Warframe Needs an Endgame

[_Summit_]

3 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

I'm not going to jump to conclusions, I just want some clarification;

What do you mean by "die", exactly? Are you referring to the inevitability of online games coming to an end at some point, and that if DE doesn't act soon and implement late game content, Warframe will have never achieved an actual endgame? If so, I feel that's just pointing out the obvious.

Or do you mean Warframe will die because it never achieved an endgame?

I feel like Warframe will die much sooner then later assuming they don't implement some kind of end game/ challenging content. I should have clarified that in the initial post. 

[--END--Rikutatis]

I was going to write a more analytical post about this, but honestly I'm just so shocked at the stats I saw for the upcoming Gram Prime that I think it pretty much sums up the state of the game currently: 

1) "Endgame" enemy levels and challenge have been the same since The War Within and sorties (lvl 80-100). That's like ages ago;

2) Every mainstream Youtube build video tests their builds against lvl 155 in the Simulacrum, showing the weapons and powers completely obliterating that level in a few seconds at most, and  many times doing that as an AoE as well! So clearly lvl 80-100 is hardly a challenge for what we have. That's one shot territory for us, actually. Endurance runners can show you the builds actually go much further to levels in the high hundreds, sometimes even thousands. 

3) And yet, with each new update DE adds more power creep, buffs operator utility and arcanes, adds weapons with better stats than what we had before (Gram Prime with a riven disposition 5 and those stats lmfao), etc. Why more power and more damage if we already one shot all the content the game has to offer? 

Basically because of this: 

11 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Warframe is a stupid skinner box treadmill, you just realized it too late. 

Because at this point people are just running that skinner box treadmill, asking for more power creep just for the sake of seeing the pretty red crits on their screen against lvl 20 enemies and throwing a fit if they think the newest frame or weapon is subpar. And DE keeps complying. Right now the "endgame" of Warframe is just this super trivial and casual power fantasy of people who enjoy pressing one button to wipe the whole map in order to amass more power god knows why because they're already one shotting everything in the game anyways. 

Anyone who has played other MMOs and similar online looter games outside of Warframe knows this isn't the way things have to be. There's usually a development cycle of: new content > power creep > higher level and challenge > which demands more power creep > leading to even higher difficulty, etc. 

In Warframe we just have the power creep. 

 

[o0Despair0o]

Just because the game is focused on level 30-50 and not 300+ doesn't mean it's going to die because it's "too easy".

 

Like, nobody is telling you to use overpowered Rivens and Meta equipment dealing 2 million damage per shot. And you're complaining about "endgame" ? If being the most overpowered being in existence and dominating FashionFrame isn't "endgame" enough for you, maybe you should play something else.

 

Seriously. Cry me a river. This game has survived 5 years without any real endgame, and guess what, it keeps growing.

[_Summit_]

3 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

Like, nobody is telling you to use overpowered Rivens and Meta equipment dealing 2 million damage per shot. And you're complaining about "endgame" ? If being the most overpowered being in existence and dominating FashionFrame isn't "endgame" enough for you, maybe you should play something else

This is the issue I'm not using meta equipment or rivens and still breezing through the game. There is basically no point to rivens in the current game, they are irrelevant for the content provided. Being super OP is the exact opposite of endgame as I define it endgame should be challenging, and overcoming those very hard challenges that a game throws at you is rewarding. 

[-Jieun-]

DE get money from new and returning players. Many players are ignorant on warframes' capabilities which means they struggle with the current content. Some vets are woke about warframes and want more, but vets are a lot more likely to keep playing even if they are dissatisfied and don't need to buy plat/prime access as much. So DE will continue to focus around their breadwinners. DE is also very bad at the game from vets eyes, which means as a whole, they don't understand vets woes. As long as the general community and DE are ignorant about how easy the game is, there will not be change. Maybe, if through the efforts of many community leaders and players, people became a lot more aware of how easy things are, the general opinion could shift and DE would be willing to change as well. 

... Is what I want to say but look at raids. Raid School Bus made incredible server growth as it taught more and more people how stress free raids could be. So many people became competent at raids, and while some of the bigger community members were still slow at them, I would say the general opinion on raids was actually changed a little, in part thanks to the immense amount of work RSB put in. Now, a ton of people I used to socialize and play with have moved on from warframe. 

On a side note, warframe's are extremely powerful in strength but also speed. Speedrunning the Law of Retribution was a lot of fun for some people because the big tilesets complimented swift gameplay. Eidolons, at their highest form, is taking turns shooting a rock. ESO is taking turns releasing one's charged up ability while being virtually afk. As someone who regularly does chill 5x3's, I still find several things distasteful about eidolons and the players/mentality around them but maybe that is too off-topic. These new game modes are very un-engaging so I hope have something exciting and well planned out if they introduce more late game content. Best of luck to the endurance community, you guys are very patient, having to wait hours just to start playing the content you want. 

[ZirkonX]

38 minutes ago, Defion said:

I strongly doubt that from which data did you pulled that number? Or is it something you just made up?

Warframe will not see a "end game" because warframe is basicly a evolving game sometimes it goes fast and sometimes (like this year) it goes a bit slower, but it will never end.

