Ash Sucks

[(PSN)ifihateyou]

So the Nezha rework got me thinking about other frames.

 

So I use Ash a lot, and I’ve realized that his kit pisses me off, as it doesn’t work well with Solo play. Now when I say that, here’s what I mean. 

So for a focus school, Zenurik is obviously the best option if you want end game, as it’s the only way he can spam all his sh*t. Now I’d really like to be able to use Naramon, as it compliments his actual kit more than just giving him energy. Naramon + Bladestorm + Arcane Fury + Arcane Trickery/Strike is extremely powerful, but not worth using because this game sucks at energy distribution. And when I say that, I mean without Zenurik, there’s no way to keep your energy up at high levels, as rage wont cut it and we all know why (I hope y’all know why cuz I’m not saying it). So unless you’re a social butterfly who likes to play with Trinities and Harrows, then you can forget about doing anything cool with Ash that isn’t basic af.

This is an actual problem for someone who wants diverse builds (me), because Naramon is like a major building block for what I just explained. It does NOT have the same effect with Zenurik and that grinds my gears.

Now every melee frame doesn’t have this problem because a lot of them are tanky enough to throw rage on there, but Ash isn’t. At all. 

Now I want someone to disagree and tell me I suck, because I hate the fact that Zenurik is just a bandaid for the fact that this game is stingy as a mf with those energy balls. 

Now before anybody goes into full Clem mode trying to tell me how great their Ash build is, I don’t think he really sucks, but the game mechanics prevent him from being used to his full potential in Solo play, and that’s kinda bad for a “solo frame”, especially for people who like to play alone (me because I hate everything and everyone)

[Ventasis]

Have you tried investing into an Arcane Energize set? It pretty much removes the need for Zenurik. 

[GnarlsDarkley]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)BEN_drowned__ said:

So for a focus school, Zenurik is obviously the best option if you want end game, as it’s the only way he can spam all his sh*t.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Squad_Energy_Restore_(Large) 

[(PSN)ifihateyou]

Oh sorry, I forgot to say this

 

1. I don’t have Arcane Energize but I’ll take it for the freeskie if anybody is feeling generous

2. I don’t use pads at all. The point of this post was for me to complain about how Ash isn’t self sufficient without Zenurik. Just look at Nekros. He doesn’t even need Zenurik and he can still spam whatever he wants. 

Then I don’t even think I have to get into the fact that those are consumables and aren’t even considered apart of the build. So nah, you can keep those pads @GnarlesDarkley

[SneakyErvin]

But why do you wanna waste all that to buff up bladestorm? I mean you can just stack a decent amount of power stength, good efficiency and seeking shuriken and pretty much faceroll everything with your shurikens aswell as stealth damage melee. Bring some gas weapons along and nothing will be able to do anything. IMO Bladestorm is just a nice additional thing vs bosses (if they last long enough), for everything else it just slows down the kill speed.

And with maxed out efficiency neither shurikens or stealth cost anything.

edit: And comparing Nekros with Ash is like comparing apples to submarines. They are two different types of frames, one if offensive, the other very much not so. Nekros has nothing to spam really and his "best" build takes up pretty much all mod slots to get him to work, and even then he can only do one thing really, tank.

Edited October 6, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[(PSN)ifihateyou]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But why do you wanna waste all that to buff up bladestorm? I mean you can just stack a decent amount of power stength, good efficiency and seeking shuriken and pretty much faceroll everything with your shurikens aswell as stealth damage melee. Bring some gas weapons along and nothing will be able to do anything. IMO Bladestorm is just a nice additional thing vs bosses (if they last long enough), for everything else it just slows down the kill speed.

And with maxed out efficiency neither shurikens or stealth cost anything.

 

Okay I don’t wanna explain Naramon mechanics but you can ramp up the damage with a lot of multipliers and sustain it for the whole mission without it resetting. And keep in mind, you can mark one person 3 times, then just do it again if they live afterward. With this in mind, you could easily get 100k damage (that goes through armor) on someone, with the scaling bleed proc (I think this also goes through armor), and just repeat if they survive. Idk who you’d be fighting that would survive, but Zenurik can’t really do this comfortably. Also, it’s not slow if you have a fast melee. Idk about you but I don’t ever use Ash with something as slow as Jay Kusar or whatever.

Tbh I don’t even know why you asked me that. You basically just asked me why I prefer a melee play style for a melee frame when I stated that I like to diversify my sh*t in this game (a game that preaches customization and freedom and what not). But hey 

Edited October 6, 2018 by (PS4)BEN_drowned__

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)BEN_drowned__:

Snip

Forget builds, just use Vitality+Rage/Hunter Adrenaline.

