" thing to be more diverse procedurally generated lego rooms/corridors/etc so they dont look as generic, steve once mused about random room changes within each tile segment on his twitch new player runthrough years ago and that was something that got my hopes up in a big way (it was that same stream he mentioned the dated looking corpus tileset and bam we have that revamped tileset soon, so who knows) but its either an idea thats shelved or just a looooooong way off.  Gief some variety to those samey grineer galleon rooms, t-junctions or dead ends even if its just decorations or lockers.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Methanoid

[Methanoid]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

How about Eidolons and Elite SO? Together with Mot and maybe the Index these are the difficult content for me because unlike the OP, I have to carry optimal gear.

If one is tired of winning a marathon, then why not conquer a triathlon amirite? 

And to be fair with the game, 3 months is simply not enough for someone to gauge its content. OP’s pals who left at that time are not at their prime, so we can’t rely on their departure as a sign of anything.

We can’t stop progress. The early high level survival with bosses is coming anyway. 

In my case at least, i have zero interest in tweeny operators/fishing/mining/etc so godzilla hunting at awkward camera angles and lure herding is something i have zero interest in, Elite-SO was actually promising but ended up a wasted opportunity, its just a small survival with weak rewards totally not fitting the challenge involved, esp the terrible mastery fodder weapons which belong in the normal sanctuary onslaught (a horrific droprate for the likes of a MR4 braton for elite-so is just mind boggling).  A lot are still going to gravitate towards the bog standard tried and tested endless missions like they have done for the past 4+ years which is a shame this far in.

As for index, not sure how others feel but in my case i never have fun in there, its simply not varied enough, it's just a place to goto when I know baro is coming and wants all my  credits.

[Methanoid]

10 hours ago, MudShadow said:

There is end game it's just that players progress past the end game. When you have 1000+ hours on the game you've probably gone past end-game. But If you put yourself in the perspective of a new player however, then there is a lot of content to push towards. I know one co-worker who plays Warframe and has 300 hours on it and still hasn't fully completed the star chart. 

on the other hand i also know a handful+ of friends/family that have tried the game and just walked in under a week due to the same age old issues that has plagued warframe from day 1, which is a lack of accurate information ingame and the utter need to rely on the wiki site to know 95% of how the game works or where and how to get stuff or progress.  It took a while to get an actual new player tutorial added but its still only covering the absolute bare minimum of whats required to hold a new players interest before frustration just makes them walk.

Even totalbiscuit god rest his soul, with his love for the game often commented on these very shortcomings nearly every time he revisited the game and its many changes but those issues of old are still here alive and kicking.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Methanoid

[orangescythe]

1 hour ago, Methanoid said:

on the other hand i also know a handful+ of friends/family that have tried the game and just walked in under a week due to the same age old issues that has plagued warframe from day 1, which is a lack of accurate information ingame and the utter need to rely on the wiki site to know 95% of how the game works or where and how to get stuff or progress.  It took a while to get an actual new player tutorial added but its still only covering the absolute bare minimum of whats required to hold a new players interest before frustration just makes them walk.

Even totalbiscuit god rest his soul, with his love for the game often commented on these very shortcomings nearly every time he revisited the game and its many changes but those issues of old are still here alive and kicking.

That's something that Steve did mention in an interview that while talking with other industry veterans and with their own experience tweaking the new player experience never seemed to significantly impact the retention stats. So that's a low priority for them.

[Methanoid]

19 hours ago, orangescythe1990 said:

That's something that Steve did mention in an interview that while talking with other industry veterans and with their own experience tweaking the new player experience never seemed to significantly impact the retention stats. So that's a low priority for them.

never say never.

[SilentMobius]

On 2018-09-15 at 6:59 PM, Gofretko said:

I find it appaling that you get so triggered over an entertainment form (a computer game) and how people would like to consume it -- which is an OPTIONAL choice and does not take away anything from you. Live and let live, no?...

All of this post is gold.

I've been playing online games since the time I was begging for an acoustically coupled modem and there is has been one universal truism that has never failed me:

No game has ever been improved by suddenly pivoting game play into a "how may internet friends do you have" popularity contest once you hit point X in the primary progression mechanic.

All that breeds is toxic resentment and the "50 DKP minus" mindset.

The trials were terrible, both technically (they were fragile as hell) and as a shoehorned forced teaming mechanic. No developer should lock content based on a popularity contest, it's bad ROI on the content and it encourages "Social PvP" as players become more and more consumed with curating their peer group while also needing as big a pool of willing followers as possible for the repeating forced-teaming content. Which is the a recipe for co-dependence, gaming-stockolm syndrome and a toxic environment.

Different people have different thresholds for that toxic environment which is why that kind of gameplay persists, but that's the problem with those with a high tolerance, they just don't see the damage it causes, until their game only consists of a few "lifers" and the servers start getting shut down.

So yes, all content should be soloable, hard-red-line, non-negotiable, stink will be kicked up, every, single, time.

[SilentMobius]

2 hours ago, Methanoid said:

never say never.

Obviously, they've already done is once, so they have data on how much it helped...

and haven't done in since...