If you really want a "end game" try closing the game I think that surely be epic "end game" you @_Summit_ seek.

 

It is by calculating the steam charts 🙂 
You don't understand what i mean tho, game is very fun prolly one of the best games i have ever played. but After u reach Mr 25 and got everything is still fun but when there is nothing u cant beat it becomes a little boring and u play on big updates only. You will see how on the fortuna update playerbase will rise up to 100K players but in 1-2 months again it drop downs to 50k 🙂

[ZirkonX]

 .   .    .

Edited September 13, 2018 by ZirkonX

[Kyoresh]

9 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

Just because the game is focused on level 30-50 and not 300+ doesn't mean it's going to die because it's "too easy".

 

Like, nobody is telling you to use overpowered Rivens and Meta equipment dealing 2 million damage per shot. And you're complaining about "endgame" ? If being the most overpowered being in existence and dominating FashionFrame isn't "endgame" enough for you, maybe you should play something else.

 

Seriously. Cry me a river. This game has survived 5 years without any real endgame, and guess what, it keeps growing.

you dont even need "overpowered Rivens" or even Potatoes to obliterate everything outside of Endurance Runs 

[ZirkonX]

2 minutes ago, Kyoresh said:

you dont even need "overpowered Rivens" or even Potatoes to obliterate everything outside of Endurance Runs 

So true lol you don't even need any forma to do 90% of the games content.

[Aleksundar]

Its 5 years old, and its playerbase has almost doubled every six months since it came out. Thats "dying" in your mind? For every veteran that leaves after 1000k+hours, there are 5 more people who start their journey. This game isnt going anywhere anytime soon, and if you are tired, go take a break. There'll be more stuff waiting when you come back :] 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

we've had no endgame for 5 years.. and we're still going pretty damn strong, so that title is false.

has it ever occurred to people that maybe, just maybe... Warframe might not NEED an Endgame? maybe it's not the right direction to go in with a game like this? when Warframe actually NEEDS something, it usually gets added. it might take months, years even, but it will get added at some point if people bring it up enough. DE haven't added whatever it is people consider "endgame" these days, so perhaps they believe it's just unnecessary.

 

[babywrath]

1 hour ago, _Summit_ said:

I've had several friends start playing this game only to leave after 3 months once they realize that there's no real content beyond sortie level. 

WHAT? 3 months of gaming and they're already bored of sorties? With that kind of dedication/expectations, your friends will find Warframe boring no matter what you or DE does. Have they even tried Tridolon farming?  Im also pretty sure they haven't even tried all the warframes yet. Or even half probably. 

Warframe is soo sooo much more than difficulty and game modes/mechanics. It is first and foremost a collector's game. Its how they even rank our mastery level.

Besides, even if there was some super difficult nigh impossible mission mode people would find a way to cheese it and everybody would start complaining that there is no end game again. When eidolon started out people complained that it was too difficult, then they watched videos on how to cheese it and everybody started complaining again that there is no end-game.

[AlphaPHENIX]

49 minutes ago, Defion said:

 

Yea because everyone plays through steam.......🤔

I don't

Spoiler

And I get the sarcasm, just wanted to confirm.

 

[Zimzala]

"I am bored with the game and since like most people I surround myself with people like me, all my friends that play the game are also bored, because we are all pros that can do it with junk, therefore, everyone will get bored when they master the game."

That's what I read in the OP. (sarcastic, I know)

The lifespan if the game, just like any game, will simply vary from player to player.

It is up to the player to understand when they have simply mastered/outgrown/no longer enjoy a game and move on.

No game can keep anyone forever, including the ones with this fabled nirvana of 'endgame', it does not exist, other than playing the stock market.

This game is, right now IMO, a fun, colorful, power-fantasy horde-killer. 

Like anyone that loves the game, I am not advocating nothing gets added, but this endless difficulty so many gamers seem to want from a single game, to challenge them forever, is not, IME, something to be found in any video game, once you have mastered the game.

This constant refrain on game forums for years and years is one of the things you can count on to read, on every single forum, because it is not possible to quench.

[(PSN)ChiefDevilEggs]

Well then there’s nothing to worry about. ☺️

[_Summit_]

3 hours ago, Zimzala said:

It is up to the player to understand when they have simply mastered/outgrown/no longer enjoy a game and move on.

No game can keep anyone forever, including the ones with this fabled nirvana of 'endgame', it does not exist, other than playing the stock market.

This game is, right now IMO, a fun, colorful, power-fantasy horde-killer. 

Like anyone that loves the game, I am not advocating nothing gets added, but this endless difficulty so many gamers seem to want from a single game, to challenge them forever, is not, IME, something to be found in any video game, once you have mastered the game.

This constant refrain on game forums for years and years is one of the things you can count on to read, on every single forum, because it is not possible to quench.