The hunter version works pretty well with kubrows... use a Huras to lower your need to actually cast invisibility. Trickery has the same effect.

Sentinels cover orbs of you join in on bladestorm for the entire area you teleport into.

It is kinda illogical to use rage on a frame that has means to avoid damage but believe me, it works out rather well for him if you're looking for oportunities to get damaged. Every fraction has mine type abilities you can run into, stray bullets are able to fill you up completely... not to mention that you won't be invisible at all times. His armor may be medicore as it is but his health pool is rather big, what's ideal for that kinda stuff.

That may sound like some weak excuse but ash is probably the closest to beeing a themical ninja in the entire game, not only because it is his theme but also cause of how well he works with a broad selection of gadgets and tools.

-Actually bother using them and it is gonna be unlikely that you'll suffer from anything, including energy.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Ventasis said:

Have you tried investing into an Arcane Energize set? It pretty much removes the need for Zenurik. 

Yeah with how common it's becoming prepare for a Nerf

[(PSN)ifihateyou]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Forget builds, just use Vitality+Rage/Hunter Adrenaline.

The hunter version works pretty well with kubrows... use a Huras to lower your need to actually cast invisibility. Trickery has the same effect.

Sentinels cover orbs of you join in on bladestorm for the entire area you teleport into.

It is kinda illogical to use rage on a frame that has means to avoid damage but believe me, it works out rather well for him if you're looking for oportunities to get damaged. Every fraction has mine type abilities you can run into, stray bullets are able to fill you up completely... not to mention that you won't be invisible at all times. His armor may be medicore as it is but his health pool is rather big, what's ideal for that kinda stuff.

That may sound like some weak excuse but ash is probably the closest to beeing a themical ninja in the entire game, not only because it is his theme but also cause of how well he works with a broad selection of gadgets and tools.

-Actually bother using them and it is gonna be unlikely that you'll suffer from anything, including energy.

Trust me, I have. For anything on the star chart, this works out just fine. I used to run the whole hunter set with an Adarza and I liked the results but I hated not having vacuum, so I just settle for a Shade nowadays. 

However, I don’t think it works out when everything is over a certain level. 

[Buttaface]

Ash was overnerfed. The BS BS mechanic should be abandoned for a single press cone effect, and then they should do that to all other radial AOE in the game as well. Ash is also one of those frames that needs far more team utility.

[ThatRoomba]

3 hours ago, (PS4)BEN_drowned__ said:

Oh sorry, I forgot to say this

 

1. I don’t have Arcane Energize but I’ll take it for the freeskie if anybody is feeling generous

2. I don’t use pads at all. The point of this post was for me to complain about how Ash isn’t self sufficient without Zenurik. Just look at Nekros. He doesn’t even need Zenurik and he can still spam whatever he wants. 

Then I don’t even think I have to get into the fact that those are consumables and aren’t even considered apart of the build. So nah, you can keep those pads @GnarlesDarkley

No one adheres to your arbitrary Code #2, so what is the point of this thread exactly? Hoping to commiserate with others that put themselves on a leash, too?

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

4 hours ago, (PS4)BEN_drowned__ said:

So the Nezha rework got me thinking about other frames.

 

So I use Ash a lot, and I’ve realized that his kit pisses me off, as it doesn’t work well with Solo play. Now when I say that, here’s what I mean. 

So for a focus school, Zenurik is obviously the best option if you want end game, as it’s the only way he can spam all his sh*t. Now I’d really like to be able to use Naramon, as it compliments his actual kit more than just giving him energy. Naramon + Bladestorm + Arcane Fury + Arcane Trickery/Strike is extremely powerful, but not worth using because this game sucks at energy distribution. And when I say that, I mean without Zenurik, there’s no way to keep your energy up at high levels, as rage wont cut it and we all know why (I hope y’all know why cuz I’m not saying it). So unless you’re a social butterfly who likes to play with Trinities and Harrows, then you can forget about doing anything cool with Ash that isn’t basic af.

This is an actual problem for someone who wants diverse builds (me), because Naramon is like a major building block for what I just explained. It does NOT have the same effect with Zenurik and that grinds my gears.

Now every melee frame doesn’t have this problem because a lot of them are tanky enough to throw rage on there, but Ash isn’t. At all. 

Now I want someone to disagree and tell me I suck, because I hate the fact that Zenurik is just a bandaid for the fact that this game is stingy as a mf with those energy balls. 

Now before anybody goes into full Clem mode trying to tell me how great their Ash build is, I don’t think he really sucks, but the game mechanics prevent him from being used to his full potential in Solo play, and that’s kinda bad for a “solo frame”, especially for people who like to play alone (me because I hate everything and everyone)

Ash isnt a solo frame... 

Edited October 6, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)BEN_drowned__:

Trust me, I have. For anything on the star chart, this works out just fine. I used to run the whole hunter set with an Adarza and I liked the results but I hated not having vacuum, so I just settle for a Shade nowadays. 

However, I don’t think it works out when everything is over a certain level. 

Meh, i play him quite frequently in all kinda stuff and i have yet to hit a actuall wall with him...

The damage you get is defined by levels just as much as quantity after all....there's few enemies with burst damage. Weeding out effectively and getting single instances is able to carry you quite a bit.

Of course you'd have to rely on something other then rage when going beyond that but that's where energice comes into play... 

And if you really want to play zenurik, stack combo mods on a dagger.

Things may change for the better with melee 3.0 too so let's just wait where that's gonna lead us.

Edited October 6, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)ifihateyou]

2 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Ash isnt a solo frame... 

Yeah tell me all about that team support he don’t got 👍🏽

[(PSN)ifihateyou]

2 hours ago, Fonk said:

No one adheres to your arbitrary Code #2, so what is the point of this thread exactly? Hoping to commiserate with others that put themselves on a leash, too?

If you could read, the point is to be self sufficient (that means no consumables or team mates or anything that’s not a direct part of the build. Do you understand?) but if you wanna be a b*tch about it because you didn’t wanna read, then I guess that’s fine 🤷🏽‍♂️

[Duality52]

If you keep running out of energy with Ash, then you're not using your abilities conservatively. Instead, balance the usage between abilities and weapons the best you can. Ash is still very capable of fighting even without the constant Smoke Screen/Bladestorm.

Also, Bladestorm has a synergy with Smoke Screen where the marking cost gets reduces by half.

1 hour ago, (PS4)BEN_drowned__ said:

If you could read, the point is to be self sufficient (that means no consumables or team mates or anything that’s not a direct part of the build. Do you understand?) but if you wanna be a b*tch about it because you didn’t wanna read, then I guess that’s fine 🤷🏽‍♂️

Just because you're posting on the Forums, doesn't mean you should argue in a condescending and insulting tone. Constructive criticism will have the relatively the same or more of an effect than just bashing and insulting (still depends on certain circumstances).

[Spac3Ac3]

Sorry ash does not suck. All of his specials work perfectly and he can clear rooms. He is just different than your play style and other frames have other uses. His Armor stripping augment is really good. his one shot kill teleport is awesome. His four is great and invisibility is just a top notch ability. He can go deep into high level game play. So why does he suck? 

Because of a school choice? There are options for that. Some suggested getting Arcane energize but you don't want that either. 

From my experience Every single frame has holes in its defense or some thing is missing from it. Our job as players is to plug up those problems with builds. 
Not every single frame is going to fit your play style and asking DE to change the rules of the game is kind of silly just because you want to build it differently then the game allows.

Good Luck with trying to figure out the build though. I wish you luck.

 

 

[(PSN)ifihateyou]

11 hours ago, Spac3Ac3 said:

Sorry ash does not suck. All of his specials work perfectly and he can clear rooms. He is just different than your play style and other frames have other uses. His Armor stripping augment is really good. his one shot kill teleport is awesome. His four is great and invisibility is just a top notch ability. He can go deep into high level game play. So why does he suck? 

Because of a school choice? There are options for that. Some suggested getting Arcane energize but you don't want that either. 

From my experience Every single frame has holes in its defense or some thing is missing from it. Our job as players is to plug up those problems with builds. 
Not every single frame is going to fit your play style and asking DE to change the rules of the game is kind of silly just because you want to build it differently then the game allows.

Good Luck with trying to figure out the build though. I wish you luck.

 

 

 

The last thing I said in the first post was that the title was indeed not the truth. All im saying is that Naramon compliments his kit way more, but due to game mechanics, it isn’t the best for playing alone without the use of any consumables. 

Im aware of the smoke bomb synergy, but there’s no way to balance his duration and power strength to any degree that’s worth it. 20 seconds of invisibility will result in way less power strength or almost no range (which is worse imo). Also, do you really think the efficiency while being invisible balances out with the amount of energy you get? I mean I don’t but I’ll accept being wrong if I see some facts. 