I understand that endless challenge isn't going to be implemented. The issue with warframe is that the discrepancy between the content that players are capable of doing and content that's provided is huge. Out of all the games I've played in the past Warframe is by far the worst offender of this, so much so that it de-motivates many players from obtaining better gear as it's totally uneeded. This is exactly why I don't have the drive to obtain rivens or forma weapons/warframes over and over again. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by _Summit_

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, _Summit_ said:

I understand that endless challenge isn't going to implemented. The issue with warframe is that the discrepancy between the content that players are capable of doing and content that's provided is huge. Out of all the games I've played in the past Warframe is by far the worst offender of this, so much so that it de-motivates many players from obtaining better gear as it's totally uneeded. This is exactly why I don't have the drive to obtain rivens or forma weapons/warframes over and over again. 

All good.

That does not nullify the all the people playing and continuing to play the game as it stands.

So, you might just be better at games and/or you might not be the exact demographic the developers want to attract?

Not all players of the game can actually do what you describe - not all players are pros, not all players _care_ about being challenged.

The players I have encountered that really love the game are collectors, not challenge seekers.

You throw out things like 'many players' with no stats as well. That just screams more personal anecdotal evidence and bias.

There are literally millions of poeple that have played the game, they come and go as the game is fun or not for them and while the lack of challenge you describe is certainly a reason some number leave, all the hard data says what you see as a lack of challenge is not hurting the games lifespan enough in the big picture for it to be an issue.

Again, I am not advocating for DE to avoid adding add a higher level of challenge if they choose, I am simply in complete and total disagreement that the need for doing so is as important as the few forum posters that push for it seem to think it is.

DE has a fun game that does just fine and seems to be rolling right along with a forward looking vision that is simply not what some players want to play.

[Vox_Preliator]

Gee, remember how Team Fortress 2 has been declared dead almost weekly for ten years straight despite, right now, being the eleventh most-played game on Steam?

"Warframe needs an Endgame" is an arguably true statement, "Warframe would be better with an Endgame" is a more accurate and useful statement, but "Warframe will die without an Endgame" just doesn't hold water.

This is a good discussion to have, but acting like Chicken Little doesn't help anyone.

[_Summit_]

3 hours ago, Zimzala said:

There are literally millions of poeple that have played the game, they come and go as the game is fun or not for them and while the lack of challenge you describe is certainly a reason some number leave, all the hard data says what you see as a lack of challenge is not hurting the games lifespan enough in the big picture for it to be an issue.

Again, I am not advocating for DE to avoid adding add a higher level of challenge if they choose, I am simply in complete and total disagreement that the need for doing so is as important as the few forum posters that push for it seem to think it is.

DE has a fun game that does just fine and seems to be rolling right along with a forward looking vision that is simply not what some players want to play.

I see what your saying think we're just going to have to agree to disagree though. Through my personal experience I see it as a very big issue and something that's hindering the game's future potential. 

[_Summit_]

3 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Gee, remember how Team Fortress 2 has been declared dead almost weekly for ten years straight despite, right now, being the eleventh most-played game on Steam?

"Warframe needs an Endgame" is an arguably true statement, "Warframe would be better with an Endgame" is a more accurate and useful statement, but "Warframe will die without an Endgame" just doesn't hold water.

This is a good discussion to have, but acting like Chicken Little doesn't help anyone.

Yep, I'll admit title was clickbait that was mainly just to start the discussion tho, probably would have been better to use something different.

 

[Zimzala]

3 minutes ago, _Summit_ said:

I see what your saying think we're just going to have to agree to disagree though. Through my personal experience I see it as a very big issue and something that's hindering the game's future potential. 

Look at it like this.

Do you want the game to succeed?

If so, IMO, you have to look beyond your 'personal experience' and hone in on facts and hard data.

There is no hard data at this time, other than the fact DE and WF seem to be doing fine and the playerbase continues to increase.

Revenue seems to follow that.

The last times DE added challenging content, the natives revolted from what I hear.

So, there just are no facts and data to back up a claim that the lack of challenge is a dire threat to the games survival.

The facts speak for themselves, IMO, much louder than a small vocal minroty of forum posters, bored with the game, do.

This 'sky will fall unless' line of reasoning/debate method is just not even the way to _start_ a good conversation on the subject.

[FashionFrame]

Warframe can't have an end game, because it has constant updates, and is constantly evolving. If they implement an "end game", it won't last long, because we continue to evolve and becoming stronger with every passing update.

If you want end game, play something like WoW, where they have literal ends, such as dungeons, weapons and armor, they are all an end. Warframe can't have that. Only way I can see that happening, is if it's like WoW, where you have yearly DLC that locks you to levels and gear, where you can't progress further than what they give. 

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

Warframe is a stupid skinner box treadmill, you just realized it too late. 

Are people really not allowed to like Warframe because, well, they like it?

[Joe_Barbarian]

Have we really got another one of these threads?

We have more content and more challenging content on the way:

Elite Alerts
Railjack (rofl, archwing, so many people don't have that levelled up yet)
Fortuna
Ton Hawks skateboard pro K-Drive
Raids will eventually come back
And even more Quests on the way.

Welcome to the PC community, please leave your The game is going to die memes at the front door.

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Joe_Barbarian

[(PSN)the-creeperman]

2 hours ago, _Summit_ said:

Warframe Will Die Without an Endgame