Also, the thing about Arcane Energize, is that it takes up an arcane slot, which could be dedicated to more invisibility or attack speed, so I don’t see that as a “go to answer”. 

 

[(PSN)ifihateyou]

14 hours ago, Duality52 said:

If you keep running out of energy with Ash, then you're not using your abilities conservatively. Instead, balance the usage between abilities and weapons the best you can. Ash is still very capable of fighting even without the constant Smoke Screen/Bladestorm.

Also, Bladestorm has a synergy with Smoke Screen where the marking cost gets reduces by half.

Just because you're posting on the Forums, doesn't mean you should argue in a condescending and insulting tone. Constructive criticism will have the relatively the same or more of an effect than just bashing and insulting (still depends on certain circumstances).

The running out of energy is more of an issue over a certain amount of time. It’s not that I’m running out of it immediately. Also, blade storm is like a gun that adds on to your combo counter, so spamming it every now and then isn’t too hard to believe, especially earlier in the mission, as that’s when I’m trying to get the counter up as fast as possible 

I do understand what you said about arguing, but um... I don’t take it too well when people attempt to make me look dumb. No exceptions. Leaving it at that. 

 

[Spac3Ac3]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)BEN_drowned__ said:

 

The last thing I said in the first post was that the title was indeed not the truth. All im saying is that Naramon compliments his kit way more, but due to game mechanics, it isn’t the best for playing alone without the use of any consumables. 

Im aware of the smoke bomb synergy, but there’s no way to balance his duration and power strength to any degree that’s worth it. 20 seconds of invisibility will result in way less power strength or almost no range (which is worse imo). Also, do you really think the efficiency while being invisible balances out with the amount of energy you get? I mean I don’t but I’ll accept being wrong if I see some facts. 

Also, the thing about Arcane Energize, is that it takes up an arcane slot, which could be dedicated to more invisibility or attack speed, so I don’t see that as a “go to answer”. 

 

Right and the problem is with him that he runs out of energy and that is why Zenurik synergies with him better to plug up a problem he has. Problem solved. Your argument is that of someone that is wishful of having a more powerful focus with out drawbacks so you can just be overpowered. I get that... but there has to be checks and balances. Each frame has holes in their kit. And again, the way to plug up the hole is with Zenurik. Its in its design... Yes he would be real nice with naramon. I want that too but its not in the game design. Asking for it as if something is wrong with the frame is just not a good argument to have. 

Just saying, Ash is my favorite frame because he is the closest to being a ninja. I use Bow, Umbra Skiajati and Hikou prime and i still wreck with him. While others get better weapons to synergize with. Yes your correct Naramon is better for his kit. But there is the draw back of energy. But its not in the design. I hope you find a way. 

[ThatRoomba]

Power pad

Focus school

Mod better

Syndicate power procs

"Git gud"

OR

Arbitrarily refuse to use 1 or 2, and ignore all the feedback describing 3-5.

 

But sure, accuse me of being the b*tch here.

In all seriousness I have no idea how anyone has power troubles with Ash.

[Absens]

I believe frames with useless 4's should be looked at. And ash is one of those.

I mean picking all the enemies after you press 4 is really really bad. I can just shoot them instead of using the 4.

 

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, Absens said:

I believe frames with useless 4's should be looked at. And ash is one of those.

I mean picking all the enemies after you press 4 is really really bad. I can just shoot them instead of using the 4.

 

blade storm is a situation power. most of the frame powers in warframe are situation. people have a problem with understanding the situation they are in and applying power usage accordingly. this is what happens when you have frames that have power spam or people who want instant death from any damage powers.

his passive and smoke bomb are things people should consider when fighting and deciding when to use powers. you dont need to have blade storm be spammable. if you can kill an enemy with a weapon there is no need to use it in the first place.

one of the reasons i hate enemy lvl type difficulty modifiers is that they dont account for actual player strength. limbo is a frame whose CC is so strong it isnt even necessary until enmies become problematic which could be at lvl 150 or 200.

[Nazrethim]

En 6/10/2018 a las 16:50, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

Forget builds, just use Vitality+Rage/Hunter Adrenaline.

The hunter version works pretty well with kubrows... use a Huras to lower your need to actually cast invisibility. Trickery has the same effect.

Sentinels cover orbs of you join in on bladestorm for the entire area you teleport into.

It is kinda illogical to use rage on a frame that has means to avoid damage but believe me, it works out rather well for him if you're looking for oportunities to get damaged. Every fraction has mine type abilities you can run into, stray bullets are able to fill you up completely... not to mention that you won't be invisible at all times. His armor may be medicore as it is but his health pool is rather big, what's ideal for that kinda stuff.

That may sound like some weak excuse but ash is probably the closest to beeing a themical ninja in the entire game, not only because it is his theme but also cause of how well he works with a broad selection of gadgets and tools.

-Actually bother using them and it is gonna be unlikely that you'll suffer from anything, including energy.

I agree on this. Throw in the Umbral mods and he can take a few punchs regularly from high level enemies. It also compliments melee playstyle as you can use block to tank some damage and refill energy.
And if you have the healer kubrow mod you are pretty much inmortal.

 

En 6/10/2018 a las 17:49, Buttaface dijo:

Ash was overnerfed. The BS BS mechanic should be abandoned for a single press cone effect, and then they should do that to all other radial AOE in the game as well. Ash is also one of those frames that needs far more team utility.

Wrong. What needs to be done to Radial AoE is actually change how Power Range affects them, increasing Area and not Radius.

En 6/10/2018 a las 19:30, (PS4)big_eviljak dijo:

Ash isnt a solo frame... 

Actually, Ash brings next to jacksquat to teams, and his power only shines in Solo mode because his mass murder tool is slower than your weapons. By the time it starts outkilling allies you are already on broken levels and likely to extract unless you are in a team of endurance enthusiasts

 

En 6/10/2018 a las 20:02, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

 

Things may change for the better with melee 3.0 too so let's just wait where that's gonna lead us.

 

Or for the worse, we don't know if the new combo mechanic will work on Blade Storm, if it doesn't it would be a titanical nerf as it would kill BS scaling entirely.

En 6/10/2018 a las 23:35, Duality52 dijo:

 

Also, Bladestorm has a synergy with Smoke Screen where the marking cost gets reduces by half.

That's not really synergy, as it forces you to use some invisibility to cheapen a broken cost. You know what would be better? If BS had the 6e cost by default, and it's synergy with invisibility consisted of making the clones invisible during the attack, so you don't alert the whole planet if you go for stealth.

 

En 7/10/2018 a las 1:59, Spac3Ac3 dijo:

1)  All of his specials work perfectly and he can clear rooms. 

2) His Armor stripping augment is really good.

3) his one shot kill teleport is awesome.

4) His four is great and invisibility is just a top notch ability.

5) He can go deep into high level game play. So why does he suck? 

 

1) Not really. Take him to an Onslaught and he will hardly get past wave 4 or 5 without a Primed range melee or an AoE gun. He is an assassin, except the game has little for that, and high priority targets (assassins, bosses) are inmune to Ash's abilities.

2) This one is correct, though limited to small crowds unless you stack the very broken Efficiency stat or some infinite energy generator like Arcane Energize (which is also broken btw)

3) Indeed it is. So much you need it for the ability to be worth using in general, as the finisher opening is generally ignored by high priority targets.

4) His 4 is actually the weakest link due to it's mechanics. High damage doesn't make up for that. The ability would be better if it marked quickly or attacked everything at once. Either marking phase needs to be changed to not require spasms or execution should be sped up a lot. And invisibility is meh at best compared to others.

5) High levels are not actually encouraged beyond the daily Sortie.

Let's sum up:

His 2 should create a lingering CC cloud, not just give a stagger and call it a day.

His 3 should execute by default, as well as allow it's use on any object or surface (perhaps change it to resemble a much faster Operator Void Dash without enemy go-trough and more range?)

His 4 should cost 6 by default, as I said in an earlier response.

His Smoke Shadow Augment should apply to the already mentioned lingering cloud, allowing allies to enter to get a lingering invisibility.

His 3rd augment should replace the standard Finisher for the BS finisher animations.

His 4th augment is flat out useless. Should instead increase the marking reticle as you mark enemies (like a reverse peacemaker, the more you mark the easier to mark more) and boost damage by 10% for each mark spent (so the more you mark the more it ramps up) with both bonus reseting once the ability ends (thus creating a cycle and also fitting for the name "Rising Storm")

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

Or for the worse, we don't know if the new combo mechanic will work on Blade Storm, if it doesn't it would be a titanical nerf as it would kill BS scaling entirely.

True, but from what i know they'll likely free combo decay from naramon and make it an universal melee mechanic. Not to mention the faster multiplier gain they've spoilered..

If that's really the case then it would free ash from the naramon requirement and make both melee and gunplay possible and the scaling faster on both playstyles.

DE tends to throw great concepts out of the window for the sake of balancing or whatever though (see wukong for reference) so it most definitly depends on theyr final decision.

Edited October 9, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108